I have a campaign setting brewing in the back burner.  I generally dislike metaphor in fantasy worlds, but I can't think of a better way to express the setting: A pan-continental super republic held together by a magically enhanced autocrat.  Say, 8 million square miles tentatively.  It is new territory for me, so I thought I'd express some questions to the worldbuilders here...

1) I'm no historian.  Is there a pre-modern political state that covers such a wide area that I could use for inspiration?  Politically and economically.  With the introduction of magic, communication probably becomes easier, but I'm sure there are complications I'm not thinking of when dealing with so large a state.

2) Excluding non-humans, how many human ethnic groups would/could exist in such a large area?  Language groups?

3) How do you predict weather over such sweeping tracts of land?  I mean, as a layperson, I have a pretty good grasp on ocean currents and impact on small landmasses, plates, etc.  But this is bigger than I've ever grappled with before.

Quote from: winkingbishop;371021I have a campaign setting brewing in the back burner.  I generally dislike metaphor in fantasy worlds, but I can't think of a better way to express the setting: A pan-continental super republic held together by a magically enhanced autocrat.  Say, 8 million square miles tentatively.  It is new territory for me, so I thought I'd express some questions to the worldbuilders here...

1) I'm no historian.  Is there a pre-modern political state that covers such a wide area that I could use for inspiration?  Politically and economically.  With the introduction of magic, communication probably becomes easier, but I'm sure there are complications I'm not thinking of when dealing with so large a state.

How about the Roman Republic or Augustan Empire, or the very short-lived conquests of Alexander the Great? He was supposed to be the son of a God, after all.

Quote from: winkingbishop;3710212) Excluding non-humans, how many human ethnic groups would/could exist in such a large area?  Language groups?

Many. A lot. Now, to answer precisely, you'd need to think about the original ethnic groups that came to various parts of the areas and how they interacted over time. A bit like Indo-europeans, Asia, then America... etc. See what I mean?

But then again, we're talking about Magical world, right? So anything could have happened, in terms of anthropology, evolutions of cultures and societies, and relations between ethnicities. Maybe some wizard transmuted several ethnicities into slaves for his Empire, which resulted in a new race of blood-red, skinless warriors on something? Who knows?

Quote from: winkingbishop;3710213) How do you predict weather over such sweeping tracts of land?  I mean, as a layperson, I have a pretty good grasp on ocean currents and impact on small landmasses, plates, etc.  But this is bigger than I've ever grappled with before.

Try to find a high school grade manual of the fundamentals of Climatology. I kid you not. I am reorganizing a school library right now. You could not BELIEVE the gems you find in there to fuel game ideas. Plus, the high school format presents the advantage of being just fleshed out enough to present useful information while at the same time being clear and concise enough for you to use in a game without getting lost in tons of nitpicky data points and nuances that ultimately won't matter for your world-building exercise.

Rome at its greatest extent was somewhere between 2 and 3 million square miles, not including the Mediterranean Sea. The fact that much of it bordered on the sea probably helped with communications. Of course the Romans also had their roads.

According to Wikipedia's list of the largest empires, Qing (Manchu) China was about 5.7 million square miles. (Modern China is somewhat smaller, mostly because Mongolia is independent.

Really the only premodern empire to rival the USSR was the Mongol empire, at least 9.2 million square miles--and occupying similar stretches of territory. But although the Mongols had some ability at long-distance control & communication, their empire was still fairly unstable, devolving rapidly into a semi-confederacy and then into rival khanates within a couple generations.

Note that large portions of both the USSR and the Mongol empire are sparsely populated--effectively a "land ocean". E.g. http://www.catsg.org/cheetah/07_map-centre/7_1_entire-range/thematic-maps/global_population_density.jpg

Alright, so I have a functional doodle of my speculative fantasy continent.  I guess when I said earlier that it was pan-continental, I was wrong.  But it's still pretty damn big.  The area is probably bigger than I've ever tackled before, so I'm requesting some assistance.

First, map:  

I would appreciate some help getting my head around the probable climate over so large an area.  The landmass is 9 million square miles.  For the sake of argument, say it's 3200 miles on the horizontal.

You'll notice that the continent is in the northern hemisphere and I superimposed the climate band image provided by Bat in the Attic.

If it is helpful to see a more slimmed down map (ignore the "forest" layer, I was only practicing execution):

The mountain chains in the south and northwest are "new" mountains.  That is, assuming my planet has tectonic plates, those are current pressure zones.  The other chains are "old," rugged, an artifact of distant geologic events.  The mountains I dashed about the sea seem a bit troublesome to me, but I'm not opposed to blaming them on massive meteor strikes if no one else can explain them.  

Assuming a fairly Earth-like world:

How big is my planet compared to Earth?
Where is my moisture coming from?  Where are wet and dry areas?
Any major geography stand out that is out of place?
Anything else I should know or think about?

So that's what the map is for! I didn't make the connection. Silly me.

Also:

Quote from: winkingbishop;371274You'll notice that the continent is in the northern hemisphere and I superimposed the climate band image provided by Bat in the Attic.

Wow. That's an awesome blog entry right there.

Quote from: Benoist;371279So that's what the map is for! I didn't make the connection. Silly me.

I started the mapmaking thread in isolation - I like to make maps and I didn't know I'd need a new one soon.  I sincerely wanted to see other folks' efforts.

However, I recently found myself needing a new campaign area/theme.  This continent is on the same planet as my players, but it will (hopefully) better accommodate our needs.  Take a hard look to the west and you'll see some other landmasses involved in a magical industrial revolution of sorts.  Fun for awhile, but too niche for me in the long run.  I want to take my players back to basics, pretty close to RAW D&D when we start our new game.  I've been hinting at this other continent for awhile, but it's time to bring it to life.

Quote from: Benoist;371279Wow. That's an awesome blog entry right there.

Yeah, I dig it.  estar knows a thing or two about this stuff, so I'd rather solicit info from thinking beings than wait until I get my hands back on my Worldbuilder's Guidebook (yeah, I'll admit it, it's in my parents' basement.  I'll see them this weekend, but I wanna work now!).

A couple of question first

what latitude is the north edge your map (or south edge). And how big is it from north to south?

Quote from: winkingbishop;371301So, please, reply to my other thread but also tell us on this one how you made your maps.  I'm curious about the yellow bits that surround your settlements.  Are those considered settled/farmland/safe zones?

They are farmland and mark the zone of intense cultivation generally the limits of civilization. look at this http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm. Particularly on how to calculate an area of a hex. Then from the population you should be able to calculate the amount of cultivated acres needed to support it. Then just set aside that much cultivated land in your mapping.

As for markets, the local market is generally a half day travel or about 12.5 miles away from the settlements or farm that use it. This there is hierarchy of trade from the market village, to the towns, then cities and finally the metropolis (think Rome, Baghdad, Cordova, or Constantinople). The lower levels feed into the higher level in a web network. GURPS Fantasy has a good diagram on Page 94.

If you want the detail in a gamable form then all these three are useful

Harnmanor by Columbia Games
A Magical Medieval Society by Expeditious Retreat Press.
A MMS: Silk Road by Expeditious Retreat Press.

You can PDF from RPGNow or buy the books.

Make sure you get the Second edition of MMS it has a nearly all blue cover.

Quote from: estar;371313A couple of question first

what latitude is the north edge your map (or south edge). And how big is it from north to south?

The whole shebang.  I slapped your climate bands image over my map, but maybe it didn't show up, for whatever reason.  I'll repost it in full size:



As for dimension, loosely,  I think 3200 x 2800 (W x H) miles is what shows up on the map.

As for Magical Medieval Society, I always sort of wanted it... never wanted to fork over the cash.  If you want to elaborate on your endorsement, I think I could be compelled to order.  I like books made out of dead trees.  Is this the one? Link to MMS: WE soft cover.  Does it go beyond World Builder's Guidebook (TSR/AD&D)?

Quote from: winkingbishop;371316As for Magical Medieval Society, I always sort of wanted it... never wanted to fork over the cash.  If you want to elaborate on your endorsement, I think I could be compelled to order.  I like books made out of dead trees.  Is this the one? Link to MMS: WE soft cover.  Does it go beyond World Builder's Guidebook (TSR/AD&D)?

They are not quite the same thing. The Magical Medieval Society covers the nuts and bolts of making a Medieval Society i.e. the people and the society they exist in. Silk Road covers trade and Harnmanor covers the nuts and bolts of a medieval village.

I would go with MMS first then Silk Road then maybe later HarnManor.  From what I understand of World's Builders it only goes into a certain level of detail and that it.

So anyway here how I would call your climates for your map.




The north-south mountain range on the northwest edge is going to block the westerly flow creating a rain shadow to the east. The coastal strip is going to be very wet pacific northwest type of wet. A lot of rain there.

Further south you got a longer Mediterranean. The northern coast is going to be lot like Italy, Greek and the Balkans. The mountain range to the east cuts of a lot of rain that otherwise would make it much more green. The further north you get the drier you get given a region like the Americian Midwest or the Russian Steppes. Finally you hit the Taiga.  The whole northern region is exposed to arctic air blasts in the winter. Easily reaching the coast between 40 degree north and 35 degree north. The north central portion of the coast would be the most the effect. West and East are somewhat shielded by mountains. Basically winter will have a lot of variation.

The south coast of your Mediterranean has a east west mountain range all along the coast. This create a situation similar to Northern Morroco and Algeria. You will have a fertile strip in along the coast. Dry mountain and desert beyond. No Nile either as everything south lies in the Rainshadow.

South is a huge desert region created by the Doldrums. The problem is compound by the East West mountain range to the south where any monsoon effect is cut off. There would be a small sub tropical region on the western coast as it would get monsoon rain. The heating and cooling of the interior desert would draw the moisture laden air in certain seasons and reverse in others.

At extreme south would be a jungle chocked narrow coastal region.

Move west and starting at the north again.
We have the Taiga with a climate like Siberia.
Then probably a narrow belt of Steppe (not really shown on the map) Then the continental interior similar to the Gobi Desert. To west of the desert would be a large plain regions due to the rainfall from the eastern Mediterranean. The Gobi Desert would merge into the Sahara desert as the link is smack middle of the doldrums.

Moving west and working my way from south to north.

The Tropical belt again.

Northward the region is a close setup of China so you should be able to use China's Climate as a base line for this region. You have bands from south to north going Sub Tropical, Temperate, Cool Temperate. Unlikely any current here to warm the Manchuria equivalent like on our world. Finally we wind up with yet more Taiga similar to that found north of the Amur River.

The world is a big place so the regional climate will vary off the big overall picture. Especially where several zones converge like the wester Mediterranean.

With this setup likely you will have two main cultural area the West and the East with the Gobi Desert acting like a barrier between the two.

Damn estar, I'm almost speechless.  I knew I turned to the right man, but you've exceeding my expectations.  This is most helpful.

I don't know if I can attribute luck or generalizing the smaller scale worldbuilding I've done in the past, but your report looks quite a lot like what I expected.  One major exception:  The region south of the big "sea" colored in blue - I didn't expect the arid regions to stretch that far.  You mentioned a small, subtropic monsoon region on the western coast, but I feel bad for those folks.  That region is tentatively the major holdout against the forces of darkness.  Tall order if they can't grow food.  Nothing a bit of magic can't fix, but I wonder if you or anyone else could elaborate on the weather there or offer suggestions.  For precision, I'm talking about here:



Anyway, if I hadn't made it clear before, your expertise is greatly appreciated, impressive.  I'll take a hat off for you, but it doesn't seem like enough: :hatsoff:

Quote from: winkingbishop;371363Tall order if they can't grow food.  Nothing a bit of magic can't fix, but I wonder if you or anyone else could elaborate on the weather there or offer suggestions.  For precision, I'm talking about here:

Make the mountains hills on that peninsula pointing to the west and there should be enough of a monsoon to make that whole western coast arable.

Quote from: winkingbishop;371363Anyway, if I hadn't made it clear before, your expertise is greatly appreciated, impressive.  I'll take a hat off for you, but it doesn't seem like enough: :hatsoff:

No problem glad to be of service.

Nothing strokes the DM-God complex quite like wiping inconvenient mountains.  

I received some good feedback from folks on the other thread suggesting more contrast on the map overall.  Tell the truth, I'm quite tired now.  I have to travel tomorrow but I hope to get back to hacking at my map soon.  I'll post progress as it happens.  I appreciate all the feedback I've gotten here to date.  Thanks guys.

This is. Awesome. :worship:

Not to get off-topic but this is awesome. From the Harnforum.

http://www.lythia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11166