[Thunderdome]: Justin Alexander vs. Kaelik

crkrueger · August 21, 2012, 08:39:18 PM

Justin Alexander...gets to revise Spike's characters.
Kaelik gets...a Bone Devil
deadDMwalking gets...hopefully some relief from Kaelik's badgering.

Let the name Spike be no longer spoken in this sacred arena.

THIS IS THUNDERDOME!!

The stakes: Can Kaelik's Bone Devil TPK a 10th level party?
Can he do it 100% as he said?

:popcorn:

Rum Cove · August 21, 2012, 08:40:18 PM

:popcorn:

gleichman · August 21, 2012, 08:48:57 PM

Anyone who wimps out- Faces the Wheel!

Roll d10

1) Auntie’s Choice- that would be Pundit's choice I'm afraid.
2) Gulag - Quitter can't post at the site for 1 week
3) Acquittal - Nothing happens to the quitter, we can no longer bitch about his quitting either
4) Hard Labor - Quitter has to buy, read and write of review of a crappy game.
5) Spin Again - Spin Again
6) Forfeit Goods - Quiter loses his avatar for a month
7) Death - Quitter replaces his avatar with a dead version one for a month.

Underworld - Quitter must post in the s*** ugly green color for one month
10) Life Imprisonment - Quitter must put bars on his Avatar for one month

Marleycat · August 21, 2012, 09:42:43 PM

You are such an asshole.

:popcorn:

Fiasco · August 22, 2012, 12:40:49 AM

Thread has promise. Clearer objectives and 3.5 experts on either side...

MGuy · August 22, 2012, 01:05:21 AM

I think that Kaelik should get another creature and another set up. I know that the basic outline of his approach has already been ruined in the last thread. I think that to avoid any metagame possibilities that another creature should be used and the situation switched up. At the very least it'll keep things fresh.

Marleycat · August 22, 2012, 01:36:14 AM

Quote from: MGuy;575032I think that Kaelik should get another creature and another set up. I know that the basic outline of his approach has already been ruined in the last thread. I think that to avoid any metagame possibilities that another creature should be used and the situation switched up. At the very least it'll keep things fresh.

It would be fine with me. But Mguy you know this will never happen, right? CK is my friend but he is such an asshole, seriously. Just like I'm a bitch, so it works nicely.

crkrueger · August 22, 2012, 02:17:39 AM

Dunno, based on all the assertions Kaelik made in that thread, sure seems like a Core 10th level party has absolutely no chance against a Bone Devil, none. If Kaelik meant to say no chance unless he can perfectly set up his all-winning Wall of Ice/Illusion delusion and without perfect surprise, the Bone Devil could lose, then fine, he can weasel out like Spike did and we can move to another monster.

I want to see this legendary thing called the Bone Devil lay waste to Justin's party. :popcorn:

Marleycat · August 22, 2012, 02:25:46 AM

Quote from: CRKrueger;575059Dunno, based on all the assertions Kaelik made in that thread, sure seems like a Core 10th level party has absolutely no chance against a Bone Devil, none. If Kaelik meant to say no chance unless he can perfectly set up his all-winning Wall of Ice/Illusion delusion and without perfect surprise, the Bone Devil could lose, then fine, he can weasel out like Spike did and we can move to another monster.

I want to see this legendary thing called the Bone Devil lay waste to Justin's party. :popcorn:

My point is proven. You are such an asshole. I refuse to believe this will ever happen. Luckily football season is here, so I can wait.
:popcorn: I hate you because now I'm actually interested.

Planet Algol · August 22, 2012, 02:37:47 AM

If either party in this battle wastes time skulking around instead of putting on a battle show they can expect some serious trash talk from the peanut gallery....

This is an arena, not Vietnam.

Marleycat · August 22, 2012, 02:55:05 AM

Quote from: Planet Algol;575067If either party in this battle wastes time skulking around instead of putting on a battle show they can expect some serious trash talk from the peanut gallery....

This is an arena, not Vietnam.

Nice. I love this site. It's all put up or shut up. Sorry I forgot, it's football season sue me.

Yes Marley likes other things beyond rpg's blame my brothers.

deadDMwalking · August 22, 2012, 03:37:33 AM

Setting this thread up may have been premature. In any case, I'm willing to adjudicate if the following conditions are met:

1) Justin Alexander wanted to review Spike's characters to ensure that they're not unnecessarily gimped. I would like him to confirm that he is okay with running them as Spike wrote them.

For reference:

Spoiler

Please review the revised stat blocks. This is mostly to make it easier for me to read, but also to catch any errors. Some you were aware of, but I've made notes for most of the changes, anyways. If you have any objections, let me know.

Dag Hammerskojld
Half-Orc Fighter 10
SZ M; HD 10d10+10; hp 73;
Init +4 (+0 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative);
Spd 20 ft. (4 squares);
AC 21 (+11 armor), touch 10, flat-footed 21;
BAB/Grap +10/+16;
Full Atk +19/+14 melee (1d10+12 plus 2d6 to evil creatures/17-20x2, +1 Holy Heavy Flail;
Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.;
SA -; SQ darkvision 60-ft., half-orc traits;
AL CG;
SV Fort +9 (7 base, +1 Con, +1 resistance), Ref +4 (3 base, +1 resistance), Will +8 (3 base, +2 Wis, +1 resistance, +2 Iron Will);
Str 23, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6.

Skills: Climb +5* (4 ranks, +6 Str), Ride +4 (4 ranks), Intimidate +7 (9 ranks, -2 Chr) Swim +5* (9 ranks, +6 Str).
*includes Armor Check penalty (-5)
Feats: Blind Fight, Greater Weapon Focus [flail], Improved Critical [flail], Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Leadership, Power Attack, Weapon Focus [flail], Weapon Specialization [flail].

Possessions: +3 Full Plate, Belt of Ogre Strength +4, Cloak of Resistance +1, potion of cure moderate wounds (2d8+3) [x3], oil of silversheen.

Notes: You had your attack listed as +22/+17. I calculate the attack bonus as +19/+14 (+10 BAB, +6 Str, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Greater Weapon Focus, +1 Weapon). I added Weapon Specialization to damage. I didn’t understand your skills, so look over what I have for you – if this isn’t what you want, we can fix it.

Jurgen Hammerskoljd
Human Cleric 10
SZ M; HD 10d8+20; hp 76;
Init +3 (-1 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative);
Spd 20 ft. (4 squares);
AC 22 (-1 Dex, +10 armor, +3 shield), touch 9, flat-footed 22;
BAB/Grap +7/+7;
Full Atk +8/+3 melee (1d8+1/20x2, +1 Heavy Mace;
Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.;
SA turn undead, spells; SQ -;
AL NG;
SV Fort +9 (7 base, +2 Con), Ref +2 (3 base, -1 Dex), Will +10 (7 base, +3 Wis);
Str 10, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 13.

Skills: Concentration +15 (13 ranks, +2 Con), Diplomacy +14 (13 ranks, +1 Cha), Knowledge [religion] +14 (13 ranks, +1 Int), Spellcraft +14 (13 ranks, +1 Int).

Feats: Augment Summoning, Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell, Spell Focus [conjuration], Spell Penetration.

Prepared Spells (6/5+1/5+1/4+1/3+1/2+1; save DC 13 + spell level):
0—create water, detect magic [x3], guidance, read magic;
1st—cure light wounds*, bless [x2], detect evil [x2], divine favor;
2nd-align weapon, consecrate, cure moderate wounds*, inflict moderate wounds, spiritual weapon, summon monster II;
3rd – dispel magic, fly*, magic circle against evil, searing light, summon monster III,
4th – dimension door*, death ward, dismissal, restoration
5th – mass cure light wounds*, summon monster V, true seeing.
*denotes domain spell

Possessions: +2 Full Plate, +2 Light Shield, +1 Heavy Mace, minor circlet of blasting (+6 ranged touch 3d8 or 6d6 1/day), goggles of night, medallion of thoughts, oil of silversheen[x2], holy symbol (gold), holy symbol (wood), holy water [x4].

Notes: As far as I could tell, you had spent 42 skill points; you should have had 52 (16 at 1st level, plus 4 per level thereafter). That’s enough to have max ranks in 4 skills, so that’s what I did. Pelor doesn’t grant access to the Travel Domain, but there’s no reason Jurgen can’t be dedicated to an ideal. Healing and Travel would fit together for an order of battlefield medics, so I have no objections. It appears you forgot bonus spells for a high Wisdom (one at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd). I chose spells that seemed appropriate, but feel free to change them out if you like, or let me know if you want to leave those slots open to prepare additional spells later.

Ambrose the Awesome
Human Wizard 10
SZ M; HD 10d4+30; hp 60;
Init +1 (+1 Dex);
Spd 30 ft. (6 squares);
AC 11 (+1 Dex), touch 11, flat-footed 10;
BAB/Grap +5/+4;
Full Atk +4 melee (1d3-1/20x2, unarmed strike;
Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.;
SA spells; SQ familiar (rat);
AL CN;
SV Fort +8 (3 base, +3 Con, +2 familiar), Ref +4 (3 base, +1 Dex), Will +8 (7 base, +1 Wis);
Str 8, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 19, Wis 12, Cha 10.

Skills: Concentration +16 or +20 to cast defensively (13 ranks, +3 Con, +4 Combat Casting), Decipher Script +17 (13 ranks, +4 Int), Profession (masseuse) +14 (13 ranks, +1 Wis), Knowledge [arcana] +17 (13 ranks, +4 Int), Knowledge [history] +11 (7 ranks, +4 Int), Spellcraft +17 (13 ranks, +4 Int).

Feats: Combat Casting, Extend Spell, Greater Spell Penetration, Heighten Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Spell Mastery, Spell Penetration.

Prepared Spells (4/5/5/4/4/2; save DC 14 + spell level):
0—disrupt undead [x3], mage hand [x3];
1st—feather fall, magic missile [x2], ray of enfeeblement [x2];
2nd-darkvision, false life, knock [x2], mirror image;
3rd – blink, dispel magic, fireball, fly
4th – black tentacles, dimension door [x2], greater invisibility
5th – extended stoneskin, prying eyes.

Possessions: [iHeadband of Intellect +2[/i], Amulet of Health +2, [ibead of force[/i], minor cloak of displacement potion of cure moderate wounds (2d8+3)[x2].

Notes: You had the AC listed as 14, but I couldn’t see anything that increased the AC beyond the +1 Dex. BAB is +5 (not +4). I calculate the Fort save as +8, not +7. Ambrose should have 72 skill points – it’s a pain because of his change in Intelligence modifier from +2 to +3 at 4th level, plus the additional skill point for being human. I increased all chosen skill to max ranks (13) and then spent the remaining extra skill points on Knowledge [history]. Ambrose was short a feat, but he didn’t have Spell Penetration listed, which is a prerequisite for Greater Spell Penetration. I added bonus spells for high intelligence (plus one at 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th). Since I don’t see what spells he has in his spellbook, I just added an additional preparation of a spell already chosen, except for dispel magic at 3rd. The cloak of displacement does not specify if it is minor or major; I assume minor.

Gareth Three-Fingers, V
Dwarf Rogue 10
SZ M; HD 10d10+10; hp 73;
Init +8 (+4 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative);
Spd 20 ft. (4 squares);
AC 20 (+4 Dex, +6 armor), touch 14, flat-footed 16;
BAB/Grap +7/+8;
Full Atk +12 ranged (1d10+1/19-20x2, +1 Heavy Crossbow;
Space/Reach 5 ft./5 ft.;
SA crippling strike, sneak attack +5d6; SQ darkvision 60-ft., dwarf traits, evasion, improved uncanny dodge, trapfinding, trap sense +3, uncanny dodge;
AL CN;
SV Fort +5 (3 base, +2 Con), Ref +11 (7 base, +4 Dex), Will +3 (3 base);
Str 12, Dex 19, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 6.

Skills: Appraise +15 (13 ranks, +2 Int), Disable Device +15 (13 ranks, +2 Int), Hide +22 (+13 ranks, +4 Dex, +5 competence), Listen +15 (13 ranks, +2 Alertness), Move Silently +22 (13 ranks, +4 Dex, +5 competence), Open Locks +17 (13 ranks, +4 Dex), Search +15 (13 ranks, +2 Int), Spot +15 (13 ranks, +2 Alertness), Tumble +17 (13 ranks, +4 Dex), Use Magic Device +11 (13 ranks, -2 Cha).

Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload.

Possessions: +1 heavy crossbow, +2 mithril shirt of shadow and silent moves, Gloves of Dexterity +2, iron bands of binding, thieves’ tools, dungeon gear, 5 adamantine bolts, 10 cold iron bolts, 10 alchemical silver bolts, 40 normal bolts

Notes: Gareth’s AC didn’t appear to include the full armor value. You had your BAB listed as +8; it should be +7. That forced me to adjust the attack bonus for the crossbow. I calculate the Will save as +3, not +5.

NOTE - This is not updated with additional equipment and the most recent spells - I would do it, but it might not matter.

1b) I think that having a single person try to control four different characters is unnecessarily burdensome. Further, it isn't very entertaining for the audience. I would prefer, but not require that four people step up to run 'the party'. Stormbringer has volunteered as a 'second'. I'd like for CRKrueger to step up as a third. Rum Cove for a fourth?

1c) In the interest of fun, I think it would be worthwhile to allow each 'player' to make their own character. The rule is 'core only', not necessarily 'one character of each of the four most iconic classes'. Since Justin Alexander seems to be comfortable with multi-classing, I'd prefer, but not require that the player(s) make their own characters.

2) In the event that the players create their own characters, Kaelik will be allowed to pick a different monster (to avoid concerns of metagaming). This will be one of the creatures from his original list. I will suggest he choose a creature that will engage more quickly.

3) I will not consent to have my PMs reviewed by committee. It's not that I really care, but I have absolutely no way to prove that I'm revealing the PMs as requested, nor do I have any way of knowing if those PMs are used inappropriately by a third party. If I can't be trusted to adjudicate the match, then I can't be trusted to adjudicate the match - someone else acceptable to all parties will need to be chosen instead.

4) The 'action' will follow the PCs, which means Kaelik (and anyone reading this thread) will know what the PCs are doing. If it were the DM controlling the monster, he would have this same information, so it shouldn't cause any problems. I will enforce 'reasonable actions' from Kaelik. Effectively, the audience will be aware of what the party is doing, but will not know what Kaelik is doing until the party encounters him. Kaelik will agree (like any good DM would) not to take any action that would be unreasonable in the situation. Expecting interlopers falls into 'reasonable' category, and Kaelik will communicate any preparations he makes to the terrain (via PM) before the start of the scenario.

5) Part of Kaelik's original contention is that part of 'intelligent play' is picking skills and feats that work well with the monster in question. If Kaelik chooses a different monster (because the players are making new characters) I will allow him to pick skills that are appropriate for the monster (following standard rules) and will review suggestions for different feats on a case-by-case basis (I'd be unwilling to change Feats that appear to be due to gross physical features like 'Improved Natural Attack', but if he wants Combat Reflexes instead of Power Attack - it doesn't matter.

6) Anyone that participates agrees that quitting is a victory for the other side.

Does anyone have any problems with this? I have not yet seen Justin Alexander post in this thread - has he been notified?

Edit - And of course, just like with Jeff's Thunderdome (Panzerkraken vs. Mguy) the peanut gallery will be free to review my adjudicating and make suggestions when possible. Just like with Jeff's Thunderdome, however, the audience won't always know that a ruling has been called for in which case they can review it after the fact. In the event that a dispute arises to which I can't notify the audience, I will do my best to adjudicate fairly within the SPIRIT of the rules, and will seek consultation with other GMs on a neutral third site whose opinions on game rules I respect.

Marleycat · August 22, 2012, 04:16:31 AM

My brain just shut off! Words, so many words. Let them decide, you seem to be fair to me.

Fiasco · August 22, 2012, 04:16:56 AM

If we go with party individuals mode I don't mind stepping up. Happy to play any of he iconic 4 with core feats.

One caveat though. I really think this will work much quicker if JA runs all four. The delays in coordinating 7 people will slow this down even more than how Kaelik ran the bone devil.

jibbajibba · August 22, 2012, 04:24:35 AM

Cut the offline chats, all discussions should be here using spoiler tags so its clear to everyone. I totally think Justin is capable of not reading the tags.

A thunderdome when 80% of it occurs off-line is never going to conclude in a worthy way.

If it continues the MGuy haters are going to continue to accuse him of badgering the DM, trying to squirm round rules and all that palava. Transparency and Openess are critical for a genuine test.

The people that read this site are not stupid. If Justin's guys leap into the room where the Bone devil is hang from the ceiling invisible and choose their first action to coincidentially be peppering the ceiling with arrows of demon slaying we will all be able to see the bullshit.

Just play it out and man the fuck up