TheRPGSite

It's all about the adventure. It's about going forth, exploring strange lands, solving ancient mysteries, and collecting cartloads of bling. Any RPG that ignores this is doomed to failure.

The real difference between people is in how they go about adventuring. Why they adventure and what they do while adventuring. Difficulties arise when at least one person refuses to accept the fact the others don't accept his way of doing things as the only way of doing things.

You get right down to it, the first measure of any RPG is how well it facilitates adventure. How well it encourages taking risks and doing heroic things. If it fosters cautious play, then it is not encouraging adventuring.

RPGs are for the daring, or for those who'd like to be daring. It is not for those who need to be assured of an outcome, or, at the least, assured that they have some sort of "fair" chance. No, RPGs are really for those who are wiling to dare, to struggle against insurmountable odds and through wit, luck, and determination succeed when all else are certain the cause is doomed. Or die a glorious death, one or the other.

As one Rudyard Kipling once put it ...

You can talk of gin and beer
When you're quartered safe out here
And you're sent to pennyfights and aldershot it.

But when it comes to slaughter
You'll do you work on water
And you'll lick the bloomin' boots of him who's got it.

Is this an invitation for us to, likewise, write up our excitement about what we think "it's all about"?  Or are you most interested in exploring the vision you set forth?

Quote from: TonyLBIs this an invitation for us to, likewise, write up our excitement about what we think "it's all about"?  Or are you most interested in exploring the vision you set forth?

Pare the RPG down to the core. Toss system, mechanics, theory, style, and stance. Why do people play RPGs? At the very heart of the matter, what is the player's motivation?

To have adventures. To participate in activities you can't necessarily participate in in real life, everything else is just complications.

That's all RPGs are about, they're about the adventure. Even in a game such as Sorcerer or Dogs in the Vineyard it's the adventure that matter. The adventure can be comedic, it can be horrific, but it remains an adventure. And that's all RPGs have to be about.

DitV is about a particular type of adventure, good men and true out to battle evil. But it remains an adventure. A DitV style adventure need not occur in a mythical American West. It could happen in the frozen wastes of Siberia, with agents of the Czar hunting down anarchists and insurrectionists. It could even involve employees of a private detective agency seeking out lost souls caught up in destructive cults. What matters is not where it occurs, or who is involved, but in why it is happening. And the most basic question is, why are the players participating in this particular type of adventure? The answer is very simple, because they want to take part in an adventure, and this is the sort of adventure they want to take part in.

That, really, is the first step in game design. You answer the question, "What do you do?" Once you know what your game is about, you can go on to answer the second of the two questions all game designers must answer for their design to be successful, "How do you do it?"

For all RPGs the answer to the first question is always, to have adventures. It's when you start to answer the second that the answers can, and do, vary. But, any RPG designer who forgets it's all about the adventure is doomed to fail.

Could the breakup of a couple be an adventure in your sense?

Quote from: droogCould the breakup of a couple be an adventure in your sense?

Could be the basis for an adventure, though an unusual one. Why are they breaking up? Any hope of reconciliation? How is each taking the breakup? Is either posessive, vengeful, going insane?

A friend in Australia, Zoe Brain (http://aebrain.blogspot.com) is going through a divorce from her wife of over 25 years because Zoe had what amounts to a spontaneous sex change (involves cholesterol medication). What complications could arise (the couple have a 5 year old boy)? How might others get involved? What or who could be acting to estrange the two and make what might be an amicable separation nasty?

In short, how do you take the basic scenario and turn it into an adventure?

Quote from: mythusmagePare the RPG down to the core. Toss system, mechanics, theory, style, and stance. Why do people play RPGs? At the very heart of the matter, what is the player's motivation?

To have adventures.

Dude ... you didn't answer my question.  I get what you find most exciting about RPGs.  I think that if you're saying that everybody finds the same thing exciting then you are, frankly, deluded.  But I get that you find it exciting, and that's cool.

My question is about the direction of the thread.  If other people find other things exciting and "core" do you want to hear about it, or should they (and I) just stay away?

I say a breakup isn't an adventure. It's a scenario.

Adventures are about characters going places and doing stuff. It has context and in involves moving (venturing) from one locale to the next.

Adventures contain multiple scenarios by default, and generally have some kind of transition from one scenario to the next.

Scenarios are just situations before anything happens. They can be exciting and awesome or they can be something lame like a breakup.

Now I'm not going to say that "what everyone wants are adventures" or anything, but I would bet more people want those by far.

I've been rereading the Temple of Elemental Evil lately. It starts out in the Village of Hommlet. What are you supposed to do there? Well you could buy and sell stuff, wander around town, run into NPCs, and hear about the moathouse or various other clues. It also has details like "The weaver is secretly in love with the woodcutter's wife" (seriously, this is pages 14-15)

The Village of Hommlet (with all of it's NPCs and it's details) is a scenario. It isn't until you leave that scene, and head to the moathouse, and fight the dragon in the courtyard that the adventure really begins.

Now, at the same time, let's say you start the game right at the point where the characters are entering the moathouse courtyard and bam, you have the dragon battle with Utreshimon right then. And then after the battle is over you end the game.

Was that an adventure? It had a dragon, right? I say no. It was just a scenario, since it had no context and nobody went anywhere.

On the other hand, what if you did the dragon battle, then you had the players explore the moathouse, and battle all the cultists in the dungeon below? I say yes, adventure., They were going from place to place doing stuff. Each room presents a different situation, and each situation is it's own scenario.

Ok, so what if during the breakup scenario, the two breakuppers wander from room to room in a house as they argue? Not an adventure. It's not like each room presents a different situation. Let's say the two breakuppers split up and one flies to a different country and they continue to argue over cell phones. Is it an adventure yet? Nope. Same situation. You just changed the backdrop.

Ok, so what if the breakup starts in one location and then a bad guy abducts one party, and the other guy has to figure out clues to find her? Each clue is a scenario. Thats an adventure.

What if they break up in a haunted house and each room has it's own unique situation? Thats probably an adventure.

Normal house? Not an adventure. It's not like the situation changes when they enter the kitchen or whatever.

I think the plot of most romantic comedy movies (eg. The Wedding Singer) could be considered "an adventure".  Classic literature too -- Wuthering Heights could be considered an adventure.  There's a lot more than just an argument, breakup, or two people falling in love there.  Those things might be scenes / situations within the story/adventure.

Quote from: mythusmageCould be the basis for an adventure, though an unusual one. Why are they breaking up? Any hope of reconciliation? How is each taking the breakup? Is either posessive, vengeful, going insane?
..............................
In short, how do you take the basic scenario and turn it into an adventure?

I'm thinking of Ron Edwards' game It Was a Mutual Decision, which runs in sections ('chapters'): Before, During and After. There's no possibility of reconciliation, so it's about how the characters act during the breakup.

The questions you raise in the first paragraph are pretty much what the game runs on. They would be answered differently by different groups of players.

Adventure? In a broad sense, I suppose.

Quote from: TonyLBDude ... you didn't answer my question.  I get what you find most exciting about RPGs.  I think that if you're saying that everybody finds the same thing exciting then you are, frankly, deluded.  But I get that you find it exciting, and that's cool.

My question is about the direction of the thread.  If other people find other things exciting and "core" do you want to hear about it, or should they (and I) just stay away?

Tony, learn to listen. I said it very plainly, it is not my fault you got confused.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI say a breakup isn't an adventure. It's a scenario.

Adventures are about characters going places and doing stuff. It has context and in involves moving (venturing) from one locale to the next.

Adventures contain multiple scenarios by default, and generally have some kind of transition from one scenario to the next.

Scenarios are just situations before anything happens. They can be exciting and awesome or they can be something lame like a breakup.

Now I'm not going to say that "what everyone wants are adventures" or anything, but I would bet more people want those by far.

I've been rereading the Temple of Elemental Evil lately. It starts out in the Village of Hommlet. What are you supposed to do there? Well you could buy and sell stuff, wander around town, run into NPCs, and hear about the moathouse or various other clues. It also has details like "The weaver is secretly in love with the woodcutter's wife" (seriously, this is pages 14-15)

The Village of Hommlet (with all of it's NPCs and it's details) is a scenario. It isn't until you leave that scene, and head to the moathouse, and fight the dragon in the courtyard that the adventure really begins.

Now, at the same time, let's say you start the game right at the point where the characters are entering the moathouse courtyard and bam, you have the dragon battle with Utreshimon right then. And then after the battle is over you end the game.

Was that an adventure? It had a dragon, right? I say no. It was just a scenario, since it had no context and nobody went anywhere.

On the other hand, what if you did the dragon battle, then you had the players explore the moathouse, and battle all the cultists in the dungeon below? I say yes, adventure., They were going from place to place doing stuff. Each room presents a different situation, and each situation is it's own scenario.

Ok, so what if during the breakup scenario, the two breakuppers wander from room to room in a house as they argue? Not an adventure. It's not like each room presents a different situation. Let's say the two breakuppers split up and one flies to a different country and they continue to argue over cell phones. Is it an adventure yet? Nope. Same situation. You just changed the backdrop.

Ok, so what if the breakup starts in one location and then a bad guy abducts one party, and the other guy has to figure out clues to find her? Each clue is a scenario. Thats an adventure.

What if they break up in a haunted house and each room has it's own unique situation? Thats probably an adventure.

Normal house? Not an adventure. It's not like the situation changes when they enter the kitchen or whatever.

No, a scenario is the form the adventure takes. A scenario will have scenes and locations, but those do not constitute scenarios in and of themselves. Furthermore, an adventure is about something. In this case about a breakup. And, yes, an adventure can take place in a house. Adventures are not restricted to exotic locales.

Besides which, an adventure is something you have. It's what happens while you're trying to do something. Even a shopping trip can be an adventure when approached the right way.

My point is, you can have adventures even in the strangest of places, and in the oddest of circumstances. Which is tangential to my original point, that RPGs are about adventures.

That's a very broad definition of 'adventure'.

Quote from: mythusmagePare the RPG down to the core. Toss system, mechanics, theory, style, and stance. Why do people play RPGs? At the very heart of the matter, what is the player's motivation?

To have adventures. To participate in activities you can't necessarily participate in in real life, everything else is just complications.

IME people enjoy RPGs for a variety of reasons - in my group's case the main  reason, being that they enjoy playing a role and interacting with other folks who are also playing a role.

Player's motivation and to have adventures does not sit well with me...I'll get back to you on this point :D

Regards,
David R

Quote from: mythusmageMy point is, you can have adventures even in the strangest of places, and in the oddest of circumstances. Which is tangential to my original point, that RPGs are about adventures.

Okay, thought about this a little more. I think adventures is too vague a term and doesn't really reflect the spirit of why we and by this I mean my players play rpgs. I think a more appropiate word is Journey.

Okay, what do I mean by this? As I mentioned earlier, my players play rpgs (or so the consensus around the gaming table seems to be) because they like playing a role and interacting with others who are also playing roles.

But RPGs are so much more than playing a role and interacting with other players. For some folks, it's about the Journey, their characters take. Say, you start of as a brash young pilot but evolve into a knight who saves the galaxy, discovering things about yourself along the way.

The Journey from point A to B is what's it's all about. Sure they have adventures along the way - and depending on the kind of game, adventures could be as thrilling as stopping the Dark Lord or as banal as discovering something about your spouse that you did not know - but the core as you put, is about the Journey.

Do you get where I'm coming from?

Regards,
David R

The Hero's Journey, by Joseph Campbell (http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Campbell-Heros-Journey-III/dp/B000K7UEMW) is often on the syllabus for screenwriting programs.

Basically -- Journey = Adventure = Story

Quote from: StuartThe Hero's Journey, by Joseph Campbell (http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Campbell-Heros-Journey-III/dp/B000K7UEMW) is often on the syllabus for screenwriting programs.

Basically -- Journey = Adventure = Story

Hmm..I don't know if Campbell's Hero's Journey accurately reflects what I mean by Journey. I'd use Character's Journey only because it seems to me, more...I don't know....okay, it feels right. Then again, I'm using Mythus's adventure, only because it's convenient :D

Regards,
David R

I mention that because a lot of writers talk about a "character's journey".

Quote from: David ROkay, thought about this a little more. I think adventures is too vague a term and doesn't really reflect the spirit of why we and by this I mean my players play rpgs. I think a more appropiate word is Journey.

Okay, what do I mean by this? As I mentioned earlier, my players play rpgs (or so the consensus around the gaming table seems to be) because they like playing a role and interacting with others who are also playing roles.

But RPGs are so much more than playing a role and interacting with other players. For some folks, it's about the Journey, their characters take. Say, you start of as a brash young pilot but evolve into a knight who saves the galaxy, discovering things about yourself along the way.

The Journey from point A to B is what's it's all about. Sure they have adventures along the way - and depending on the kind of game, adventures could be as thrilling as stopping the Dark Lord or as banal as discovering something about your spouse that you did not know - but the core as you put, is about the Journey.

Do you get where I'm coming from?

Regards,
David R

But, what are you doing when you play an RPG? You're having an adventure. The journey is part of the adventure. As is the socializing, the bling collection, the moral quandries. All part of the grand foray into danger and possible fame.

Quote from: mythusmageBut, what are you doing when you play an RPG?

Playing a role?

QuoteYou're having an adventure.

Your character maybe having an adventure -and I'm using the word adventure with some reservation, but what motivates you as a player could be a variety of things.

QuoteThe journey is part of the adventure. As is the socializing, the bling collection, the moral quandries. All part of the grand foray into danger and possible fame.

I don't know Mythus, is this about semantics. I mean, you seem to think that every RPG experience can be reduced to players wanting adventure or, that adventure is a sufficent term to describe nearly every possible situation - I don't think this is the case

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RPlaying a role?



Your character maybe having an adventure -and I'm using the word adventure with some reservation, but what motivates you as a player could be a variety of things.



I don't know Mythus, is this about semantics. I mean, you seem to think that every RPG experience can be reduced to players wanting adventure or, that adventure is a sufficent term to describe nearly every possible situation - I don't think this is the case

Regards,
David R

The problem I see here is that you want to complicate things when they don't need to be. Sometimes the motivation is that simple. You, through your character, have an adventure. You travel, you see strange things, you win rewards and fame. All part of the adventure. During the adventure you, as your character, can see and do all sorts of things, but it's all part of the adventure.

An RPG doesn't need to be anything more. It can explore all sorts of issues, and still be nothing less than a chance to adventure.

Quote from: mythusmageThe problem I see here is that you want to complicate things when they don't need to be. Sometimes the motivation is that simple. You, through your character, have an adventure.

There's nothing complicated about it. You assume, that the motivation is only for adventure. I posted based on experience that it could be something other than adventure.

QuoteYou travel, you see strange things, you win rewards and fame. All part of the adventure. During the adventure you, as your character, can see and do all sorts of things, but it's all part of the adventure.

I'm assuming you mean, even if the game does not involve the characters travelling, seeing strange things, winning awards and fame, you still define it as adventure, right?

QuoteAn RPG doesn't need to be anything more. It can explore all sorts of issues, and still be nothing less than a chance to adventure.

An RPG can be more than just an adventure, but at the end of the day, it's still a game.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: mythusmageIt's all about the adventure. It's about going forth, exploring strange lands, solving ancient mysteries, and collecting cartloads of bling. Any RPG that ignores this is doomed to failure.

Which of course explains how horribly World of Darkness has performed over the years. Not enough bling! :)

An adventure is what occurs while you are busy doing something else? ;)

No, man, It's all about the characters.  Adventures just give people reasons to have cool characters doing cool stuff.   Nobody wants to hear about Generic Joe going to kill a dragon.  They want to hear about Joe, a poor farmboy who bucked up, grabbed the family pitchfork and bravely went where brave knights feared to tread to slay the dragon...who was maruading and burning down the family farm.

Generic Joe could be anyboy. Joe Farmboy was SOMEBODY, and as a consequence his adventure had meaning.


You see it in movies. People pay good money to see crap sequels because they are already invested in the CHARACTERS.  Or the Actors, who are often characters in their own rights.  Does having seen Yojimbo mean I don't need to see 'A Fist Full of Dollars'? Hardly!  It's not the adventure, it's the freakin' Characters, man!

Okay, I'll get off m'box now.

mythusmage, I find your definition unexceptionable. But it's so broad that I wonder where it gets us. Are there any example of games that do not have 'adventures' in your sense?

As humans we have the remarkable ability to ascribe to numerous motivations for doing things. We do this with RPGs, crediting all sorts of reasons for participation. But, when you get right down to it, we play RPGs to take part in adventures. To do things and see things we otherwise wouldn't. And certainly wouldn't in real life in many cases.

It's the chance to experience things we normally wouldn't experience. Very often things we could never experience. Other motivations can play a role, but without the adventure why take part in an RPG?

The adventure forms the foundation for all the rest. Politics, treasure hunting, romance can all be foundations for adventure. Exploration, breakups, shopping can all be part of an adventure.

Have you ever played an RPG where it didn't involve an adventure? Have you ever played a game where nothing adventurous happened? Have you ever played an RPG not designed for adventures? That's what RPGs are designed for, and should the players not get an adventure they'll let you know about it.
Even Cats from Wicked Dead Press involves adventuring. In this safe and staid world of ours we get bored, we need a little excitement every now and then. For those of us in the RPG hobby the adventures we have in game provide that excitement.

Would it really be the same if all you did was socialize?

Quote from: mythusmageHave you ever played an RPG where it didn't involve an adventure? Have you ever played a game where nothing adventurous happened?

Yes, on both counts.  I've played games where the biggest journey was down to the local skate park.  I've played games where the biggest threat was that the new kid at school might think you're a dweeb.  They were fun games.

Quote from: mythusmageAs humans we have the remarkable ability to ascribe to numerous motivations for doing things. We do this with RPGs, crediting all sorts of reasons for participation. But, when you get right down to it, we play RPGs to take part in adventures. To do things and see things we otherwise wouldn't. And certainly wouldn't in real life in many cases.

So in other words, when we talk about our experiences, you disregard them because you know what's really behind the motivation for all play...we're just...wait for it...brain damaged :D

Quote.... but without the adventure why take part in an RPG?

The enjoyment that comes from playing a character ?

QuoteThe adventure forms the foundation for all the rest. Politics, treasure hunting, romance can all be foundations for adventure. Exploration, breakups, shopping can all be part of an adventure.

There's that word again...

QuoteHave you ever played an RPG where it didn't involve an adventure? Have you ever played a game where nothing adventurous happened? Have you ever played an RPG not designed for adventures? That's what RPGs are designed for, and should the players not get an adventure they'll let you know about it.

Yup, that's the whole point of this discussion, right?

QuoteWould it really be the same if all you did was socialize?

I think so.

Regards,
David R

I think those two experiences match his definition of Adventure, unless I'm overestimating it's broadness. He included shopping trips as adventures though, so I don't think I'm too far off the mark.

Tell me now, how were the experiences you recounted above not part of an adventure? Have you ever thought of how much what happens in a shopping expedition resembles what happens in an adventure? Identifying the goal, the journey to the site, the exploration, the many false leads, the finding of the treasure and the payment of the cost.

Even more important, how frequent were those not-adventures? Were they any where near as frequent as the adventures? Did they take place as part of an adventure?

Now for something you seem to be overlooking, people can be wrong. Not everybody understands their motivation for doing something. Often it's because they really don't know. Having adventures is not something we do as part of daily life, and we do tend to separate our characters from ourselves. So we don't realize that it is us having those adventures, as our characters. Our PCs act as our surrogates, but when you get right down to it, we are the ones spiking open that door and rifling through the chests. We are the ones confronting that town mayor about his trafficking in things of darkness. To paraphrase Pogo Possum, "We have met the adventurer, and he is us."

Last but not least, what is wrong with having adventures?

Quote from: mythusmageTell me now, how were the experiences you recounted above not part of an adventure? Have you ever thought of how much what happens in a shopping expedition resembles what happens in an adventure? Identifying the goal, the journey to the site, the exploration, the many false leads, the finding of the treasure and the payment of the cost.

I like the way, you managed to link shopping expedition with adventure ;) So, you consider going and buying a pack of smokes an adventure?

QuoteEven more important, how frequent were those not-adventures? Were they any where near as frequent as the adventures? Did they take place as part of an adventure?

A couple of folks talking about their lives during a smoke break is adventure? Don't get me wrong, if you are going to lump every situation as adventure...I'm cool with that, sort off. Like I said at least you're inclusive.

To answer, your question yeah, those non-adventures were precisely the point of the whole game...it may sound boring to some (my example: the players were a group of high school teachers, deciding whether to ban a particular student - okay, I'd just reaquainted myself with Lumet's 12 Angry Men....Gawd, this is sooo :o -ing)

QuoteNow for something you seem to be overlooking, people can be wrong. Not everybody understands their motivation for doing something. Often it's because they really don't know.

Okay, Mythus it's shit like this which gets some folks all worked up.

QuoteLast but not least, what is wrong with having adventures?

What's wrong with not having adventures? It's kind of like this. Indiana Jones has adventures. The kids from Stand By Me had an adventure. The high school kids from Brick had an adventure. But I wouldn't consider all films -games - and all situations as adventures. Can you dig it?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: TonyLBIs this an invitation for us to, likewise, write up our excitement about what we think "it's all about"?  Or are you most interested in exploring the vision you set forth?

Tony, note he says that rpgs which ignore this vision are doomed to failure, the point being made is that rpgs at their best are about adventure in the sense most of us would mean by that word.  Other rpgs are possible dealing with things other than adventure, but they will not be successful.

Mythusmage, please correct me if I've misunderstood.

Assuming I'm correct in interpreting his post, what you think it is about may well be of interest, but if it's different to that then rpgs about what you think it's about will be failures.

Depending on how we measure success, I broadly agree with him, in terms of widespread adoption only rpgs about adventure will I think have much success.  In terms of covering costs, a much wider range of rpgs will be successful.  In terms of artistic merit, buggered if I know, I'm not qualified to judge.

Quote from: mythusmageTell me now, how were the experiences you recounted above not part of an adventure? Have you ever thought of how much what happens in a shopping expedition resembles what happens in an adventure? Identifying the goal, the journey to the site, the exploration, the many false leads, the finding of the treasure and the payment of the cost.

Uh ... the shopping expedition was your example.  I was talking about people going down to the skate-park, or worrying about what the new kid will think of them.

Quote from: mythusmageEven more important, how frequent were those not-adventures? Were they any where near as frequent as the adventures? Did they take place as part of an adventure?

I'm actually talking about one-shots ... so the things I have described were the entirety of the game (indeed, the entirety of the campaign) and there wasn't anything else.

Quote from: mythusmageNow for something you seem to be overlooking, people can be wrong. Not everybody understands their motivation for doing something. Often it's because they really don't know.

For instance, you might believe that your motivation for saying that was to point out the truth of your theory, but be wrong.  It could be that your motivation was actually to try to salvage a theory that's clearly nothing more than your personal preferences hyped up with a lot of empty rhetoric, so that you wouldn't have to suck it up and admit that you're wrong and have been since post number one.

You're right, people can be wrong ... but do you really think that your best guess at my motivations should bear more weight than my knowledge of myself?

Quote from: BalbinusDepending on how we measure success, I broadly agree with him, in terms of widespread adoption only rpgs about adventure will I think have much success.  In terms of covering costs, a much wider range of rpgs will be successful.  In terms of artistic merit, buggered if I know, I'm not qualified to judge.

Oh, see I was assuming (from the way he talked about player motivation and satisfying play) that he meant that a game without "adventure" would fail to provide entertaining play.  Maybe Mythusmage will elaborate on what he meant by saying that the games would fail.

Quote from: TonyLBOh, see I was assuming (from the way he talked about player motivation and satisfying play) that he meant that a game without "adventure" would fail to provide entertaining play.  Maybe Mythusmage will elaborate on what he meant by saying that the games would fail.

Perhaps, I'll start a spin-off thread on my interpretation.  Please feel free to shoot it down :)

Okay, a shopping trip isn't necessarily an adventure, but it can be part of an adventure. It all depends on how you approach it. But, consider what the typical session consists of. For all intents and purposes, the same sort of thing you read about in adventure stories. Pick most any RPG out in a store and after reading through it you'll learn that it's about going forth, journeying, and finding things. With people to meet, villains to beat, and goodies to collect. Adventure.

To quote from West Side Story: Smoke on your pipe and put that in.

Expect a new thread on the importance of adventure in RPG design.

Quote from: mythusmageBut, consider what the typical session consists of. For all intents and purposes, the same sort of thing you read about in adventure stories.

You keep saying that ... despite the fact that other people (e.g. me) have been telling you that their sessions don't necessarily consist of the same thing.

Quote from: TonyLBYou keep saying that ... despite the fact that other people (e.g. me) have been telling you that their sessions don't necessarily consist of the same thing.

Could it be because you aren't thinking of what you do as adventuring? Or that you are focusing on what occurs during the adventure?

Quote from: mythusmageCould it be because you aren't thinking of what you do as adventuring?

Yes, mythusmage, it is entirely possible that we're disagreeing with you because we believe that you're wrong.

:lol:

Quote from: TonyLBYou keep saying that ... despite the fact that other people (e.g. me) have been telling you that their sessions don't necessarily consist of the same thing.

I think he meant typical as in typical across the hobby, which presumably would be D&D.  Typical as in the typical gaming experience, not typical as in the typical gaming experience of a particular group.

Those are very different things, that said this whole thread suffers from a certain lack of clarity.

I think there is a typical gaming experience, I also think that a typical session for me is not necessarily that typical generally.  Both can be true.

Quote from: BalbinusI think he meant typical as in typical across the hobby, which presumably would be D&D.  Typical as in the typical gaming experience, not typical as in the typical gaming experience of a particular group.

Those are very different things, that said this whole thread suffers from a certain lack of clarity.

Probably. But I'm think that Mythus, does not really want to dicuss the issues whatever they may be. He refuses to acknowledge anyone else's experience and has obviously reached a conclusion about this topic by taking into account the most important view....his own.

Regards,
David R

Sorry people, but you aint gonna guilt me into a concession. :)

You ever consider the possibility I could be right? That you are participating in an adventure each time you play? That all your objections and nit-picking are so you don't have to admit you do anything so unseemly as adventuring?

Many years ago I read a book, ostensibly on raven behavior in the American Northeast, but as much on scientific observation as anything else. The author thought a winter's observation would do the trick. No such luck. Over the years he spent collecting data he learned things about raven behavior no one had ever observed before.

I've observed gamer behavior for years now, both off and on-line. It's all about the adventure. Socializing plays a role, but at the heart it's the adventure. Explore new worlds, learn new things, collect new swag. Observe your fellow players at your next adventure, see what they do, how they behave. Watch over a period of time, what keeps them interested, what keeps them engaged. Learn why they game from what they do instead of what they say.

mythusmage, the only way you can be right is if you redefine the word adventure to make it mean something akin to "the stuff you do when you roleplay." There have been several people giving examples already of things that aren't adventures in the typical sense of the word. Either you redefine the word, you say that what they're doing isn't true gaming, or you abandon the theory.

I personally prefer adventure to mean only those things that are adventurous, so I'll go with option #1.

Quote from: mythusmageYou ever consider the possibility I could be right? That you are participating in an adventure each time you play? That all your objections and nit-picking are so you don't have to admit you do anything so unseemly as adventuring?

You're attacking on (at least) two different fronts here:

• Maybe the things we don't think of as adventures actually are ... maybe sitting around in the parking lot of the Gas'n'Sip is actually an adventure, and we just don't realize it.
  
• Maybe we have some ulterior motive for not wanting to subscribe to the term "adventure."

Your first argument is semantic:  You're expanding the definition of the term way beyond the common usage, and also well beyond the usage you gave it in your earlier posts.  At this point is there any type of story wherein events occur that you wouldn't typify as an "adventure"?

The second argument is ad hominem, plain and simple.  You're not calling anyone's arguments into doubt, you're calling their motives for making the arguments into doubt.

Both arguments are weak, weak sauce.

Quote from: mythusmageI've observed gamer behavior for years now, both off and on-line. It's all about the adventure.

This is a very poorly thought out tack for you to take, Alan.  You're appealing to your authority as having observed gamer behavior.  That really only strengthens your argument if that authority sets you apart from the other people in the discussion.  Do you honestly think that you're talking to people who haven't spent years observing gamer behavior?  Guess again.

To quote an applicable exchange from Alladin:  "Look out!  He's got a sword!"  "You idiot!  We've ALL got swords!"

We've all observed gamers.  Some of us have observations that don't mesh with your theory.

Adventure is fun.  And if you want to play a game that is all about adventure, more power to you.  If you want to spend a lifetime playing games that are all about adventure, more power to you.  That sounds like a very good thing.

But it's not the only way to play.  People are telling you left, right and center their experiences with playing in different ways.  Rather than saying "Oh!  Wow!  That's a type of play I've never encountered.  I suppose I'd better expand my view of what's possible," you are digging in your heels and arguing "No!  I have a THEORY, and my theory is more important than the facts!  A little semantic jiggery-pokery, a little casting aspersions on people's motives, and my precious theory will triumph over the naysayers!"

Pack it in, mate.  You're done.