The class balance thread (let's try to keep this one trolling free)

[Sacrosanct]

Seriously think about the responses you've gotten since you started having the Pit Fiend use basic hit and run tactics.

You mean responses like, "No, you can't do that.  That's not how the rules work."?


Wow, you guys are something special, that's for sure.

[Lord Mistborn]

Serious question.  Are you functionally retarded?  Because if you are, then I know it's cool, you can't help yourself.  I'm pretty sure I already explained how spells work in 2e.  Yeah, I did.  The only explanation why you are still under this assumption that a pit fiend will cast invisibility and spam illusions instantly is that something is mentally deficient with you.

and so the flaming begins, why don't we get Benoist and his cronies in here to start calling people autistic because that's always helpful to discussion.

The Pit Fiend is invisible before you even enter there room because he can keep casting invisibility all day. When you enter the room then he has alot of options. What he probaly does is creat an illusion of fire that fills there room and blocks your line of sight. Hopfuly you realize it's an illusion and then don't take any damage form it (because unlike in 3e figments can do damage) then the Pit Fiend starts making illusions of monsters to hide behind while he casts spells (unlike in 3e illusions are not transparent if you disbelive them) so unless you have true seeing you burn to death from fireballs never even being able to locate the monster you're fighting.

[Sacrosanct]

OK, I'm done.  It's obvious that not only do you not have a clue as to how 2e works, you have no desire to figure it out because despite people telling you that's not how spells work, you keep ignoring it and repeating the same mistakes.

[jibbajibba]

For the third time:


Spells are not at-will to be cast instantly in 2e.  The caster has to win initiative and the spell goes off on its turn.  And that spell is interrupted if an attack lands.[/color]


This whole list of spells that you're saying the pit fiend is casting before fighter can even act is wrong.  And why do you constantly shift the goalposts by constantly changing the conditions to favor the demon?  Do you think a 15th level fighter would prepare as well?  You're allowing the demon to prepare, you can bet a fighter would as well.

For one, if I was that fighter, I'd be wearing glasses of true seeing.  At 15th level, I'm sure I'd have the resources to find/buy/ or borrow one.

So youi are agreeinhg with my point that if you use magic to narrow the gap beteeen mundanes and casters there should be a method by which the mundanes cvan get items they want to fill the gaps they see.
I am still not entirely convinced but interesting that a firm OSR guy holds that belief not just the 4e entitlement crew

[MGuy]

and so the flaming begins, why don't we get Benoist and his cronies in here to start calling people autistic because that's always helpful to discussion.

The Pit Fiend is invisible before you even enter there room because he can keep casting invisibility all day. When you enter the room then he has alot of options. What he probaly does is creat an illusion of fire that fills there room and blocks your line of sight. Hopfuly you realize it's an illusion and then don't take any damage form it (because unlike in 3e figments can do damage) then the Pit Fiend starts making illusions of monsters to hide behind while he casts spells (unlike in 3e illusions are not transparent if you disbelive them) so unless you have true seeing you burn to death from fireballs never even being able to locate the monster you're fighting.

Mist, seriously, it is no use talking to Sacro about how he's fucked up. He won't ever "get" the fact that monsters have spells or why they would do anything smart with them. Even with this explanation for how a monster would tactically use abilities to approach an encounter in relative safety he will not get it. Throwing logic at him won't work. Showing him what he said and how it contradicts other things he said on't work. You are just wasting your time responding to him because he is not interested in logic or critical thinking. Seriously he is like Storm's understudy.

Can we get back on topic please?

[Lord Mistborn]

You might as well put Sacro on ignore so you can stop responding to the same shit over and over. He is being almost exactly like Storm. Seriously think about the responses you've gotten since you started having the Pit Fiend use basic hit and run tactics.Think about how some of these people whined that Kaelik didn't immediately start face humping the party that entered his cave. Think about how spike whined that I had the nerve to use "Solid Fog" and how jeff complained that I didn't have fucking "fireball" on my spell list. Seriously when you are facing people who on the inside just want to kick wizards AND monsters in the nuts so their fighters can still matter then there is seriously nothing you can say to that. You can acknowledge that they hate when people with magic use their magic in any way that doesn't allow the fighter the chance to swing or sword or make use of his thumbs and move on.

I am going to assume that you made this thread NOT to argue about fighters but to share ideas about good game design. Could you please steer the conversation back in that direction?

Since Sarc. has stopped refuting my points I assume I finally nailed down something his fighter couldn't get out of without true seeing.

So the reason I started this thread was to get an idea what peoples ideas of game balance are, seeing what people where willing to accept the fighter doing, and see if One Horse Town was right about this form being able to discuss balance without trolling.

When writing a fantasy game the mundanes vs. magic question needs to be one of the first things you nail down. D&D as one of the first true rollplaying games in a way predates rpg design, so it's hard to have an answer to that question.

This thread has confirmed my suspicion that grognards will never be able to talk game design the way 3e players can. A big part of what the 3e online community does is think deeply about the rules. We acknowledged our systems problems a long time ago because the 3e era coincided with the rise of web 2.0 and 3e was subjected to a level of analysis that the older editions never were. The 3E folks have had this thread many times, and we've become increasingly efficient at it.

The thing is that people who love older editions realize that the new editions they hate where created by game designers in an attempt to fix problems in the editions they love. This causes them to latch on even tighter to their favorite edition. The end result is if someone points out a problem in the rules it goes over poorly. This has become increasingly clear from my conversation with Sarc.

Sarc: See the fighter can totally kick the Pit Fiend's ass.
LM: hmmm. the 2e Balor was a big disappointment let's look up the 2e Pit Fiend, Gosh its got quite the list of SLAs.
LM: So you can stab a Pit Fiend in the face what about a flying invisible Pit Fiend burning you to death with fireballs.
Sarc:Improved Invis. doesn’t work that way in 2e.
LM: Oh right it doesn’t, repeated teleport ambushes I guess
Others: Teleport ambushes are unfair
Sarc: ...
LM: well Maze of Illusion works too
Sarc: that's wrong and you're a retard.
LM: checks the 2e illusion rules then spells out the scenario fully
Sarc: ...

Edit: Next post is going to be a big one summing up everything I've argued in this thread so look forward to it

[deadDMwalking]

For the love of god deadDM just put StormBringer on your ignore list. I'm not sure if he's trolling or really that much of an idiot, it's probably both. Just stop, stop before you both get my thread locked.

I'll stop.  But it'll be hard when he starts his insufferable whining and claims victory.

[StormBringer]

But my point is that any 'reasonable' spell load will do that.  So if I prove one specific spell load, then you'll ask me to prove a different spell load.  Since there are an infinite number of possible combinations (or at least, really close to that depending on sources allowed) this would take the rest of my natural life.  Just pick a randomly generated spell list.  That will work.

:hatsoff:
This is what Denner 'good faith' looks like.  That's all for me, enjoy the veal, and don't forget to tip the waitstaff!

I'll stop.  But it'll be hard when he starts his insufferable whining and claims victory.

Like I did in the Bone Devil Thunderdome?

[StormBringer]

I'll stop.  But it'll be hard when he starts his insufferable whining and claims victory.

Like I did in the Bone Devil Thunderdome?

[Bedrockbrendan]

I'll stop.  But it'll be hard when he starts his insufferable whining and claims victory.

With all due respect, this is exactly what you guys are ding as well (some might even say this is all you guys are doing). The thread, like so many lately, is nothing but two sides screaming and claiming victory, interupted by occassional moments of reason. Claims that you somehow have the higher ground are pretty non sensical.

[StormBringer]

He is being almost exactly like Storm.

You mean showing how everything you say is almost always the exact opposite of 'correct'?

[RandallS]

Since Sarc. has stopped refuting my points I assume I finally nailed down something his fighter couldn't get out of without true seeing.

While I can't speak for Sarc, I suspect he has probably given up because NOTHING we can tell you about how 2e or other versions of TSR D&D are played seems to convince you that they do not work like 3e and do not have nearly the balance issues you have with 3e. This does not mean Sarc is admitting you are right (as you are not) but simply admitting that talking to you about it is a waste of valuable time. As far as I can tell you simply cannot handle rules and play styles different than 3e rules played in accordance with your favored style of play -- or perhaps "cannot" should be "will not".  

Perhaps you should take discussions like this thread's to TGD (or similar mainly 3e board) where you do not have to deal with people who prefer TSR D&D instead of 3e and do not have deal with people who prefer styles of play very different from those you expect. So long as you discuss it here and start general threads about "class balance" instead of specific threads about "class balance in 3e with charop players" you are likely to find them derailed by people talking about other editions of D&D and other styles of play.

[Lord Mistborn]

Like I did in the Bone Devil Thunderdome?

Yep, exactly like the thunderdome

[Lord Mistborn]

While I can't speak for Sarc, I suspect he has probably given up because NOTHING we can tell you about how 2e or other versions of TSR D&D are played seems to convince you that they do not work like 3e and do not have nearly the balance issues you have with 3e. This does not mean Sarc is admitting you are right (as you are not) but simply admitting that talking to you about it is a waste of valuable time. As far as I can tell you simply cannot handle rules and play styles different than 3e rules played in accordance with your favored style of play -- or perhaps "cannot" should be "will not".  

Perhaps you should take discussions like this thread's to TGD (or similar mainly 3e board) where you do not have to deal with people who prefer TSR D&D instead of 3e and do not have deal with people who prefer styles of play very different from those you expect. So long as you discuss it here and start general threads about "class balance" instead of specific threads about "class balance in 3e with charop players" you are likely to find them derailed by people talking about other editions of D&D and other styles of play.

I does not matter how people play the game, I arguing facts about the rules not subjective playstyle bullshit.

A Pit Fiend can, with his SLAs repeatedly teleport ambush the fighter or fireball him to death from behind layered illusions.

Now will the DM play the Pit Fiend that way is a question of playstyle. Playstyle does not change the underlying fact that Pit Fiends have Fireball, Improved Invisibility, Advanced Illusion and Teleport Without Error as spell like abilities at will because that's a fact not subject to opinions.

[One Horse Town]

I does not matter how people play the game, I arguing facts about the rules not subjective playstyle bullshit.

Hilarious.