The class balance thread (let's try to keep this one trolling free)

[Bedrockbrendan]

Just want to point out, while teleporting away to its home plane is entirely feasible, there is a chance of misteleporting if he comes back to the room or site of the battle (assuming it is on the pkayers homeworld). Repeatedly coming back and forth would probably be seen as taking needless risk.

And yes playstyle changes everything (how the monsters are played, why the encounter occurs in the first place, how much of a heads up the players have going in, how much pressure the gm puts on the pcs during combat....playstyle is very important to how these things resolve). Saying playstyle doesn't matter is a bit like arguing system doesn't matter. They both shape play at the table.

[Lord Mistborn]

Hilarious.

Please tell me how playstyle changes the fact that in 2e Pit Fiends have Fireball, Improved Invisibility, Advanced Illusion and Teleport Without Error as spell-like abilities at-will.

[Bedrockbrendan]

Playstyle effects how the monster uses its spells, if it uses its spells and when it used its spells. It also effects how prepared pcs are for the spells. Playstyle has a palpable impact on play.

[StormBringer]

Please tell me how playstyle changes the fact that in 2e Pit Fiends have Fireball, Improved Invisibility, Advanced Illusion and Teleport Without Error as spell-like abilities at-will.

"I am going to make an unsubstantiated positive assertion, and the burden of proof falls on everyone else to prove it wrong!"

[RandallS]

I does not matter how people play the game, I arguing facts about the rules not subjective playstyle bullshit.

Since I do not worship at the altar of RAW, all I can do is laugh at this statement.

A Pit Fiend can, with his SLAs repeatedly teleport ambush the fighter or fireball him to death from behind layered illusions.

You know, I never heard the term SLA you Denners came to this forum.

Playstyle does not change the underlying fact that Pit Fiends have Fireball, Improved Invisibility, Advanced Illusion and Teleport Without Error as spell like abilities at will because that's a fact not subject to opinions.

Except they are not "spell-like abilities at will" in TSR D&D. They are the ability to use those spells without having to memorize them. They are not cast instantly nor are they cast in addition to other actions during the round. If a Pit Fiend want to teleport, teleporting is his action for the round and changes are the teleport will come later in the round that the attack from the fighter. If he isn't teleporting between locations on his home plane, the normal teleport spell chances for coming in too high or too low apply.

In core 3e, it might work just as you say, but not in core 1e or core 2e. No matter how loudly and how often you shout "spell like abilities at will", in 1e or 2e that just is not so. 1e and 2e did not have these "spell like abilities at will" for GAME BALANCE reasons, just as 1e and 2e had many other restrictions on magic (than help keep magic in check for game balance) that 3e dropped.

[Lord Mistborn]

"I am going to make an unsubstantiated positive assertion, and the burden of proof falls on everyone else to prove it wrong!"

Wait are you seriously asking for prof the Pit Fiend has it's SLAs go look it up in you're monster manual

Playstyle effects how the monster uses its spells, if it uses its spells and when it used its spells. It also effects how prepared pcs are for the spells. Playstyle has a palpable impact on play.

The Pit Fiend has Advanced Illusion as an SLA now the DM can chose to ignore that and have the Pit Fiend stand next to a pile of level apropriate treasure untill the fighter walks up and starts smashing it with his hammer. If the monster is going to act like it's Genius (17-18) Intelect suggests then it's going to do what it thinks will kill the fighter with minimal risk to himself instead of acting like an MMO mob. This likely involves fooling the fighter with an elaborate web of illusions while burning him to death with fireballs.

When I fight creatures with at-will illusions I expect to have to nagivagte an elaborte web of decption and lies woven from magic. If I wanted to fight mobs I'd play World of Warcraft. Geez what happend to all that imagination and player creativity you guys were banging on about.

[Lord Mistborn]

Except they are not "spell-like abilities at will" in TSR D&D. They are the ability to use those spells without having to memorize them. They are not cast instantly nor are they cast in addition to other actions during the round. If a Pit Fiend want to teleport, teleporting is his action for the round and changes are the teleport will come later in the round that the attack from the fighter. If he isn't teleporting between locations on his home plane, the normal teleport spell chances for coming in too high or too low apply.

In core 3e, it might work just as you say, but not in core 1e or core 2e. No matter how loudly and how often you shout "spell like abilities at will", in 1e or 2e that just is not so. 1e and 2e did not have these "spell like abilities at will" for GAME BALANCE reasons, just as 1e and 2e had many other restrictions on magic (than help keep magic in check for game balance) that 3e dropped.

You're an idiot. SLA means spell like ability. It means the monster can cast that spell exactlly as If he had it prepared. at-will just means that Pit Fiend never runs out of his "spells". This isn't rocket surgery people if you don't know 3e stuff just look it up it's all up on the d20 SRD

[StormBringer]

Wait are you seriously asking for prof the Pit Fiend has it's SLAs go look it up in you're monster manual

I still don't know what 'SLAs' are.  Super Level Attack?
EDIT:  This was explained while I was posting.  Abbreviating everything is kind a pet peeve of mine.

Anyway, your positive assertion isn't what special abilities a Pit Fiend has; that's trivial to ascertain.  Your positive assertion is that they work in exactly this manner and will be used in precisely that manner, at every table for all time.  All the while failing to realize that you made the assertion, so you are responsible for providing the proof.

It seems to be something of a cultural marker for the Den.

[RandallS]

When I fight creatures with at-will illusions I expect to have to nagivagte an elaborte web of decption and lies woven from magic.

Not at will in 1e or 2e. Repeating this nonsense in every post does not make it true.

Also, the 2e 13th Level Dwarf fighter will save vs those illusions on a roll of 4 or higher, just like he will against any other spell the Pit Fiend casts. Heck, he'd save vs such spells cast by a 20th level or a 200th level or a 2000th level wizard. The power level of the caster doesn't affect the target's ability to save in 1e or 2e.

[One Horse Town]

When I fight creatures with at-will illusions I expect to have to nagivagte an elaborte web of decption and lies woven from magic. If I wanted to fight mobs I'd play World of Warcraft.

What you are describing is your prefered playstyle.

At this point i can only presume that you're trolling for lolz.

Now, why should i let this shit-stain of a thread remain open?

Maybe if you didn't do what you asked others not to do in your thread title, it might be worth saving. Maybe if your minions don't do another rush after this post it might be worth saving. Maybe if people who disagree with your prefered playstyle took a leaf out of Brendan's book, it might be worth saving.

[Panzerkraken]

What about his megalomaniacal overconfidence in his ability to crush the feeble mortals without using his full power?

Or his desire to toy with the pathetic meatbags before he devours their souls and sends them to his dark lord?

Or maybe he's in a game where the DM is using the Demons box set and he's granted his powers to his followers and so doesn't have access to them himself.

Most likely, if a party is going up against a Pit Fiend and knows it, they're aware of their abilities, and they're walking around with suitable countermeasures such as rings of fire resistance and periapts of true seeing.  They're going after a fairly high HD (20? Been a long time since I looked at those) outsider.  I would like to think they're properly equipped.  It's not like anyone over the age of 14 is just going to have a pit fiend sitting in the bottom of a hole next to a "level appropriate(? I would think it would be monster-appropriate, there's no accounting for level in the way you roll up treasure) pile of treasure"

[Lord Mistborn]

Not at will in 1e or 2e. Repeating this nonsense in every post does not make it true.

Also, the 2e 13th Level Dwarf fighter will save vs those illusions on a roll of 4 or higher, just like he will against any other spell the Pit Fiend casts. Heck, he'd save vs such spells cast by a 20th level or a 200th level or a 2000th level wizard. The power level of the caster doesn't affect the target's ability to save in 1e or 2e.

In this case it doesn't matter weather or not you disbelive in the Illusions they aren't there to hurt you just stop you from finding and trageting the Pit Fiend that's Fireballing you. Assuing you ever realize you dealing with a Pit Fiend or Illusions you don't get a disbelife saving throw automaticlly you need to suspect your facing illusions.

[RandallS]

You're an idiot. SLA means spell like ability. It means the monster can cast that spell exactlly as If he had it prepared. at-will just means that Pit Fiend never runs out of his "spells". This isn't rocket surgery people if you don't know 3e stuff just look it up it's all up on the d20 SRD

Why the hell should I care about 3e stuff when we are talking about a 2e Pit fiend battling a 2e 13th level dwarf Fighter?

[Lord Mistborn]

Well this is it. LM's big summation of  balance, fighters, wizards, 24 ton rock monsters, magic items, and everything since if we go further with the Pit Fiend OHT is going to lock the thread.

D&D is a game of fantasy, however some classes are by their nature supposed mundane. It's clear that the sorts of things people will accept the Fighter or Rogue doing are sharply limited. If the fighters and rogue really break out of human limitations especially if they're blatant about it then a section of the playerbase is going to riot and whine about weeaboo fightan' magic. The means the fighter class operates on hard limits, ones that other class do not.

The Monk has always been implemented badly but it's still totally possible to write a balanced Monk class that people can accept because the already practice quasi-supernatural martial arts. If the monk can jump 100ft in the air and punch a dragon in the face that still fits his conceptual space. If a fighter does that people will rage unless he's wearing boots of jumping 100ft and carrying a +2 sword of dragon stabbing.

The fighter especially at high levels was never really meant to be a completely mundane human. High level fighters where supposed to be mythic heroes. Hercules is after all one of the inspirations for the fighter class. That's very clear from the sort of monsters you're supposed to sword to death. It's had to see Spartacus hacking apart the 32ft tall 48'000 lb. Huge Earth Elemental, but it's easy to see Hercules doing it though. Hercules is not a mundane fighter of course he's half-god and his Strength is (Su). The thing is that in D&D the fighter has to start as Spartacus and eventually become Hercules.

 When I posted my example of the fighter hacking the Iron Golem to death there was resistance to that even though hacking Golems to death is one of the first examples people tend to bring up re:usefulness of the fighter at high levels. Someone was so uncomfortable with that example that they claimed the fighter wasn't really hacking up 5'000 lbs. of iron instead the magic in his sword was just disrupting the Golems animating force.

Which is a great time to segway into my next point, magic items. The idea of mythic heroes getting a lot of their powers from their equipment has a lot of traction. The problem is that it's really hard to implement in D&D. For one thing it requires a lot of cognitive dissonance to keep things balance if the Fighter need's his items he need's to be entitled to them and that makes a lot of people unhappy. It also clashes with the level based system, you have to wonder why the fighter is even tracking xp if the items he has matter so much more than his level. It also makes it really hard to have fighters as opponents. If once you have Excalibur you can also track down Cu Cuchulain and stab him to death and now also have his Gáe Bulg that could easily get out of hand. You also need a way for the fighter to not still fall behind the other martial classes with real superpowers like the Paladin and Ranger who presumably can also use those items.

What worries me the most is if future editions don't wise up. If they take what's in my view the worst possible route. If the fighter is just a normal guy and noone can be strictly better than him it puts the game in a vice and then starts to squeeze. You see alot of this in 4e where huge aspects of the game were removed in the name of keeping the fighter relevent. Leaving the fantasy in our fantasy game of choice feeling increadably unfantastic.

I've hinted a lot that I have my own fantasy heartbreaker in the works, based heavly on 3.5. In the end even with more blatently superhuman martial classes I had to cap characters at 13th level and revise spell lists a lot to get the game at a place where I could like the fluff and still have a balanced game.

[Bedrockbrendan]

All you are doing lord mistborn is asserting that all other playstyles result in Gms playing the monsters the way you expect monsters to be played in D&D. This is a silly notion. You are accustomed to games where the GM plays monsters like pieces in a game, metagaming their way to victory against the PCs. I am accustomed to games where Gms play monsters from the monsters point of view. Others are accustomed to games where the GM plays monsters to be a fun challenge. In the later case, they will see the monster's abilities as a roster of fun things to throw at a party during combat, but not neccesarily as things that have to be used. Some GMs try to play fair against the party and don't use monsters to their full potential (this is actually probably the most common style of Gming i have encountered even if it isn't my cup of tea). This is very simple. People play the game differently and with different ends in mind. This determines things like how a Gm plays monsters against a party. It has an effect. That fact is about as inescapable as 2+2 = 4

Now, i have said a pitfiend is a serious challenge. The fact that they get wish once per year makes them a super threat and I would be reluctant to send my 14th level dwarven anything against one for that reason alone. So I dont think dealing with a pitfiend is going to be a breeze if the Gm is playing full throttle. But you are talking as if all the uncertain outcomes here don't matter at all. It matters very much if the fighter disbelieves. It matters very much that the pitfiend cant telepot 100% accurately to a plane that isn't its own. What magic items the fighter happens to have will also be an enormous factor. And you cant just assume the thing will be invisible and have a maxed out illusion trap when the fight starts "just because". The initial fight set up will be entirely dependant on what is going on in the adventure. We dont have that info so we dont know what that is going to be. I think the pitfiend has a significant advantage in this encounter (as it frankly should) but you keep assuming the best possible outcomes for the pitfiend and the worst possible outcomes for the fighter,all the while focusing only on the weakest critcisms made by posters as you ignore the most substantial ones.