It's all in the title folks. This dungeon is going to be the sample for my patreon, and I will be the first to admit that I am a rank amateur at making a presentable, gameable thing.

But I've been a GM for years and I'm pretty confident that I can make a dungeon a month.

So, in exchange for some criticism, here is a free dungeon, made for use with ACKS but broadly compatible with any OSR

To give you some idea of the direction I was grasping for, here are some notes:

1. It is missing the rumors chart and adventure hooks in this draft. That is because I stayed up all night finishing the key and I am tired. They will be added to complete its utility.

2. It is OSR/BECMI compatible, but has not been upgraded to be fully compatible with 5th edition D&D yet. This will also be done, given time.

3. This dungeon is meant as an introductory adventure. It adopts the OSR mindset of level-neutrality in that, aside from a general power curve around 5 HD, there is no thought given to encounters being "level appropriate". Daring this dungeon should be done with caution, every time, by everyone.

4. I have a copy of deities and demigods, which when filtered through the strange genius on exhibit in this article, spawned this dungeon. I hope you like Celtic Deities.

5. Wow I am really tired.

6. I have never done anything in publisher before. I kind of hate it. I had to resort to drawing the map in bloody ms paint. If anybody has any helpful pointers for better mapping or how to wrangle publisher to not be a jackass, I would very much appreciate it.

7. As a GM, I am a bit of a Monty Haul. There is a lot of treasure in this thing. Most of it is balanced by a horrible drawback, but your characters stand to gain a lot by risking this dungeon. You've been warned.



Thanks as always for your time and consideration.

Gave it a quick read so I apologize in advance if I missed something.

Map's kind of linear and the encounters are fairly bread and butter, but it strikes me as a solid "lair of the scary monster" type dungeon, of the sort you'd drop in a point crawl and players could clear in a single session. Not bad.

The Celtic Gods are neither here nor there; you could substitute them for Greek gods or Persian gods or the Greyhawk pantheon and the impact on the adventure would be minimal. Not necessarily a flaw.

Oh, and a sword that does double/quadruple damage sounds a bit OP, even against the cost of escalation. I'd put something else at II (maybe a low-level spell-like power?) and IV (up the bonus to +3?).

Butcher, thank you for the feedback! I hope the following gives you some food for though!

Some of the thought and effort that went into this dungeon

1. The Jaquays technique (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13085/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon)

This series of articles inspired the nonlinear layout of the dungeon.

There are multiple entrances to every level, allowing players to explore the dungeon in a unique way each time they encounter it.
Also, as you guys can see here (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaD16z1FQGeKmdCyqxdjvdu7h7pJTnSXE) (if you've got a few hours) the dungeon plays different depending on how it is approached. This is one of the coolest things offered by the Jaquays technique.

Removing the linearity of the dungeon means that there is no set "encounter path": the story and history of the dungeon is learned holistically as it is explored. Each room and level reveals a little more.
The dungeon reveals itself through play( http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2011/03/how-i-want-to-hear-about-your-setting.html ). When you crawl through this ancient, monster-infested church, the nature of it sinks into your bones.

You don't just encounter an ogre: you encounter a Fomor. Rather than attacking, he engages you with an impossibly cultured voice, constructing a case for his loathing of the gods.
You don't just find a magic item: You find a Tathlum, made from the head of an ancient bloodline's kin.
You don't just see a painting of Arawn, the god of death: the skeletons in this room see it to, and they're spellbound.

2. Get some mileage out of the Deities and Demigods (http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2012/10/deities-and-demigods-is-totally-book.html)

That blog post really inspired me to take another look at Deities & Demigods. Thumbing through it, I realized just how gameable its contents were.

The unique features in rooms, most of the items, enemies, wolves, waterfalls, statues with hideous faces: all of it comes from the Celtic God's section of that book.
Like, did you know what a tathlum is? Because I didn't. But now I'm glad I do!

3. Something cool in every room

No article link for this one, because I can't find the quote that inspired it (drat)

But the basic idea is this: if a room is in this dungeon there has to be something cool in it.

Just to throw out a single example: there is a stone pair of hands that crushes anything placed between them to powder. There is another room where 3K GP's worth of gold is sitting on the floor but oops: it's cursed, and turns into flesh-eating scarabs every night.

My players took the cursed gold and crushed it with the giant hands: bam, 3K's worth of gold dust. Brilliant

And I didn't design that. I would never have thought of it. Players are rewarded for being imaginative and combining the unique features of the dungeon in unexpected ways.

4. More than one thing going on (http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2011/03/zaks-ez-adventure-making-chart_30.html )

The core of this dungeon looked a little like this when I started:
Chaos sorcerer/Cursed sword/ Troll/ Magic healing fountain/ Ghost

Then I used the technique outlined in the linked article to define all of these element's relationship to each other. For example:
Chaos sorcerer: Covets the cursed sword, controls the troll by bribing it with the water from the magic healing fountain, which he manipulates. Fears the ghost, which guards the sword (like a ringwraith, because those are the best ghosts)

The Fomor came in at a later design stage, when I was trying to give the dungeon rival factions. But he fits really well (Like, it makes sense that he can't overcome the sorcerer's troll despite his fire attack, because it's not possible for it to do enough damage to slay the troll. But his power is enough that the sorcerer wouldn't just attack him outright)

That final level with the wraith is creepy as hell too. It's the deepest layer, and it's cramped, and you're alone. And all of the entries to the hero's tomb are ominous (and if you're smart, you'll realize that they're keeping the wraith trapped in his grave!)
This kind of churning factions/rivalry angle is pretty forgiving on players, because they can stack factions against each other and loot the place in the chaos.

5. Everything seems hostile
 
Nearly every single room has a feature (or an environment) which could house a trap. Or be cursed. Or have consequences if it's screwed with.

The big rocks blocking the doors on level 1? If you move those, then the goblins raiding from the northern mountains will have two ways to harass the troll. The rock by the stairway is discouraging the Fomor from continuing his war with the Chaos sorcerer.

This dungeon is silly with ancient, blood-streaked statues. Adventurers have to balance their curiosity (or good intentions) against the very plausible possibility that interacting with these statues can call down the wrath of the gods (Don't mess with those stone pillars of Dunatis, you could cause a landslide!)

Again, speaking from experience (and you can watch this on our playthrough) this makes the dungeon a place that players tend to crawl inch by inch, which gives it a great table presence.

6. More stuff

But frankly that's enough bragging for now. Trust me in that a lot of thought and careful construction went into giving this thing a reason to be at your table!

I read through half. Not bad, definitely like the conflicts within, but I wonder how they may reveal in play. I love the scarab coins.

I'm confused on the time frame. I would think lots more desecration would have happened if those forces have been there a while.  How long have each of the groups been there? Did the Troll eat the clerics of the church? Who's he eating these days?

Quote from: Spinachcat;923023I read through half. Not bad, definitely like the conflicts within, but I wonder how they may reveal in play. I love the scarab coins.

I'm confused on the time frame. I would think lots more desecration would have happened if those forces have been there a while.  How long have each of the groups been there? Did the Troll eat the clerics of the church? Who's he eating these days?

Thanks for the feedback Spina! To answer your q's: The timeframe is that, this is the first of about.... I'd guess three? Generations of wandering monsters that have been invading the dungeon. The only party really interested in "desecrating" things is the Fomor (since his race hates, hates the Celtic gods!). The Troll doesn't care, the goblins are too superstitious, and the chaos sorcerer isn't certain which parts of the church are necessary for the coveted fountain to function (which is why he's so keen on keeping that Fomor contained!).

The desecration on the second level is supposed to reflect the efforts of the Fomor alone. Of course, the sealed and hideously haunted 3rd level is because of that wraith and the cursed sword.

As far as the Troll's dietary needs: I like to think he''s a recent addition. His staple diet is almost certainly goblins, mixed with animals he can catch form the nearby forests. I like to think when parties die in the dungeon they provide a rare and welcome treat for him :-)

I'm going to add a version of this explanation to the dungeon on my next editing pass. Thanks so much again!

Part of asking for criticism is
1. Actually reading the criticism.
2. Understanding what the criticism is telling you.

Butcher told you the map seemed kind of linear to him, you responded with all this crap about how non-linear your dungeon is, dropping links, names and techniques any regular has probably heard.

Instead of telling him how Jaquaysian you are, how about read the sentence and realize he's telling you that despite your bibliography, the map was kind of linear.  Let me help out...

"Butcher, I tried to specifically make the map non-linear following the classic examples of Jaquays dungeons.   In what way did you think it was linear, do you have any specifics?"

Quote from: CRKrueger;923599Part of asking for criticism is
1. Actually reading the criticism.
2. Understanding what the criticism is telling you.

Butcher told you the map seemed kind of linear to him, you responded with all this crap about how non-linear your dungeon is, dropping links, names and techniques any regular has probably heard.

Instead of telling him how Jaquaysian you are, how about read the sentence and realize he's telling you that despite your bibliography, the map was kind of linear.  Let me help out...

"Butcher, I tried to specifically make the map non-linear following the classic examples of Jaquays dungeons.   In what way did you think it was linear, do you have any specifics?"

Not Gonna lie CK. That was an emotional gut punch.

I don't really have the thickest skin on the best of weeks. This? Not been the best of weeks. Not your problem, don't want it to be, just giving some context.

It's hard to commit to doing something like this. Because even sans whoring it to every damn site I can think of, I would be opening my stuff to criticism.

And that's tough. Because I pored over those articles (not an old hand: I'm new to the OSR and it's just caught me, ya know?). I don't have any gauge for how insulting or lame, or whatever, dropping those links is. They were news to me. This is my first outing, my big debut (such as that is), and I wanted to make sure I was giving everybody context for these things. Giving them some background of where I was and what my goals were.

And here's the thing: thank you. Thank you for this. You're 100% and unquestionably correct. I came off like a condescending, fast-talking windbag.

So Butcher, clue me in man: What's linear in there? What can I spruce up? I'm gearing up for my second pass, and damn folks I could use all the good advice you can spare.

Everybody: thanks. I really do appreciate this.

As a DM, one thing I always look for in a "dungeon" module is an intro that quickly tells me the Level(s) of characters it was designed for, and roughly how many characters should attempt that module. That helps me to determine if I can easily fit it into my campaign, or whether I will have to spend some time tweaking it so that it will present a challenge to a party without leading to a Total Party Kill.

Of course, if it is still a work in progress, I reckon you can add that sort of intro to it.

-- Rusty DM

Azraele, please stick around and contribute more. Your attitude is refreshing. I am more than happy to help when I know the poster is open to ideas.

If you can, try to get a GM you know to run the dungeon for their group. Either play in the dungeon (mute henchmen?) or sit, watch, squirm and take notes. I've done that and...it sometimes generates great feedback.

Debriefing players about what they liked or didn't like is good too, but its better to gauge their reactions during actual play.

Overall, I feel the Celtic myth aspect is tacked on, and not organic to the adventure. Maybe I missed something, but if the temple is Celtic, there should be the influence of their gods and myths in the area, especially in the descriptions of the atmosphere of the locations. AKA, there should be a Celtic FEEL to the place that is markedly different than if the temple had been to Greek gods.

I know you put some. I want MUCH more. Smother me in Celtic sauce.

I run a lot of CoC, so when a particular god is involved, I like to give PCs harbingers. Cthulhu is trapped under the ocean in his non-Euclidean city prison. Thus, if Big C is behind this cult, victims are drowned, dreams will be about wandering ancient cities, cultists may even wear broken chains or other emblems reflecting their desire to "free" Cthulhu. All this is different than if they are dealing with a cult of Ithaqua who is all about ice, cold, flight, dragon servitors and cannibals.

BTW, Jennell Jaquays is a backer of the new Conan boardgame by Monolith. I saw Jennell post in the Kickstarter update comment section yesterday.

Quote from: RustyDM;924086As a DM, one thing I always look for in a "dungeon" module is an intro that quickly tells me the Level(s) of characters it was designed for, and roughly how many characters should attempt that module. That helps me to determine if I can easily fit it into my campaign, or whether I will have to spend some time tweaking it so that it will present a challenge to a party without leading to a Total Party Kill.
Of course, if it is still a work in progress, I reckon you can add that sort of intro to it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;924243Azraele, please stick around and contribute more. Your attitude is refreshing. I am more than happy to help when I know the poster is open to ideas.
If you can, try to get a GM you know to run the dungeon for their group. Either play in the dungeon (mute henchmen?) or sit, watch, squirm and take notes. I've done that and...it sometimes generates great feedback.
Debriefing players about what they liked or didn't like is good too, but its better to gauge their reactions during actual play.
Overall, I feel the Celtic myth aspect is tacked on, and not organic to the adventure. Maybe I missed something, but if the temple is Celtic, there should be the influence of their gods and myths in the area, especially in the descriptions of the atmosphere of the locations. AKA, there should be a Celtic FEEL to the place that is markedly different than if the temple had been to Greek gods.
I know you put some. I want MUCH more. Smother me in Celtic sauce.
I run a lot of CoC, so when a particular god is involved, I like to give PCs harbingers. Cthulhu is trapped under the ocean in his non-Euclidean city prison. Thus, if Big C is behind this cult, victims are drowned, dreams will be about wandering ancient cities, cultists may even wear broken chains or other emblems reflecting their desire to "free" Cthulhu. All this is different than if they are dealing with a cult of Ithaqua who is all about ice, cold, flight, dragon servitors and cannibals.
BTW, Jennell Jaquays is a backer of the new Conan boardgame by Monolith. I saw Jennell post in the Kickstarter update comment section yesterday.

1: Holy Shit, gonna have to check out that Jennell Jaquays post!
2: I'm not going anywhere! I've just been taking a social media break while I fix up my Patreon (kind of a mess right now) and work on the next dungeon.
3: I am actually waiting on some feedback from playest groups on it. My secondary test group (after mine of course) is breaking for a few weeks, but when they get back they should be giving me a play report. Those guys are invaluable to making gameable stuff!
4: I've gotten the feedback on needing a level guide twice now, so its got to go in the next draft. Stay tuned!
5: Drench in Celtic Myth? I can do that! It should be a simple matter to deepen the description of the rooms, add some more Celtic flavor to the baddies (goblins, skeletons, evil wizards and trolls are a bit "vanilla", I bet I could bring them up to par with the Fomor if I set my sights on it) and generally fill it out so that it brims with Celtic mythos.
6: I've been compiling feedback for the dungeon from a few sources. I'm actually very worried about the purported linearity and I want to address it before I do the next draft. What I might do is emphasize some of the weirder paths through the dungeon (like scaling down the waterfall or entering through the wolves' cave) so that the elements that were designed as nonlinear are brought more to the forefront.
7: This is still a WiP. Currently its next draft is in the lurch pending my castelvania dungeon being drawn up. Once I get that dungeon done though, this thing is next for a re-write!
Thanks as always everybody for the helpful criticisms and feedback!

If you map out your first level in a flow map it looks like this

[ATTACH]513[/ATTACH]


Except for 2-4-5 it is linear unless you find the secret doors and even then it is mostly linear.  

In addition, that the walls are really just lines doesn't help.  I know old school blue tint dungeons often had this but not the best one.  Walls are thick, often many feet thick.  Look at plans for castles and ancient ruins.

If you spread the rooms out with thicker walls it may spur your creativity to add in more non-linear connections.  If you run out of room, think of adding a sub-level that interconnects.  It may have served a function at one point such as drainage, heating, etc.

Quote from: Xanther;929096If you map out your first level in a flow map it looks like this

[ATTACH]513[/ATTACH]


Except for 2-4-5 it is linear unless you find the secret doors and even then it is mostly linear.  

In addition, that the walls are really just lines doesn't help.  I know old school blue tint dungeons often had this but not the best one.  Walls are thick, often many feet thick.  Look at plans for castles and ancient ruins.

If you spread the rooms out with thicker walls it may spur your creativity to add in more non-linear connections.  If you run out of room, think of adding a sub-level that interconnects.  It may have served a function at one point such as drainage, heating, etc.

Huh, you know I missed this but, there was supposed to be another door at the north end of 7. That helps the first level a bit.

The lower levels are extremely linear judging by your method. Hmm, good to note.

Okay, looks like I've got to up my game some more!

You're in good company, there are plenty of commercial dungeons with primarily linear flow.  The idea of these kinds of maps is not mine. The first place I saw it is here:
http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/dungeonmaps.html

Melan maps many well known modules.   I forgot if Melan did Caverns of Thracia, to me the Caverns of Thracia is at the pinnacle of non-linear dungeon design.

A good way to easily up your design is to use the abstract map to connect rooms then draw.

Another great place to get some design ideas:

http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13085/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon

Quote from: Xanther;936636You're in good company, there are plenty of commercial dungeons with primarily linear flow.  The idea of these kinds of maps is not mine. The first place I saw it is here:
http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/dungeonmaps.html

Melan maps many well known modules.   I forgot if Melan did Caverns of Thracia, to me the Caverns of Thracia is at the pinnacle of non-linear dungeon design.

A good way to easily up your design is to use the abstract map to connect rooms then draw.

Starting with the simpler model and then adding complexity afterward: brilliant!

I know what I'm practicing today!