In my Legion of Superheros campaign, I've instituted "hero points", which work, mechanically speaking, like conviction points in True20. Except that in addition to the normal re-roll function, they also allow a superhero to spend a hero point to be able to do something with his superpower that would normally be way beyond his power's limits.  This is a handy little mechanic to reflect how the power-limits in the comics tend to vary with the same hero depending on who's writing him, what the moment occasions, etc; or situations where a superhero does... something, as a solution to a problem/opponent, and you're left wondering "why the fuck doesn't he just do that all the time?!".

Anyways, I thought I'd mention it here since to me this mechanic is a good example of trying to design mechanics that fit with the one thing mechanics should be made to do: emulating genre.

RPGPundit

That's somewhat like the UA variant on action points, which lets you emulate a feat that you qualify for. That's nice for doing little tricks that you might not do all the time.

I've used Everway cards for this. We deal out three Everway cards to each player at random. And the player can change the story using the cards so in effect cards = points. They just need to justify the use.

And frankly it gives me a use for Everway...

Yeah, moral conviction has to have some weight in a superhero reality.  It's as much part of the rules of physics in those worlds as inertia or the periodic table ... more so, in fact.  Lieutenant Liberty's sense of Justice will trump Newton's Second Law any day of the week

I make that sort of moral conviction something that you have to put at stake:  You don't merely spend it, you say "Okay, I'm betting this token that I can win this conflict, because it's just that important!"  Then if the player loses anyway (which they sometimes will, especially when someone in the opposition also thinks it's vitally important, for different reasons) they get penalized in a number of ways, to show that they blew it on the big stakes.

I find that, with that modification, I don't have to worry at all about the balance of "How many of these tokens do I give to players?"  You can give them out like candy, and people still won't spend them on a whim, because of the downside risk of using them.

Works in my games.  Take it for what it's worth.

Quote from: RPGPunditThis is a handy little mechanic to reflect how the power-limits in the comics tend to vary with the same hero depending on who's writing him, what the moment occasions, etc; or situations where a superhero does... something, as a solution to a problem/opponent, and you're left wondering "why the fuck doesn't he just do that all the time?!".

Anyways, I thought I'd mention it here since to me this mechanic is a good example of trying to design mechanics that fit with the one thing mechanics should be made to do: emulating genre.

RPGPundit

Yay! Power stunts, found in Marvel Superheroes back in the 80's, and now in Mutants and Masterminds, Truth & Justice, and Hearts & Souls.

I'm wondering why your not using M&M since your using True20 and they're semi similar, but then I realize the obvious answer is likely the same as my own: Because M&M2E is more complex than True20.

However, how do you handle that with regards to the Adept role--who can borrow other powers temporarily?

Quote from: SilverlionYay! Power stunts, found in Marvel Superheroes back in the 80's, and now in Mutants and Masterminds, Truth & Justice, and Hearts & Souls.

Of the three, I haven't read hearts & souls, but its closer to Truth & Justice's than M&M's.  Its uncomplicated.

QuoteI'm wondering why your not using M&M since your using True20 and they're semi similar, but then I realize the obvious answer is likely the same as my own: Because M&M2E is more complex than True20.

Extremely so, especially for a game that's 1/2 sci-fi and where the players don't get to choose their powers.

But basically, any and all point-buy superpower systems I've seen are flawed by obsession with minutae of power-building.

QuoteHowever, how do you handle that with regards to the Adept role--who can borrow other powers temporarily?

That is an innovation from the latest version of True20 (the print version) which I find an utterly assinine addendum as a core rule (could be a good optional rule in some circumstances, But as a core rule it essentially ruins adepts for 9/10ths of all possible settings). Anyways, I don't use it in my current True20 game (Rome) which runs on the older pdf set of True20 rules.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditBut basically, any and all point-buy superpower systems I've seen are flawed by obsession with minutae of power-building.

Don't I know it.
I don't think "random" always works for supers myself, because people often have ideas of "oh I'd like to be a character LIKE..X" (Spiderman, Hulk, what have you) and those that don't have homages in their head will likely have a clear cut concept of their own. Random is useful in those cases where they don't--or want to try something new. But something between "I have an idea" and "oh I've got X points I need to spend" should be workable.

In H&S I skipped points. You write up a concept using established "Pitch" and the GM and player work to built it within the rules--because after many decades of superhero games I've discovered for me two things: If you give me points its either too few, or too many for my concept. Because of  the points sometimes being too few people try and squeeze every last drop from the points they have. This creates a "bookkeeping" style of gameplay I'm not a fan of.

On the other hand, H&S relies on built in aspects of play for play balance, and the expectation that people picking it up are not stupid, that they can decide what's appropriate for their campaigns in terms of abilities and powers. If your idea of X-men allows them to kick planets out of orbit--it may not be the X-men I know and love, but really as a game designer, its not my job to tell you how you should choose to limit your campaigns.

I aimed for spotlight time distribution over inherent "you can't be better than anyone else" Bergeronism. (Higher stats mean more success without setbacks--which means less time your PC is getting to be melodramatic, tense, etc.) this isn't for everyone of course.

QuoteThat is an innovation from the latest version of True20 (the print version) which I find an utterly assinine addendum as a core rule (could be a good optional rule in some circumstances, But as a core rule it essentially ruins adepts for 9/10ths of all possible settings). Anyways, I don't use it in my current True20 game (Rome) which runs on the older pdf set of True20 rules.

RPGPundit

Darn. I really wish the True20 rules of that kind had been printed (without the change, and without the settings--because I can't really stand most of them)


Albeit I got to play True20 last night and am the only "adept" at the table and may be happy for it (since its basically a basic fantasy game) I'm only likely to borrow certian themed powers tied to my adept (herbalist with animal/primal  style abilities--he calls on the Spirit of the Bear to be stronger, the Fox to be swifter, the Eagle to see better, or links to animal friends for various purposes.


My friend running it was considering how you'd stat Batman in true 20. (He'd be high level multirole I suspect) but its interesting to note that both the Expert's role ability and the Fighters are seemingly things Batman has done in various comics.

Quote from: PelorusI've used Everway cards for this. We deal out three Everway cards to each player at random. And the player can change the story using the cards so in effect cards = points. They just need to justify the use.

And frankly it gives me a use for Everway...

Tell me more... does the card interpretation have to reflect the task at hand?

Quote from: RPGPunditIn my Legion of Superheros campaign, I've instituted "hero points", which work, mechanically speaking, like conviction points in True20. Except that in addition to the normal re-roll function, they also allow a superhero to spend a hero point to be able to do something with his superpower that would normally be way beyond his power's limits.  This is a handy little mechanic to reflect how the power-limits in the comics tend to vary with the same hero depending on who's writing him, what the moment occasions, etc; or situations where a superhero does... something, as a solution to a problem/opponent, and you're left wondering "why the fuck doesn't he just do that all the time?!".

Anyways, I thought I'd mention it here since to me this mechanic is a good example of trying to design mechanics that fit with the one thing mechanics should be made to do: emulating genre.

RPGPundit

Awesome - I really like metagame mechanics like this.  They are really handy for reinforcing genre, and they let you reward players for acting within that genre.

How do you award these Hero points?  Are they bought with XP, or assigned, or awarded?  You can use them to encourage genre in another way by giving out points for doing things that make sense.  In Buffy for instance they can be awarded for coming up with a funny line or helping a hero get over their angst and get back to asskicking.  Maybe getting one for taking a villian to prison rather than killing them, or whatever is appropriate for your exact genre.

I find that sort of thing tends to produce a lot of "falsified roleplaying"; people trying to do a certain type of play just to get the points.

So no, players get one hero point per session, and one hero point every time they go up in level.  Players vote for who they felt was the best roleplayer at the end of each session, and that player gets extra XP, so in that sense you will be rewarded for being the best roleplayer in general, but I don't tie awards to any given action.

The rewards or penalties for being superheroic are within the roleplay itself; how the other legionairres will react to you, etc etc.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditI find that sort of thing tends to produce a lot of "falsified roleplaying"; people trying to do a certain type of play just to get the points.

But don't you want them to have a certain type of play?  Why is this inherantly a bad idea?  What makes it false?

QuoteSo no, players get one hero point per session, and one hero point every time they go up in level.  Players vote for who they felt was the best roleplayer at the end of each session, and that player gets extra XP, so in that sense you will be rewarded for being the best roleplayer in general, but I don't tie awards to any given action.

I do this too, only voting myself in the event of a tie.  Can't vote for yourself, and if it's unanimous you get 2 XP instead of 1.  I don't think this encourages a whole lot but it's a nice way for the players to recognize whoever has been doing a good job.

QuoteThe rewards or penalties for being superheroic are within the roleplay itself; how the other legionairres will react to you, etc etc.

True, and if that gets it done cool.  If not they can make for a nice carrot.  If you're worried that there will be a bunch of halfassed attempts to whore points, I haven't found that to be the case.  You don't get a point for half-assing it.  Buffy awards for making funny lines, so that's an easy rule.  If you make the table bust up you get a point, with a limit of 1 per session so the more outgoing players don't have too much advantage.  Exalted is similar, the stunt bonus is awarded for a cool stunt, not a halfass attempt.

Quote from: MaddmanBut don't you want them to have a certain type of play?  Why is this inherantly a bad idea?  What makes it false?

I want my players roleplaying a certain way because it makes sense for their character, not because they know that acting a certain way or saying a certain thing will get me to give them a "brownie point". That's "false roleplay".  Very quickly, offering this kind of thing turns into a business, where players wheel and deal with the Gm to try to get him to give them points, argue that they should get a point for having done x, that they really would do x in character its not just because they needed the brownie point, etc etc.

QuoteI do this too, only voting myself in the event of a tie.  Can't vote for yourself, and if it's unanimous you get 2 XP instead of 1.  I don't think this encourages a whole lot but it's a nice way for the players to recognize whoever has been doing a good job.

I've found it really does encourage good roleplay, without tying roleplay to one specific type of behaviour. I've seen a lot of players consistently get better at getting into their character, and while this would certainly happen without the xp award voting scheme, I think this motivates some players who would otherwise just glide through a session.

As for me, in my group I always vote and my vote counts for two votes. And yes, you can't vote for yourself.

QuoteBuffy awards for making funny lines, so that's an easy rule.  If you make the table bust up you get a point, with a limit of 1 per session so the more outgoing players don't have too much advantage.

Oh good god. That would be a nightmare... players all desperately trying cheesy one-liners constantly in the hopes of getting that point...

QuoteExalted is similar, the stunt bonus is awarded for a cool stunt, not a halfass attempt.

Again, this would lead to all kinds of needless stunting. Screw that.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditI want my players roleplaying a certain way because it makes sense for their character, not because they know that acting a certain way or saying a certain thing will get me to give them a "brownie point".

Why can't it be both?  If you go in to a nine-to-five job and give it your all, does expecting a pay-check mean that you aren't really dedicated to your job?  I don't think so, and I don't think that expecting to be rewarded for roleplaying your character is any different.

I mean ... do you complain that people who play D&D aren't really interested in killing monsters?  After all, they might just be doing it for the XPs, right?

Quote from: RPGPunditThat's "false roleplay".

Okay.  Also, it works.  Done right it gets consistent results, and folks have a ball at it at the same time.

Say you set your character up so that they get points every time your character sacrifices their interests in the name of forlorn love.  That's something you wanted to be in their character anyway, or else why would you have set your character up that way.

So when you play that character to the hilt, you end up sacrificing for love, which is both what they would do and what gets you points.  You get points.  Everyone else gets to see your character forlornly making themselves miserable.  Everybody wins.

Where's the downside?

Quote from: RPGPunditOh good god. That would be a nightmare... players all desperately trying cheesy one-liners constantly in the hopes of getting that point...

This is Buffy.  Lines like "Have I missed the exposition?" are perfectly in genre

Quote from: RPGPunditAgain, this would lead to all kinds of needless stunting. Screw that.

Again, this is Buffy

Hastur sums it up.  In Buffy you want people doing cheesy one-liners all the time.  In Exalted you want them trying crazy stunts all the time.  These are not bugs, they are features.  They are rather specific to those games and genres though - just because it's cool in one doesn't mean it'll work in another.  They need to be tailored to your game.