For the folks who haven't been following along, the "By The Book..." thread was sidetracked by a discussion of how terrible 3E's CR system is. Specifically, Kaelik claimed:

Quote from: Kaelik;555102It is not the case, according to the book, that PCs need to know about the Demon in advance or parlay with him or die. A Party of 4 level 9 PCs is supposed to have a 100% chance of defeating a Bone Devil. 100%. But instead they will lose and die.

There was a brief back-and-forth, then he posted a sketch of an encounter where four tenth-level characters set out to explore an undead-infested former lich lair, and died to a single Bone Devil in a dungeon. There were some quibbles with his initial lack of detail, and Spike eventually mounted a series of serious challenges to Kaelik's scenario. Eventually, someone reduced it to "put up or shut up," and suggested running through the scenario a couple times to see what the actual outcome was. I volunteered to referee, and Kaelik and Spike each agreed, so this thread will hopefully act as thunderdome.

Because the idea is not to actually run a roleplaying game, it's to test the rules / mechanics of one in a specific circumstance, this thread is in the forum for talk about games.

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Okay, so with that out of the way, here's how I'm recommending this goes down:
 - I pick a dungeon map which is a reasonable floorplan for a lich's lair
 - Kaelik looks at the map and gives me a rough "day in the life" schedule of what he's doing , in which rooms throughout the day
 - Spike picks a time to start his dungeon excursion and goes on in, poking and prodding away
 - I provide a progressively more revealed map to Spike, and eventually (based on the time of day, etc) one will spot the other, and get to react accordingly.

I recommend that most of this stuff just goes behind spoiler tags, so it's easier for anyone following along. If Kaelik and Spike aren't happy with that, I'll track it via PMs and repost the results after.
I see two things that still need to be hashed out:
 - How do you want to handle rolls?
 - What rules are you using (exactly)?
 - What does "core" party mean? I like the idea of pulling the four that Kaelik listed from the relevant DMG (but then, I'm also lazy).

The major problem you have using the four sample characters from the DMG is that they use (IIRC) NPC cash, so would need re-equipping. Other than that, that sounds reasonable to me (not that I have any say in the matter).

As always in these theoreticals any re-building runs into problems with how much rebuilding/relevant prep is reasonable and what prepared spells they have will also modify the scenario. I'm not sure how you fairly adjudicate that - but good luck.

EDIT: fixed to remove tips since I probably shouldn't help either side.

Quote from: fectin;556214I see two things that still need to be hashed out:
 - How do you want to handle rolls?
 - What rules are you using (exactly)?
 - What does "core" party mean? I like the idea of pulling the four that Kaelik listed from the relevant DMG (but then, I'm also lazy).

Three!  Three things that need to be hashed out...  

Most people like the Invisble Castle for online games, either real-time or PbP.  It's always available, and it keeps track of your rolls for you.

Example:
  5d6 → [6,3,1,4,3] = (17)

Setting up an account provides a campaign name and additional notes on the rolls.

YOU are the DM choosing the map and all, fectin? Hardly neutral, IMO.

I'm down to stat up a four member vanilla party (nothing fancy, just a fighter, a rogue, a cleric and a wizard... though I really do think Kaelik should do the wizard... for reasons explained).

Oh DM: How much cash should the pc's have for their magic goodies and what stat method do you prefer I use?

Quote from: StormBringer;556220Three!  Three things that need to be hashed out...  

Oops.

Quote from: Benoist;556221YOU are the DM choosing the map and all, fectin? Hardly neutral, IMO.

a) They each agreed.
b) I'm not deciding anything except the map, everything else is just applying the rules they select, and possibly arbitrating (not adjudicating) any disputes over how the rules work.
c) The specific map shouldn't make a lot of difference. My plan was to google around until I found a medium-size one that looked like an underground lab with spots for undead, or possibly go through my own disorganized piles.
d) Even if those points weren't true, Kaelik having argued in the past doesn't mean I'm going to sabotage him just for funsies. Suggesting that's a normal course of action says more about you than me.

Quote from: Spike;556223I'm down to stat up a four member vanilla party (nothing fancy, just a fighter, a rogue, a cleric and a wizard... though I really do think Kaelik should do the wizard... for reasons explained).

Oh DM: How much cash should the pc's have for their magic goodies and what stat method do you prefer I use?

Hey, I said I'd referee, not run it. You and Kaelik need to agree what an average core party looks like. If it isn't the pregens though, I'd suggest using the elite array, 49k gold each (3.5 WBL) and remember that part of the setup was that the party doesn't expect to run into the Bone Devil (i.e. if you optimize for fighting Devils, you may not be proving much).

I usually expect that "10th level" actually means "enough xp to be at 10th level," so you can use that to power item creation feats. Again, depends on Kaelik's concurrance that that's still "average core". You may want to avoid custom items though, if just to avoid arguments on them.

Well, I've established that I'm down with being sub-optimal, given that the bone devil is hardly the terrific threat that Kaelik made it out to be.

I can certainly make sure the party is optimized for an undead lair.

Quote from: fectin;556232Oops.

Just giving you the Spanish Inquisition.  

Hey, count me in for an arbiter, if needed.  I would like to see this thing through.

Also, a couple of suggestions:
Min, avg, and max hit points for the Bone Devil on three different trials.
Similarly, weak, avg and strong party.  Do the combinations and see what shakes out.

Somebody summon Windjammer.

Quote from: CRKrueger;556281Somebody summon Windjammer.

Anál nathrach,
orth' bhais's bethad,
do che'l de'nmha

Quote from: StormBringer;556282Anál nathrach,
orth' bhais's bethad,
do che'l de'nmha

I think you have to assume for the test that the PCs have consulted a sage and know there is a devil in the tombs.

This was something that Spike said he would do in a real game and that would explain the meta-knowledge of the party.
It also gives the party a chance to select appropriate spells.

Now I think you have to allow the 3e expedition to pick items (through magic marts) and spells in the 3e way which is to say selection and not random. You woudl need a methodology in terms of available cash/xp to spend on kit. I doubt the GD Posse will object as they have always supported that methodology on threads about limiting Wizards v Fighters. The forum should have the right to see the builds to keep them honest.

Now this will put the party at the top end of the power track. They know there is a devil and they they have had some Prep. To weigh it the other way I think it would be acceptable for Fectin to switch out the Bone Devil for another CR9 devil/demon on the basis that the Sage is unlikely to have have seen the creature and so is going on Hearsay. I say this because the Bone Devil was only ever one of a range of CR9 creatures that Kaelik claimed would toast a 10th level party. The unknownness should keep the party from coming in too laser focused and keep the test at least to some part impartial.

We have to remember that this is a in situ test and not an arena duel so to set the context to be one of a "dungeon" Fectin has the right to run it like a dungeon. He can spook the party with false encounters, he can chuck in environmental elements that could theoretically split the party is they run stupid. However, as its a test he can't arbitarily kill them with a Grimtooth trap, so sealing them in a room and flooding it with Green dragon breath is out as is dropping the ceiling on them with no warning.

Seem fair ?

Hey, I'm not up for a solo game of online D&D here... I have other hobbies to see too.

Beside, if that was the case, I'd probably geek my own rogue and replace him with something more fun...

In a quarter-century of D&D I've never done anything but dice for PCs, so I'm guessing the elite array mentioned is: 15/14/13/12/10/8?  It seems low for PCs, but I'll allow it's fair.   I'll have four posted tonight, complete with unnecessary back story... because I can.

Fighter 9d10 roll for hp
Cleric 9d8 roll for hp
Wizard 9d4 roll for hp
Rogue 9d6 roll for hp

Quote from: Spike;556317In a quarter-century of D&D I've never done anything but dice for PCs, so I'm guessing the elite array mentioned is: 15/14/13/12/10/8?  It seems low for PCs, but I'll allow it's fair.   I'll have four posted tonight, complete with unnecessary back story... because I can.

Fighter 9d10 roll for hp
Cleric 9d8 roll for hp
Wizard 9d4 roll for hp
Rogue 9d6 roll for hp

all in favour of unnecessary backstory.
would be hysterical if he party fail because the rogue has been sleeping with the fighter's wife though and they start arguing and get into a scrap half way down a dark corridor