TheRPGSite

Creating this thread on request of Marley.

I've a number of issues with 3rd edition but I'm not going to waste this thread with those issues, or any issues I have with any edition. I'm just going to discuss the fantasy Heartbreaker that's still in its early stages of development. However its late right now so I'm going to just slap down a few of the building blocks before heading off to bed.

1) The game, both mechanics and the eventual setting, is predicated around the idea that "magic" is as fundamental to the make-up of the universe as "physics". Given that everything a person does no matter how mundane or complicated is as intertwined with "Magic" as everything that happens in our reality is predicated on "physics".

2) The more a person breaks physics or the larger the impact a given person has on the world means that they are, in one shape or another, gifted with magical powers. It does not matter what you refer to this power as (Chi, spells, power of personality, aura, your mom) it all interacts with the world at large and anybody who is a mover and shaker probably has some amount command of this force. Now while I am referring to it as magic here it is really "soul energy" and to the characters in my game "magic" will be a very distinct thing from the normal stuff you can do with this "soul energy". In order to keep things from being too confusing I'm going to refer this energy as Mana.

3) "Spells" such as they are follow a few distinct guidelines to keep them from being the end all be all in the game I'm crafting while still keeping with their traditional flavor.

A) Spells are garnered through what amounts to feats. Spells are about as hard to learn as a special sword technique. This keeps spells and sword techniques from being separated and allows players to choose to be martial or mystical in practice.

B) Spells do not replace skills. All out of combat (that is social, navigational, etc) abilities and special movements are covered with skills and spells can never replace them. Spells in fact force you to use the relevant skill in various fashions to make them work. This keeps people who use spells from kicking people who invest in skills in the nuts. What's more Spells that directly relate to skills only give you more options or ways you can use skills you already have. IE Invisibility allows you to hide when you have no covered. Other spells that out do other options (such as teleporting) come at higher action costs. IE Teleporting a short distance is better than moving there. Thus it has a higher action cost than just moving there.

C) Some magical things that are strictly better than other things do need to be held onto in order to hold to certain genre expectations. As such new and very restrictive limits are put in place to insure that nothing gets too ahead of in the game. Things like Summoning, Long term Mind Control, Teleporting long distances, divining things from various gods, magic item crafting, long distance scrying, traveling to different planes, etc are relegated to rituals and operate in such a way that the potential abuses are practically negligible.

4) Skills still exist and they give you a basic set of abilities expected to come with them.By my last count there are 27 skills (5 craft skills and 5 knowledge skills counted individually). The skill system in general has been changed completely.

A) Skills give certain distinct abilities that are general and broad.

B) Skills don't work on skill points but instead go up automatically like Base Attack Bonus. You pay into buying a certain tiers instead of paying individual skill points.

C) All classes, races, etc get the same number of skills. Skill allotment is not adjusted by anything other than level. Base Attack Bonus (called accuracy bonus now), combat proficiency, and casting proficiency are now all skills. (for non casters casting proficiency gives you access to rituals and magic item crafting).

5) Bonuses are all limited. You are only able to apply 5 bonuses to any rolls.  Attribute Bonus, Skill bonus, and up to three other modifiers may be added to any roll, check, and/or total. There is no limit to the penalties.

Well that's all I got for now so I'm gonna leave this here for now and add a bit more later.

Some interesting stuff I like spells as skills like GURPS and Fantasy Craft. So how does the feat thing work for spells? No lists/levels like traditional Dnd?

Quote from: Marleycat;558216Some interesting stuff I like spells as skills like GURPS and Fantasy Craft. So how does the feat thing work for spells? No lists/levels like traditional Dnd?

There are only 4 levels of spells. Higher level spells require you to have a number of the building spells to acquire. For example "Fire" is a basic spell. To get "Rocket", a third level spell, you need Fire and either "warp" or "force".

Getting the feat for a spell works as any other spell acquisition.

List wise there are still schools covered by the various fields of knowledge (of which there are 5 each with 4 basic spells under them). It gets just a tad more complicated from there but that's the basics. You do not need the knowledge skill to acquire spells. You can learn spells without knowing the specifics of how they work but any attempt to dispel/counter your spells automatically  succeed without you getting a roll.

So because I have to stay up for the night I can add a bit more here. Let's talk classes. I'm planning on having a base of 12 but am having difficulty choosing what the last class is going to be. There are 3 more in the making that are Campaign (Steam Punk) specific and will be waiting.

All the lasses have various class specific abilities that hep distinguish them from one another. I attempted to design the classes in a fashion that would promote players to fight in a particular fashion with each. The players of course are welcome to find ways to do as they wish however, I'm not married to the idea of forcing people to conform.

Examples include: The Barbarian who primarily gets a strength booster to start and various abilities that help him close distance with enemies and keep them close.

The Champion who gains a bunch of abilities that allow him to take more damage and enable him to take damage in place of allies.He also has a number of abilities that make it punishing for enemies to ignore him.

The Tactician who gains a bunch of abilities that allow him to use the resources of other team members to greater, and more directed, effect. For him coordinating is key though he can hold his own if forced to.

The Mage who gets a lot of Mana to power his abilities right off the bat. However his mana stores are limited so strategic use and resource management are key. He otherwise can use "spells" in ways no other class can.

And those are just a few of the examples. As you can see a lot of time was spent making combat grade abilities for each of the classes. This was intentional as there are a host of class specific sub abilities and skill abilities that I want to handle most non combat stuff including locating, navigating, and traveling.

I'm also building a framework on how contacts, land, organizations, and large buildings and vehicles are acquired and managed. Since I'm still hammering out the math in other areas of the game all I have is a general outline for that part of it.I'm also building this section to codify exactly how much your GM can "mess" with your stuff.

That's all for tonight though.

[note that I'll leave any differences over in the other thread and try to be constructive here].
 
The skill tiers thing sounds quite interesting - fantasy craft esque? And does applying a maximum of five modifiers replace the traditional 'stacking' system (so that modifier types needn't be assigned?) or supplement it? Interesting.
 
Curious as to how you're doing the 'soul energy' idea as well - I've seen a number of systems that had some sort of 'power' attribute for characters ? Or is it a purely level-dependent rating? If its a single thing, would a multi-class character (if there is such a thing) power all their abilities from the same energy 'pool'?

Not my cup of tea I fear.

Its designed backwards from the way i work.

I do  - in this world there would be people like this how would they play.

This does - I need classes that work like this to manipulate the different elements of the design space how woudl they fit into the game world.

Good luck with it though there can never be too many games.

Quote from: jibbajibba;558396Not my cup of tea I fear.
 
Its designed backwards from the way i work.
 
I do - in this world there would be people like this how would they play.
 
This does - I need classes that work like this to manipulate the different elements of the design space how woudl they fit into the game world.
 
Good luck with it though there can never be too many games.

True; I'm trying to imagine what a world with these classes in it would look like, where everyone has exceptional powers, and getting maybe a sort of Sheri S. Tepper vibe (not that I've actually read all of those).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Game

I can't help noticing that you put in a class whose job is even more literally to be a punching bag than any previous edition of D&D ever.

Or do I misunderstand a class who's defining power it taking damage in place of allies?

Quote from: MGuy;5580835) Bonuses are all limited. You are only able to apply 5 bonuses to any rolls.  Attribute Bonus, Skill bonus, and up to three other modifiers may be added to any roll, check, and/or total. There is no limit to the penalties.

This is going to end up being a problem in play.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;558395[note that I'll leave any differences over in the other thread and try to be constructive here].
 
The skill tiers thing sounds quite interesting - fantasy craft esque? And does applying a maximum of five modifiers replace the traditional 'stacking' system (so that modifier types needn't be assigned?) or supplement it? Interesting.
 
Curious as to how you're doing the 'soul energy' idea as well - I've seen a number of systems that had some sort of 'power' attribute for characters ? Or is it a purely level-dependent rating? If its a single thing, would a multi-class character (if there is such a thing) power all their abilities from the same energy 'pool'?

Supplement. Bonuses of the same type won't stack. I'm going to be very hard on the numbers so that designing the rest will be easier. If I can keep the numbers under control I won't have to worry about people finding ways to screw them.

The "soul energy" thing is going to be in both the fluff and the mechanics. All classes will have access to a mix of mana based and non mana based abilities. The amount of "Mana" they have can use in a given turn will be uniform across the entire system such that all classes/creatures/things at the same level can only use up to a fixed maximum amount on any given action at a given level. There will be absolutely NO abilities that break this so there won't be any shenanigans to try to get around it.

Right now all classes/creatures/things use Mana. There's a standard pool that everything has. The difference between them being whether or not they have extra pools (A'la Mage) or if they can just generate it quickly after use (Barbarian).

Quote from: jibbajibba;558396Not my cup of tea I fear.

Its designed backwards from the way i work.

I do  - in this world there would be people like this how would they play.

This does - I need classes that work like this to manipulate the different elements of the design space how woudl they fit into the game world.

Good luck with it though there can never be too many games.

Kind of. I'm thinking first of role/theme protection when doing classes. I want classes to be a general enough that one class can fit a bunch of archetypes but "protected" enough such that they "feel" different then when you play other classes. I'm not sure how I would be able to design a class based system for a generic fantasy game by starting in any other fashion.

Quote from: Spike;558408I can't help noticing that you put in a class whose job is even more literally to be a punching bag than any previous edition of D&D ever.

Or do I misunderstand a class who's defining power it taking damage in place of allies?

Nope. You are not mistaking at all. The Champion's job on the battlefield is primarily to defend others. He can, of course, hold his own when there's nothing to defend but I wanted to make a character class who could actually perform the "defender" role at all. I wanted to make classes that feel and play different so having a class play defense shenanigans fits into that.

Quote from: StormBringer;558462This is going to end up being a problem in play.

Details please.

Quote from: MGuy;558579Details please.

Now game design isn't my thing....

Quote5) Bonuses are all limited. You are only able to apply 5 bonuses to any rolls. Attribute Bonus, Skill bonus, and up to three other modifiers may be added to any roll, check, and/or total. There is no limit to the penalties.

But this can get way out of balance so much so that players will either bonus hunt like crazy or be too petrified to try anything with a risk.

Quote from: Marleycat;558581Now game design isn't my thing....But this can get way out of balance so much so that players will either bonus hunt like crazy or be too petrified to try anything with a risk.

People already bonus hunt. That's how you get Cleric Archer builds and other shit from CharOp boards. With this I harshly limit the amount of bonuses they can accrue no matter how hard they hunt for them.

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean when you say they will refrain from trying anything risky.

Quote from: MGuy;558588People already bonus hunt. That's how you get Cleric Archer builds and other shit from CharOp boards. With this I harshly limit the amount of bonuses they can accrue no matter how hard they hunt for them.

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean when you say they will refrain from trying anything risky.

You said there is no limit to penalties so anything risky may give a penalty and at a certain point it's just safer to stay with the "red shirts" and "10 foot pole" mode of play. Which isn't a bad playstyle but heroic it isn't. At least as commonly defined.

Quote from: Marleycat;558591You said there is no limit to penalties so anything risky may give a penalty and at a certain point it's just safer to stay with the "red shirts" and "10 foot pole" mode of play. Which isn't a bad playstyle but heroic it isn't. At least as commonly defined.

It is a little asymmetric - though I'd hope that the cases where a dozen penalties apply are going to be fairly rare? May just need to be careful that penalties given out by attack powers are typed, so that its harder to produce opponents that repeatedly give out penalties until the target is helpless.
 
In general there could be abilities that provide penalty mitigation as well as bonuses, so that a PC can have an ability that reduces some of the penalties (for a specific situation perhaps)?

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;558598It is a little asymmetric - though I'd hope that the cases where a dozen penalties apply are going to be fairly rare? May just need to be careful that penalties given out by attack powers are typed, so that its harder to produce opponents that repeatedly give out penalties until the target is helpless.
 
In general there could be abilities that provide penalty mitigation as well as bonuses, so that a PC can have an ability that reduces some of the penalties (for a specific situation perhaps)?

As I said game design isn't my thing but that is something that jumps out at me. I do hope that what you listed would be in play though. It's not a critisim just a bit of feedback.

Quote from: Marleycat;558599As I said game design isn't my thing but that is something that jumps out at me. I do hope that what you listed would be in play though. It's not a critisim just a bit of feedback.

Not picking on you. Its not everyone's thing. Despite that I thought you raised an interesting point, just that its hard to say if its correct or not based on the game outline we have here so far.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;558598It is a little asymmetric - though I'd hope that the cases where a dozen penalties apply are going to be fairly rare? May just need to be careful that penalties given out by attack powers are typed, so that its harder to produce opponents that repeatedly give out penalties until the target is helpless.
 
In general there could be abilities that provide penalty mitigation as well as bonuses, so that a PC can have an ability that reduces some of the penalties (for a specific situation perhaps)?

Hit it on the nose. Yes, penalties given from the same source or the same thing also don't stack. So if you have two situation specific penalties (Fighting Underwater/ Squeezing in a corridor) only the largest of that set of penalties will be applied. Likewise penalties (and general effects) of abilities do not stack. For example if two people use "obscuring mist" the effects don't stack. They just provide one general effect.

However it IS possible for teams to levy different kinds of penalties such that they can stack them and there are various abilities that mitigate various kinds of penalties. This encourages people to combo different abilities onto a target or targets and encourages the collection of penalty mitigating abilities.

Quote from: MGuy;558579Details please.

Quote from: Marleycat;558581Now game design isn't my thing....But this can get way out of balance so much so that players will either bonus hunt like crazy or be too petrified to try anything with a risk.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;558598It is a little asymmetric - though I'd hope that the cases where a dozen penalties apply are going to be fairly rare? May just need to be careful that penalties given out by attack powers are typed, so that its harder to produce opponents that repeatedly give out penalties until the target is helpless.
 
In general there could be abilities that provide penalty mitigation as well as bonuses, so that a PC can have an ability that reduces some of the penalties (for a specific situation perhaps)?

It doesn't matter whether bonuses or penalties are unlimited, it will cause problems.  Five bonuses worth +1 each are canceled out by three penalties worth -2 each, but the penalties can keep rolling in.  And it gets even worse if we take the opposite of BSJ's penalty mitigation and instead apply a bonus mitigation.  Now you have five bonuses, but one or more of them might not even apply, while the penalties can keep accruing normally.  So you will have to switch out the mitigated bonus for something that isn't going to be mitigated.  Which may not even be something you can do during or immediately prior to combat.  The Cleric casts bless on the party (in addition to four other bonuses already in place), but the opponent has an unholy aura that negates it.  Now they are stuck with a bonus they can't switch out immediately, and their bonus 'slots' are still filled.  The Fighter would reasonably already have a Strength bonus (or some other bonus in combat) that is inherent to the class and can't be switched out under any circumstances.

Some general advice

Quote from: MGuy;558571Supplement. Bonuses of the same type won't stack. I'm  going to be very hard on the numbers so that designing the rest will be  easier. If I can keep the numbers under control I won't have to worry  about people finding ways to screw them.

Quote from: MGuy;558579I'm also building this section to codify exactly how much your GM can "mess" with your stuff.

It really isn't your job to make sure people play your game the "right" way.  That is a Forge-ism of the highest order.  Make a solid set of rules that stand on their own, and don't worry about how people will use them.  Unless you are going to make a boardgame.  Those can be much stricter with the rules.

Quote from: MGuy;558574Kind of. I'm thinking first of role/theme protection  when doing classes. I want classes to be a general enough that one class  can fit a bunch of archetypes but "protected" enough such that they  "feel" different then when you play other classes. I'm not sure how I  would be able to design a class based system for a generic fantasy game  by starting in any other fashion.

Don't do this, either.  4e did this explicitly, and it blew up in their faces.  Unless you want to write a heavily narrative story game, you shouldn't be thinking of 'role' protection.  Players will take on the roles they want to take on, all you have to do is provide archetypes.

And very broadly, read up on some game theory, but don't worry too awful much about Nash.  It's good to be familiar with his work, but he wasn't writing that with an eye towards rpgs, boardgames, or any other recreational activity.  A Wikipedia-eye survey of other fantasy games from the early days until now would also be helpful in order to avoid common pitfalls and draw from the 'best practices' they have to offer.

@Stormbringer, I told you I know between jack and shit about game theory and making a game but you explained my worry about the asystemetrics of the bonus/penalty thing better than myself. It just seems off in a way I can't explain.

@Mguy, he is giving you good advice with no snark and that sir was the point of my request.  By the way, I'm flattered you took it. This thread is without snark and that was my goal because you're a gamer like myself right.:)

An easy way to do what you're doing would be to limit things to three bonus/penalty types. I would suggest circumstance/terrain, powers/features, and conditions or equipment. All depending on the rest of your system of course.

I can definitely relate to wanting to minimize this kind of bonus/penalty mongering. But the top down rule isn't going to fix everything no matter how good it is. The devil's going to be in the details.

Quote from: StormBringer;558664It doesn't matter whether bonuses or penalties are unlimited, it will cause problems.  Five bonuses worth +1 each are canceled out by three penalties worth -2 each, but the penalties can keep rolling in.  And it gets even worse if we take the opposite of BSJ's penalty mitigation and instead apply a bonus mitigation.  Now you have five bonuses, but one or more of them might not even apply, while the penalties can keep accruing normally.  So you will have to switch out the mitigated bonus for something that isn't going to be mitigated.  Which may not even be something you can do during or immediately prior to combat.  The Cleric casts bless on the party (in addition to four other bonuses already in place), but the opponent has an unholy aura that negates it.  Now they are stuck with a bonus they can't switch out immediately, and their bonus 'slots' are still filled.  The Fighter would reasonably already have a Strength bonus (or some other bonus in combat) that is inherent to the class and can't be switched out under any circumstances.

You've got me scratching my head here. There are two things you can be suggesting that Unholy Aura does. It either A: Gives you a penalty equal to the bonus you get with Bless or B: Makes it so that you can't get a bonus from Bless at all.

If A applies you're worse off without the bonus.

If B applies then you just don't have the bonus at all and may get another bonus in its place.

QuoteIt really isn't your job to make sure people play your game the "right" way.  That is a Forge-ism of the highest order.  Make a solid set of rules that stand on their own, and don't worry about how people will use them.  Unless you are going to make a boardgame.  Those can be much stricter with the rules.

Rules always shape the way people play the game. I haven't presented a "right" way to play the game I'm presenting a set of rules for things that generally come up during play. Various rules encourage/discourage certain styles of game play whether intentional or not. I'm aiming to make it so that as many play styles may be covered by my rules as possible so that DMs don't have to do as much houseruling.

QuoteDon't do this, either.  4e did this explicitly, and it blew up in their faces.  Unless you want to write a heavily narrative story game, you shouldn't be thinking of 'role' protection.  Players will take on the roles they want to take on, all you have to do is provide archetypes.

Fighters in earlier editions of the game on up to 3rd edition are concentrated on fighting. Thus when people play a fighter they expect to be able to fight the best and expect that some other class doesn't show up with a sword and fight better than they do.That is why people don't like the Cleric Archer. My classes are more general than that in that while they encourage you to play a certain way you don't have to. Champions are the best at defending people but as I mentioned, they can hold their own in a straight up fight. Why? Because they get a mix of abilities that allow them to pump up their own defenses along with abilities that allow them to take damage for others. So if a player wants to be a solo Champion, going off to brave dungeons on his own, he can choose an ability set that just makes him more indestructible and make it on his own. You read role protection but not "theme" protection. I want the Champion to be a good choice for a defender because that fits the theme of the chivalrous knight and the bodyguard. So I made him able to actively force enemies to damage him. The Barbarian can likewise fill the gap except that he does so by yanking opposition to him or charging his way to them, making sure to be a general nuisance not likely to be ignored. He however can't force enemies to target him instead of another making him the not the optimal choice for the job. He's a solid choice but not the optimal one.

QuoteAnd very broadly, read up on some game theory, but don't worry too awful much about Nash.  It's good to be familiar with his work, but he wasn't writing that with an eye towards rpgs, boardgames, or any other recreational activity.  A Wikipedia-eye survey of other fantasy games from the early days until now would also be helpful in order to avoid common pitfalls and draw from the 'best practices' they have to offer.

I have read a bunch of game theory stuff. I've read and played a bunch of different systems. I've asked friends about what they liked/disliked about various game experiences. I have a good idea about what I want out of my game and the feel I'm going for.

Quote from: Marleycat;558674@Mguy, he is giving you good advice with no snark and that sir was the point of my request.  By the way, I'm flattered you took it. This thread is without snark and that was my goal because you're a gamer like myself right.:)

I'm glad that you are flattered. It was a simple request and, though my idea is still very much in the works I'm not afraid to throw my ideas out there upon request.

Quote from: beejazz;558675An easy way to do what you're doing would be to limit things to three bonus/penalty types. I would suggest circumstance/terrain, powers/features, and conditions or equipment. All depending on the rest of your system of course.

I can definitely relate to wanting to minimize this kind of bonus/penalty mongering. But the top down rule isn't going to fix everything no matter how good it is. The devil's going to be in the details.

I know that bonus accruing can get a little hectic which is why I limited them but it has been my experience that not many groups seek a lot of ways to slam penalties on someone. Most people go bonus hunting or go directly for damaging or combatant removal abilities. Even if they do (go penalty hunting), it'll eat of actions to do so without making things hopeless. If that's the case then I'm not losing anything in round length or strategic depth of the game.

Quote from: MGuy;558679I'm glad that you are flattered. It was a simple request and, though my idea is still very much in the works I'm not afraid to throw my ideas out there upon request.

Best thing in the world was to throw it out there. We all love games, math maybe less(lot less in my case). But good advice will be there, up to you whether you incorporate it or not. :)

As a personal note I find the very idea of a 'punching bag' class somewhat offensive.  I won't go so far as to suggest people won't play it (I know guys in WoW who love to play tanks, though I'm gonna guess that 'taking damage' isn't actually the appeal there... maybe it's playing an actually crucial role that is relatively uncommon, utilizing a number of social factors that are mitigated, if not entirely absent on a table top), but it is somewhat immersion breaking. How do you conceive of a guy who goes through life with the PLAN on getting hurt. 'Man, bobby just fell out of a tree. I wish I could have broke my arm for him!'?


As a mechanical element regarding bonuses and penalities: Your entire system is balky.  My suggestion would be to only take the biggest bonus available and/or the biggest penalty.  A few exceptional edge cases (plusses on weapons/armor in the D&D sense, for example... you could make it a singular exemption for 'permanent' bonus/penality providers) could exist.

The more complex the rules, the more likely people are to ignore or forget them, and then you'll also have people playing the bonus minigame as well.

Quote from: Spike;558700As a personal note I find the very idea of a 'punching bag' class somewhat offensive.  I won't go so far as to suggest people won't play it (I know guys in WoW who love to play tanks, though I'm gonna guess that 'taking damage' isn't actually the appeal there... maybe it's playing an actually crucial role that is relatively uncommon, utilizing a number of social factors that are mitigated, if not entirely absent on a table top), but it is somewhat immersion breaking. How do you conceive of a guy who goes through life with the PLAN on getting hurt. 'Man, bobby just fell out of a tree. I wish I could have broke my arm for him!'?


As a mechanical element regarding bonuses and penalities: Your entire system is balky.  My suggestion would be to only take the biggest bonus available and/or the biggest penalty.  A few exceptional edge cases (plusses on weapons/armor in the D&D sense, for example... you could make it a singular exemption for 'permanent' bonus/penality providers) could exist.

The more complex the rules, the more likely people are to ignore or forget them, and then you'll also have people playing the bonus minigame as well.

I can easily conceive of a guy who's plan is to save other people from getting hurt. When you play a Champion your plan isn't to make sure you break a leg for today. Your plan is to make sure no one on your team breaks any legs. Your legs are made of iron so you are less likely to even start to limp. Protecting other people is what bodyguards do. Its something that comes with the job. Why do you think movie depictions of secret service agents have them pile on the POTUS the instant a gunshot is fired or an explosion occurs? I'm actually not sure how you find it hard to believe that there's a person who specifically guards everyone else when that's the generic assumption when you think of front-line fighters protecting squishy wizards in DnD.

AS for bonuses/penalties: 5 bonuses are all you get and at least 2 of the 5 will be on your character sheet before you even "do" anything to find others. Then there are specific weapon/armor bonuses. If you have that it will be on your character sheet as well and be 3 out of 5. Situation bonuses already have you looking for the largest out of them because situation bonuses don't stack. So that leaves players with basically looking for maybe 2 more bonuses.

At worst the penalty stacking could get ridiculous at higher levels. That's a big maybe but still a legitimate danger. If I find penalties to be getting out of hand I'll shackle a limit onto them but, in theory, I don't expect it to be an issue.

Since I don't care and bored which avatar would you rather see? Garbage or No Doubt?  It's up to you guys. :)

Sorry, I should have made a thread or a poll. Hmm...a poll should I do it?

Quote from: MGuy;558678You've got me scratching my head here. There are two things you can be suggesting that Unholy Aura does. It either A: Gives you a penalty equal to the bonus you get with Bless or B: Makes it so that you can't get a bonus from Bless at all.

If A applies you're worse off without the bonus.

If B applies then you just don't have the bonus at all and may get another bonus in its place.

Except you wouldn't really be eligible for another bonus according to your previous post.  If you can have five bonuses, two of them 'locked in', there are only three slots left.  Let's call one a bonus from a magic weapon, another some kind of class feature bonus, and the last one is the bless spell but it gets negated; you have a slot filled until the spell runs out meaning the player not only loses the bonus, they can't replace it with another one.  

The same is true of the skill/feat bonus, of course, but that is a somewhat separate issue, although it still limits the number of 'free slots' available for other uses, perhaps temporary boosts or buffs.  And if there is something that negates that bonus, the player is really stuck, because they really shouldn't be replacing that on the fly, unless you plan on using something like stances or kata.  Those can be switched out from round to round, presumably, and add to tactical options in a dynamic fashion.

But you still have the problem where penalties can outstrip bonuses, even if the GM isn't a dick.  Goblins inflict a penalty of -2 because they flank everyone due to size, they use nets/ropes/tanglefoot bags and impose another -2, plus the terrain is rough and covered in loose stones for another -2.  Not unreasonable penalties, and there are only three of them.  The Champion has a +1 from an Attribute, +1 from swording Skill, +1 from bless, +1 magic weapon, +1 from Champion's Precision or whatever.  The Champion is done with bonuses, and they can only really swap out the magic weapon by their own volition.  The bless spell just has to run out on its own, and presumably they can't stop using the feat, the Attribute or the Skill.  So the Goblins already have this character at a -1, and they can only go up from there.

I am not saying the players must always have a bonus, but the penalties keep racking up while the bonuses are capped.  It's like the AC discussion a while back; if you allow AC to increase without limits, you have to do the same with attack bonuses, or creatures will simply be immune to being hit, no matter what the players do.  If the AC is 45, the players should reasonably have some way to get at least +25 from various sources.  Not at 1st level, certainly, but by the time they are facing off against creatures with a 45 AC.  This leads to another problem, where the numbers escalate to the point where the randomizer is pointless, but that is a separate issue you may never run into.

 

QuoteRules always shape the way people play the game. I haven't presented a "right" way to play the game I'm presenting a set of rules for things that generally come up during play. Various rules encourage/discourage certain styles of game play whether intentional or not. I'm aiming to make it so that as many play styles may be covered by my rules as possible so that DMs don't have to do as much houseruling.

Rules can guide the way people play the game.  As much by their disuse as their use.  Many groups don't use spell components, so you can't say the rules are affecting the way they play.  It's a dynamic system.  They players have as much agency to craft the game as the original designers.  Outside of your own group, I will guarantee almost no one will use the rules you present in toto.  The rules don't always shape they way people play, because most of the time, there is a certain volume of rules that simply won't be used.

This is designing the game to be played the 'right' way:

Quote from: MGuy;558571If I can keep the numbers under control I won't have  to worry about people finding ways to screw them.

Quote from: MGuy;558390I'm also building this section to codify exactly how much your GM can "mess" with your stuff.

If that is what you are worried about, you should take a step back before writing a game for public consumption.  These are absolutely not thigns you should be trying to code into the rules, because it will blow up in your face utterly without fail.  The GM can always pretty much do what they want.  Your rules won't stop them.  And players in general will always find ways to screw with your numbers.  You can't stop that either.  Don't try.  I promise you, it will fail every time.

QuoteFighters in earlier editions of the game on up to 3rd edition are concentrated on fighting. Thus when people play a fighter they expect to be able to fight the best and expect that some other class doesn't show up with a sword and fight better than they do.

And in earlier editions, that was more or less absolutely true.

QuoteThat is why people don't like the Cleric Archer.

That isn't entirely why people don't like the Cleric Archer.

QuoteChampions are the best at defending people but as I mentioned, they can hold their own in a straight up fight. Why? Because they get a mix of abilities that allow them to pump up their own defenses along with abilities that allow them to take damage for others.

These should be tactical choices any player can make, not hardcoded on the character sheet.  If my Cleric jumps between the Fighter and the spear trap (or whatever), the Cleric will take damage for the Fighter.

This is why designing for the 'role' instead of the 'archetype' will lead you astray.  You are already pretty deep into assigning abilities and powers that will allow a specific class to fill a specific 'role', essentially blending the two.  You don't need both.  Also, you are on the threshold of re-creating 4e if you continue along that path.  Well, maybe some of the worst excesses of 3.x and Prestige Classes.

QuoteSo if a player wants to be a solo Champion, going off to brave dungeons on his own, he can choose an ability set that just makes him more indestructible and make it on his own.

Then why have other players at all?  Niche protection makes sure one class fulfils its 'function', but more importantly, it makes sure no class fulfils every function.  That's the critical part, the 'negative space' that you can't see, but is every bit as important to art or engineering.

QuoteYou read role protection but not "theme" protection. I want the Champion to be a good choice for a defender because that fits the theme of the chivalrous knight and the bodyguard.

Sure.  For you.  Presumably, you are making this game for people who are not you.  For them, a good choice for the 'theme' of a chivalrous knight and bodyguard is a person who is chivalrous, attains knighthood, and guards people.  They don't necessarily want or need a Champion with hardcoded rules to fit the 'role' of defender.  Again, 4e already did this.

QuoteSo I made him able to actively force enemies to damage him. The Barbarian can likewise fill the gap except that he does so by yanking opposition to him or charging his way to them, making sure to be a general nuisance not likely to be ignored. He however can't force enemies to target him instead of another making him the not the optimal choice for the job. He's a solid choice but not the optimal one.

The solid choice is the one the players decide on and pursue, not the one you hardcode into the class abilities.

QuoteI have read a bunch of game theory stuff. I've read and played a bunch of different systems. I've asked friends about what they liked/disliked about various game experiences. I have a good idea about what I want out of my game and the feel I'm going for.

So, this brings up the most important question in the thread.  Are you designing this for you and your friends, or the general public?

Quote from: Marleycat;558674@Stormbringer, I told you I know between jack and shit about game theory and making a game but you explained my worry about the asystemetrics of the bonus/penalty thing better than myself. It just seems off in a way I can't explain.

:hatsoff:

Quote@Mguy, he is giving you good advice with no snark and that sir was the point of my request.  By the way, I'm flattered you took it. This thread is without snark and that was my goal because you're a gamer like myself right.:)

And again...
:hatsoff:

Quote from: Marleycat;558713Since I don't care and bored which avatar would you rather see? Garbage or No Doubt?  It's up to you guys. :)

Garbage.  No Doubt is to music what the Back Street Boys are to music.

:D

Quote from: StormBringer;558719Garbage.  No Doubt is to music what the Back Street Boys are to music.

:D

But Gwen isn't.  Just sayin'.  I should make a poll. "Girl or Cat".They are both female so whichever is cool.:)

Quote from: StormBringer;558714Except you wouldn't really be eligible for another bonus according to your previous post.  If you can have five bonuses, two of them 'locked in', there are only three slots left.  Let's call one a bonus from a magic weapon, another some kind of class feature bonus, and the last one is the bless spell but it gets negated; you have a slot filled until the spell runs out meaning the player not only loses the bonus, they can't replace it with another one.  

If its negated it no longer exists. That's If you have bless on you, and its dispelled, you no longer benefit from "bless" thus there is no longer a bonus taking up the bonus spot that bless took up because bless is no longer active.

QuoteThe same is true of the skill/feat bonus, of course, but that is a somewhat separate issue, although it still limits the number of 'free slots' available for other uses, perhaps temporary boosts or buffs.  And if there is something that negates that bonus, the player is really stuck, because they really shouldn't be replacing that on the fly, unless you plan on using something like stances or kata.  Those can be switched out from round to round, presumably, and add to tactical options in a dynamic fashion.

Again, if a bonus is "negated" then it ceases being a bonus. If by negation you mean that the bonus the ability gives is taken away. If you mean "negated" such that there is a penalty that overshadows it then you'd just be worse off if you don't have the bonus reducing the effectiveness of the bonus.

QuoteBut you still have the problem where penalties can outstrip bonuses, even if the GM isn't a dick.  Goblins inflict a penalty of -2 because they flank everyone due to size, they use nets/ropes/tanglefoot bags and impose another -2, plus the terrain is rough and covered in loose stones for another -2.  Not unreasonable penalties, and there are only three of them.  The Champion has a +1 from an Attribute, +1 from swording Skill, +1 from bless, +1 magic weapon, +1 from Champion's Precision or whatever.  The Champion is done with bonuses, and they can only really swap out the magic weapon by their own volition.  The bless spell just has to run out on its own, and presumably they can't stop using the feat, the Attribute or the Skill.  So the Goblins already have this character at a -1, and they can only go up from there.

Yes, the penalties can outstrip the bonuses. However the penalties they've wracked up are well earned and I wouldn't want combat to go any other way where the PCs are caught in a tight spot. The fact that the goblins have to do all this (catch the PCs in bad terrain, net them, and out number them) just to get a -1 means that I, as the DM can ambush the pcs, put them on horrible footing, and not have the battle be hopeless (just as planned). Now if the goblins have to then spend combat rounds not attacking but improving their advantage somehow then that means that it was worth using deeper tactics to do so (which is also good).

QuoteI am not saying the players must always have a bonus, but the penalties keep racking up while the bonuses are capped.  It's like the AC discussion a while back; if you allow AC to increase without limits, you have to do the same with attack bonuses, or creatures will simply be immune to being hit, no matter what the players do.  If the AC is 45, the players should reasonably have some way to get at least +25 from various sources.  Not at 1st level, certainly, but by the time they are facing off against creatures with a 45 AC.  This leads to another problem, where the numbers escalate to the point where the randomizer is pointless, but that is a separate issue you may never run into.

Getting bonuses is a different monster than inflicting penalties. Bonuses you can slap on yourself then go into battle with them. Even in battle nothing can stop you from buffing yourself (most of the time). However inflicting a penalty is harder to do. Take the penalties you listed:

Flanking = Requires tactical movement by the enemies, not a guarantee, not something you can necessarily set up before battle.

Net = Requires you to catch the PCs inside. In my system they'd get a Dodge [Reflex] attempt to avoid it.

Rough Terrain = Can be moved out of or avoided all together.
 

QuoteRules can guide the way people play the game.  As much by their disuse as their use.  Many groups don't use spell components, so you can't say the rules are affecting the way they play.  It's a dynamic system.  They players have as much agency to craft the game as the original designers.  Outside of your own group, I will guarantee almost no one will use the rules you present in toto.  The rules don't always shape they way people play, because most of the time, there is a certain volume of rules that simply won't be used.

Indeed there are times that players won't like the rules and they will skip them. I ignore spell components because they are too tedious to have to monitor. However, I do the same with ammo as its too minute to have to worry about. This doesn't mean people don't want rules for buying heaps of arrows, just that to remember all of it is tedious. I'm sure that no matter what the ruleset people will change rules for their table. I'm not going to worry about that though. I am only going to concentrate on making rules that, if used as a whole, work. If people want to cherry pick from there, well that's their choice. Its neither unexpected nor unwarranted.

QuoteThis is designing the game to be played the 'right' way:

If that is what you are worried about, you should take a step back before writing a game for public consumption.  These are absolutely not thigns you should be trying to code into the rules, because it will blow up in your face utterly without fail.  The GM can always pretty much do what they want.  Your rules won't stop them.  And players in general will always find ways to screw with your numbers.  You can't stop that either.  Don't try.  I promise you, it will fail every time.[/quote] There's no reason to not try to keep the numbers under control. Letting them fly all over the place invites problems.

As for the DM thing, yes any DM can do whatever they want at the table. However, this is not an argument for ot making rules and guidelines. If I were to follow this idea to its logical conclusion I might as well not make rules at all since the DM at the end can determine what happens. I can say that I do know that people generally use the CR system as a guideline for what people fight. I'd hope that they'd use my plot device system in much the same manner.

QuoteThese should be tactical choices any player can make, not hardcoded on the character sheet.  If my Cleric jumps between the Fighter and the spear trap (or whatever), the Cleric will take damage for the Fighter.

There are no rules in 2e, 3e, or 4e that cover how you can jump in front of somebody to take damage. That is in or out of a given class. If you want cool, dynamic stuff like being able to jump in front of somebody to take damage that's fine. I could even make something like that for my rules set, but if I do I'd specifically make it so that the Champion could do it at a distance (Call it Dive or something) so that he is still the best at it. Again,taking your argument to its logical conclusion that same cleric should be able to pick up a sword and train with it until he is as good at using it as the fighter. He can't though because swinging a sword the best is hard coded onto the fighter's character sheet.

QuoteThis is why designing for the 'role' instead of the 'archetype' will lead you astray.  You are already pretty deep into assigning abilities and powers that will allow a specific class to fill a specific 'role', essentially blending the two.  You don't need both.  Also, you are on the threshold of re-creating 4e if you continue along that path.  Well, maybe some of the worst excesses of 3.x and Prestige Classes.

QuoteThen why have other players at all?  Niche protection makes sure one class fulfils its 'function', but more importantly, it makes sure no class fulfils every function.  That's the critical part, the 'negative space' that you can't see, but is every bit as important to art or engineering.

You are saying one thing then say the opposite in the very next paragraph. You don't want people to have a "role" that's protected but you want their "niche" protected.

QuoteSure.  For you.  Presumably, you are making this game for people who are not you.  For them, a good choice for the 'theme' of a chivalrous knight and bodyguard is a person who is chivalrous, attains knighthood, and guards people.  They don't necessarily want or need a Champion with hardcoded rules to fit the 'role' of defender.  Again, 4e already did this.
The solid choice is the one the players decide on and pursue, not the one you hardcode into the class abilities.

You're being incoherent again. You acknowledge that people will want the theme of a chivalrous knight and bodyguard but that there shouldn't be a class with features that fit that theme? Why do you like to have fighters around then? Some people want to be awesome swordsmen, why have a fighter class with hard coded rules on being that?

QuoteSo, this brings up the most important question in the thread.  Are you designing this for you and your friends, or the general public?

I'm designing this for me. I'm not getting paid to do this. Its a pet project that I took up. I find the thought exercise and my vision of the final product to be both stimulating and comforting.

Quote from: MGuy;558710I can easily conceive of a guy who's plan is to save other people from getting hurt. When you play a Champion your plan isn't to make sure you break a leg for today. Your plan is to make sure no one on your team breaks any legs.

You specifically give the Champion a power to take other people's damage onto himself. That is NOT the same as preventing other people from taking damage.  In fact almost everything you mentioned about the Champion pretty much involved 'taking damage'. Not preventing it, not avoiding it... taking it.

I got a better name for the class than "Champion"... Masochist.

And not being entirely snarky, the name IS misleading. The average schmuck reading 'Champion' isn't going to picture the dude magically channeling someone elses pain onto himself, he's gonna picture the guy that steps out in front of an army prepared to whup another guy's ass, or some dude standing on an Olympic Pedestal getting a medal for being awesome.

 

QuoteWhy do you think movie depictions of secret service agents have them pile on the POTUS the instant a gunshot is fired or an explosion occurs? I'm actually not sure how you find it hard to believe that there's a person who specifically guards everyone else

when that's the generic assumption when you think of front-line fighters protecting squishy wizards in DnD.[/quote]

Um... because they do that in real life, not just movies?

Also: no one becomes a bodyguard or secret service agent expecting to actually get shot. Thats sort of a worst case, you've already failed at your job, moment in protection duties.

Quotewhen that's the generic assumption when you think of front-line fighters protecting squishy wizards in DnD.

I happen to think that is a bad assumption that formed post facto from the dual facts that fighters get hit less often (due to high AC) and tend to be in melee with bad guys anyway.  The only people that actually think of fighters that way are 'old hands' who have absorbed the D&D culture. New players think of fighters as dudes that kill shit by swording it to the face. Likewise, the game designers (at least prior to 4E) apparently thought the same thing, as evidenced by an utter lack of actual protective abilities as even optional feats.

I'll be honest: I strongly doubt anyone would jump at the chance to play your champion. More likely, extrapolating a popular game with attendant culture, you'd see groups demanding a sacrifice from the weakest players to play a class that they don't actually like 'for the good of the group'... meaning, of course, the players who are actually playing what they like.  And that is toxic, a poison pill.

Sure, its a stretch to suggest your game would ever grow big enough for it to matter, but by that logic you might as well store your drinking water in lead containers.

QuoteAS for bonuses/penalties: 5 bonuses are all you get and at least 2 of the 5 will be on your character sheet before you even "do" anything to find others. Then there are specific weapon/armor bonuses. If you have that it will be on your character sheet as well and be 3 out of 5. Situation bonuses already have you looking for the largest out of them because situation bonuses don't stack. So that leaves players with basically looking for maybe 2 more bonuses.

At worst the penalty stacking could get ridiculous at higher levels. That's a big maybe but still a legitimate danger. If I find penalties to be getting out of hand I'll shackle a limit onto them but, in theory, I don't expect it to be an issue.

I'm too big a fan of the KISS principle.  Your system sounds too complex and fiddly, too prone to 'gaming' the subsystem, rules lawyering essentially, for too little benefit... not to mention that it seems entirely based on metagame assumptions.

I'm pretty sure I've never played any RPG that EXPECTED you to collect and track five bonuses, or rather more than five bonuses (arranging the ones you want into a 'hand' from a 'Deck'????), much less expected you to collect a potentially unlimited number of penalties.

Some of it may be definitional, of course, but that still sounds like way too many modifiers to be practical.

Quote from: MGuy;558733If its negated it no longer exists. That's If you have bless on you, and its dispelled, you no longer benefit from "bless" thus there is no longer a bonus taking up the bonus spot that bless took up because bless is no longer active.

Not dispelled, negated.  The spell does not stop, it simply isn't providing the bonus because of an effect that negates the bonus while in it's field of effect.  A suit of +1 chain-mail negates the bonus from a +1 sword.  That doesn't mean the sword is now non-magical.

QuoteYes, the penalties can outstrip the bonuses. However the penalties they've wracked up are well earned and I wouldn't want combat to go any other way where the PCs are caught in a tight spot. The fact that the goblins have to do all this (catch the PCs in bad terrain, net them, and out number them) just to get a -1 means that I, as the DM can ambush the pcs, put them on horrible footing, and not have the battle be hopeless (just as planned). Now if the goblins have to then spend combat rounds not attacking but improving their advantage somehow then that means that it was worth using deeper tactics to do so (which is also good).

Ok, that is a game preference, and it sounds like it will work out pretty well for your group.

QuoteThere are no rules in 2e, 3e, or 4e that cover how you can jump in front of somebody to take damage. That is in or out of a given class. If you want cool, dynamic stuff like being able to jump in front of somebody to take damage that's fine.

2nd Edition is close enough to 1st that for both it is a simple declaration of an action.  Depending on the DM, it could be a Dexterity check, a Strength check, maybe even a saving throw.  Or, they could just play along and tell the player that their character just got a spear in the chest without rolling anything.  Even in 3.x, you don't really need rules to tell you how to do that, but I guess I can understand why a good portion of the players think you should.

QuoteI could even make something like that for my rules set, but if I do I'd specifically make it so that the Champion could do it at a distance (Call it Dive or something) so that he is still the best at it.

What kind of distance?

QuoteAgain,taking your argument to its logical conclusion that same cleric should be able to pick up a sword and train with it until he is as good at using it as the fighter. He can't though because swinging a sword the best is hard coded onto the fighter's character sheet.

That isn't taking it to its logical conclusion.

QuoteYou are saying one thing then say the opposite in the very next paragraph. You don't want people to have a "role" that's protected but you want their "niche" protected.

A 'niche' is not the same thing as a 'role'.  

 

QuoteYou're being incoherent again. You acknowledge that people will want the theme of a chivalrous knight and bodyguard but that there shouldn't be a class with features that fit that theme?

No, what I am saying is that it doesn't absolutely follow that a chivalrous knight and bodyguard must be a class or have rules to fit that.  A 'theme' is something you do for characterization, outside the rules.  Despite how WotC wants to use it now.

QuoteWhy do you like to have fighters around then? Some people want to be awesome swordsmen, why have a fighter class with hard coded rules on being that?

Because that is an 'archetype'.  Also, some people need to be eased into the game with a easily playable character like the Fighter rather than have 200pgs of spells dropped in front of them.

QuoteI'm designing this for me. I'm not getting paid to do this. Its a pet project that I took up. I find the thought exercise and my vision of the final product to be both stimulating and comforting.

Ah, well, then design it how you want it.  I am not being spiteful, but I have a feeling I have little to add that you would find useful, so I will cease active participation.

Mguy,  what is being said is not criticism it's feedback. First lesson a game designer must learn is have a thick skin.  Between not having that and not caring about the intractsies of the math behind the game makes me a horrible designer.  But I do know what I like and can understand and see good ideas when I see them.  This thread so far is full of them.

Quote from: Marleycat;558754Mguy,  what is being said is not criticism it's feedback. First lesson a game designer must learn is have a thick skin.  Between not having that and not caring about the intractsies of the math behind the game makes me a horrible designer.  But I do know what I like and can understand and see good ideas when I see them.  This thread so far is full of them.

I'm not taking any of this as criticism. Just because I am defending my design decisions doesn't mean that I am taking people questioning them as criticism.

Quote from: Spike;558740You specifically give the Champion a power to take other people's damage onto himself. That is NOT the same as preventing other people from taking damage.  In fact almost everything you mentioned about the Champion pretty much involved 'taking damage'. Not preventing it, not avoiding it... taking it.

If the Champion hops in the way of the bullet aimed for the mage who is taking the damage? Since the bullet was heading for the mage and the Champion forced the Mage out of the way he prevented the mage from taking the damage. Unless you have some weird definition of "prevents damage toward others" that has a specific clause in it that says he can't get damaged instead I think that qualifies as preventing others from taking damage. This is especially true considering he has more defense abilities and can thus mitigate THAT damage.

QuoteAnd not being entirely snarky, the name IS misleading. The average schmuck reading 'Champion' isn't going to picture the dude magically channeling someone elses pain onto himself, he's gonna picture the guy that steps out in front of an army prepared to whup another guy's ass, or some dude standing on an Olympic Pedestal getting a medal for being awesome.

Ignoring the fact that he CAN whup someone's ass on his own, citing the name as misleading is a bit odd. By name I wouldn't be able to tell you the difference between a sorcerer and a wizard. When I first heard monk I thought it was a ball headed priest that spent his time studying, reciting, and copying down scriptures. Nothing about Bard tells me that he's able to hypnotize people. Luckily I can add a little blurb that crystallizes exactly what people can expect a Champion to be able to do.

QuoteUm... because they do that in real life, not just movies?

Also: no one becomes a bodyguard or secret service agent expecting to actually get shot. Thats sort of a worst case, you've already failed at your job, moment in protection duties.

Now you're being incoherent. You're saying that bodyguards and secret service members are depicted as hopping on their VIP or hoping in the way of gunfire because that's what happens in real life but say then that that's not expected? You realize we're talking about a fantasy game where people willfully go into the lair of ancient beasts right? Danger is of course expected (not wanted but expected) and when the mage is about to be lit on fire its better that he hop in the way since he's wearing the damage reducing armor and wielding the damage reducing shield, whilst having damage reducing abilities in order to take the bullet for the mage.

QuoteI happen to think that is a bad assumption that formed post facto from the dual facts that fighters get hit less often (due to high AC) and tend to be in melee with bad guys anyway.  The only people that actually think of fighters that way are 'old hands' who have absorbed the D&D culture. New players think of fighters as dudes that kill shit by swording it to the face. Likewise, the game designers (at least prior to 4E) apparently thought the same thing, as evidenced by an utter lack of actual protective abilities as even optional feats.

So you're going to tell me that the presumption that the fighter being sturdy fights on the frontline so that the squishies in the back don't take damage is something that only "old hands" believe and was invented in retrospect because it just so happened to be that it seemed like that with how fights broke down? How could that presumption have just been retrofitted and old when, not only did it survive through older editions of DnD up to and including low level 3rd edition, but is something built into modern rpgs? You see it far too often in modern times (MMOs especially) for you to be able to think that. You admitted yourself you know people who play tanks in MMOs.

QuoteI'll be honest: I strongly doubt anyone would jump at the chance to play your champion. More likely, extrapolating a popular game with attendant culture, you'd see groups demanding a sacrifice from the weakest players to play a class that they don't actually like 'for the good of the group'... meaning, of course, the players who are actually playing what they like.  And that is toxic, a poison pill.

You have your prediction and I'm not going to argue with it.

QuoteI'm too big a fan of the KISS principle.  Your system sounds too complex and fiddly, too prone to 'gaming' the subsystem, rules lawyering essentially, for too little benefit... not to mention that it seems entirely based on metagame assumptions.

I'm fairly sure I haven't explained enough of what my system even does to make it sound all that complicated. I'd take it you like a Rules-Lite approach based on your statements. Thing is, I don't. If I can make my game about as complicated as core 3rd without going over that would satisfy me.

QuoteI'm pretty sure I've never played any RPG that EXPECTED you to collect and track five bonuses, or rather more than five bonuses (arranging the ones you want into a 'hand' from a 'Deck'????), much less expected you to collect a potentially unlimited number of penalties.

Some of it may be definitional, of course, but that still sounds like way too many modifiers to be practical.

I take it you have never played 3rd edition. You also haven't played 4th either. The Fighter in 3rd edition is suppose to get and track bonuses from, weapon focus, weapon specialization, flanking, power attack, attribute bonus, magic weapon bonus, charging vs not charging and THEN start worrying about if someone buffed him. This is what it looks like at 4th level and doesn't even get started on various debuffs. I've heard that in earlier editions there was a friggin' weapon vs armor chart that you were to reference to figure things out.

S, yes, given DnD's history I'd reasonably expect someone to be able to at least be able to keep track of 5 bonuses (especially since up to three of them are arranged on your character sheet and don't need to be excessively fiddled with). As for penalties, yes they "may" or "may not" get heavy. If I find that they do, and it causes issues, I will slap a limit on them as well. I don't think that they will but I could be wrong and if they do I'd reasonably would expect people to at least be able to keep track of up to 5 penalties.

Quote from: StormBringer;558743Not dispelled, negated.  The spell does not stop, it simply isn't providing the bonus because of an effect that negates the bonus while in it's field of effect.  A suit of +1 chain-mail negates the bonus from a +1 sword.  That doesn't mean the sword is now non-magical.

Once again you've got me scratching my head. You say that the spell "bless" is negated such that it doesn't provide a bonus but the spell is still going on so a bonus exists. I'm telling you it cannot be both. If the bonus isn't being given it does not "count" as a bonus. The system is set up such that you can receive 5 bonuses. If something occurs that takes one of the bonuses away then that opens up the slot that bonus was in. And how the hell does a +1 suit of chainmail which provides an armor bonus to your armor negate the +1 from a sword that gives a bonus to attack/damage?

QuoteWhat kind of distance?

They're move speed. Upon looking at my document I actually already have that as an ability that they get so kudos for me.

QuoteThat isn't taking it to its logical conclusion.

In a game when you have an ability that does something explicit [take damage for someone else] you implicitly suggest other people without that ability can't do it. The champion has an ability where he can force an attacker to target him with an attack instead of someone else as long as that someone else is within his reach. So implicitly no one else can do that, nor should someone else be able to do that. The Champion has an explicit ability that forces attackers to target him at the drop of a hat and it says so on his character sheet and that's important as I'm about to explain.

In your spear trap scenario I'd assume the Cleric was off guard and thus shouldn't be able to react and maneuver fast enough to take the spears for anyone (logically). So the argument could be made by the DM that the cleric can't get a roll. Now you can argue about this or that or complain about the DM's call whatever, fact of the matter is the argument can be made and the decision thus maintained. However, if the cleric instead had an ability on his character sheet that gave him a "supernatural sense for danger" then the DM could not argue that because it says right there on his character sheet that he's not flatfooted when danger is about. That's the difference between having such a rule exist and not.

QuoteA 'niche' is not the same thing as a 'role'.  

Details please.

 

QuoteNo, what I am saying is that it doesn't absolutely follow that a chivalrous knight and bodyguard must be a class or have rules to fit that.  A 'theme' is something you do for characterization, outside the rules.  Despite how WotC wants to use it now.

So... How does the Champion, as I've described it so far, not live up to a theme? They want to be chilvarous and a bodyguard. The class gives you abilities that fit that theme. What about the Champion, as described, is any more limiting than say being a paladin?

QuoteBecause that is an 'archetype'.  Also, some people need to be eased into the game with a easily playable character like the Fighter rather than have 200pgs of spells dropped in front of them.

None of the classes I've listed has "spell list" as a class ability. The one who gets closest is the "mage" class and because of the slow rate of spell acquisition (one spell per feat), simplicity of basic spells, etc that it'll be quite so intimidating. What's more is the Champion isn't a class that encourages spell slinging either.

QuoteAh, well, then design it how you want it.  I am not being spiteful, but I have a feeling I have little to add that you would find useful, so I will cease active participation.

While I'm not sure if you're being spiteful this is almost tautological. I'm the only designer designing my system. I've no choice but to design it how I want. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Quote from: MGuy;558766If the Champion hops in the way of the bullet aimed for the mage who is taking the damage? Since the bullet was heading for the mage and the Champion forced the Mage out of the way he prevented the mage from taking the damage. Unless you have some weird definition of "prevents damage toward others" that has a specific clause in it that says he can't get damaged instead I think that qualifies as preventing others from taking damage. This is especially true considering he has more defense abilities and can thus mitigate THAT damage.

Presuming that if he hopped in front of the bullet for the mage that his AC could bounce the bullet? Yeah, that's fine. Your description, however, was that the mage takes actual damage and the Champion then sees the bloody bullet hole, gets his pain-boner on and steals the injury for himself.  

QuoteIgnoring the fact that he CAN whup someone's ass on his own, citing the name as misleading is a bit odd. By name I wouldn't be able to tell you the difference between a sorcerer and a wizard. When I first heard monk I thought it was a ball headed priest that spent his time studying, reciting, and copying down scriptures. Nothing about Bard tells me that he's able to hypnotize people. Luckily I can add a little blurb that crystallizes exactly what people can expect a Champion to be able to do.

Well, your little blurb in this thread was all about what a great punching bag the Champion is.  By your own measure of 'balance' he has to trade away at least some portion of his ability to 'ass whup' in order to be good at 'taking damage' or you risk him being 'cooler' than the other classes because he's got too many abilities.... or at least that is the assumption I make based on your general posting about balance and spotlight time and so forth.

QuoteNow you're being incoherent. You're saying that bodyguards and secret service members are depicted as hopping on their VIP or hoping in the way of gunfire because that's what happens in real life but say then that that's not expected?

Do you WANT me to mock your reading comprehension? I commented specifically on your charactization of this as a cinematic convention, then pointed out the difference between 'risking' being shot and actually pulling the trigger on yourself, though admittedly less succinctly than I just did.  

Your description of the Champion that started all of this back and forth was of a guy that literally takes actual injuries onto himself in mid-fight. he doesn't 'risk' them, he doesn't defend, he actively choses to carve holes in his flesh so someone else can magically heal.

Not that there isn't a precedent for such an ability, but this is the first I'm aware of it in a front line combatant type, and with no mention of (that I recall off hand) increased self-healing that normally accompanies 'wound swapping'.

QuoteYou realize we're talking about a fantasy game where people willfully go into the lair of ancient beasts right? Danger is of course expected (not wanted but expected) and when the mage is about to be lit on fire its better that he hop in the way since he's wearing the damage reducing armor and wielding the damage reducing shield, whilst having damage reducing abilities in order to take the bullet for the mage.

Getting in a knife fight (exploring dungeons, since you seem to have trouble with reading comp) is dangerous. Stabbing yourself (Taking a hit retroactively from another character) is masochism.

I notice however that you keep adding details on the class without actually detailing how they work in game.  I'll happily concede that your knowledge of your own system is obviously greater than mine. I can only point out how silly the class sounds from a limited blurb, as I've got no grasp of how you intend for these various mechanics to interact.  

Let me see: The Mage (AC 14) gets hit by a goblin for 13 points of damage (Hits an AC 15).  The Champion (AC 22) sees this and activates his super-awesome power of 'taking the hit'.  Presumably as a standard action (negating his ability to whup ass for this round).  Is the entire hit now negated because his AC is higher than the goblin's hit roll?  That seems... a bit over the top and demanding certain types of abuse (or, potentially its meant that way... meaning the Champion tends to only steal hits that won't affect him anyways... whatever).  But lets say it doesn't work that way, and the hit is a hit, so the Champion takes 13 points of damage that, had it been targetted to him would have been ignored? If he has DR 2 does that mean he takes 11 points? What if hte DR is from his Adamantium Chainmail?

Now, you may already have answered all this to your own satisfaction, and if so bully for you.  If not, then the class is already flawed by too many interacting subsystems and can/should be able to do the same sort of thing, only simpler and easier to understand.

QuoteSo you're going to tell me that the presumption that the fighter being sturdy fights on the frontline so that the squishies in the back don't take damage is something that only "old hands" believe and was invented in retrospect because it just so happened to be that it seemed like that with how fights broke down? How could that presumption have just been retrofitted and old when, not only did it survive through older editions of DnD up to and including low level 3rd edition, but is something built into modern rpgs? You see it far too often in modern times (MMOs especially) for you to be able to think that. You admitted yourself you know people who play tanks in MMOs.

I'm telling you that fighters were designed to kill shit and stand on the front line.

It follows from that that softer, rear ranks characters tended to use the fighters as a tactical defense, by actively avoiding melee combat (innate) and eventually convincing fighters to position themselves to keep enemy melee from reaching them.

This, however, was not reflected in any edition of D&D at the design phase until 4E at all, and is not mechanically reflected prior to that edition in the design of the fighter beyond its role as 'melee guy'.  

The rise of MMOs, with limited computer AIs to control monsters, and the MMO similar 3E Rogue as theoretically superior melee 'DPS' lead to fighters 'role' shifting to 'tank' which is pretty much unsupportable outside of video games, and even Table Top games without extremely meta-game mechanics to pull it off.

I'm sorry you can't grasp this simple idea, that 'tanking warriors' is a relatively recent, and silly, idea and has very little, if any, value to a table-top RPG.

I'm REALLY sorry I have to break it down into easily digestible chunks for you, since you appear unable to grasp it in any other way (and I doubt your ability to grasp it this way).


 

QuoteYou have your prediction and I'm not going to argue with it.

That is a very passive agressive way of saying you disagree.  

Out of curiosity:  Do you disagree because you think I am actually wrong about people gaming the system?

Do you disagree that it is a poison pill?

Do you agree that people will game the system, that it is toxic, but disagree that it is in anyway a problem?

I may be a bit slow today, but I don't really see any other grounds for disagreement, and I don't see your statement as being read any other way. There is just too much subtext in the phrasing.

QuoteI'm fairly sure I haven't explained enough of what my system even does to make it sound all that complicated. I'd take it you like a Rules-Lite approach based on your statements. Thing is, I don't. If I can make my game about as complicated as core 3rd without going over that would satisfy me.

I'm fine with more complex rules systems.  What I dislike is vast bodies of metagame rules, odd exceptionalism and so on.  When I play D&D, I want to be Spike the Fighter whacking a dude with his sword, not Spike the Accountant checking his bonus columns for the best advantage, and measuring mathematical probilities against a risk-assesment matrix devised entirely by the rule-set and not at all by... and I hate to invoke this word for the shitstorm that inevitably follows... immersion.  

The fact that I can almost predict your response to this word for word makes me weep for the educational system in general and you in specific.

QuoteI take it you have never played 3rd edition. You also haven't played 4th either. The Fighter in 3rd edition is suppose to get and track bonuses from, weapon focus, weapon specialization, flanking, power attack, attribute bonus, magic weapon bonus, charging vs not charging and THEN start worrying about if someone buffed him. This is what it looks like at 4th level and doesn't even get started on various debuffs. I've heard that in earlier editions there was a friggin' weapon vs armor chart that you were to reference to figure things out.

I have played 3E, I've GM'd 3E. That doesn't mean I think porting over the bonus system and making it worse (or more whatever you think it needs to be) is a good idea. Its actually bad, and leads to shit like Pun-Pun.

You would have to pay me (a lot) to play 4e. Taking the WORST parts of video games and trying to recreate those on a tabletop, and turning it into a shitty version of the wargames it supposedly evolved from? No thank you.  

As far as your cute aside about looking up a reference chart: Based on what I can tell, you'd like to improve chart references by imposing a limit on how many charts you can look up a day, possibly by a random die roll compared to yet another chart, which will give you an appendix broken down by class and level, with a sub-chart for race.

Which would not measurably improve game play but would assuredly slow down game play when it wasn't out right ignored or abused.

Quote from: Spike;558777Presuming that if he hopped in front of the bullet for the mage that his AC could bounce the bullet? Yeah, that's fine. Your description, however, was that the mage takes actual damage and the Champion then sees the bloody bullet hole, gets his pain-boner on and steals the injury for himself.  

I'm not sure how you read it that way.

QuoteWell, your little blurb in this thread was all about what a great punching bag the Champion is.  By your own measure of 'balance' he has to trade away at least some portion of his ability to 'ass whup' in order to be good at 'taking damage' or you risk him being 'cooler' than the other classes because he's got too many abilities.... or at least that is the assumption I make based on your general posting about balance and spotlight time and so forth.

My little blurb gave a short description of highlights from various classes. You got stuck on his ability to take damage for other people and seemed to miss the portion where I said he can up his defenses. As for you making assumptions based on my posting I can't even begin to fathom how exactly you see my ideas so I can't make any comments on that front. I believe I've been pretty clear when I've said that all classes participate in combat to some degree. As long as everybody is engaged "Mission Accomplished".
 

QuoteDo you WANT me to mock your reading comprehension? I commented specifically on your charactization of this as a cinematic convention, then pointed out the difference between 'risking' being shot and actually pulling the trigger on yourself, though admittedly less succinctly than I just did.  Your description of the Champion that started all of this back and forth was of a guy that literally takes actual injuries onto himself in mid-fight. he doesn't 'risk' them, he doesn't defend, he actively choses to carve holes in his flesh so someone else can magically heal.

Not that there isn't a precedent for such an ability, but this is the first I'm aware of it in a front line combatant type, and with no mention of (that I recall off hand) increased self-healing that normally accompanies 'wound swapping'.

You can mock me for reading what you said and stating how it was confusing though I don't see why you would since all I did was lay out how you made it sound. Again I don't know how you read the Champion's ability to take damage for other people as him not preventing that damage from occurring, I also don't know why you're holding me to that convention even when I have laid out that that isn't the case. Also, yes there is an ability like that, a spell at least called "Shield Other". Lastly, even if that "was" the case characters do not suffer critical existence failure until they reach 0 HP. So if the Champion knows this (and he would) then it isn't surprising, crazy, or masochistic that he would do such a thing considering he has more HPs and can mitigate the damage with his own abilities.

QuoteGetting in a knife fight (exploring dungeons, since you seem to have trouble with reading comp) is dangerous. Stabbing yourself (Taking a hit retroactively from another character) is masochism.

Again, he has more hp and damage mitigating abilities. Its not nearly as dangerous for him as you make it out to be. Your argument on this "stab yourself" point would make more sense if it weren't being made in a conversation about a game that is going to be imitating DnD where HP is a thing.

QuoteI notice however that you keep adding details on the class without actually detailing how they work in game.  I'll happily concede that your knowledge of your own system is obviously greater than mine. I can only point out how silly the class sounds from a limited blurb, as I've got no grasp of how you intend for these various mechanics to interact.  

Then perhaps you should ask how it works instead of making assumptions based on an odd reading/utter distaste for the concepts I've laid out then arguing with those assumptions in mind in rather odd and incoherent ways.

QuoteLet me see: The Mage (AC 14) gets hit by a goblin for 13 points of damage (Hits an AC 15).  The Champion (AC 22) sees this and activates his super-awesome power of 'taking the hit'.  Presumably as a standard action (negating his ability to whup ass for this round).  Is the entire hit now negated because his AC is higher than the goblin's hit roll?  That seems... a bit over the top and demanding certain types of abuse (or, potentially its meant that way... meaning the Champion tends to only steal hits that won't affect him anyways... whatever).  But lets say it doesn't work that way, and the hit is a hit, so the Champion takes 13 points of damage that, had it been targetted to him would have been ignored? If he has DR 2 does that mean he takes 11 points? What if hte DR is from his Adamantium Chainmail?

Now, you may already have answered all this to your own satisfaction, and if so bully for you.  If not, then the class is already flawed by too many interacting subsystems and can/should be able to do the same sort of thing, only simpler and easier to understand.

I'll just have to take this as you actually asking "What happens when a goblin is about to hit a mage and a Champion activates his ability?" Well I can answer that.

In this situation goblin announces attack vs Mage. This provokes the Champion who can use his Attack of Opportunity to then redirect the attack at himself (moving to and taking the place of the Mage to do so). The goblin then makes his attack. Since the Champions dodge is actually only lower than the wizard's* he takes the hit. The goblin rolls 13 so the total is 14 (his size, being small, is the only bonus he gets on this attack) vs the Champion's Dodge of 6 (10 + 2 Dodge - 6 Armor Penalty) so goblin gets + 4 precision damage on the damage roll. The goblin is small so he only does 1d3 (dagger but smaller) damage + -1 strength (also from small size) + 4 precision damage. So he deals about 5.5 damage on average. We'll round up to 6. Champion takes it. He has a slightly higher "Con" score at 12 so he has +1 DR to start off and he's wearing heavy armor which, despite bringing his dodge bonus down to the dismal level its at he gets +3 DR putting his DR at 4. So he takes about 2 damage (maybe 1 more or one less). No big deal. He has about 12 HP at first level. He's down about 2 HP but the mage is now out of melee range the Champion is in melee range, and  the mage can freely cast his spells (No default 5ft step in my game) on his next turn or move to flank. This would be 4 damage if the goblin charged but that's not in this scenario.

Had the mage taken it he would've had a dodge of 10 (10 no dodge bonus no armor). So the goblin would still hit on a 14 with his 1d3 damage. dealing about 3.5 damage to the mage. We're going to round that up to 4. He has no "con" bonus and no armor so he doesn't get any DR. So he takes 4 damage out of his probably 10 hp and now he's in melee. He would do 6 damage had he charged but that is not this scenario.

 *Armor provides DR in my game. Shields still increase dodge but only when he makes an active defense  which he can't do since he used his attack of opportunity to do this in the first place.

QuoteI'm telling you that fighters were designed to kill shit and stand on the front line.

It follows from that that softer, rear ranks characters tended to use the fighters as a tactical defense, by actively avoiding melee combat (innate) and eventually convincing fighters to position themselves to keep enemy melee from reaching them.

This, however, was not reflected in any edition of D&D at the design phase until 4E at all, and is not mechanically reflected prior to that edition in the design of the fighter beyond its role as 'melee guy'.  

The rise of MMOs, with limited computer AIs to control monsters, and the MMO similar 3E Rogue as theoretically superior melee 'DPS' lead to fighters 'role' shifting to 'tank' which is pretty much unsupportable outside of video games, and even Table Top games without extremely meta-game mechanics to pull it off.

I'm sorry you can't grasp this simple idea, that 'tanking warriors' is a relatively recent, and silly, idea and has very little, if any, value to a table-top RPG.

You're the one who said "old hands" were the ones who held on to the belief that the fighters tank. And they did. Squishies inherently sat back and let the melee dude take the damage. And it WORKED OUT. Not too many people lost their shit about this set up. Why are you arguing the role as if it were a bad thing? Is pointing out their actual use somehow causing you distress? The Champion doesn't "have" to sit back and hold hands with the mage. If he rushes into melee he'll be taking damage ANYWAY so he can actually do his melee fighting thing that way. I gave him abilities that allow him to alternatively help others. God forbid someone actually want to tank.

QuoteI'm REALLY sorry I have to break it down into easily digestible chunks for you, since you appear unable to grasp it in any other way (and I doubt your ability to grasp it this way).

I'm really sorry that you think dumbing your already dumb points down makes them any less inane. I mean half of your argument is based off of you misunderstanding what the class did even after I already responded to your punching bad accusation prior to this post. What's more is that even WITH your misunderstanding there is nothing wrong with a class that can suck up other people's damage. The fact that its not an idea YOU like isn't something that you can build an argument for. I acknowledge that YOU don't like tanking that YOU cannot be fucked with actually spending combat time reducing incoming hit point damage but that is in no way going to effect my decision to put the option into my game.

QuoteThat is a very passive agressive way of saying you disagree.  

Out of curiosity:  Do you disagree because you think I am actually wrong about people gaming the system?

Do you disagree that it is a poison pill?

Do you agree that people will game the system, that it is toxic, but disagree that it is in anyway a problem?
I may be a bit slow today, but I don't really see any other grounds for disagreement, and I don't see your statement as being read any other way. There is just too much subtext in the phrasing.

You predict that it will be poison to the game because people will use the rules to try and make things they want to happen happen. I don't disagree with the fact that people will try to use the rules to their advantage. However, I not only fully expect this to be the case but I frankly don't give a rat's ass as long as none of the rules I make promote game disruption. People will ALWAYS try to game the system no matter how many rules it has/doesn't have. The BEST I can do is make it so that the damage is minimal. What's more is whatever people need to do to have their "fun" with my system or any other is none of my concern. If there are groups out there who want to use my rules but use them in the most disruptive ways they can I do not care. Monty Haul games aren't something I'm particularly against.If If a major loophole/exploit is pointed out to me and it bothers me at all I'll work to close it. Otherwise people are free to have their make believe in anyway they see fit.

QuoteI'm fine with more complex rules systems.  What I dislike is vast bodies of metagame rules, odd exceptionalism and so on.  When I play D&D, I want to be Spike the Fighter whacking a dude with his sword, not Spike the Accountant checking his bonus columns for the best advantage, and measuring mathematical probabilities against a risk-assesment matrix devised entirely by the rule-set and not at all by... and I hate to invoke this word for the shitstorm that inevitably follows... immersion.  

The fact that I can almost predict your response to this word for word makes me weep for the educational system in general and you in specific.

Again that's a personal issue. If you don't want to assess risks don't. No one is forcing you to do math. I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself by having to add4 or 5 numbers together.

QuoteI have played 3E, I've GM'd 3E. That doesn't mean I think porting over the bonus system and making it worse (or more whatever you think it needs to be) is a good idea. Its actually bad, and leads to shit like Pun-Pun.

You would have to pay me (a lot) to play 4e. Taking the WORST parts of video games and trying to recreate those on a tabletop, and turning it into a shitty version of the wargames it supposedly evolved from? No thank you.  

As far as your cute aside about looking up a reference chart: Based on what I can tell, you'd like to improve chart references by imposing a limit on how many charts you can look up a day, possibly by a random die roll compared to yet another chart, which will give you an appendix broken down by class and level, with a sub-chart for race.

Which would not measurably improve game play but would assuredly slow down game play when it wasn't out right ignored or abused.

This is all just gibberish so I'm going to explicitly discard it.

Quote from: MGuy;558772Once again you've got me scratching my head. You say that the spell "bless" is negated such that it doesn't provide a bonus but the spell is still going on so a bonus exists. I'm telling you it cannot be both.

It's really not that difficult.  Turn a flashlight on.  Drop it in a box and close the lid.  Does the flashlight go off?

QuoteIf the bonus isn't being given it does not "count" as a bonus. The system is set up such that you can receive 5 bonuses. If something occurs that takes one of the bonuses away then that opens up the slot that bonus was in.

Unless the bonus is only temporarily negated but not 'shut off'.

QuoteAnd how the hell does a +1 suit of chainmail which provides an armor bonus to your armor negate the +1 from a sword that gives a bonus to attack/damage?

And this is what makes me think you don't have nearly the experience with game theory, other RPGs or basic math you pretend you do.

 In a game when you have an ability that does something explicit [take damage for someone else] you implicitly suggest other people without that ability can't do it.

[/quote]In your spear trap scenario I'd assume the Cleric was off guard and thus shouldn't be able to react and maneuver fast enough to take the spears for anyone (logically).[/quote]
So, the Champion would also be off guard?  In other words, his abilities would or would not be useful out of combat?

 

QuoteDetails please.

This is some pretty basic stuff.  Going with later edition terminology, a 'role' is what a character does in combat.  A 'niche' is the character's general profession and the attendant abilities that go with that; the archetype.

 

QuoteSo... How does the Champion, as I've described it so far, not live up to a theme? They want to be chilvarous and a bodyguard. The class gives you abilities that fit that theme. What about the Champion, as described, is any more limiting than say being a paladin?

Because the Paladin can do what the Champion does or they can protect the Magic-User while performing auxiliary healing duties or they can stride out in the front of the party to smite the enemies of Good and Law or they can preach about the horrors of war and the need for peace, only raising a weapon in self defence or any one of a million other things that don't depend on narrow skills that rigidly define their 'role' and don't permit any other interpretation.

QuoteWhile I'm not sure if you're being spiteful this is almost tautological. I'm the only designer designing my system. I've no choice but to design it how I want. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Then why are you here?  I understand your original post mentioned the request by Marleycat, but you could have PMd her the rules.  If you don't want public discussion of your rules, don't display them publicly.  This is absolutely not the place for warm fuzzies and unconditional encouragement.

Quote from: MGuy;558932People will ALWAYS try to game the system no matter how many rules it has/doesn't have. The BEST I can do is make it so that the damage is minimal.

You really can't even do that.  It is a false design goal that will always make your game worse; viz anything from the Forge, or 4e.  Some would say I repeat myself.

Quote from: StormBringer;559026You really can't even do that.  It is a false design goal that will always make your game worse; viz anything from the Forge, or 4e.  Some would say I repeat myself.

You do repeat yourself, but you also happen to be right.

Quote from: Benoist;559027You do repeat yourself, but you also happen to be right.

:hatsoff:

MGuy,

Leaving aside the fact that the existence of the Champion class was problematic on an entirely personal level (something I am SURE I mentioned in my initial comment), based entirely on the fact that I hate being told that fighters and soldier and warriors ever went into combat being told 'Okay Bob, when we get in there you take that orcs ax to the face as long as you can. We'll try to kill it before your face gives out.', and think its fail on almost every level...

... and, trying to further justify its existance by using bodyguards... seriously: Do you think Bodyguards actually like getting shot at? Have you ever worked personal security? If you're client gets anywhere NEAR a known fight situation you fail at life.

At least mechanically we've moved away from Schrodinger Damage, which is a good thing.

Your initial explanation was that the Champion Takes Damage from another Character (I could quote you, but why?).

Damage is a fairly specific "Game Term". It has meaning, and D&D that meaning is 'HP'.

Your more detailed explanation directly contradicts that... what you MEAN is 'The Champion takes the ATTACK* for another character', which makes him less of a masochist and more 'just a moron', which is an improvement.

But who knows: The WoW set will probably love it.

And, of course, if you don't think your bonus scheme is too fiddly, well, its your game. At least you've moved to armor as DR, though it does sound like guys who take axes to the face (Professionally) are crappier dodgers than people who don't, which seems... backwards... but in a minor way.






* This is not merely semantics.  The order of operations in combat, especially D&D combat is relatively well set and the use of terminology implies when, in that order of operations your action kicks in.

1- critter declares it is attacking
1a- possible interrupt based on champion's schtick (and actual based on explanation).
2- monster rolls attack and hits.
2a- possible interrupt (Schrodinger's damage, worst possible champion ability)
3-monster rolls damage
3a- possible 'interrupt' as the Champion takes the rolled damage on himself (What you actually described in your blurb).

1a and 3a are both mechanically workable without too much difficulty/confusion. 1a is potentially slower and more fiddly, but I think in a trivial fashion if explained clearly. 3a is fast and easy but immersion breakingly stupid for all the reasons I mocked you for earlier. 2a is mechanically possible but the most fiddly and prone to breakage, along with just god damn hard to imagine.  Also: I mocked the mere possibility of this one, and will remember to call any other such mechanics that anyone describes Schrodinger's Damage for as long as I can remember it. So... until lunch probably.

Quote from: MGuy;558684I know that bonus accruing can get a little hectic which is why I limited them but it has been my experience that not many groups seek a lot of ways to slam penalties on someone. Most people go bonus hunting or go directly for damaging or combatant removal abilities. Even if they do (go penalty hunting), it'll eat of actions to do so without making things hopeless. If that's the case then I'm not losing anything in round length or strategic depth of the game.

Whether people go penalty-hunting is more a matter of the available penalties and the procedures for applying them. My game puts conditions on wounds, so people can hurt each other short-term without losing the opportunity to damage foes.

Like I say, it's those details that end up mattering.

What do you think of just reducing the number of bonus types though? It would accomplish more or less the same thing without introducing a second rule.

Quote from: beejazz;559040Whether people go penalty-hunting is more a matter of the available penalties and the procedures for applying them. My game puts conditions on wounds, so people can hurt each other short-term without losing the opportunity to damage foes.

Like I say, it's those details that end up mattering.

What do you think of just reducing the number of bonus types though? It would accomplish more or less the same thing without introducing a second rule.

I intend to do just that. As I mentioned before situation specific bonuses (like flanking and having higher ground) are all the same type of bonus so you only use the highest one of those and add that in. There'll be a morale bonus, a magic bonus (from magic), and a mundane (from mundane things like having superior equipment) bonus. I can't really think of any other bonus types that I've made outside those four that aren't the generic Attribute, Skill, and Equipment. I make the rule that there can only be 5 that apply just in case, as I develop the game, I end up deciding that there are more.

Ok I'm not going to even respond to you any more if you can't stop making mistakes like this. Responses like these:

Quote from: StormBringer;559025It's really not that difficult.  Turn a flashlight on.  Drop it in a box and close the lid.  Does the flashlight go off?

QuoteUnless the bonus is only temporarily negated but not 'shut off'.

Make me think that you are being stupid on purpose.

The first one introduces a situation that does not match up with the one I'm talking about. The situation would actually be "You get a certain number of light sources to use. You have a flashlight. That flash light is then taken from you and put into a box. How many light sources are you using?" And before you get the answer wrong the answer is NONE because your light source is in a fucking box and you're no longer benefiting/using it.

Second, even if you were dense enough to not get it the first time I explicitly said:

QuoteIf the bonus isn't being given it does not "count" as a bonus. The system is set up such that you can receive 5 bonuses. If something occurs that takes one of the bonuses away then that opens up the slot that bonus was in.

So if it is "temporarily negated" it isn't being given even if its only being taken away temporarily. So of course the slot is then "temporarily" open.

Third, No one said anything about you being forced to use one bonus or another. Not once have I described a "locking in" mechanism.

Quote from: StormBringer;559026You really can't even do that.  It is a false design goal that will always make your game worse; viz anything from the Forge, or 4e.  Some would say I repeat myself.

Holy shit! Are you suggesting that controlling bonuses such that things don't fly wildly off the RNG is a false design goal? Ok, now I know you're trolling me. I had hoped that away from the banter in the other thread you'd at least try to take this seriously.

Quote from: MGuy;559460Second, even if you were dense enough to not get it the first time I explicitly said:  So if it is "temporarily negated" it isn't being given even if its only being taken away temporarily. So of course the slot is then "temporarily" open.

The creature with the 'unholy aura' is killed while bless is still in effect, and now the character has six bonuses.

You can't possibly be that bad at math and still be functional on a daily basis.

Quote from: MGuy;559461Holy shit! Are you suggesting that controlling bonuses such that things don't fly wildly off the RNG is a false design goal?

Yes, and if you had the merest inkling of game design, this wouldn't even be a question.

Also, using 'RNG' means you automatically fail.

Quote from: Spike;559030Leaving aside the fact that the existence of the Champion class was problematic on an entirely personal level (something I am SURE I mentioned in my initial comment), based entirely on the fact that I hate being told that fighters and soldier and warriors ever went into combat being told 'Okay Bob, when we get in there you take that orcs ax to the face as long as you can. We'll try to kill it before your face gives out.', and think its fail on almost every level...

Let's leave that aside even though that's what happens even if people don't say it out loud.

Quote... and, trying to further justify its existance by using bodyguards... seriously: Do you think Bodyguards actually like getting shot at? Have you ever worked personal security? If you're client gets anywhere NEAR a known fight situation you fail at life.

Don't remember anything about me saying that the Champion "likes" anything.

QuoteAt least mechanically we've moved away from Schrodinger Damage, which is a good thing.

I'm happy to get away from the thing you made up.

QuoteYour initial explanation was that the Champion Takes Damage from another Character (I could quote you, but why?).

I could also quote myself on a few things on this very point but whatever, moving on.

QuoteDamage is a fairly specific "Game Term". It has meaning, and D&D that meaning is 'HP'.

I'm assuming you're trying to say that the characters don't know about HP but I would disagree. They may not call it
HP and may have a less accurate fashion in which they guess how much hp they have left (I only hurt a bit, I can take plenty more!) but I'm pretty sure they have some reckoning about how much "damage" they can take before hitting critical existence failure.

QuoteYour more detailed explanation directly contradicts that... what you MEAN is 'The Champion takes the ATTACK* for another character', which makes him less of a masochist and more 'just a moron', which is an improvement.

I wonder how long you're going to spend telling me that you didn't know what you were talking about and actually get to something that involves giving advice.

QuoteAnd, of course, if you don't think your bonus scheme is too fiddly, well, its your game. At least you've moved to armor as DR, though it does sound like guys who take axes to the face (Professionally) are crappier dodgers than people who don't, which seems... backwards... but in a minor way.

Actually if you look over the numbers, the Champion's Dodge bonus is higher than the mage's. And yes, wearing heavier armor makes it harder to actually make an attack completely miss.

So. You spent most of that post telling me you didn't know what the fuck you were talking about and that limiting bonuses makes them more fiddly. Fantastic.

Quote from: StormBringer;559462The creature with the 'unholy aura' is killed while bless is still in effect, and now the character has six bonuses.

You can't possibly be that bad at math and still be functional on a daily basis.

No... The bonus doesn't "pop" back into place. The player must now choose, between the five bonuses they have available, which one they are going to benefit from. Logic dictates they are going to go for the biggest ones. I mean if you were thinking about this logically then you would've realized that.

Quote from: StormBringer;559463Yes, and if you had the merest inkling of game design, this wouldn't even be a question.

Also, using 'RNG' means you automatically fail.

So yes, you ARE trolling me. Great, I'll go back to not reading your posts.

Quote from: MGuy;559470No... The bonus doesn't "pop" back into place. The player must now choose, between the five bonuses they have available, which one they are going to benefit from. Logic dictates they are going to go for the biggest ones. I mean if you were thinking about this logically then you would've realized that.

Oh, now I get it.  You are actually creating a board game.

Quote from: MGuy;559471So yes, you ARE trolling me. Great, I'll go back to not reading your posts.

You weren't reading them to begin with.

Quote from: MGuy;559467I'm assuming you're trying to say that the characters don't know about HP but I would disagree. They may not call it
HP and may have a less accurate fashion in which they guess how much hp they have left (I only hurt a bit, I can take plenty more!) but I'm pretty sure they have some reckoning about how much "damage" they can take before hitting critical existence failure.

Reading comprehension fail.  Attack, hit, and damage are all game terms, well understood by Players.

If you tell a player that his character can take "damage" for another PC it means something very specific, and very different from taking an "Attack".

That you can't grasp this is very sad.  I'm not telling you how to make the Champion work, because I don't actually care for the class at all. I AM telling you that you need to describe it accurately so people actually understand how the class works.

Easy analogy that you'll misunderstand: Does a fireball do 5d6 attack?  No, and if you tell people it does they're gonna be confused.

 

QuoteI wonder how long you're going to spend telling me that you didn't know what you were talking about and actually get to something that involves giving advice.

Actually, Jackass, I was trying to explain a: How you failed to properly describe the class in teh first place and b: what the potential ramifications of your design options are based on the mutually incompatable descriptions you provided.  For a bonus I went ahead and covered the third possibility as well.

In short, I was explaining a design problem to you.  You know, sort of like you asked for by making this thread?

QuoteActually if you look over the numbers, the Champion's Dodge bonus is higher than the mage's. And yes, wearing heavier armor makes it harder to actually make an attack completely miss.

Since you haven't posted the Champion's write up, or your wizard write up, I can't look over the numbers. In your example the wizard's dodge is better.

QuoteSo. You spent most of that post telling me you didn't know what the fuck you were talking about and that limiting bonuses makes them more fiddly. Fantastic.

An artificial cap on the number of different sources of bonuses... greater than the number of potential bonus sources IS fiddly. You have added a mechanism on top of the existing bonus/penalty mechanism, which catagorically and objectively makes the system more complex.

I'm still not 100% clear on how the spell system is supposed to work.  How many spells do you expect a typical wizard to have? Will there be other types of magic or practicioners? Are the spells especially strong like actual Vancian with other acquisition avenues therein because of the extreme limits?  If so, are wizards far more well rounded because of this?

Quote from: Spike;559530Reading comprehension fail.

Indeed. I'm glad you warned me you were about to practice that otherwise I'd've taken what you said right after this  too seriously.

QuoteIf you tell a player that his character can take "damage" for another PC it means something very specific, and very different from taking an "Attack".

If I tell someone who doesn't know shit about the fine difference between targeting, attacking, and damage, the order they should occur in, and why it would matter they will stare at me funny. Imagine for a second that I've described this system to people before. Imagine that thus far you are the only one who took it that way without first asking for clarification. What you don't have to imagine, if you were to go back, is the place where I corrected you on your presumption. The fact that you have since then used half of your posts up telling me that yes, you indeed got it wrong and how if it worked the way you thought it would, it would be bad, is beneath my concern because you indeed got it wrong.

QuoteThat you can't grasp this is very sad.  I'm not telling you how to make the Champion work, because I don't actually care for the class at all. I AM telling you that you need to describe it accurately so people actually understand how the class works.

Easy analogy that you'll misunderstand: Does a fireball do 5d6 attack?  No, and if you tell people it does they're gonna be confused.

I understand you got it wrong. I understand that you got confuzzled and didn't know how to ask for clarification. I have taught you how to ask questions. Don't waste this gift.

 

QuoteIn short, I was explaining a design problem to you.  You know, sort of like you asked for by making this thread?

I wouldn't dare ask a design question on this board after the Fighter v Wizards thread. I sure as hell wouldn't come to you specifically for advice because you seem to like to throw around your own personal tastes into the conversation AND waste my time on a point that I already told you you got wrong. You have, since first posting in this thread told me you don't like the idea of tanking, misinterpreted what I wrote and spent paragraphs reaffirming the fact that you misunderstood it then you go on and tell me how your misinterpretation wouldn't work. You haven't given any "design" advice at all other than telling me you, as a player, hate doing math.

QuoteSince you haven't posted the Champion's write up, or your wizard write up, I can't look over the numbers. In your example the wizard's dodge is better.

Because I haven't gone into the specifics for the game. I'm still writing it up and it isn't even ready for ALPHA testing. It takes time and energy to design a game, I'm not getting paid to do it, and its not a priority task. What I wrote up are outlines of my design process. And in the sample I wrote up the Mage's dodge "total" is higher than the Champions but his dodge bonus is not. If the Champion weren't being weighed down by his armor he would have the higher dodge total. Its lower because heavy armor slows you down.

QuoteAn artificial cap on the number of different sources of bonuses... greater than the number of potential bonus sources IS fiddly. You have added a mechanism on top of the existing bonus/penalty mechanism, which catagorically and objectively makes the system more complex.

The bonus cap is lower than the total number of potential bonuses. I've named at LEAST 6 (attribute + Skill + equipment + situation + Magic + mundane). I have added a mechanism TO the game but I took a lot of the bonus types OUT of the game. Morale, enhancement, armor, natural armor, untyped, inherent, circumstance, competence, alchemical, deflection, dodge, luck, profane, racial, aren't even all of them. So I reduced all of that to so far 6, and yet my system is MORE fiddly than that?

Quote from: MGuy;559457I intend to do just that. As I mentioned before situation specific bonuses (like flanking and having higher ground) are all the same type of bonus so you only use the highest one of those and add that in. There'll be a morale bonus, a magic bonus (from magic), and a mundane (from mundane things like having superior equipment) bonus. I can't really think of any other bonus types that I've made outside those four that aren't the generic Attribute, Skill, and Equipment. I make the rule that there can only be 5 that apply just in case, as I develop the game, I end up deciding that there are more.

Magic bonuses I can sort of see, but mundane is a bit weird. Where would that apply when equipment, situation, etc. do not? If it's just nonmagic class abilities, it might be better to call it a competence bonus or something more specific.

How prominent are morale bonuses going to be? Is there going to be an NPC morale system, or is it just going to be a specific bonus type?

Quote from: Marleycat;559596I'm still not 100% clear on how the spell system is supposed to work.  How many spells do you expect a typical wizard to have? Will there be other types of magic or practicioners? Are the spells especially strong like actual Vancian with other acquisition avenues therein because of the extreme limits?  If so, are wizards far more well rounded because of this?

Depends on what level of Mage he is.

Everyone can practice "magic". There is no "magic" specific class. The mage would be the closest to that since all of his actual class abilities either allow him to get spells, metamagic feats, or allow him to use spells in a manner no other class covers.

Spells are kept under a tight reign. As mentioned before spells that everyone needs (like teleport, raise dead, plane shifting) are thematic and necessary for the game so they are rituals instead. Spells otherwise don't make you any more combatively powerful then any other class. Spells merely allow you to do very specific things with reality. They are more versatile than most of the more martial abilities (something that's seemingly impossible to avoid) but they don't do anything that would allow someone who concentrates on them to out do someone who chooses not to.

I still haven't started testing as of yet. The outlook I had on changing the spells was to keep the thematic ones, reduce overlap as much as feasibly possible, make it so that no one spell completely obviates the need for skills. What's more is acquisition of them is slower by virtue of having to rely on feats instead of getting a set per level. This is also helped by the necessity of Mana to power them, the cap on Mana usage per action, and the fact tat to change the dimensions/effects of the spells also require more feats. The Mage class has the upper hand in that they can acquire spells via class ability (as a bonus feat). What's more is you don't have to simply be a squishy caster that casts from the back. You can be a frontline fighting mage wwith certain feat combinations.

Quote from: beejazz;559628Magic bonuses I can sort of see, but mundane is a bit weird. Where would that apply when equipment, situation, etc. do not? If it's just nonmagic class abilities, it might be better to call it a competence bonus or something more specific.

How prominent are morale bonuses going to be? Is there going to be an NPC morale system, or is it just going to be a specific bonus type?

Alchemical boosters, drug boosties, abilities that would give a competence bonus, etc all would fall under "mundane".

Quote from: beejazz;559628How prominent are morale bonuses going to be? Is there going to be an NPC morale system, or is it just going to be a specific bonus type?

This question is important and I don't know yet. I'm thinking about digging into 2e for the DM to have a special "encounter roll" that might shift the NPCs effectiveness slightly up or down. Perhaps giving them tags like "exhausted" or "filled with anger" or some other set of circumstances that might afford them bonuses right from the start. That's just to mix things up though and isn't necessary. It was an interesting idea someone from the Den thought up but right now I am concentrating on just getting the framework finished.

So now more.

HP and SHP: HP in my game specifically represents critical damage avoidance. Any time a character loses HP it means they got nicked, cut, scraped, or somehow otherwise injured but in a not so life threatening or debilitating way. Now in the first iteration of HP I wanted to do something that made losing HP costly such that being low on hp was worse than when you were at full performance wise. I ended up nixxing the idea to save time and ease up on the difficulty level that would cause on the game. Fluff wise I reason that characters subconsciously twist fate such that they are allowed to survive more dangerous situations. It can alternately be reasoned that they're Mana infused body because tougher as they accrue more power. Both work actually.

Right now you have your hit points and your stock hit points.

Hit points, as I said, represent dodging critical blows. When you run out of HP you start taking Con Damage for every hit. At low levels this is dangerous, at higher levels this will be straight up fatal. This is because your hp, and thus damage, scales in my game and after a certain point you can expect the same debilitating blow that would've caused 6 damage to your con to do over 20. This is intended as I believe that as you get higher level and more hp that the risk factor, and thus the difficult of the game, should grow. Hp scales slowly (1HP per level after the first) though so the numbers involved won't be getting up into the 20s or higher unless you're fighting something well below your level (get to why that happens later) or you are at the end game (near level 20).

Now you also have Stock Hit Points. This is actually inspired from 4e's healing surges. The idea that everyone should be able to recover HP struck me as something that is actually necessary. However 4E took it several steps too far by having Healing Surges heal "too much" and/or having abilities that straight up bypassed healing surges to heal someone infinitely. So, in order to reduce 15 minute workdays and prevent infinite or over abundant healing I have this system instead. Characters get a pile of Stock HP. Since HP doesn't represent actual wounds recovering it won't damage people's verisimilitude and can be explained as just channeling more mojo. Stock HP is a pile of unused HP that players have to channel in order to benefit from. Anytime a character's damage is healed they take an equal amount of SHP and turn it into HP. So if the Barbarian uses his "vigor" ability to heal 2 HP he loses to SHP.  By default everyone has the ability to slowly channel SHP into HP at a rate of about 1 hp per minute of rest. Abilities that allow quicker healing are faster but still use SHP so that people who want to play healer in battle can still opt to do so. This also promotes careful resource management. Your SHP total will, by default, be equal to your max HP.

Moving on: Attacks will be a bit more complicated than in 3rd I'm afraid. Now I've made this change knowing that it will slow things down because division is a bit tricky but I wanted there to be a number of ways to up damage outside of strength and I wanted to add some extra swinginess to damage output. Before I begin I want to say "to hit" is determined by "dexterity" or "wisdom" instead of strength.

First there is the attack roll. Most attacks go against Dodge. Regularly a person just have the "take 10 apply bonuses" that they have to roll against. Opposition can choose, however, to use an active defense by eating up an Attack of Opportunity. Active defense allows you to roll your defense and only take the result if its higher than 10 otherwise you use 10. Active defense is important for using other defensive abilities but I won't get into that. In either case you take the difference between your roll and the target's Dodge (whether the difference is positive or negative) and divide it by 2 rounding down. The result is the precision damage you're going to be dealing. So then comes damage. You roll damage whether or not you overcame the target's dodge. You then apply all your regular bonuses including precision (again whether positive or negative) and you come up with a damage total.

Now missing is still missing so if you don't overcome the target's dodge bonus any "on hit" effects you would get (as a number of attack based abilities would require) don't work if you don't hit. Now if you miss you may still drain a target's HP. However, you cannot do Con damage if you missed the attack.

Now this is a little more complicated in that it involved division however its a springboard to make other plans work such as grappling. A grappler should be able to easily over power smaller creatures but faster creatures should be harder to get a good hold of. So to allow this to happen when you grab someone you still make an attack roll. You then can only make the grapple if you hit. If you miss the grapple is canceled. If you "it" you make an opposed fortitude roll (fortitude being modified by "strength' or "constitution"). This allows slippery characters to evade grapples while putting them in a disastrous situation if they get caught.

This pretty much applies to all the other combat maneuvers such as bullrushing, tripping, and sundering in that they are "on hit" effects.

Quote from: MGuy;559635Alchemical boosters, drug boosties, abilities that would give a competence bonus, etc all would fall under "mundane".

Okay. I guess I can kind of see lumping alchemical bonuses and competence bonuses together, esp. if you want to keep the numbers down.

Additionally: Alchemy provides mundane bonuses, so I take it it's something non-magic classes can do as well as mages. I typically approve of an approach like this.

Quote from: MGuy;559638This question is important and I don't know yet. I'm thinking about digging into 2e for the DM to have a special "encounter roll" that might shift the NPCs effectiveness slightly up or down. Perhaps giving them tags like "exhausted" or "filled with anger" or some other set of circumstances that might afford them bonuses right from the start. That's just to mix things up though and isn't necessary. It was an interesting idea someone from the Den thought up but right now I am concentrating on just getting the framework finished.

Interesting... so this is like a combat relevant NPC attitudes bit?

I was thinking more of flight and surrender conditions that might apply to either side (with PCs' henchmen and all too).

Quote from: MGuyOther spells that out do other options (such as teleporting) come at higher action costs. IE Teleporting a short distance is better than moving there. Thus it has a higher action cost than just moving there.

Since you're still working on framework, I figured I'd check back in the OP. This one looks weird to me. Movement (by itself) is a free ability.

I figure with spells and such, there's not just the action cost. There's also the opportunity cost of the spell/feat slot. If it takes a double move to get the same deal as a move action, it might really reduce the value of that short range teleportation. It's pretty much only useful for bypassing impassable obstacles (and the range of what qualifies as impassible will shrink with skills if they scale indefinitely... at least normally).

And long range teleportation negates a multiday trip. It's main advantage is the time advantage (well... besides things like money and risk). So balancing it against the mundane option on the basis of time seems off somehow.

In D&D there's the Vancian system for managing resources so you have a finite number of times you can do this. For myself, I built a stance/aura economy instead. Have you considered building a new finite resource so you can limit things without negating their use?

QuoteC) Some magical things that are strictly better than other things do need to be held onto in order to hold to certain genre expectations. As such new and very restrictive limits are put in place to insure that nothing gets too ahead of in the game. Things like Summoning, Long term Mind Control, Teleporting long distances, divining things from various gods, magic item crafting, long distance scrying, traveling to different planes, etc are relegated to rituals and operate in such a way that the potential abuses are practically negligible.

You partially address all this here. I guess I'm just saying that the opportunity cost and ritual time might still leave long term teleports the only way to travel, if these are the only limits. Have you considered money on this one? Teleportation would be faster, but cost more (and would especially cost more than a trip with an accompanying hunter, who could obtain food more cheaply).

What other balancers might you use?

QuoteB) Skills don't work on skill points but instead go up automatically like Base Attack Bonus. You pay into buying a certain tiers instead of paying individual skill points.

I tend to like auto-advancement. What are tiers in this context?

QuoteC) All classes, races, etc get the same number of skills. Skill allotment is not adjusted by anything other than level. Base Attack Bonus (called accuracy bonus now), combat proficiency, and casting proficiency are now all skills. (for non casters casting proficiency gives you access to rituals and magic item crafting).

Another common houserule, but one I tend to like.

I take it there are no spell prereqs on magic crafting if non casters can use it?

Are rituals learned in the 2e sense (find em and put em in your spellbook), learned in the feat slots, or just something where you can try everything rituals can do? Are there checks, and are the consequences of failure wasted time, or more than that?

_____________

Sorry if I missed somewhere you already answered something. This thread's been heavy on the textwalling and multiquoting.

Quote from: MGuy;559654So now more.

HP and SHP: HP in my game specifically represents critical damage avoidance. Any time a character loses HP it means they got nicked, cut, scraped, or somehow otherwise injured but in a not so life threatening or debilitating way. Now in the first iteration of HP I wanted to do something that made losing HP costly such that being low on hp was worse than when you were at full performance wise. I ended up nixxing the idea to save time and ease up on the difficulty level that would cause on the game. Fluff wise I reason that characters subconsciously twist fate such that they are allowed to survive more dangerous situations. It can alternately be reasoned that they're Mana infused body because tougher as they accrue more power. Both work actually.

Right now you have your hit points and your stock hit points.

Hit points, as I said, represent dodging critical blows. When you run out of HP you start taking Con Damage for every hit. At low levels this is dangerous, at higher levels this will be straight up fatal. This is because your hp, and thus damage, scales in my game and after a certain point you can expect the same debilitating blow that would've caused 6 damage to your con to do over 20. This is intended as I believe that as you get higher level and more hp that the risk factor, and thus the difficult of the game, should grow. Hp scales slowly (1HP per level after the first) though so the numbers involved won't be getting up into the 20s or higher unless you're fighting something well below your level (get to why that happens later) or you are at the end game (near level 20).

Now you also have Stock Hit Points. This is actually inspired from 4e's healing surges. The idea that everyone should be able to recover HP struck me as something that is actually necessary. However 4E took it several steps too far by having Healing Surges heal "too much" and/or having abilities that straight up bypassed healing surges to heal someone infinitely. So, in order to reduce 15 minute workdays and prevent infinite or over abundant healing I have this system instead. Characters get a pile of Stock HP. Since HP doesn't represent actual wounds recovering it won't damage people's verisimilitude and can be explained as just channeling more mojo. Stock HP is a pile of unused HP that players have to channel in order to benefit from. Anytime a character's damage is healed they take an equal amount of SHP and turn it into HP. So if the Barbarian uses his "vigor" ability to heal 2 HP he loses to SHP.  By default everyone has the ability to slowly channel SHP into HP at a rate of about 1 hp per minute of rest. Abilities that allow quicker healing are faster but still use SHP so that people who want to play healer in battle can still opt to do so. This also promotes careful resource management. Your SHP total will, by default, be equal to your max HP.

SHP sounds pretty similar to Reserve Points from 3.5's Unearthed Arcana. Not that that's a bad thing, they were a fun rule to go with reduced hp totals or increased damage. But if you haven't checked that one out yet you probably should.

QuoteFirst there is the attack roll. Most attacks go against Dodge. Regularly a person just have the "take 10 apply bonuses" that they have to roll against. Opposition can choose, however, to use an active defense by eating up an Attack of Opportunity. Active defense allows you to roll your defense and only take the result if its higher than 10 otherwise you use 10. Active defense is important for using other defensive abilities but I won't get into that. In either case you take the difference between your roll and the target's Dodge (whether the difference is positive or negative) and divide it by 2 rounding down. The result is the precision damage you're going to be dealing. So then comes damage. You roll damage whether or not you overcame the target's dodge. You then apply all your regular bonuses including precision (again whether positive or negative) and you come up with a damage total.

The spending of AoOs to dodge is similar to what I ended up going with. Except in my case they are Reactions, and the trade down rule lets you forgo actions to get more of them. Additionally, there's a harsh penalty for not dodging in my system. Basically you use your modifiers (in my case dex mod and level) with no roll.

Not saying this is what you should go with or anything, but will maybe-a-bonus-maybe-nothing be worth the AoO slot? I mean, maybe, since AoOs are maybe-free-attacks-maybe-nothing. But it still just looks weird on paper, you know?

Precision damage is likewise a bit odd. Why not just scale damage bonuses at a rate that's more or less acceptable?

QuoteNow this is a little more complicated in that it involved division however its a springboard to make other plans work such as grappling. A grappler should be able to easily over power smaller creatures but faster creatures should be harder to get a good hold of. So to allow this to happen when you grab someone you still make an attack roll. You then can only make the grapple if you hit. If you miss the grapple is canceled. If you "it" you make an opposed fortitude roll (fortitude being modified by "strength' or "constitution"). This allows slippery characters to evade grapples while putting them in a disastrous situation if they get caught.

Rolling twice sort of lowers the odds of grappling working. What if grabbing and pinning were distinguished from each other? So grabbing still does something (including movement prevention, unless you were dumb and grabbed a giant or something) and the danger of pinning is part of what freaks out the little ones.

Quote from: beejazz;559660Interesting... so this is like a combat relevant NPC attitudes bit?

I was thinking more of flight and surrender conditions that might apply to either side (with PCs' henchmen and all too).

I'm going to have it so NPCs are easier to scare off in general but I'm not going to create a morale system for them. I pondered the possibility of making one but it becomes a bit too much to track in practice. More often than not my players chase NPC enemies down or don't give them a chance for surrender so there is no compelling reason for me to make such a thing.

QuoteSince you're still working on framework, I figured I'd check back in the OP. This one looks weird to me. Movement (by itself) is a free ability.

I figure with spells and such, there's not just the action cost. There's also the opportunity cost of the spell/feat slot. If it takes a double move to get the same deal as a move action, it might really reduce the value of that short range teleportation. It's pretty much only useful for bypassing impassable obstacles (and the range of what qualifies as impassible will shrink with skills if they scale indefinitely... at least normally).

I will make away to reduce action cost but the standard casting time for standard spells in my system is a standard action. However teleporting has several benefits beyond just passing pit traps. It also gets you out of grapples, from underwater, etc so I tend to value it a bit higher than movement. Regularly movement does have an action cost (a move action). I don't do spell slots though so that isn't a concern. It does cost a feat but the versatility of porting around is something I believe is well worth that expenditure.

QuoteHave you considered building a new finite resource so you can limit things without negating their use?

Mana. I do not however intend to limit the use of any ability to a number of times per day. I've never liked the "per day" scheme a lot of abilities come with so I intentionally have avoided making any of that.

QuoteI take it there are no spell prereqs on magic crafting if non casters can use it?

Magic item crafting and usage is a lot more limited than it is in DnD. I don't like "Ironman" Fighters so magic items are not something that's required to get ahead. Even if you have them the uses of magic items are purely horizontal, in that they only give you more options. As for magic item crafting prereqs there is the requirement that you have the item crafter ability which requires you too have oth the necessary craft skill and a casting proficiency of the appropriate level. (Both merely require investment in skills). From there things get a bit more complicated but I'll cover that in another post.

QuoteAre rituals learned in the 2e sense (find em and put em in your spellbook), learned in the feat slots, or just something where you can try everything rituals can do? Are there checks, and are the consequences of failure wasted time, or more than that?

I like the "find'em and get'em mixed with you getting some for free by opening up the option. Certain rituals (like summoning) require a specific "thing". Namely the correct *knowledge" skill. There are a mix of minor rituals (rites) that give you minor situation specific bonuses or outcomes (like burial rites, marriage rites, rites of passage, etc) and others are more costly like Long Range teleportation, atonement (if this even makes the cut), interplanar travel travel and the like. I can't think of any rituals that have a chance of failure. Essentially the bigger the effect the more costly/longer the rituals.

Long range teleportation is kept from  mitigating trips at all. Long range teleportation works on a portal system which means you have to go to the place you want to teleport to AND go to the place you want to teleport from and set up the gateways on both ends. This allows you to still have your journey without teleport screwing your adventures over and you cans till do the mystical gateway trope that people like.

Quote from: beejazz;559665SHP sounds pretty similar to Reserve Points from 3.5's Unearthed Arcana. Not that that's a bad thing, they were a fun rule to go with reduced hp totals or increased damage. But if you haven't checked that one out yet you probably should.

That's actually where I went to bring it in. at first I had something that was much closer to healing surges but I took that as inspiration and changed it up a bit.

QuoteThe spending of AoOs to dodge is similar to what I ended up going with. Except in my case they are Reactions, and the trade down rule lets you forgo actions to get more of them. Additionally, there's a harsh penalty for not dodging in my system. Basically you use your modifiers (in my case dex mod and level) with no roll.

Not saying this is what you should go with or anything, but will maybe-a-bonus-maybe-nothing be worth the AoO slot? I mean, maybe, since AoOs are maybe-free-attacks-maybe-nothing. But it still just looks weird on paper, you know?

The thing is, I expect people to use their AoOs on actual attacks and a significant portion of abilities require the use of an AoO. I might do the trade down thing in order to give people more AoOs but I'm not committed to that idea as it requires just a bit more bookkeeping on the player's part. The "maybe a bonus/maybe not paradigm is important in that I want people to be engaged. I haven't gotten to how defense works in more depth so I haven't explained that things like fighting defensively and full defense are still in the game and allow your active defense roll to be higher, thus practically guaranteeing a bonus. There are also swathes of defense focused abilities (parrying, reflecting, catching, etc) that will make Active Defense a reasonable option.

QuotePrecision damage is likewise a bit odd. Why not just scale damage bonuses at a rate that's more or less acceptable?

It allows me to play around with damage totals in a not so direct way. It means high dexterity fighters don't have to trade off as much damage for choosing not to be high strength and allows for more balanced builds.

QuoteRolling twice sort of lowers the odds of grappling working. What if grabbing and pinning were distinguished from each other? So grabbing still does something (including movement prevention, unless you were dumb and grabbed a giant or something) and the danger of pinning is part of what freaks out the little ones.

Grabbing is a different monster than attacking. Its an all or nothing trade off because once you get into a grapple the grapple victim's turn is lost. They either have to struggle to get out of it (takes up their turn) or attempt to do something while continuing to suffer from the grappling. Being grappled makes you unable to use larger than bite sized weapons, makes casting a pain in the ass and unlikely to happen, and runs the danger of only getting worse from there. Because of the dangers presented by grappling I want to make grappling a fair but not overpowering option. So I upped the chances that it just doesn't work. Usually people who want to have grappling be a "thing" will get a feat that allows them to, after being able to hit the target, have a definite advantage in succeeding in the opposed fortitude roll and sticking the grapple.

Edit: Grapple and pin are distinguished in that to pin an opponent you have to grab them first. Pinning makes things extra bad for the grapple victim. Once pinned all they can do is use up a turn unpinning themselves and even then they'd be prone afterward.

Quote from: MGuyI'm going to have it so NPCs are easier to scare off in general but I'm not going to create a morale system for them. I pondered the possibility of making one but it becomes a bit too much to track in practice. More often than not my players chase NPC enemies down or don't give them a chance for surrender so there is no compelling reason for me to make such a thing.

Mostly just curious about the details. You go on and make the game that suits how you play.

I find part of that attitude (the one that doesn't allow flight or surrender) comes from the dungeon environment and fear of retaliation. Flight and surrender are more common in my games because they lean towards in-town and mystery based fare. Surrender can mean interrogation, and flight means you don't have to waste time and resources on fighting.

QuoteI will make away to reduce action cost but the standard casting time for standard spells in my system is a standard action. However teleporting has several benefits beyond just passing pit traps. It also gets you out of grapples, from underwater, etc so I tend to value it a bit higher than movement. Regularly movement does have an action cost (a move action). I don't do spell slots though so that isn't a concern. It does cost a feat but the versatility of porting around is something I believe is well worth that expenditure.

Standard seems fair enough for that sort of thing.

QuoteMana. I do not however intend to limit the use of any ability to a number of times per day. I've never liked the "per day" scheme a lot of abilities come with so I intentionally have avoided making any of that.

I don't much like the per-day scheme, but I don't like attrition-based character resources as the core of play either (outside hp and gold that is) so I'll probably not be much help in mana pricing.

I take it that there's little like prep then? I mean, beyond carrying the right stuff into the dungeon.

QuoteMagic item crafting and usage is a lot more limited than it is in DnD. I don't like "Ironman" Fighters so magic items are not something that's required to get ahead. Even if you have them the uses of magic items are purely horizontal, in that they only give you more options. As for magic item crafting prereqs there is the requirement that you have the item crafter ability which requires you too have oth the necessary craft skill and a casting proficiency of the appropriate level. (Both merely require investment in skills). From there things get a bit more complicated but I'll cover that in another post.

A good approach. I'm making expendables pretty necessary, but working on making sure players stay constantly broke for the first three to five levels. Will permanent items be able to hold multiple upgrades, or are you keeping that limited weight as a strict cap on magic items?

QuoteI like the "find'em and get'em mixed with you getting some for free by opening up the option. Certain rituals (like summoning) require a specific "thing". Namely the correct *knowledge" skill. There are a mix of minor rituals (rites) that give you minor situation specific bonuses or outcomes (like burial rites, marriage rites, rites of passage, etc) and others are more costly like Long Range teleportation, atonement (if this even makes the cut), interplanar travel travel and the like. I can't think of any rituals that have a chance of failure. Essentially the bigger the effect the more costly/longer the rituals.

Mixed system could work alright. Went with featlike slots myself, if only because rituals are sort of a big deal there. Almost regret not going with the find 'em get 'em rules.

QuoteLong range teleportation is kept from  mitigating trips at all. Long range teleportation works on a portal system which means you have to go to the place you want to teleport to AND go to the place you want to teleport from and set up the gateways on both ends. This allows you to still have your journey without teleport screwing your adventures over and you cans till do the mystical gateway trope that people like.

I like portal-based stuff, but I prefer something like an expendable item you can carry (or a ritual... long casting times help prevent wrecking combat with this stuff) keyed to a portal on the receiving end. Sending portals still get used where needed, but as permanent portals that don't require a constant expenditure of resources.

But this is one of those things where anything but easy teleporting should help to mitigate the damage it can do, and houserules are common and easy.

Quote from: MGuyThe thing is, I expect people to use their AoOs on actual attacks and a significant portion of abilities require the use of an AoO. I might do the trade down thing in order to give people more AoOs but I'm not committed to that idea as it requires just a bit more bookkeeping on the player's part. The "maybe a bonus/maybe not paradigm is important in that I want people to be engaged. I haven't gotten to how defense works in more depth so I haven't explained that things like fighting defensively and full defense are still in the game and allow your active defense roll to be higher, thus practically guaranteeing a bonus. There are also swathes of defense focused abilities (parrying, reflecting, catching, etc) that will make Active Defense a reasonable option.

I guess I'll wait on the details before I comment much more on this then.

QuoteIt allows me to play around with damage totals in a not so direct way. It means high dexterity fighters don't have to trade off as much damage for choosing not to be high strength and allows for more balanced builds.

So it's a way to apply multiple stats? Fair enough. I've messed with stuff like this; just couldn't get it running quick enough for me.

QuoteGrabbing is a different monster than attacking. Its an all or nothing trade off because once you get into a grapple the grapple victim's turn is lost. They either have to struggle to get out of it (takes up their turn) or attempt to do something while continuing to suffer from the grappling. Being grappled makes you unable to use larger than bite sized weapons, makes casting a pain in the ass and unlikely to happen, and runs the danger of only getting worse from there. Because of the dangers presented by grappling I want to make grappling a fair but not overpowering option. So I upped the chances that it just doesn't work. Usually people who want to have grappling be a "thing" will get a feat that allows them to, after being able to hit the target, have a definite advantage in succeeding in the opposed fortitude roll and sticking the grapple.

Edit: Grapple and pin are distinguished in that to pin an opponent you have to grab them first. Pinning makes things extra bad for the grapple victim. Once pinned all they can do is use up a turn unpinning themselves and even then they'd be prone afterward.

I use assymetrical grabbing like Star Wars Saga personally. I think the light weapons rule makes more sense for the grabber than the grabbee in this case, though the grabbee can turn around and grab back.

As for preventing movement on a simple grab (which is pretty rough in terms of the action economy), you could just make movement an opposed strength roll when grabbing is happening. The worst offense of grappling (immobility) is 50/50 after the initial 50/50 instead of bumping the whole thing to 25/50. Likewise for the pinning, you could just make pinning harder rather than all of grappling (in my game, the pinner has to use a standard action to pin every round, and has to break the pin if he wants to defend against an attack).

I also leave prone-ness out of it mostly, unless you get thrown (the other cool move you can do to a grabbed guy, besides pinning).

Actually, I do have a little advice on the mana system: Make sure it's still balanced on the action economy somehow.

If 10 mana does 10 damage and 20 does 20, it is always better to spend 20 mana and one action on 20 damage than it is to spend 20 mana and two actions to do 20 damage. Whether it's damage dealing or healing. Similar logic applies to number of targets and such.

So either make sure there's diminishing returns on sinking further points into a spell, place a cap on the number of points that can be sunk into it, or both.

It's probably obvious, but I figured it was worth mentioning.

Quote from: MGuy;559633Depends on what level of Mage he is.

Everyone can practice "magic". There is no "magic" specific class. The mage would be the closest to that since all of his actual class abilities either allow him to get spells, metamagic feats, or allow him to use spells in a manner no other class covers.

Spells are kept under a tight reign. As mentioned before spells that everyone needs (like teleport, raise dead, plane shifting) are thematic and necessary for the game so they are rituals instead. Spells otherwise don't make you any more combatively powerful then any other class. Spells merely allow you to do very specific things with reality. They are more versatile than most of the more martial abilities (something that's seemingly impossible to avoid) but they don't do anything that would allow someone who concentrates on them to out do someone who chooses not to.

I still haven't started testing as of yet. The outlook I had on changing the spells was to keep the thematic ones, reduce overlap as much as feasibly possible, make it so that no one spell completely obviates the need for skills. What's more is acquisition of them is slower by virtue of having to rely on feats instead of getting a set per level. This is also helped by the necessity of Mana to power them, the cap on Mana usage per action, and the fact tat to change the dimensions/effects of the spells also require more feats. The Mage class has the upper hand in that they can acquire spells via class ability (as a bonus feat). What's more is you don't have to simply be a squishy caster that casts from the back. You can be a frontline fighting mage wwith certain feat combinations.

Tell me more.  Understand currently it looks VERY 4e to me. Please explain. :)

Quote from: beejazz;559754If 10 mana does 10 damage and 20 does 20, it is always better to spend 20 mana and one action on 20 damage than it is to spend 20 mana and two actions to do 20 damage. Whether it's damage dealing or healing. Similar logic applies to number of targets and such.

I think you mean "...spend 10 mana and two actions to do 20 damage."  Which is entirely logical, even if the damage is guaranteed and not a task resolution check; the second action could still be interrupted or denied.

Quote from: StormBringer;559790I think you mean "...spend 10 mana and two actions to do 20 damage."  Which is entirely logical, even if the damage is guaranteed and not a task resolution check; the second action could still be interrupted or denied.

I was talking totals. I'm not assuming interruption because I haven't seen it mentioned.

Quote from: beejazz;559799I was talking totals. I'm not assuming interruption because I haven't seen it mentioned.

Ok, my bad.

Quote from: MGuy;559686That's actually where I went to bring it in. at first I had something that was much closer to healing surges but I took that as inspiration and changed it up a bit.


 The thing is, I expect people to use their AoOs on actual attacks and a significant portion of abilities require the use of an AoO. I might do the trade down thing in order to give people more AoOs but I'm not committed to that idea as it requires just a bit more bookkeeping on the player's part. The "maybe a bonus/maybe not paradigm is important in that I want people to be engaged. I haven't gotten to how defense works in more depth so I haven't explained that things like fighting defensively and full defense are still in the game and allow your active defense roll to be higher, thus practically guaranteeing a bonus. There are also swathes of defense focused abilities (parrying, reflecting, catching, etc) that will make Active Defense a reasonable option.

 It allows me to play around with damage totals in a not so direct way. It means high dexterity fighters don't have to trade off as much damage for choosing not to be high strength and allows for more balanced builds.

Grabbing is a different monster than attacking. Its an all or nothing trade off because once you get into a grapple the grapple victim's turn is lost. They either have to struggle to get out of it (takes up their turn) or attempt to do something while continuing to suffer from the grappling. Being grappled makes you unable to use larger than bite sized weapons, makes casting a pain in the ass and unlikely to happen, and runs the danger of only getting worse from there. Because of the dangers presented by grappling I want to make grappling a fair but not overpowering option. So I upped the chances that it just doesn't work. Usually people who want to have grappling be a "thing" will get a feat that allows them to, after being able to hit the target, have a definite advantage in succeeding in the opposed fortitude roll and sticking the grapple.

Edit: Grapple and pin are distinguished in that to pin an opponent you have to grab them first. Pinning makes things extra bad for the grapple victim. Once pinned all they can do is use up a turn unpinning themselves and even then they'd be prone afterward.

I like precision damage. Again my heartbreaker has dex figther options and the effect my precision damage has is to bypass armour and reduce the ammount of damage the target can roll (in my game HPs sit about wounds asa damage soak)

For me figthers don't master weapons they master syles but fencing and knife fighting are dex based precision styles.

Quote from: MGuy;558574Kind of. I'm thinking first of role/theme protection when doing classes. I want classes to be a general enough that one class can fit a bunch of archetypes but "protected" enough such that they "feel" different then when you play other classes. I'm not sure how I would be able to design a class based system for a generic fantasy game by starting in any other fashion.

I took the design space. Devided into 3 components. Combat, Magic and Skills

Then I designed 3 classes. the Warrior, the Caster and the Rogue each of whom dominates one of those design spaces.

But that is the extend of my top down from then one I am all bottom up. All PCs have an archetype, Pirate, barbarian, Cavalier, Spy, Sorcerer, Batle Mage etc etc Each archetype sits under a class. There are an infinite number of archetypes the base game come with 10 and a kit to build more. Archetypes are applications of a limited set of rules with a cost model, Only the GM creates archetypes and they should be setitng spefic, The Setting book, which is really just a set of iterations of the various toolkits has settign specific archetypes arranged by culture and gerography.

This gives me the flexibility I want and the feel of lots of player options without massive exponentional growth in rules. I dislike the D&D paradigm of more rules more rules more classes more rules.

So the Gladiator warrior archetype has d12 HP, gains an addtional rank in a weapon style of their choice and an additional rank in a skill called Assess Opponent, They can pick skills from the Warrior list only. They can use any armour and can take all armour skills to Grand Mastery apart from Archery. Likewise for any weapon.
Costs per level are (you get 10 points per level)
Defence : 2 Max 1 per level
Attack : 2 Max 1 per level
Skills : 4
Magic Source : 40
Manna dice : 5
Doom: 10 (a doom is a prophesy rolled randomly can be good or bad and sets up a quest of sorts)

Now all that stuff is common there are no special Gladiator effects at 5th or 9th level  but the way the gladiator shakes out will make him very different to a Knight or a Barbarian and toally different to a Saint or a Wizard.

The Archetype system still needs tweaking.

Quote from: Marleycat;559769Tell me more.  Understand currently it looks VERY 4e to me. Please explain. :)

MArley, at this point I'm not sure what 4e IS to you. Have you played it for any solid length of time. For example I played it for about 3 months every weekend. I ran 2 different characters (one on saturday one on sunday). I came to the conclusion that I hated 4E in that tie. Then later found out, as more splats came out and people talked about it more, that there were even more reasons or me to not like it than even I had experienced. Now I find people treating 4E like hitler and anything that reminds someone vaguely of 4E must be like 4e. I can see how some of my system might sound like 4E since a number of the things I've included appeared in 4E (though all of them appeared well before 4E was introduced in one system or supplement somewhere). Even so I don't see how my spells remind you of 4e at all.

Quote from: beejazz;559709I use assymetrical grabbing like Star Wars Saga personally. I think the light weapons rule makes more sense for the grabber than the grabbee in this case, though the grabbee can turn around and grab back.

As for preventing movement on a simple grab (which is pretty rough in terms of the action economy), you could just make movement an opposed strength roll when grabbing is happening. The worst offense of grappling (immobility) is 50/50 after the initial 50/50 instead of bumping the whole thing to 25/50. Likewise for the pinning, you could just make pinning harder rather than all of grappling (in my game, the pinner has to use a standard action to pin every round, and has to break the pin if he wants to defend against an attack).

I also leave prone-ness out of it mostly, unless you get thrown (the other cool move you can do to a grabbed guy, besides pinning).

You actually make an interesting point. i believe I will institute the immobility at the very least if the initial grab action hits its mark. After that the second roll will just be for taking control of the grab. If your grab succeeds you don't need to make any more rolls. You just declare what you want to do with your grab and do it on your turn. Meanwhile the victim has to struggle to get out of it so only the victim is making rolls once you have control of the grab.

Quote from: beejazz;559754Actually, I do have a little advice on the mana system: Make sure it's still balanced on the action economy somehow.

If 10 mana does 10 damage and 20 does 20, it is always better to spend 20 mana and one action on 20 damage than it is to spend 20 mana and two actions to do 20 damage. Whether it's damage dealing or healing. Similar logic applies to number of targets and such.

So either make sure there's diminishing returns on sinking further points into a spell, place a cap on the number of points that can be sunk into it, or both.

It's probably obvious, but I figured it was worth mentioning.

This is something I've pondered but I don't have any particular problem with people wanting to go Nova. The Mana set up is used more to allow for abilities to scale easy more than anything else. I actually intend on characters with 10 mana to be blowing 10 mana on each ability at the level they are allowed to blow that much on it. In fact that's why I have HP scale just to accommodate this. This also inspires players to do what it takes to keep their mana up which helps on the management side. They also have to deal with continuous effects (like if they shape shift, mind control someone, buff someone, etc) if they way to keep up those from round to round, and that eats up mana.

I'll have more later. I'm feeling under the weather today and I don't think I can bring myself to answer more right now.

Quote from: MGuy;560156MArley, at this point I'm not sure what 4e IS to you. Have you played it for any solid length of time. For example I played it for about 3 months every weekend. I ran 2 different characters (one on saturday one on sunday). I came to the conclusion that I hated 4E in that tie. Then later found out, as more splats came out and people talked about it more, that there were even more reasons or me to not like it than even I had experienced. Now I find people treating 4E like hitler and anything that reminds someone vaguely of 4E must be like 4e. I can see how some of my system might sound like 4E since a number of the things I've included appeared in 4E (though all of them appeared well before 4E was introduced in one system or supplement somewhere). Even so I don't see how my spells remind you of 4e at all.

It's the whole everyone is a spellcaster, magic is highly restricted and regulated
Everyone with the same power scheme deal.  Classic 4e.

Quote from: Marleycat;560169It's the whole everyone is a spellcaster, magic is highly restricted and regulated
Everyone with the same power scheme deal.  Classic 4e.

You haven't played 4E then. Martial classes explicitly don't use "magic". In core at least one of the fighter's best abilities is swinging a sword at something at a good angle. One of the best abilities (or so I heard) in the game at the point was "Blade Cascade" which just allowed you to keep attacking a target until they died or you missed or something. What's more is that you were only able to get abilities off your list. Cross class ability cherry picking wasn't in the core game.
The only thing you've pointed out with a line to 4e is everyone basically having the same power scheme (because everyone uses Mana) and that idea is not exclusive to 4E at all.

Quote from: jibbajibba;559830I like precision damage. Again my heartbreaker has dex figther options and the effect my precision damage has is to bypass armour and reduce the ammount of damage the target can roll (in my game HPs sit about wounds asa damage soak)

For me figthers don't master weapons they master syles but fencing and knife fighting are dex based precision styles.

I like the idea of precision damage too. It allows characters that are more accurate or less strength inclined to be able to do noticeable damage. There are no "fighters' in my game and fighting styles are more opened up to everybody (as spells are).

Quote from: jibbajibba;559836I took the design space. Devided into 3 components. Combat, Magic and Skills

Then I designed 3 classes. the Warrior, the Caster and the Rogue each of whom dominates one of those design spaces.

But that is the extend of my top down from then one I am all bottom up. All PCs have an archetype, Pirate, barbarian, Cavalier, Spy, Sorcerer, Batle Mage etc etc Each archetype sits under a class. There are an infinite number of archetypes the base game come with 10 and a kit to build more. Archetypes are applications of a limited set of rules with a cost model, Only the GM creates archetypes and they should be setitng spefic, The Setting book, which is really just a set of iterations of the various toolkits has settign specific archetypes arranged by culture and gerography.

This gives me the flexibility I want and the feel of lots of player options without massive exponentional growth in rules. I dislike the D&D paradigm of more rules more rules more classes more rules.

So the Gladiator warrior archetype has d12 HP, gains an addtional rank in a weapon style of their choice and an additional rank in a skill called Assess Opponent, They can pick skills from the Warrior list only. They can use any armour and can take all armour skills to Grand Mastery apart from Archery. Likewise for any weapon.
Costs per level are (you get 10 points per level)
Defence : 2 Max 1 per level
Attack : 2 Max 1 per level
Skills : 4
Magic Source : 40
Manna dice : 5
Doom: 10 (a doom is a prophesy rolled randomly can be good or bad and sets up a quest of sorts)

Now all that stuff is common there are no special Gladiator effects at 5th or 9th level  but the way the gladiator shakes out will make him very different to a Knight or a Barbarian and toally different to a Saint or a Wizard.

The Archetype system still needs tweaking.

My game isn't divided among those lines so I definitely see how our end results ended up being different. I'm going for a generic system as well though. "Combat" is something I expect everyone to do so everyone has access to abilities that allow them to do it. The class's, outside of their unique abilities, are designed with the intention of promoting certain "fighting styles" as mentioned before. Magic is a lot more accessible and skills are available to everyone to about the same degree. While there are class skills (10 points in ten different skills that you get when starting the class) because of my non skill point system they only give you a rank up in the listed skills which means that your profession (5 skills), Race (3 skills), and specialization (2 skills) have about as  much influence on your starting point as they do. From there you can develop any skill you want.

Outside of that I have12 classes (Still debating on what the 12th is going to be but the others are well into development) that are as non restrictive as they can be without totally abandoning any hint of flavor.

For example the Champion (since I've been talking about him so much) can be your regular sword and board defender for the team. He can be a duelist that specializes in defensive maneuvers. He can be a horse riding hospitaler, a member of cavalry who is practically invincible and highly mobile on his ride, etc.

The classes are so generic that I almost considered just making a "generic classless system" to begin with but I wanted something class based for whatever reason.

Quote from: MGuy;560225You haven't played 4E then. Martial classes explicitly don't use "magic". In core at least one of the fighter's best abilities is swinging a sword at something at a good angle. One of the best abilities (or so I heard) in the game at the point was "Blade Cascade" which just allowed you to keep attacking a target until they died or you missed or something. What's more is that you were only able to get abilities off your list. Cross class ability cherry picking wasn't in the core game.
The only thing you've pointed out with a line to 4e is everyone basically having the same power scheme (because everyone uses Mana) and that idea is not exclusive to 4E at all.

Do even have any ideas what comes out your ass? Seriously?  I played That game you fuckwit. Everyone does use magic that's what the inanity of power sources are. Mana has jackall about that or identical power slots, sheesh! I ask for an explanation and I get insults what is it about so many of you 4e'ers?

Quote from: Marleycat;560325Do even have any ideas what comes out your ass? Seriously?  I played That game you fuckwit. Everyone does use magic that's what the inanity of power sources are. Mana has jackall about that or identical power slots, sheesh! I ask for an explanation and I get insults what is it about so many of you 4e'ers?

Its not an insult its an observation. If you read the abilities in core then you'd know classes with the "Martial" source don't get "mystical" powers. They get :Martial" powers which, if you indeed did read and pay attention are specifically not mystical in scope or description. The power sources are split up explicitly so classes with a different power source don't get the same fluff as others. So for you to say everyone gets magic powers (at least in core) I have to assume you didn't actually read the abilities.

And yes, Mana doesn't have jack all to do with power slots or them being identical but what does that have to do with the response I gave you? The fact that you took what I said as an insult just means you either read what I wrote in the worst way possible or indeed don't know as much about 4e as you thought and I called you out on it. I don't like 4E myself but I like to keep my reasons for not liking it legit.

Quote from: MGuy;560333Its not an insult its an observation. If you read the abilities in core then you'd know classes with the "Martial" source don't get "mystical" powers. They get :Martial" powers which, if you indeed did read and pay attention are specifically not mystical in scope or description. The power sources are split up explicitly so classes with a different power source don't get the same fluff as others. So for you to say everyone gets magic powers (at least in core) I have to assume you didn't actually read the abilities.

And yes, Mana doesn't have jack all to do with power slots or them being identical but what does that have to do with the response I gave you? The fact that you took what I said as an insult just means you either read what I wrote in the worst way possible or indeed don't know as much about 4e as you thought and I called you out on it. I don't like 4E myself but I like to keep my reasons for not liking it legit.

Redoing it all you want it's magic weeboo. Presentation, it's all in the presentation.  Either way that isn't the subject I just wanted an explanation.  I got it but don't like it.Move along.

So I mentioned magic item crafting earlier so I'm going to go more into detail with that. Before I get to magic items though I need to bring up a tidbit on how crafting and magic items work in general.

First let me say making a crafting system is a pain in the ass. Its about as painful as attempting to make a socializing system. Now generally craft "thing" is a background skill in that it doesn't have many uses. In 3rd edition crafting was either under powered (you didn't get enough time to craft what you want, what you could craft wasn't worth not getting stealth) or overpowered (You had magic item crafting and basically could craft any magic item you wanted and fucked the wealth by level system sideways). I've never seen any middle ground with this without changing how crafting works. On one side of things the ability was so blah that some people forgot they had it at all while on the other end you needed to be able to craft magic shit and have loads of time on your hands to do it. Craft just didn't do enough for me such that I would give away bonuses on craft away practically for free.

In my game I respect that people want to be able to craft stuff, so unlike profession and perform which aren't skills anymore I decided to keep crafting in. First off there are 5 kinds of crafting:

Alchemy: Things made out of plants, bodily fluids from creatures, made artificially through chemistry, etc.

Engineering: Constructs, buildings, vehicles, etc

Herbalism: Anything made primarily out of plants (this includes lumber from trees)

Smithing: Anything made primarily out of stone or metal.

Weaving: Using various things to produce cloth, rope, and anything else that's woven together.

Being trained in any of these allows you to make knowledge checks about things made through these skills and gives you the ability to "mine" for them under appropriate circumstances.

Now some people might say that these are too general. I would agree but to make these more specific would invite needless, and at the end of the day unappreciated, complexity.

There are various things you can do with the craft including being able to take apart, repair, or damage things related to the crafting skill better. You can generate gold (as profession allowed you to) or generate the material you need to craft whatever in order to mitigate the actual cost. These are also necessary skills for rafting magic items.

Moving on: Magic Items.

Now there are tree types of magic items: Regular "Implements", "Artifacts", and single use Magic items.

Single use magic items are things like scrolls. They don't use the craft skill to make though as scrolls require the linguist skill in order to make and cast.

"Implements" are the main magic items the game will have in bulk though. Firstly I'm going to mention that to use an implement takes a feat. Yes, that's right. To use these kind of magic items requires a permanent expenditure, but there is a reason. This is to keep things under control. Getting the feat allows you to open an "Implement Slot". This does mean some people will be able to create but not use magic items. This is ok with me. Now Implements merely copy spell powers much like scrolls except that they copy them indefinitely and use the Mana from the wielder in order to operate.

For example you have a Flaming Sword that, when activated, shot a small ball of fire 30ft. This would be usable from level one. The fire ball is emulating a first level spell with one meta magic attached (That is the basic Fire spell + Extend to make it ranged). The user deals X amount of damage with it at base (For a first level fire spell this would be 1d6 + Charisma Bonus). The wielder, by default, only has to use one point of mana to power it. When wielding the weapon that Mana is used whenever the ability is activated. A user may place more Mana into it for greater effect. For example if they use 2 Mana on it it deals 1d6 + 2 + Charisma bonus damage.

Now this is all pretty basic stuff nothing complicated so far. So what happens down the road when our adventurer comes into possession of a magic cape of flying? Well Fly is a 2nd level spell but its also a channeling spell which means it costs 2 Mana to start and locks up 1 point of Mana per turn. So since our adventurer only has one slot he may choose to stop powering the sword and power the cape instead. Now this means he can wear both and still use the sword for what it is while benefiting from the cape. If, during a fight, he wants to use the sword again he has to switch which item he's fueling (swift action). So basically an adventurer can have a golf bag of goodies they can switch in and out of use on the fly.

So that would seem like it would kick actually casting magic to the curb right? Well in order to make sure casting magic wasn't put on the back burner and overshadowed by having a bunch of maic items I made a few rules. Firstly magic items are truly unique. There is no wealth buy level system and magic items are hard to make (they cost XP which most normal NPCs don't have) and aren't sold in regular markets (so are drastically overpriced and hard to find). so there is no "expected" way to get a magic item and once gotten it can be sold by groups who aren't interested for ludicrous amounts of cash should you have access to the right markets. What's more magic items aren't as versatile as spells. Metamagic doesn't work on them (which means the ranged attack fireball on the sword will always be ranged), they can be broken as any regular item, and they cannot overcome antimagic effects (as the "caster" would be the item and thus doesn't have a roll to oppose it). So several things actually keep magic items from breaking magic over its knee.

Artifacts I won't go into detail as they are planned to be as rare as artifacts from D&D. Artifacts in essence are items that break all the rules. They won't and will not be meant to keep the game balanced. An Artifact shouldn't be given lightly. Artifacts don't require a feat to use and thus are usable by anybody.




So with that explained we move on to the act of crafting a Magic Item. As mentioned before crafting a magic item requires having the correct craft feat and the correct knowledge. The craft skill has to be relevant to the item you imbue the spell into. As a point of order temporary items (such as potions) cannot be enchanted nor can larger constructs (which kicks engineering to the curb). A spell must be weaved into the item when crafted, so you have to decide when you crafting the item for it to be magical. You have to know about the spell you want to imbue on the item (that's where knowledge comes in) and have enough Mana to actually cast it. If the item will produce an effect that would require Metamagic you must also have the applicable metamagic feat. Crafting the item takes twice as long as regular and requires you to expend XP on creating. Now this expenditure of XP won't stop you from gaining a level (I'll explain that when I explain "Plot Devices") but the cost will be considerable nonetheless (numbers are not available right now as some math is still being hammered out over XP gains and levels). After crafting the item the crafter's ability to craft another such item will be locked for a time equal to however long it took them to create the item.

That's all I feel like typing before lunch, more later on.

Quote from: MGuy;560162This is something I've pondered but I don't have any particular problem with people wanting to go Nova. The Mana set up is used more to allow for abilities to scale easy more than anything else. I actually intend on characters with 10 mana to be blowing 10 mana on each ability at the level they are allowed to blow that much on it. In fact that's why I have HP scale just to accommodate this. This also inspires players to do what it takes to keep their mana up which helps on the management side. They also have to deal with continuous effects (like if they shape shift, mind control someone, buff someone, etc) if they way to keep up those from round to round, and that eats up mana.

So you can cast your highest level 1/day or a couple lower level spells (instead of highest level 1/day and lower level spells)? This is shaping up pretty differently from standard D&D here.

How does one get back mana? Is it a daily thing? Roughly encounterly? Spend actions in combat to recharge? Sorry if I missed something.

Additionally, are full mages more combat-capable than in 3x standard? How big a deal this smaller gas tank is depends partly on what's left when you run out.

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On items, I'm seeing a few things I like and a few things I don't.

I like that it doesn't look like there's failure on item crafting. Making item creation a gamble was pretty dumb of 3x, even if they had gotten it balanced. For my own potion skill, I had rolls determine the number of doses, with the minimum still at one. Similar reasoning there.

I don't like the TGD item slot logic, nor do I like XP for items. Mostly just a taste thing, but I prefer a limited number of items on hand (the rest are in your pack and harder to get out), a stricter weight economy (no bags of holding), and a market that doesn't even know what to do with the money they're asking for magic items (so you'll be paying for things in acres of land instead).

People powering magic items I can take or leave, but I'm a little baffled how that's going to make constructs work.

Oh, and aren't downtime costs sort of contextual? As in, it might be a big deal or it might not matter at all, depending on what's happening? I don't know if you'd see this as a problem or not, but it's just a bit weird.

Quote from: beejazz;560674So you can cast your highest level 1/day or a couple lower level spells (instead of highest level 1/day and lower level spells)? This is shaping up pretty differently from standard D&D here.

How does one get back mana? Is it a daily thing? Roughly encounterly? Spend actions in combat to recharge? Sorry if I missed something.

Additionally, are full mages more combat-capable than in 3x standard? How big a deal this smaller gas tank is depends partly on what's left when you run out.

_____

On items, I'm seeing a few things I like and a few things I don't.

I like that it doesn't look like there's failure on item crafting. Making item creation a gamble was pretty dumb of 3x, even if they had gotten it balanced. For my own potion skill, I had rolls determine the number of doses, with the minimum still at one. Similar reasoning there.

I don't like the TGD item slot logic, nor do I like XP for items. Mostly just a taste thing, but I prefer a limited number of items on hand (the rest are in your pack and harder to get out), a stricter weight economy (no bags of holding), and a market that doesn't even know what to do with the money they're asking for magic items (so you'll be paying for things in acres of land instead).

People powering magic items I can take or leave, but I'm a little baffled how that's going to make constructs work.

Oh, and aren't downtime costs sort of contextual? As in, it might be a big deal or it might not matter at all, depending on what's happening? I don't know if you'd see this as a problem or not, but it's just a bit weird.

There are no 1/day slots so everything a character has is pretty much always available to them as long as they have the actions, Mana, etc to actually use them. I' not planning on staying particularly close to "traditional D&D". I don't wanna feel like there are any sacred cows or legacy things that I would be forced to keep.

How one recharges Mana depends on the class. The default way (everyone has) is to get 1 Mana back per minute of rest. The mana count is low (the default max being half the character's level rounded up) which makes things easier. As mentioned different classes have different recharge mechanics. For example:

The Barbarian gains mana whenever he takes damage. He gains mana equal to half the damage he took.

A Champion has a separate Mana pool called "Resolve". Whenever the Champion is targeted he gains resolve. He may use this resolve as Mana but if he does he loses it. A number of abilities' have their effectiveness change based off of how much/little resolve the Champion has. So he has to balance having mana to use vs the effectiveness of some of his abilities.

The Performer (Bard) recharges Mana with every turn he performs. Performing eats up the smallest action it can except when starting it or using a performance effect.

Scoundrels (rogues) can "borrow" Mana. They can spend as much Mana a they want but must "pay it back" a minute later or suffer consequences. They can reduce the "payback" cost by making "sneak attacks" in order to steal the necessary Mana from opponents.

Druids naturally gain Mana and can retain twice the normal amount. They regain half of their max every round. A lot of their class abilities are continuous effects that grow in effectiveness based off of how much mana the druid has left so once again a balancing act may occur (which is the intent).

Mages just get a large pile of Mana that actually can't be regenerated during combat effectively (takes about 5 minutes). A Mage is either encouraged to go completely nova on all their abilities or to plan and use them wisely.

All in all Mana acquisition is how I plan on influencing people's fighting styles. If someone finds clever ways to game these that is also ok with me.

As for whether or not full mages are more combat capable than 3rd standard I'd have to say yes and no. Yes in that there aren't as many things keeping a given mage type class from participating fully in melee or other styles of combat. No in that there are no Save/Die or Save/Suck effects. With magic toned way the fuck down mages aren't killing or majorly gimping ancient beings with a single spell.


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On items: There are indeed no bags of holding or anything but I'm more anti magic item than most people from TGD. Were it not for a good portion of people I game with insisting otherwise magic items would've been taken off the table completely. However, since I'm keeping them and there's a whole lot of utility to be had with basically having a spell that you didn't put in a feat for I figure the cost/opportunity expenditure to get magic items, slot them up, and use them that it was a good balancing point.

That balancing mechanism makes it a lot easier to simply not worry about magic items at all. There's no reason I have to worry about how many they get, how hard they work to get them, or anything really. The weight thing is still on (encumbrance works pretty much the same way as it does in 3rd) and there are no extra dimensional space items unless you drop an artifact because there are no extra dimensional space spells. Its a lazy way to do it but one that keeps the theme I'm goin' for.

As for contextual time yes, I'm familiar with the issue. I mentioned as much. but I'm not going to worry about it. Crafting magic items isn't necessary for the game and the time it takes to craft them isn't really a "punishment" or anything its more of just an arbitrary length of time. Crafting takes time, crafting magic shit logically takes more time.

I do like having a characters' magic items and spells draw from the same mana pool. It makes a certain sense (unlike milestones). I was thinking of doing something similar with a system I'm doing at the moment (though I was considering using some sort of ability damage mechanic rather than level-based mana).

Quote from: beejazz;560674I like that it doesn't look like there's failure on item crafting. Making item creation a gamble was pretty dumb of 3x, even if they had gotten it balanced. For my own potion skill, I had rolls determine the number of doses, with the minimum still at one. Similar reasoning there.

I don't know do you fail item crafting in 3.x ?
We actually ditched the magic item creation feats and added a bunch of Craft skills for magic item creation, so that it would be failable process (where are these cursed items coming from again?). Few people ever bothered taking the feats when you could just get an NPC to do it (albeit at higher cost).

Is this based on 3rd edition?

Quote from: Declan MacManus;560916Is this based on 3rd edition?

It started that way. Its become quite a different looking monster at this point.

Quote from: MGuy;560702How one recharges Mana depends on the class. The default way (everyone has) is to get 1 Mana back per minute of rest. The mana count is low (the default max being half the character's level rounded up) which makes things easier. As mentioned different classes have different recharge mechanics. For example: (snipped)

Okay, so it's one of those thematic recharge things with a point system. So kind of like Iron Heroes or Bo9S? I can see that working well with max total being the same as the cost of the highest level ability.

Scoundrels and champions (and to some extent druids) look interesting in their recharge effects.

QuoteAll in all Mana acquisition is how I plan on influencing people's fighting styles. If someone finds clever ways to game these that is also ok with me.

I'm not one to disparage rules mastery myself, as long as the rules run according to their goals most of the time.

QuoteAs for whether or not full mages are more combat capable than 3rd standard I'd have to say yes and no. Yes in that there aren't as many things keeping a given mage type class from participating fully in melee or other styles of combat. No in that there are no Save/Die or Save/Suck effects. With magic toned way the fuck down mages aren't killing or majorly gimping ancient beings with a single spell.

I was asking more about the former than the latter, though I figured that sort of offensive magic might be toned down.

QuoteOn items: There are indeed no bags of holding or anything but I'm more anti magic item than most people from TGD. Were it not for a good portion of people I game with insisting otherwise magic items would've been taken off the table completely.

Personally, I'd normally recommend not including things you don't like as much. Especially if you're not after D&D's sacred cows.

QuoteHowever, since I'm keeping them and there's a whole lot of utility to be had with basically having a spell that you didn't put in a feat for I figure the cost/opportunity expenditure to get magic items, slot them up, and use them that it was a good balancing point.

My gripes are mostly about the feel of the rules. But if it works it works.

How do you plan on dealing with the way different items can be "powered" by multiple in-game effects? Druids for example might be better at using magic items from the sound of it. Or there may be exploits. Like what if the barbarian includes himself in an AoE for a neverending mana loop? I know, I know... costs hit points. But the specifics could get hairy.

QuoteThe weight thing is still on (encumbrance works pretty much the same way as it does in 3rd) and there are no extra dimensional space items unless you drop an artifact because there are no extra dimensional space spells. Its a lazy way to do it but one that keeps the theme I'm goin' for.

I'm cool with bans on extradimensional spaces and unbreakable walls of force and anything terribly easy to exploit and not especially iconic, as a rule. It's not so much lazy as it is sane.

QuoteAs for contextual time yes, I'm familiar with the issue. I mentioned as much. but I'm not going to worry about it. Crafting magic items isn't necessary for the game and the time it takes to craft them isn't really a "punishment" or anything its more of just an arbitrary length of time. Crafting takes time, crafting magic shit logically takes more time.

Personally, I use the workshop requirement to keep crafting out of the dungeon (which is what I see the time as useful for).

If wealth/gear is not critical for character power growth, will you be scaling back treasure? Giving the party something else to spend it on? Assuming the bulk of it goes to expendables?

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;560907I don't know do you fail item crafting in 3.x ?
We actually ditched the magic item creation feats and added a bunch of Craft skills for magic item creation, so that it would be failable process (where are these cursed items coming from again?). Few people ever bothered taking the feats when you could just get an NPC to do it (albeit at higher cost).

Craft skill rules had failure that wasted ingredients, IIRC. Magic item creation not so much.

Quote from: MGuy;560944It started that way. Its become quite a different looking monster at this point.

If there is even a fraction of 3rd edition in it's DNA, then the game is utter shit, and can only ever aspire to just shit. I won't waste any of my time looking at it for fear of getting shit in my eyes.

How dare you wave shit around at me? How dare you???

You're wasting your time. Write a nice dice pool game instead.

Quote from: beejazz;560945Personally, I'd normally recommend not including things you don't like as much. Especially if you're not after D&D's sacred cows.

If it weren't specifically people I actually game with insisting on it I'd toss it out. I don't think its inclusion will be that big of a deal hopefully.

QuoteHow do you plan on dealing with the way different items can be "powered" by multiple in-game effects? Druids for example might be better at using magic items from the sound of it. Or there may be exploits. Like what if the barbarian includes himself in an AoE for a neverending mana loop? I know, I know... costs hit points. But the specifics could get hairy.

Druids wouldn't need magic items much. The Druids are built ideally to be able to cast spells regularly. Druids also just gain Mana at a set rate. If they expend too much in a single round they can't up their recharge rate like the barbarian because they have a set income rate they have to worry about. This means they are more suited to using continuous effects that have an expected cost per round to use which is easier on them then going  Nova every round.

The barbarian cannot endlessly generate Mana because it not only costs HP to do so (and SHP to heal the damage) but he doesn't have an extra pool for Mana which means he can only gain a maximum of half his level at any point. So doing the same thing continuously is possible but it doesn't really put the barbarian ahead. The Barbarian is meant to essentially use a single Mana based ability a turn at full then get back to smashing things (attacks don't cost Mana unless its used for special effect).

QuotePersonally, I use the workshop requirement to keep crafting out of the dungeon (which is what I see the time as useful for).

Some things straight up don't need a workshop like making arrows, basket weaving, and similar small time things. Other things do like Engineering and Smithing since with those you are working on larger projects or more difficult material. A number of alchemical items would be "shop" specific but I haven't gotten too deep into the specifics of gear yet. I'm supposed to have a helper aiding me and doing a bunch of cost weight fixes on gear but he's proven very unreliable thus far so I'm probably going to end up having to do it myself at some point.

QuoteIf wealth/gear is not critical for character power growth, will you be scaling back treasure? Giving the party something else to spend it on? Assuming the bulk of it goes to expendables?

I wanted to get rid of Wealth by Level as it only seems to ever cause problems. It either necessitates the usage of items, promotes players to try and find a way to circumvent it for more power, necessitates DMs to shut down players that try to gain a bunch of wealth too quickly, etc. So by making so that having a bunch of money doesn't offset game balance in any major fashion I free it up for the players and DM to fool around with it. Players can now use wealth to buy their castles, flying ships, armies, luxury, whatever and not have to worry about not getting that magic sword they wanted because their characters wanted to splurge. You can also play characters that are consistently broke and not have to depend on handouts to survive. So those constantly broke Conan types, the vow of poverty mofos, the charity case Paladins can all work without special rules.

Okay, arrow fletching and stuff is a good reason to not put a workshop req across the board, and ditching WBL I can get behind.

As for weight/value ratios, I'm afraid I don't have much to contribute except to say that I'm in the same (ish) spot wondering what to do about mules. Value them too low, and the bonus carrying capacity becomes a big deal. Value them too high and cattle rustling starts to look too good (they're treasure you don't have to carry). Random encounters can help a bit with both, but you don't want mules to be more trouble than they're worth. [/tangent]

If there's a historical period you're after you could start with researching that period and letting the chips fall where they may, especially if WBL is a non-issue. You could always tweak it after the fact if you uncover issues.

Quote from: beejazz;561119Okay, arrow fletching and stuff is a good reason to not put a workshop req across the board, and ditching WBL I can get behind.

As for weight/value ratios, I'm afraid I don't have much to contribute except to say that I'm in the same (ish) spot wondering what to do about mules. Value them too low, and the bonus carrying capacity becomes a big deal. Value them too high and cattle rustling starts to look too good (they're treasure you don't have to carry). Random encounters can help a bit with both, but you don't want mules to be more trouble than they're worth. [/tangent]

If there's a historical period you're after you could start with researching that period and letting the chips fall where they may, especially if WBL is a non-issue. You could always tweak it after the fact if you uncover issues.

Dropping WBL is something that obviously needs to happen. Nothing WBL does or promotes has ever been any good for my games. It suffers as many problems as conflict based XP in all honesty so I nixed them both.

Tired for tonight so I don't have anything to add for tonight. I may drop some more stuff thursday when I'm off.

Well after a catastrophic hardware/software failure I won't be updating this for a long time as I have to redo much of the work I've already done now.

Ouch.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;563044Ouch.

You have no idea. However I've already done my crying and wondering how the fuck my external hard drive and laptop could both freak out on me in the same day. So I just have to dust off and start all over again.

With the loss of a second laptop I am getting pretty frustrated with making my rules set. I had been lazily been working on it for a long time and lost the lion's share of what I'd done. Then, when I got done crying over the spilled milk (and my terabyte hard drive) I wiped away my tears and got started again. I got 4 pages day one. 17 pages 2 days later when I was off. Tried to save that and somehow got shunted back down to 4. Got back to page 10 after recovering from procrastinating again. This time it just didn't pretend to let me save and the whole machine decided it wasn't even going to pretend working any more. Well I'm over that depression and I'm going to use all this frustrated energy to focus again. However, I don't want to do it alone again.

The little side project BStupidJ made has inspired me to get a hopefully functional team together that is willing to help me bring this thing to life. I explained a bit of what I'm doing Here (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=52002l) and  here (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=23390). If this seems interesting to you hand you have some spare time, and perhaps some sample ideas, please feel free to hit me up. I only need a small team, like 3 or 4 people who are willing to work on this completely not for profit time sink.

I'd be willing to help out a bit as a minion - fair's fair, since you're helping me on my thing.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;569502I'd be willing to help out a bit as a minion - fair's fair, since you're helping me on my thing.

Well thank you. It'll be about a week before I finalize a team. It may be a bunch more people it may be just a duo thing but I'll decide that by the 16th.

For now you've posted in this thread so you have an idea of what I'm going for already. Are there any major questions?

Cheers. I think I have a reasonable idea of what you're attempting, but OK some minor questions:
 
Any thoughts as to what sort of races would be included? Also how that interacts with classes - I find it a problem in some games that there's optimum matches (Minotaur/Fighter or Elf/Ranger or whatnot).
 
I'm gathering its quite different to 3E at this point already, but is compatibility with d20 to any extent a goal? Or is the aim to construct the best system possible, regardless of how extensive changes are?

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;569694Cheers. I think I have a reasonable idea of what you're attempting, but OK some minor questions:
 
Any thoughts as to what sort of races would be included? Also how that interacts with classes - I find it a problem in some games that there's optimum matches (Minotaur/Fighter or Elf/Ranger or whatnot).
 
I'm gathering its quite different to 3E at this point already, but is compatibility with d20 to any extent a goal? Or is the aim to construct the best system possible, regardless of how extensive changes are?

Thanks for the interest. I'm gonna be getting a new laptop soon but in the mean time I've resorted to using dead tree format for my work.

A bunch of classic races will be included. I tried to make some twists on them to keep things fresh. Right now races get a single ability, an attribute modifier (only a single bonus), and a bonus to one of the defenses and 2 skills. After that I'm still deciding but I'm thinking I'm going to allow races to pick up "sub" abilities as you level. Right now I'm planning on 5 that you get on levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18. Nothing game changing but they'll just add to the player's repertoire.

Right now I have plans for about 8 Primary Races including Beastkin (like shifters from eberron), Dwarves, Elves, Humans, Kinfolk (reskinned Halflings), Kobolds (for dragon people), Orcs, Shifters (like changelings from eberron) that fit neatly into the setting with a number of other races on the drawing board and with goblins serving primarily as antagonists.

Beastkin are a bunch of forest dwelling animal people who worship and revere the forest. They act as the forest warping elves for the setting. They are the "Closest" to nature. They are also only mammals.

Dwarves come in 3 flavors: Forge, Sea, and Storm. They are also now "elementals". Each has a dual element and resides in different areas mostly away from most other societies. Forge dwarves are earth and fire and live under the mountains. Bonus points if they can find a volcano. Sea Dwarves are Water and Ice and live in the seas/oceans. Bonus points if its in the arctic. Storm Dwarves live on mountains and seek the stormiest mountains to live on. They come in different shapes, sizes, and colors depending on their sub group but are all hairy (with women having more hair on their head and eyebrows). Forge Dwarves are your familiar stocky, surly dwarves. THey would remind people more of Duergar than regular dwarves, 'cept without the evil or psychic powers. Sea dwarves are more medium sized and stoic. Storm dwarves are tall and tend to be proud.

There are 3 kinds of elves (Light, Dark, Twilight). They are considered "Fey" and are keepers of the Future, Past, and present respectively in their mythos.  The "light" elves are ruthless tyrants who believe that only they are "good" enough to control the future. The Twilight elves are the regular joes in comparison. The Dark Elves are rampant traditionalists and keepers of ancient lore often playing at odds with the Light Elves in secret shadow games. Elves also have been moved from the forests to being a more civic minded race.

Humans are still your every day man race. It is important to note that they are the dominant race and share about as much of the spotlight as other races. I'm thinking of making just a few uniform human subcultures (no real world analogues) but for right now they are just seen as a mysterious and godless race of seafarers.

Kinfolk will act as your halfling sized amazons (or garuda if you are familiar with Legend of Zelda). They are quite numerous and aggressive. They act a lot like you would expect orcs or particularly well organized and community oriented goblins to work in most lazily written settings.

Kobolds are still dragon people of various elements and flavors (adjusted for my setting's dragons of course. They are also technicians and are pretty much spearheading the technical revolution in the steampunk setting.

Orcs happen to be the big brutish people you'd expect. They are giant blooded and proud of it. They are also traditionalists but are very accepting of anything that gets the race as a whole ahead. There are about 2 kinds of orc, Winter and Summer.

Shifters are like the shapeshifters presented in eberron. In this setting shifters are aberrations that have lost their purpose. In older times they were meant to do "some thing" but as a race they've forgotten and now live in hidden enclaves either keeping to themselves or living hidden among other races.

To answer your other question compatibility is not a goal nor is it desired. I am indeed making a system (as best as I can) almost from the ground up using 3rd as a spring board.

Heard of Zelda but never played it (I was a Sega guy in my misspent youth), so the only 'garuda' I've heard of is the large...Indian? Indonesian?...mythological bird the airline is named after.

All the race stuff looks pretty cool though. Perhaps beastmen could have multiple animal varieties that give slight variations in power, and making them more flexible so that the GM could have cat people or wolf people or whatnot in their campaign?

Ability modifiers for races perhaps brings up the question of how exactly you're generating attributes. I think 3.x/4E has a problem with the way it does it,  where you spend varying numbers of points (equal to ability modifier) to raise a stat by 1, then apply fixed bonuses for race, level or items later - I'd rather a consistent point system be used throughout.

Another question might be whether/to what extent you include racial disadvantages (e.g. in older D&Ds there are halfling size penalties, dwarf speed, elves being unable to be Raised, and so on).

On the dead tree thing, you could always set yourself up a yahoo group or similar to upload your files to for safekeeping. Or email them to yourself periodically.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;569894Heard of Zelda but never played it (I was a Sega guy in my misspent youth), so the only 'garuda' I've heard of is the large...Indian? Indonesian?...mythological bird the airline is named after.

All the race stuff looks pretty cool though. Perhaps beastmen could have multiple animal varieties that give slight variations in power, and making them more flexible so that the GM could have cat people or wolf people or whatnot in their campaign?

Ability modifiers for races perhaps brings up the question of how exactly you're generating attributes. I think 3.x/4E has a problem with the way it does it,  where you spend varying numbers of points (equal to ability modifier) to raise a stat by 1, then apply fixed bonuses for race, level or items later - I'd rather a consistent point system be used throughout.

Another question might be whether/to what extent you include racial disadvantages (e.g. in older D&Ds there are halfling size penalties, dwarf speed, elves being unable to be Raised, and so on).

On the dead tree thing, you could always set yourself up a yahoo group or similar to upload your files to for safekeeping. Or email them to yourself periodically.

I'm not that much of a zelda fan but I remember them from Ocarina of time (I also may have spelled it wrong).

As for Beastkin that's exactly how they are. Again they are similar to shifters from eberron except that they always have their special animal trait (nothing game changing) and they all only get a +2 to awareness no matter what kind of animal trait they have. Of course it follows that they "look" like the animal in question so you have your cat people and wolf people but there aren't major differences between the two. IE dog person can be just as strong or stronger as wolf person and they both can have bites that do the same amount of damage.

Right now there are no "disadvantages". You just pick up your racial traits and go from there. Racial "disadvantages" are on the back burner but wouldn't come until I'm doing some kind of in depth look at the race as a whole.

For generating Ability scores I have that much typed up again. I only am planning to have point buy (randomness is unnecessary in my opinion for character generation). Some of the rules are: no attribute gets above 16, none below 7 during generation, racial comes in after generation. Otherwise attributes work largely like they do in 3rd. Here they are:

Power
Power gives a measure of a Character's physical prowess. It represents how much physical force a Character can exert on the world.
Characters with a lot of Power tend to be more muscled and dense. They are able to perform well at tasks that demand direct physical might such as breaking and lifting. Characters that lack power tend to be weaker and more frail.
A Character's Power Score determines their Encumbrance Rates. A Character who's Power Score reaches 0 become unable to move in any way and may start to Suffocate from the weight of their own body. Characters without a Power Score cannot physically effect the world.
A Character's Power Score Bonus modifies: Fortitude, Climb, Fly, Jump, and Swim Checks. It modifies Melee and Thrown Weapon Damage Rolls. It may also be used on random rolls where brute force is necessary (such as breaking an object).
Special Note – Objects do not have a Power Score unless they are able to move. Even then if the Object is unable to move under its own power it merely adjusts the Power Score of the operator and only when being used for its specific function (like a pulley). If an Object can move under its own power then the Power Score is still only applied to its function.

(Details of Encumbrance in Document but think of it just like the PHB for simplicity's sake)

* A Character can Lift up to twice max load but is Staggered while doing so.

* A Character can Push/Drag up to 5 times their max. Certain conditions can adjust this.
These rates are based on Medium Sized Characters. Being of a different size can change the Encumbrance Rates of a Character (details in document).

*Having more legs can also increase Encumbrance Rates. Being a Quadruped of a Size Category lower than Medium double their Encumbrance Rates. Those Medium and above multiply their Encumbrance Modifiers by 1 and a half.


Resilience
Resilience gives a measure of a Character's physical health and toughness. It represents how much physical punishment a Character can endure.
Characters with a lot of Resilience tend to have very strong and healthy genetic features and structure. They are also able to recover faster from injury and prove more durable and resistant to disease and poisoning. Characters lacking tend to have less defining or memorable bodily features and are generally more sickly and out of shape.
A Character's Resilience Score determines their Endurance Rate and how many Wounds they can take before Death. A Character who's Resilience is reduced to 0 dies as their body ceases to function. A Character who does not have a Resilience Score does not have a physical body.
A Character's Resilience Bonus modifies their: HP, SHP, Physical Damage Resistance, and Fortitude. It also is used for any Endurance Checks that the Character makes.
Special Note – Objects do not have Resilience Scores. They instead have a Structure Score that determines their Encumbrance Rates.

Agility
Agility gives a measure of the Character's grace and coordination. It represents how well balanced a Character is and how dexterous their actions are.
Characters with a lot of Agility tend to have an abundance of hand eye coordination. They tend to be quick to react and leaner in form.
A Character who's Agility Score is reduced to 0 cannot coordinate their movements and is rendered Immobile and Prone as they are reduced to random flailing. Characters without an Agility Score don't move.
A Character's Agility Bonus modifies their: Accuracy, Dodge, Acrobatics, Balance, Escape Artist, Legerdemain, and Stealth. It also is used when performing actions that require sharp reflexes or coordination.

Awareness
Awareness gives a measure of a Character's perception and instincts. It represents how well tuned a Character's senses are.
Characters with a lot of Awareness tend to have sharp senses and remarkable intuitive skills. They generally are quick to pick up on a situation.
A Character who's Awareness Score is reduced to 0 cannot perceive the world around them in any way and cannot function, rendering them Helpless. Characters without an Awareness Score do not perceive.
A Character's Awareness Bonus modifies their: Accuracy, Dodge, Insight, Investigate, Perception, and Survival.  

Intellect
Intellect gives a measure of a Character's knowledge and memory. It represents a Character's aptitude for processing and retaining information.
Character blessed with a lot of Intellect tends to remember and take in information easily. They are generally well read or knowledgeable about any number of subjects.
A Character who's Intellect Score is reduced to 0 cannot retain memories or process thoughts which renders them either comatose or unresponsive. Characters that do not have an Intellect Score do not have conscious thoughts.
A Character's Intellect Bonus modifies their: Will, Magic Damage Reduction, Crafts, Knowledges, Linguistics, and Treatment. It also modifies the number of Active Wards a Character can use.

Personality
Personality gives a measure of a Character's  charm and presence. It represents a Character's ability to impose their will on others and to attract the loyalty and admiration of their peers.
Characters born with a strong Personality tend to be expressive and attract the admiration of others. They are generally well spoken and willful.
A Character who's Personality Score is reduced to 0 loses their sense of self and is rendered catatonic. A Character that does not have a Personality Score cannot distinguish between itself and anything else.
A Character's Personality Bonus modifies their: Will, Magic Damage, Animal Handling, Deception, Intimidate, and Manipulate. It also modifies the number of Active Cohorts a Character can use.

There are a bunch of key terms scattered throughout here and here are some of the explanations:
HP – Also known as Hit Points, these represent a Character’s ability to avoid serious injury. As long as a Character has HP they avoid losing Attribute Points when taking Damage. Whenever HP is recovered it generally depletes the Character’s SHP pool. A Character may channel SHP turning it into HP at a rate of 1 point per minute of Rest. A character may also Naturally Heal HP equal to 8 + Resilience Modifier during Full Rests.

SHP – Also known as Stock Hit Points, these represent a Character’s reserve Hit Points. Each time a character recovers Hit Points an equal amount is subtracted from the character’s Hit Points. Characters only recover SHP during Full Rests at a rate of 8 + Resilience Modifier.

Defense – All Characters have three Defenses: Fortitude (used to defend against Combat Maneuvers, Poisons, Diseases, and other bodily ailments), Dodge (used to dodge incoming hazards and Attacks), and Will (used to resist mental/metaphysical attacks and affects). Defenses are generally Passive but may be rolled as part of an Active Defense.

Combat Maneuver – Combat Maneuvers are special Attack Actions a Character can take in order to produce a special result. Every Combat Maneuver starts with an attack and then the effect is determined afterward. Basic Combat Maneuvers include Grab, Push/Pull (Bull Rush, Trample, Overrun), Called Shot (Disarm, Sunder)

Physical Damage Reduction – This value reduces all Physical Damage taken.

Meta Damage Reduction – This value reduces all incoming Metaphysical Damage taken.

Attack – Attacking is the most basic Combat Maneuver you can utilize. To make an attack you must have a Line of Effect to a target in your reach and then you make an Attack Roll using the appropriate Attack Bonus. Your attack roll is then compared to the target’s Dodge Defense.

Basic Attack Formula: Accuracy Bonus +Agility/Sense Bonus + Bonuses + Weapon Penalty + Etc

Defense – Every character has three defenses that are used to resist attempts at damage. When defending against something a character generally uses their Passive Defense Bonus though they may perform the Basic Defensive Maneuver called an Active Defense Action that allows them increase their Defense. Some actions or abilities may only be applied when using an Active Defense.

Fortitude – This defense is used against bodily attacks, Combat Maneuvers, poisons, diseases, internal damage, and similar affects. Abilities and affects that target Fortitude are felt internally by the victim whether or not the save is made the victim will know that something felt wrong with their body and may feel a bit queasy or shaky afterward.

Defense Formula: Fortitude Bonus + Power/Resilience Bonus + Size Bonus + Etc

Dodge – This defense is used to evade attacks and affects. This defense represents a mixture of luck, quick thinking, instinct, fast reflexes, and good timing. A character might not know that they were even assaulted when this Defense holds if the assault was unseen or imperceivable though they might feel that something is amiss or discover the problem by using a Awareness Based Skill or Ability.

Defense Formula: Fortitude Bonus + Agility/Awareness Bonus + Size Bonus + Etc

Will – This defense is used to resist and overcome mental attacks and affects. This defense represents force of will. When this Defense holds a character might know that they are being tested but will not know how or by whom. If this Defense is tested in conversation using Skills then the character will without a doubt know they are being tested but are subject to all the affects of the ability and may not react negatively unless given sufficient reason to do so.

Defense Formula: Fortitude Bonus + Intellect/Personality Bonus + Size Bonus + Etc

Update
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Races – There are any number of Races and creatures within Mana Sphere's Setting that Players can expect to have ready access to. For now though only the Primary Races will be presented here-in for the purposes of Character Generation.  Selecting a race determines a Character's general look and provides a number of features and abilities specific to that Race.

Beastkin – Beastkin are largely forest dwelling animal blooded people who are said to descend from the God of Beasts himself. Beastkin are fierce protectors of nature, They are a mysterious people who have learned to live with nature instead of needing to take from it.
Physical Description – Beastkin  may look wildly variant from Beastkin to Beastkin. Beastkin stand about the size of a Human but can vary within that depending on what kind of animal blood they draw from. Smaller animals tend to have smaller builds and vice versa. Otherwise Beastkin share many of the traits of their bloodline where feline Beastkin tend to have whiskers and owl Beastin tend to be feathered. It is possible for Beastkin to interbreed and mix traits though most Beastkin avoid mixing blood.
Creature Type – Beast
Base Move Speed – 30ft / 6 Squares
Attribute Bonus – Awareness +2
Defense – Dodge +1
Racial Ability: Bestial Trait – Beastkin develop abilities based on the animal they share blood with. When generated Beastkin may choose one of the following traits and gain the associated Skill Point:
Ambler – Increases Move Speed by 20ft when moving on all fours. +1 Acrobatics
Clawed – Gain Natural Weapon: Strike and Proficiency with Natural Weapons. +1 Climb
Hide – Gain Natural Armor of your choice. +1 Hit Points
Horned – Gain Natural Weapon: Gore and Proficiency with Natural Weapons. +1 Intimidate
Large Lunged – Gain the ability to hold your breath for four times the length of time before necessitating an Endurance Check for Suffocation. +1 Swim
Tailed (Prehensile) – Gain a Prehensile Tail capable of fine manipulation. +1 Acrobatics
Tailed (Semi-prehensile) – Gain a Semi-prehensile Tail, Natural Weapon: Slam, and Proficiency with Natural Weapons. +1 Balance
Toothed – Gain Natural Weapon: Bite and Proficiency with Natural Weapons. +1 Intimidate
Wild – Gain an Enhanced Sense (Dark Vision, Echolocation, Precision Sight, Scent, Tremor Sense). +1 Perception
Winged – Gain Wings capable of Flight. +1 Fly
Racial Skills: Choose any 1 of the below Skills.
Animal Handling
Knowledge: Nature
Survival

Dwarves – Dwarves come in three primary varieties. Forge Dwarves  are stocky earth born grim surly people that primarily live beneath mountains, preferably volcanoes, an hammer out their existence there. Storm Dwarves are taller wind blessed Dwarves that live high within the mountains looking down upon all others. Sea Dwarves live low beneath the depths in arctic regions largely keeping to themselves.
Physical Description – All Dwarves  tend to have thick, plentiful hair. The men having it all over while women have long heads of hair, thick eyebrows and distinctly curvy figures.
Creature Type – Elemental
Base Move Speed – 30ft / 6 Squares
Attribute Bonus – Resilience +2
Defense Bonus – Fortitude +1
Racial Ability – Elemental Blessing:
Forge Dwarf – Earthbound – You may use your Resilience Score in place of your Power Score to determine Encumbrance Totals. Additionally while on the ground you suffer no Penalties from Medium Encumbrance and Armor never slows your Move Speeds.
Storm Dwarf – Airborne – You may bend the air around you to enable Flight. You may also take Fly as one of your Racial Skills. Whenever you fall you may use an Opportunity Action to slow your fall for a number of feet up to your Move Speed.
Sea Dwarf – Waterlogged – You may breathe underwater as if you were breathing on land. Additionally Cold Conditions never slow you and you are never in danger of slipping on icy or wet surfaces (treat the Balance DC as unchanged  by these conditions).
Racial Skills: Choose any of the 2 below Skills. Cannot choose the same one multiple times.
Balance
Climb
Jump
Linguistics
Knowledge: Sage

Elves – There are three primary Elven Sub Types discussed here: the Light, Twilight, and Dark Elves. They are also known as Thanes, Sidhe, and Drow respectively. Within their lore they are considered keepers of the future, present, and past respectively.
Physical Description – Light Elves are the tallest and tend to have pale to golden shades of skin with long hair, often kept in exotic and complex styles. They tend to have long faces and sharp features. Twilight Elves are shorter than High Elves and have skin tones going from various shades of grey and hair of various lengths depending on their style, profession, or culture. Dark Elves tend to be as tall as High Elves but have jet black skin tones varying slightly between slightly red to midnight blue hues with similarly colored hair.
Creature Type – Fey
Base Move Speed – 30ft / 6 Squares
Attribute Bonus – Intellect +2
Defense Bonus – Will +1
Racial Ability – Fate's Blessings:
Light Elves – Dowsing – Once per day a Light Elf may designate a specific creature or thing that is of some importance to them or their current goals. Whenever they are within Close Range of something directly or closely related to the "thing" in question they are alerted to it and are given a single Perception Roll to identify it. This alert only occurs once per triggering stimulus between Full Rests.  This ability does not trigger for the same stimulus after you've found it. Lastly Light Elves can see in Blinding Light  as ell as normal light and can't be blinded by bright flashes of light.
Twilight Elves – Balance – Twilight Elves may choose a single Racial Skill  and reduce the Error Range of that skill by an amount equal to half their Level rounded up. Additionally once between Full Rests they may Take 10 on a roll after knowing the Result even if conditions wouldn't normally allow for it.
Dark Elves – Secrets – Dark Elves have photographic memories and can completely memorize anything they see or hear. They may then reproduce it whenever they choose to. Once between Full Rests a Drow may designate a roll they've made and reuse the Die Result on a later roll instead of rolling regularly.
Racial Skills: Choose any 2 of the below Skills. May not choose the same one twice.
Craft: Any 1
Knowledge: Any 1
Linguistics
Perception
Treatment

Humans – Humans are wildly varied and mysterious people. They are mostly known as seafarers who's origins are largely unknown. They've only recently gained a foothold on the shores of the main continent because of the tumultuous times. Humans thus far have proven themselves to be no fools and a legitimate threat to the powers that be. There are two primary empires that have settled on the primary continent but there are no significant differences between the people.
Physical Description – Humans share a lot of generic traits but are highly varied amongst themselves and thus do not stick to many conventions unless entire cultures are considered.
Creature Type – Humanoid
Base Move Speed – 30ft / 6 Squares
Attribute – Any 1 +2
Defense – Any 1 +1
Racial Trait – Skilled – Choose one of your Racial Skills and gain a Bonus Skill Feat for it. Also gain a +1 Bonus to one Attribute Score that isn't your highest.
Racial Skills: Choose any 2 neither of which can be the same.

Kinfolk – Kinfolk are a mostly female race of short athletic people. They are known for their numbers, ferocity, and territorial natures. Most people see them as wild, primitive, savages who have a worse reputation  than the Beastkin. This is mostly because of their violent tendencies toward would be invaders. Many individual or smaller groups of Kinfolk have can be found abroad and have been seen to be about as civilized as any other sentient race. Within their own social structure Kinfolk most outsiders are seen as the savage ones. They are deeply connected with plants and enjoy spending time among foliage and in the sunlight. Lack of either over a long period of time tends to leave them depressed and moody.
Physical Description – Kinfolk are mostly female and have athletic bodies and browned skin. They have long, green hair that often rises up and slips down their backs. Males, much more uncommon than females, look a bit more muscular than females but both look similar for the most part. They stand on average at about 3 and a half to 4 feet tall. They tend to have large eyes and slender bodies.
Creature Type – Small Plant
Base Move Speed: 20ft / 4 Squares
Attribute – Agility: +4, Awareness: +2, Power: -2, Resilience: -2
Defense – Dodge +1
Racial Trait – Woodland Stride – Kinfolk are very adept at moving through the forests and cannot be tracked in verdant settings by any means save for other Kinfolk or those with heightened Tracking abilities. They are also no impeded by Difficult Terrain.
Racial Skills: Chose any 2 of the Skills below. You may not pick the same one twice.
Acrobatics
Balance
Climb
Escape Artist
Insight
Jump
Perception
Stealth
Survival


Orcs – Orcs have certainly earned their reputation for being the toughest and unrelenting foes one could face. They are proud of their long history of conflict and can attest to never being completely conquered despite the efforts of some. Orcs lead an embattled history and this has shaped their culture. Their people are also fractured with some having been taken in by other races and used for labor while others have retreated to harder to invade territories and carved out a place for themselves there. Still, collectively, Orcs are a strong, imposing, and proud people. There are 2 primary types of Orc: Summer and Winter Orcs.
Physical Description – Orcs are uniformly tall and well muscled people, evidence of their Giant heritage. Women tend to be more slender and curvy than males. They are only about as hairy as Humans and have varying hair lengths based on culture and style. Summer Orcs tend to have darker skin tones, mostly varying shades of grey with coarse black hair. Winter Orcs tend to have lighter tones keeping a more light green tone with lighter hair tones.
Creature Type – Giant
Base Move Speed – 30ft / 6 Squares
Attribute – Power +2
Defense – Fortitude +1
Racial Trait – Orcish Toughness – Orc Natural Healing Rates are doubled. Additionally when calculating SHP orcs multiply their HP total by 1.5.
Racial Skills: Choose any 2 of the below Skills. You may not select the same one twice:
Hit Points
Martial Proficiency
Climb
Intimidate
Jump
Survival
Swim

Shifters – Shifters are a seemingly cursed race. Other races tend to meet them, once exposed, with almost equal parts hate and mistrust. To this end Shifters live in the shadows, in secret or hiding within the light. More than anything a Shifter values secrecy. It is whispered among the few existing Shifter circles that they have a mysterious purpose that has been long forgotten but most Shifters simply keep to themselves, applying their skills to survival and even conquest.
Physical Description – When not in disguise shifters are pale, almost featureless, aberrant looking humanoids. They are pale have flat noses and no mouths. They have long black eyes and uniform, slender forms. When in disguise, which most Shifters stay there are no defining features that bind one Shifter to another. Typically they stand between 5 and 7ft tall and tend to take forms similar to those around them.
Creature Type – Aberration
Base Move Speed – 30ft / 6 Squares
Attribute – Personality +2
Defense – Will +1
Racial Trait – Alter Self – Shifters can shift their physical form to that of another creature. This ability allows the Shifter to use the Disguise Skill Task at will with no other equipment. This ability does not provide or alter clothing however. A Shifter cannot make major physical changes to their anatomy other than the act of switching genders. Otherwise they cannot add new appendages (IE extra arms, wings, etc), create new internal organs, or any other major changes like that. They may, however, change their skin tone, slightly change their height, hair length/color, nail length, eye shape/color, etc. These changes are skin deep and differences in internal anatomy will remain.
A Shifter when generated has an alter ego starting off. This is different to their base form and must be fleshed out. This alter ego is what they transform to whenever their "real self" is to be revealed. Even when knocked unconscious or if a piece of their body is separated from them it is the form their body takes. To turn into their base form against their will is always considered to be something worse than death to ask for and any attempts to force them to do it are treated as such. Only in death or by choice does a Shifter shift to their base form. All Shifters gain a Skill Point in Deception.
Racial Skills – Choose any 1 of the below Skills.
Insight
Intimidate
Knowledge: Any 1
Linguistics
Manipulate

Looking pretty good, I think.
Reading over it, specific comments:
*quite liked the "double max. load = staggered" - fairly tight bit of integration/good reuse of conditions.
*I'd think keeping the abilities with the same names as D&D (at least mostly) avoids confusion so long as their function is largely unchanged.
 
Races - the descriptions all look fine to me. On specific racial abilities, the elf 'reduced error range' function has me slightly worried re. how complex the skill system may end up being, and I didn't like the dark elf "store dice roll" power since its somewhat meta and perhaps abusable or annoying (encouraging PCs to roll for mundane events until they can store up a "20").
The Earthbound dwarf trait is odd since it makes a characters Str irrelevant for calculating encumberance, and may do nothing for many characters (if their Str is higher).
Creature type "giant" (orc) - this word is starting to get a bit misleading if its also used for medium-size creatures.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;570164Looking pretty good, I think.
Reading over it, specific comments:
*quite liked the "double max. load = staggered" - fairly tight bit of integration/good reuse of conditions.
*I'd think keeping the abilities with the same names as D&D (at least mostly) avoids confusion so long as their function is largely unchanged.
 
Races - the descriptions all look fine to me. On specific racial abilities, the elf 'reduced error range' function has me slightly worried re. how complex the skill system may end up being, and I didn't like the dark elf "store dice roll" power since its somewhat meta and perhaps abusable or annoying (encouraging PCs to roll for mundane events until they can store up a "20").
The Earthbound dwarf trait is odd since it makes a characters Str irrelevant for calculating encumberance, and may do nothing for many characters (if their Str is higher).
Creature type "giant" (orc) - this word is starting to get a bit misleading if its also used for medium-size creatures.

It's coming along bit by bit. I can only work on this at certain times when I can clear my schedule to do so since I let my girlfriend use my computer often and I work. Anyways:

Error Range - I change the "fumble" system away from simply rolling a one which by default is the system's error range. "Errors" only occur on skill checks that actually list them and the effects of an error are concretely spelled out so there are no confusion issues nor does it necessitate the GM to make something up. Errors and Criticals both follow this and certain (minor) abilities, conditions, etc increase and/or decrease Error and Critical ranges. They can both be reduced to 0  or increased to take up half the RNG.

Dark Elf Store a Roll - This is actually intentional and something integrated into the setting where Dark Elves are often seen doing something repetitively until they gain a critical success so essentially you can count on a Dark Elf at least getting one critical starting off a random fight. Compared to some of the more "interesting" racial abilities I feel like the Dark Elfs is pretty tame. However none of this is written in stone so if you have a better idea that fits the fluff I'm all ears (thus the point of making a team).

Forge Dwarves' Encumbrance - It does nothing for characters with higher Strength which is why I added the extra ability of not being held back by armor or a medium load. The Con to encumbrance thing is again all part of the minor racial abilities thing.

"Giant" Blooded Orcs - "Giant" is going to be a creature type but giants aren't going to be the only large sized creatures so I felt that I needed orcs to have a certain spin and since they are by and large very tall people I wouldn't think its too much of a stretch to think of them as giant blooded. I'm thinking of giving them a racial ability they can pick up where they get "large build" like the Half-Giants and Goliaths of 3rd Edition.

Update
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Professions – Before a Character can gain a Class Level they generally have a Profession. A Character's Profession reflects what they were doing before the game begins. Sentient Characters of all Tiers have access to a Profession as long as they have reached the age of maturity. Characters that are too young to have one simply don't have a Profession and are very unlikely to have a Class.

Acolyte – Knowledge: Divine, Knowledge: Sage, Linguistics, Mystic Proficiency, Will

Aristocrat – Deception, Insight, Linguistics, Manipulate, Will

Artisan – Craft: Any 1, Investigate, Knowledge: Any 1, Perception, Fortitude

Brawler – Hit Points, Accuracy, Intimidate, Fortitude, Dodge

Criminal – Deception, Escape Artist, Legerdemain, Stealth, Dodge

Courier – Escape Artist, Linguistics, Pilot, Survival, Dodge

Entertainer – Acrobatics, Balance, Deception, Manipulate, Dodge

Explorer – Climb, Jump, Survival, Swim, Fortitude

Healer – Animal Handling, Insight, Knowledge: Any 1, Treatment, Will

Hunter – Animal Handling, Perception, Stealth, Survival, Fortitude

Laborer – Hit Points, Climb, Jump, Pilot, Fortitude

Merchant – Deception, Knowledge: Any 1, Investigate, Manipulation, Will

Mystic – Mystic Proficiency, Insight, Knowledge: Any 1, Manipulate, Will

Navigator – Perception, Pilot, Stealth, Survival, Dodge

Nomad – Animal Handling, Pilot, Survival, Treatment, Will

Scholar – Mystic Proficiency, Knowledge: Any 3 (no two of which can be the same), Will

Slave – Hit Points, Escape Artist, Fortitude, Dodge, Will

Squire – Martial Proficiency, Manipulate, Pilot, Fortitude, Will

Warrior – Hit Points, Martial Proficiency, Accuracy, Fortitude, Dodge

Zealot – Hit Points, Mystic Proficiency, Insight, Knowledge: Divine, Will

NP
 
OK, with the dark elves it shoulds like its implied that the Dark Elf has to be using the ability in question to store the roll? (i.e. no climbing 20 times in order to store a 20 to use on an attack roll...?)
 
Professions - if this is simply a list of additional skills and there are no other major effects, the same effect might be handled more simply by saying "pick five skills to reflect your character's pre-adventuring profession". As number of professions defined in the system increase the state of it approaches that.
 
I'm unsure if class skills exist, but if so that would prevent complications due to overlaps in class and profession skill lists as well (i.e. I could imagine a problem like Hunter/Ranger being suboptimal due to the same skills being gotten for free twice).

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;570363NP
 
OK, with the dark elves it shoulds like its implied that the Dark Elf has to be using the ability in question to store the roll? (i.e. no climbing 20 times in order to store a 20 to use on an attack roll...?)
 
Professions - if this is simply a list of additional skills and there are no other major effects, the same effect might be handled more simply by saying "pick five skills to reflect your character's pre-adventuring profession". As number of professions defined in the system increase the state of it approaches that.
 
I'm unsure if class skills exist, but if so that would prevent complications due to overlaps in class and profession skill lists as well (i.e. I could imagine a problem like Hunter/Ranger being suboptimal due to the same skills being gotten for free twice).

It is implied that Dark Elves are OCD perfectionists and can be found doing some mundane thing until they get it "just right". In character people (other than people who know about dark elves) shouldn't know why they do those kind of things. It's supposed to be seen as a wierd quirk by most people. Dark Elves themselves only have an inkling of why they do it but it becomes a ritual for them. They pick some mundane activity and do it every morning or whenever they can after a good night's sleep (or whenever they can get a good sleep). Such a thing, in setting wise, is just something they do. It pretty much gives them a sharp edge in competitions (if they compete in any) or one off encounters.
Mehanics wise it is implied that a Dark Elf "will" surprise you at least once during combat or competition so when people who know about their ability at all hear that they are facing a dark elf then they will legitimately be put on edge (just as planned).

On professions: I should explain skills a bit further before going on. "Skill Points" buy "Skill Ranks" but not in the traditional 3rd edition sense. I think I mentioned it earlier but Skill Bounuses act like Base Attack Bonuses in that there are multiple bonus tracks. All skills except Hit Points, Martial, and Mystical Proficiency follow the bonuses given on the tracks.

There are 4 ranks to all skills: Untrained, Trained, Expert, Master. By default you're considered "Untrained" in anything you don't have a skill point in. You can basically spend up to 3 skill points raising your rank in something. You get 3 Skills from race, 5 Skills from Profession, 10 Skills from Class and 2 Skill Points just for being 1st Level. From there you get a single Skill Point every even level.

Now the reason I have 5 skills locked in a profesion is to reduce power gaming and force people to spread points around a bit even to stuff they possibly don't need. If a player really wants to invest in something they can just choose to have a certain profession and race and use the 2 free points on anything they want. There "may" be something else to profession, and I'm certainly open to doing something with it, but I haven't really thought of anything to give them "yet". Perhaps in te future but for now they are bundles of skill points that serve as a call to the past profession skill, flesh out the character's background a bit, and force feeds the player a skill spread.

Sorry yes, you did explain the skill tracks earlier.
 
Well the professions move min/maxing up from "pick the best skills" to "pick the best profession". I think working harder to balance the skill list would probably be a better option.
You could for instance give skills a variable cost depending on how good they are (e.g. 5 points for a rank of Craft, 20 points to buy a rank of Dodge), roll the more powerful skills into class features, roll together some of the less powerful skills or subdivide the more powerful ones, limit some of the game effects of them to instead require 'skill tricks' or feats, or give out a point of the more powerful skills for free (Dodge, Fortitude?) so that an additional skill point spent provides less direct return in terms of bonuses (depending on how the ranks are set up).

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;570588Sorry yes, you did explain the skill tracks earlier.
 
Well the professions move min/maxing up from "pick the best skills" to "pick the best profession". I think working harder to balance the skill list would probably be a better option.
You could for instance give skills a variable cost depending on how good they are (e.g. 5 points for a rank of Craft, 20 points to buy a rank of Dodge), roll the more powerful skills into class features, roll together some of the less powerful skills or subdivide the more powerful ones, limit some of the game effects of them to instead require 'skill tricks' or feats, or give out a point of the more powerful skills for free (Dodge, Fortitude?) so that an additional skill point spent provides less direct return in terms of bonuses (depending on how the ranks are set up).

I'm fine with people picking "the best profession" if they wanna min max. This is a system where you're 3 skill points away from the max in "stuff" and at least it "forces" the min maxxers inherent in gaming into having a background while people who are interested in story have mechanical stuff that has a long lasting effect on their characters. Plus with the ease that I tried to put into skill selection, going back to fiddling around with points would be a step back from this much more streamlined process.

Balancing the skills like wise is a big priority for me. Like really fucking big thus the enforced dependency on usin skills to power spells, use various class skills, etc. Here's the list of skills:

Hit Points (yes this is a skill and the only one modified by Resilience/Constitution

Martial Proficiency - Determines weapon, armor, shield, proficiencies. Controls access to combat, armor, shield, weapon style, and similar feats/talents. Also controls proficiency with combat maneuvers and ability to access magic weapons, armor, and shields.

Mystic Proficiency - Controls access to spells, metamaic feats/talents, rites, and rituals.

Accuracy - Your base to hit bonus.

Fortitude - Defense

Dode - Defense

Will - Defense

Acrobatics - Your flippin' around

Animal Handling - Your ability to control and socialize with animals. Can be expanded ino vermin, oozes, etc.

Balance - Ability to stay on your toes

Climb - scaling, swinging, jumping on thing's backs.

Craft (5) Reduced number of total craft skills to 5. Made them more general to cover large areas with an option inside to focus on one thing. Allows you to be more effective aainst constructs, vehicles, etc

Deception - Where bluff used to be. Has an option for disguise with a skill focus feat. Automatically given to shifters. Otherwise covers most kinds of trickery.

Escape Artist - For when you need to escape in a hurry. Also covers squeezing into stuff and teleportation abilities.

Fly - Like swim and climb its a movement based skill. You mess it up you fall. You can get it and not be able to fly but that's pretty useless. Its iven away most of the time to things that are guaranteed wings.

Insight - Your sense motive, your intuition, various forms of inductive reasoning.

Intimidate - All fear affects are controlled by intimidate from mystical to mundane.

Investiate - Your ability to gather information, clues, and various forms of deductive reasoning.

Jump - your ability to hop. It ets better and more similar to flight the more times you concentrate on it. No jump ceiling so it scales with time.

Knowledge (5) - Also reduced to cover wider swathes of info. Most of the time its stuff you know, allows you to predict enemy movements, know tactics, usual rituals, know weaknesses. Its also required for a number of spells and magic item crafting/recognition. Bein smart in this case maks you more inclined to know magic/technology of course.

Legerdemain - Your theivery, your stealing, slieght of hand, etc etc. This skill is about the only thing that may allow you to create/use interdimensional spaces at the high end.

Linguistics - Know your lanuages, decipher scripts, analyzes ancient texts, use your rune, siil, and other lanuage dependent abilities.

Manipulate - This is the Diplomacy skilll. Its the thing that allows you to turn the hearts of kings and swoon the ladies.Most mind control thins depend on this skill.

Perception - All your senses boiled into one. 'nuff said. most detection and scrying abilities depend on this skill.

Pilot - Would be ride but I'm aiming for a techie (steampunk) setting plus it allows people to specialize where they want. Navigating will be split between this and Survival.

Stealth - You know the drill. You got your hide and move silently inside alon with your ability to try to hide from enhanced senses.

Survival - This is your survival, trapping, forain skill. It also allows you to hide in the wilderness and is THE skill you use to counter superior senses like Scent and Echolocation if you get the right talents.

Swim - Like fly you sink or you swim. Thins that are predisposed to swimmin et a leg up. those who are really ood at swimming can resist colder or hotter temperatures and hold their breath really well. They also tend to have more endurance.

Treatment - This is your healing skill in a nutshell. Does your limb replacement and reviving at the higher end.

A number of skills of course didn't make it.

Professions are now actual proffessions.

Appraise, gather info, knowledge local, search, and reconizing foreries are all in Investiate. Concentration is just makin a skill check.

Decipher script, speak languages, and using certain magic devices, are folded into Linguistics.

Disguise got consumed alon with bludd in Deception.

Forgery is in craft and legerdemain.

Open lock is also within craft (the one you would use for locks) and legerdemain.

Perform ot split into pieces and depending on the performance type is in acrobatics (dance), Craft (visual art), Deception (acting, Comedy), Legerdemain (cause I didn't know where else to put instrument playing), and Manipulate (oratory).

Use Magic Device is split into Linguistics and Knowledges.

Use Rope is in Survival.

So here's some small notes on Classes. As it is there are no Prestige Classes and no rules for cross classing, Instead classes just have various class abilities that they choose throughout their career to sharpen their focus or not. Class abilities are all thematic and focus on a certain theme. Typically the themes are the only thing that is protected between classes as a number of mechanically similar abilities can and do appear on multiple ability lists.

Each class has 3 archetypes that characters may choose to follow in order to streamline the character generation process. Classes give Primary Abilities that are given at every odd level. I may also write up a bunch of sub abilities that come online every even level but whether I stick to it or not is up in the air for now. There are no plans to make class feats currently. More notes later.

Doing Classes only to level 5 for now. I am going to design the ground floor of the game first and develop the rest later. Time constraints and other distractions are slowing the progress. Here's what I have for now - tables because I'm lazy and making tables on forums is tedious.

Classes – There are twelve base  Classes in Mana Sphere each with their own unique theme and ability sets. Character Classes may only be gained by Hero and Legend Tier Characters. Each Class has ten Skills and a Mana Generation Method. While all Living Characters can generate Mana Character Classes allow a Character to generate Mana more rapidly under the right circumstances giving them the edge over lower Tier Characters. Classes  also give a Character defining Primary and Sub Abilities. Classes are generally split up into 3 major groups for ease of understanding.
Fighters – These are the Classes that work best when in the middle of the action. They get many skills and abilities related directly to direct confrontation and have Mana generation methods the depend on dealing or receiving Damage.
Champion – Representative fighter of a greater cause. They are an oath bound type of warrior who uses their abilities to mitigate Damage on the battlefield. When not fighting they often serve as bodyguards, emissaries, or heralds, often working to spread the ideology of what they represent or working towards some given goal.
Martial Artists – These fighters hone their skill in battle seeking to perfect their body and minds. They are adept at dealing Damage directly to the enemy, often overcoming any barriers that would prevent them from doing so. When away from the battlefield they are often hermits or even guards. Some elect to teach or lead others.
Savage – These are often brutal men and women who elect to let their emotions run wild, often boosting their physical capabilities while doing so. They enjoy raining blows down upon foes. When not in combat they make excellent hunters and are generally very intimidating.
Soldier – These fighters are born for the battlefield and exist as highly mobile troopers. They are often adept at breaking the enemy and disrupting tactics. Though mostly used for their prowess in battle when not engaged they are typically guards, generals, and statesmen bringing their calm and collected experience on the battlefield to other public services.

Specialists – Specialists tend to be focused more on skills than direct combat prowess. Often times Specialists will use their primary skills in order to solve various problems in ways no other Class can.
Performer – These specialists have perfected their various forms of entertainment well beyond that of ordinary people. These virtuosos have discovered the magic behind their art and use it to climb the social ladder or bring it to bare when confronted with violence.
Ranger – These specialists are adept hunters and frontiersmen. They often brave dangers few others would face and endeavor to explore, hunt, or even just survive in the face of the many mystical and mundane environmental dangers.
Scoundrel – These specialists are masters of stealth and deception. They use their “unique” skill set to confuse and confound enemies often times profiting off of the downfall of others. Though a Scoundrel evokes feelings of distrust, few would not want such a skillful person on their side.
Tactician – These specialists are masters of gathering, analyzing, and utilizing information. It is tough to say whether or not a good Tactician is ever caught off guard by anything. They are ever mindful of the possibilities, take care to shore up their weaknesses, and often find ways to maximize their chances of victory.

Mystics – Mystics tend to have a wealth of unique powers. They are more aimed towards drawing success through artful and imaginative use of whatever ability sets they acquire.
Druid – These mystics are masters of nature. They are able to draw forth raw power from the ether and bend the environment to their will. They often times are found protecting and honoring nature in all its many forms, using their unique abilities to do so.
Invoker – These mystics are servants of a higher power. They put their souls on the line in exchange to further their ideology. Few can claim the loyalty and dedication of an Invoker  and fewer can show off the benefits for such dedication. An Invoker is the herald, speaker, the eyes, ears, and hands of their patron.
Mage – These mystics are masters of Magic. They study and twist the spells they learn in ways o other class can match. Few can claim to have the skill to wield magic but very few can claim to be masters of it. Mages are the go to experts on all mysteries of the arcane.
Warlock – These mystics wield the very essence of magic. They are the only ones who can take the raw essence of what is magic and utilize it in unique ways. Where the Mages master formulas, Druids praise the wilderness, and Invokers act as servants to their patron a Warlock rips magic from the very environment.

Champion – Champions are leaders, protectors, daring men and women who thrust themselves into danger in the name of others. Champions are loyal, disciplined, fighters that represent something greater than themselves
Class Skills:
Hit Points
Martial Proficiency
Intimidate
Knowledge: Any 1
Linguistics
Manipulate
Pilot
Fortitude
Dodge
Will
Mana Generation Method – Champions gain Mana when Damaged. They gain 1 point of Mana per point of HP Damage. The Mana generated in this fashion does not restore the Champion’s regular Mana stores, it instead is used to fill a secondary Mana Pool called Resolve. This Mana Pool must be created as a Slight Action and functions like any other Mana Pool except it is dismissed whenever the Champion is fully healed or 1 round (6 seconds) after ending combat (as determined by the GM) at which point the Mana is placed into the Champion's regular Mana stores.  The Mana Pool's Maximum Mana allotment is equal to half the Champion’s Level (rounded up).


Archetypes:
Challenger – Challengers are Champions who care about glory. They are dedicated to finding challenges and overcoming them. When traveling with others these daring souls insist on forcing one on one fights, gaining a number of abilities that make such direct challenges hard to ignore.

Primary Abilities:
1sr Level:
Harrier [Aim, Off-Guard, On-Hit] – You may take Aim by utilizing a Slight Action  as an On-Hit effect. Targets you are Aiming at receive a Mundane Penalty equal to your Level when not directly Targeting you or a space that you occupy.

3rd Level:
Challenge [Sub Action, Close Range, Fear/Mind Affect, Maintenance] – When this Ability is gained you must choose whether to use your Intimidate [Fear] or Manipulate [Mind] Bonus as the  Relevant Skill Bonus for the Ability. Once this choice is made it may not be changed later. You may, as a Sub Action designate a Target in Close Range that can see and hear you. You may then make a Check using the Relevant Skill Bonus Opposed by the Target's Will. If you succeed that Target must either accept your challenge and exclusively Target you as if their goal is to defeat you or receive Fear or Stress Damage equal to half your Level rounded up. If a third party Damages the Target the effect ends.

5th Level:
Isolate [On-hit, Mana] – By expending a Slight Action and Mana you may attempt to make a Push Attempt against all Targets surrounding your Attack Target. Your Push Attempt Bonus is equal to twice the Mana you used on this Ability + your Personality Bonus.

Sub Abilities:
2nd Level:
Designate – You may take Aim at a Target as a Slight Action on your turn. Abilities that would have you lose your Aim are negated unless there is an Opposed Roll involved. If there is you gain a Situational Bonus to the roll equal to half your Level (rounded down).

Crusader – Crusaders are Champions  that insist on bearing the burdens of others. They thoughtlessly put themselves in harm's way and triumph through personal sacrifice. A Crusader is adept at reducing incoming Damage. They are valued traveling companions as they are adept at mitigating hazards from the group.

Primary Ability

1st Level:
Superior Guard [Counter, Mana] – When you would be Damaged you may increase your Damage Reduction by 2 per point of Mana you spend.

3rd Level:
Bodyguard [Counter, Reach] – When an Ally is Targeted you may move into that Ally's space and become the Target of that Target's Attack or Ability.

5th Level:
Unmovable [Counter, Mana] – When you would be a victim of Forced Movement you may expend Mana to reduce the number of Squares you would be moved by 2 per point of Mana spent (minimum 0 movement). You may alternatively utilize Mana when you are making an Opposed Roll to defend against a Combat Maneuver giving yourself a Mundane Bonus on the Roll equal to twice the Mana you spend.

Sub Ability
2nd Level:
Defend – You may apply your Damage Reduction to an Ally in reach whenever they make an Active Defense while adjacent to you.

Oath Bearer – Oath Bearers are Champions who have mastered the power of the Oath. Oath Beearers are able to mystically dedicate themselves, their surroundings, and equipment to their cause. Their abilities are effective at controlling the flow of combat putting everything in its proper place.

Primary Abilities

1st Level:
Bound Equipment [Ritual, Word, Ward] – You may place a number of Wards on a number of pieces of equipment equal to your max number of Wards. These Wards  do not count towards your max Ward Limit. The Ritual is shown below.

Oath Bound Item
Ritual Level: 1
Casting Time: 1 Hour
Skill: Linguistics
DC: 15
XP Cost: 0
Materials: Special inks costing at least 10 Units and the Target item.
Duration: Indefinite
Effect: You may bind a Target item to yourself by marking it with a special Symbol specific to you. This symbol must be prominently displayed upon the item to get this Ritual's effect and cannot be placed on any part that would be hidden or hard to see. The item you bind to yourself must have been in your possession for at least one week. You must be able to hold the item and it cannot exceed your Light Encumbrance. Once the item is bound to you it gains special properties. The bound item is considered a Ward. The item becomes heavier for others. To other people attempting to lift it without your permission it weighs a function of it's original weight times your Level. You may also “call” the item to you as a Slight Action  at any time. The item will then appear on your person being worn (if you can wear it), wielded (if your hands are open), or upon the ground in your square as long as you are on the same plane that you stowed it in. If you have multiple Warded items you may “switch” them out in this fashion. For example if you have two pieces of bound armor and you are wearing one they “switch” upon command placing the one you're wearing where the other armor was stowed.
Special Notes: This is a Class Ritual and may not be picked up by any other Class.

3rd Level:
Bound Souls [Ritual, Word, Ward] – You may place a number of Wards on a number of Allies through a special Ritual. You may place a number of these Wards equal to the max number of Wards you can place. These Wards do not count towards your total Ward Limit.  The Ritual is detailed below.

Oath Binding
Ritual Level: 2
Casting Time: 1Hour
Skill: Linguistics
DC: 15
XP Cost: 0
Materials: Specialist inks costing at least 10 Units and willing Targets
Duration: 1 Week
Effect: You place a special mark on a number of Willing Targets. While marked in this way you may swap the position of the specially marked Targets as a Sub Action as long as the Targets you're swapping both are in your presence and at least within Medium Range. The Targets only bring themselves and up to their Max Load when being swapped in this fashion. They may attempt to resist this swapping at any time with a successful Will Save. If this Will Save is successful or the attempt is otherwise thwarted the marks on both Targets are dismissed. Use of these Marks is considered a [Warp] Supernatural Ability.
Special Note – If you have other Oath Rituals you can use them on your allies. Example: If you have Oath Bound Item you may summon bound items to Allies.

5th Level:
Rune Warrior [Class Feat] – Gain a [Word] Spell.

Sub Abilities

2nd Level:
Warden – You may double you maximum Ward Limit.

Martial Artist – Martial Artists are highly trained weapon savvy combatants who use their knowledge and skill of combat to complete any task set before them.
Class Skills:
HP
Martial Proficiency
Accuracy
Acrobatics
Balance
Climb
Jump
Perception
Fortitude
Dodge
Mana Generation Method – A Martial Artist gains  Mana  through practicing their art. Because of this a Martial Artist performs best in battle gaining Mana at a rate of 1 point per 2 points of Damage they deal. With this a Martial Artist may generate more Mana than they may normally store. They may retain this Mana, losing it at a rate of 1 point per minute until they are back at or under their max, but they do not generate more while over their max. They also do not generate this Mana whenever they are using it so any Mana Based Ability they use that deals Damage does not generate Mana. Mana is only generated when the Martial Artist deals the Damage. Use of secondary items beyond a Melee or Ranged Weapon (doesn't include Splash/Grenade Weapons, poisons, etc) or continuous Damage do not add to the pool. If striking multiple enemies at once you only gain Mana for the highest amount Damage you struck for.

Archetypes
Chi Master – Chi Masters are mysterious and mystical Martial Artists who have mastered themselves and their inner Mana to produce various supernatural effects. Chi Masters are able to use their powers to produce effects that allow them to fight more effectively.

Primary Abilities
1st Level
Abundant Soul [Mana, Touch] – You may heal yourself by channeling your spirit turning your inner power into vigor. You may, as a Sub Action restore 3 + twice the Mana used HP of the Target you touch.

3rd Level
Chi Strike [Passive] – Your Weapon Attacks may deal Physical or Magic Damage at your choosing. You must decide which your Attack deals before you Attack. If your Attack would deal Magic Damage you must use your Personality Bonus instead of your regular Attribute Bonus to determine the Damage dealt. Additionally, if you have an Attack Spell (Basic Spells: Cold, Heat, Electricity) you may cast it as part of your Attack and you may turn it into a Maintenance Ability  instead of a Channel Ability.  The latter effect only applies as long as you have more Mana than your maximum.

5th Level
Chi Weaponry [Passive] – You may make Melee Attacks at Close Range, make multiple Thrown Weapon Attacks in a single Round, or may generate chi based Ammo for Ranged Weapons. When doing so the Weapon Damage you deal is always Magic Damage and use your Personality Bonus to modify Damage when applicable.

Sub Abilities
2nd Level
Solid Soul – Gain Resistance to Mana Burn, Disruption, and Drain equal to half your Level (Rounded Down)

Weapon Master – Weapon masters are Marital Artists who've found power in versatility. They have become master of many weapons instead of one. They have found a way to harness this versatility to become credible threats no matter what they can get their hands on.

Primary Abilities
1st Level
Weapon Master [Passive] – You gain Proficiency with all Simple, Martial, and Superior Weapons. Whenever your Martial Proficiency rises or if it already is above one you may gain Proficiency with all Exotic Weapons of a selected Weapon Category.

3rd Level
Weapon Toolbox [Passive] – You may add Grab, Thrown, and Trip properties to any weapon you're using. You may also use your Ranged Weapon as an Improvised Weapon in melee.

5th Level
Unique Style [Passive] – You may create a unique fighting style with a unique set of weapon, using unique limbs (teeth, tail, etc), using over sized weapons, etc. You must discuss the specifics with your GM. Alternatively you may gain a Combat, Shield, or Weapon Style Feat.

Sub Abilities
2nd Level
Improvised Weapon Mastery – You may utilize Improvised Weapons as well as regular weapons (gaining all the special weapon qualities and qualifying for the purposes of using various abilities).

Weapon Specialist – Weapon Specialists are Martial Artists who devote themselves to more than mastering a specific weapon. Where a Weapon Master focuses on mastering just the use of various weapons a Weapon Specialist seeks to turn a single weapon into something more.

Primary Abilities
1st Level
Weapon Specialization [Passive] – You must select a Weapon Category. That Weapon Category becomes your Weapon Specialty. You then gain Proficiency with Simple, Martial, and Superior Weapons in that Category. Lastly, you may use a larger Weapon Damage Die with that Weapon.

3rd Level
Exotic Style [Passive] – You may use an alternate Attribute, other than Agility and Awareness, to determine the Attribute Bonus for Accuracy and Dodge. Alternatively you may use an alternate Attribute to determine your Fortitude or Will Defense.

5th Level
Bound Weapon [Class Ritual] – Gain an extra Magic Item Slot. Additionally you gain the Weapon Binding Ritual. The details of the Ritual are listed below.

Weapon Binding
Ritual Level: 3
Casting Time: 1Hour
Skill: None
DC: None
XP Cost: 0
Materials: Target Weapon
Duration: Permanent
Effect: You may bind a specific weapon to your very being, making it an extension of yourself. You may only bind a single weapon to yourself in this fashion. If this Ritual is used on another weapon the last weapon you bound loses all the effects of this Ritual. While bound to you the weapon may never Damage you. Any attempt to do so makes the weapon go through you as if you or it were Incorporeal. Additionally you may imbue the weapon with a single Spell of your choice. You must know about the Spell or be able to describe the effect. You must be able to cast the Spell at the Level you attempt to imbue it at.

Sub Abilities
2nd Level
Soul Weapon – While wielding weapons that fit into your Weapon Specialty they become more resistant to Damage gaining additional Hardness equal to half your Level (rounded down). Additionally, they are immune to drastic disastrous effects like rusting and every day wear and tear.

Last two of the fighters.
____________________________________________-
Savage – Savages are barbarous fighters who, in one way or another, revel in conflict. Savages may be possessed by a spirit of fury, get lost in the visceral nature of combat, or any number of things that make them better suited for combat.

Class Skills:
HP
Martial Proficiency
Animal Handling
Climb
Intimidate
Jump
Perception
Survival
Fortitude
Dodge
Mana Generation Method – The Savage enjoys combat. Both civil and brutal Savages get a certain thrill when thrust into combat. Because of this they are able to do their best when on edge. Whenever a Savage is Damaged they gain Mana equal to one point for every 2 points of Damage they incur. Savages still have the regular limit of how much Mana they can retain. When pushed beyond that maximum Savages enter a form of Rage.

Special Note: Rage – A Savage may gain a Level of Rage equal to half their Level rounded up as a Slight Action  on their turn. At first Level a Savage has to choose a type of Rage to benefit from. They may only benefit from a single kind of Rage at a given time (even if they gain multiple ones) and must be selected when they fly into it. A Savage must fly into Rage as soon as their Mana peaks. This is a forced Slight Action that occurs as soon as the Savage can possibly pull it off. They may attempt to contain this Rage by making a Will Save equal to 10 + the Level of Rage they would've entered.
A Savage may end their Rage as a Slight Action. Ending a Rage does not take a Will Save. Whenever Rage is ended, or prevented, the Savage loses any Mana they are retaining above their maximum. When a Rage that lasts at least 1 round is ended the Savage takes Fatigue Damage equal to the number of rounds they were Raging. This Damage cannot mitigated in any fashion.    

Archetypes
Berserker – Berserkers are crazed Savages who channel their love of battle into destructive power. They are adept at not only over powering their opponents with the sheer amount of raw muscle power they can muster but our adept at putting their foes off balance through the frightful fashion in which they fight.
Primary Abilities
1st Level
Berserk [Rage] – Berserkers are adept at calling upon their inner fury to bring forth incredible physical powers. When Raging a Berserker may go Berserk. For each Level of Rage you achieve you gain a +2 Mundane Bonus to Power Score. While Berserk you receive a -2 Penalty to Dodge per Level of Rage.

3rd Level
Mighty Swing [Attack, Mana] – Berserkers are able to squeeze their souls to do more damage pushing themselves past even the mightiest warriors. When you Attack you may opt to spend Mana to hit harder at the cost of your accuracy. For every point of Mana  you spend you increase the Damage you deal on a hit by 2 but lower your Accuracy by 1.

5th Level
Insurmountable [Sub, Morph] – While in Rage you may gain may Temporary HP by channeling your SHP. This Temporary HP only lasts for as long as you stay in Rage and is lost when your Rage ends. You may channel up to your Level in Temporary HP.

Sub Abilities
2nd Level
Intimidating Presence – When someone would take Fear Damage you may use your Mana as a non Action to increase the Fear Damage they take by an equal amount.

Tempest
Primary Abilities
1st Level
Frenzy [Rage] – Tempests are adept at calling upon their inner storm to turn themselves into a dangerous whirling tempest. When Raging a Tempest may go into a Frenzy. For each Level of Rage you achieve you gain a +2 Mundane Bonus to Agility Score. While in Frenzy you receive a -2 Penalty to Dodge per Level of Rage.

3rd Level
Tempest's Swing [Attack, Mana, Area, Channel, Augment] – Tempests are able to enter spins that allow them to whip up The wind around them. When you Attack whether you miss or hit you may utilize Mana and whip or a stirring wind that gives you some cover and disrupts incoming Attacks. When used this ability covers all squares in your Natural Reach +1 square per point of Mana spent. Perception Checks, Ranged Attacks, Area Attacks made on Targets within the area suffer a -2 Penalty for each point of Mana spent. While this Ability is active you cannot move from your current Square. If you are forced to move or are Damaged you must make a Concentration Check using just your Agility Score against a DC equal to 10 + 1 for each Square you moved or each point of Damage you took. If you are Teleported or somehow otherwise instantly removed from the place you were at the Ability ends immediately.

5th Level
Vacuum Swing [Attack, Mana, Area, Channel, Augment] – Tempests may draw in Targets with a great swing and a rapid spin. When this Ability is used all Targets in your Reach + a number of Squares equal to the Mana you use. All Targets in the area of this Ability are treated to a Pull Attempt. Targets that are Pulled to you because of this Ability are knocked Prone. While this Ability is active you cannot move from your current Square. If you are forced to move or are Damaged you must make a Concentration Check using just your Agility Score against a DC equal to 10 + 1 for each Square you moved or each point of Damage you took. If you are Teleported or somehow otherwise instantly removed from the place you were at the Ability ends immediately.

Sub Abilities
2nd Level
Fast Movement – Your Move Speed increases by a number of Squares equal to half your Level.

Juggernaut
Primary Abilities
1st Level
Grit [Rage] – Juggernauts are truly unstoppable combatants, able to shrug off blows that would stop others in their tracks. When Raging a Juggernaut may gain Grit. For each Level of Rage you achieve you gain a +2 Mundane Bonus to Resilience Score and Temporary HP equal to their Level. While in Frenzy you receive a -2 Penalty to Dodge per Level of Rage.

3rd Level
Juggernaut [Passive] – Attacks that hit and Damage but don't overcome Damage Reduction are considered a Miss.

5th Level
Stubborn [Passive] – Your Physical Damage Reduction can be used for your Magic Damage Reduction whenever you make an Active Defense.

Sub Abilities
2nd Level
Ram – You may add your Resilience Bonus to Damage on any Action that involves a Charge.



Soldier
Class Skills:
Hit Points
Martial Proficiency
Accuracy
Acrobatics
Climb
Intimidate
Jump
Pilot
Fortitude
Dodge
Mana Generation Method – Soldiers are at their best when they are assaulting their enemies in some fashion. Soldiers attain power through successful maneuvering and success in conflict. Soldiers can rapidly generate Mana by competing with the opposition. Any time a Soldier makes an Opposed Check whenever a Soldier rolls over any Target Number that the Target has they gain Mana equal to the difference. Soldiers may retain an amount of Mana equal to their Level.

Archetypes
Commando
Primary Ability
1st Level
Lock Down [On Hit] – When you hit the Target you may make an Opposed Fortitude Check. If you succeed your Target may not move out of your Natural Reach until after your next Initiative Action. They are not Immobilized or Off – Guard they just may not choose to move out of your Natural Reach.

3rd Level
Distracting Maneuver [On Hit] – When you hit the Target you may make an Opposed Dodge Roll. If you succeed you may choose another Target in Close Range that you can see and hear. You make the chosen Target Hidden against your Target. This lasts until the end Hidden Target's turn. The Hidden Target is considered to have a Stealth Check Result equal to the Dodge Roll Result.

5th Level
Threatening Strike [On Hit, Fear] – When you  hit the Target you may make an Intimidate Roll opposed by the Target's Will. If you succeed the Target must spend their next turn Targeting you with any Active Action they make.

Sub Ability
2nd Level
Difficult Defense – All the Squares in your Reach are considered Difficult Terrain for Enemies.

Interceptor
Primary Ability
1st Level
Unforgiving [Passive] – Whenever you make a Successful Opportunity Attack you force the Target to Cancel their Action.

3rd Level
Capitalize [Passive] – You gain a +4 Mundane Bonus to Rolls made when Provoked.

5th Level
Intervention [Passive] – You gain a +4 Mundane Bonus to Rolls made when Countering or being Countered.

Sub Ability
2nd Level
Aggression – You may ignore Abilities that would allow any Target to avoid Provoking in situations where they would normally Provoke.

Skirmisher
Primary Ability
1st Level
Opportunity Step [Passive] – When you are Provoked you may make a Move Action.

3rd Level
Opportunity Dash [Passive] – Your Threatened Area increases by half your Move Speed. If you are Provoked in the extended area you may make an Opportunity Charge Attack.

5th Level
Mobility [Passive] – You may perform other Standard Actions during your Move Action. You may split your Move Actions up between your other Actions. For example you may move partially then perform a Slight Action then move again before performing an Active Action. You may only move as far as you regularly could. You may not use Charge Actions with this kind of movement.

Sub Ability
2nd Level
Fast Movement – Your Base Move Speed increases by an amount equal to 1 Square per half your Level rounded Down.

So with my mom out of the hospital and in physical therapy work has resumed on the project. I'm going to take an aside from listing classes to listing some info that might be important to know.

Hit Points – HP, also known as Hit Points, represent a Character's ability to avoid serious injury. As long as a Character has HP they avoid receiving Injuries when taking Damage. Hit Points are purposefully abstract and may be used to portray any number of things whether you wish it to represent a Character's skill, luck, Mana density, or something similar. The higher a Character's Level the more HP they are likely to retain.

Stock Hit Points – SHP, also known as Stock Hit Points, represent a Character's ability process unnatural healing. Each time a Character heals via a Spell or Ability that rapidly recovers Hit Points, Attribute Damage, Mana, etc that Character's SHP is reduced. Depending on what is restored more or less SHP is used. The "exchange" rates depend on what is being restored and is listed in the table below.

Wounds – A Character who is Damaged when at 0 HP receive Wounds. When Damaged a in that condition the Character takes Resilience or Structure Damage equal to the Damage they took. The Damage to Resilience/Structure Scores from Wounds is not temporary and Natural Healing doesn't allow recovery from the Damage from Wounds.

Natural Healing – By default all Living Characters heal naturally over time. Recovering from injuries, poisons, and other debilitations naturally does not require SHP. Additionally Natural Healing is the only way most Characters recover SHP. Natural Healing occurs constantly over time as long as the Character is alive. Natural Healing Rates and time frames are listed in the table below.

Short Rest – A Short Rest is taken when a Character spends at least 10 minutes resting easily. The current environmental conditions must be at least somewhat peaceful (as determined by the GM) in a way that would allow you to take a Rest at all.  A Character may perform Actions up to Easy tasks with no problems while taking a Short Rest. During this Rest the Character may recover Hit Points at a rate of 1 per minute of the Short Rest. You may take multiple Short Rests back to back but each is considered to be taken in 1 minute increments. You may gain all the benefits of a Short Rest while you're taking a Full Rest.

Full Rest – A Full Rest is taken when a Character winds down and takes a long rest. The rest must be peaceful enough that the character could reasonably fall asleep (determined by the GM) though they don't necessarily have to. Generally, this is taken with Sleep, meditation, and similarly restful Actions spanning over a 6 hour period. You do not receive the benefits of a Full Rest unless you've take about an entire one. It may be interrupted for up to an hour but must not be interrupted for any longer, otherwise it is considered only a Short Rest. After taking a Full Rest for the indicated time you receive no further benefits from it for 18 Hours even if the Character rests continually for that amount of time or attempts to take another Full Rest during that time they only receive the benefits once until the 18 Hour time frame is up AND another 6 hour Full Rest is taken.

Asleep – While under this condition you are considered to be Helpless. You mostly don't perceive the world around you and your Perception Based Checks automatically fail with the exception of your Audio Perception Checks which you merely take a -10 Penalty to. Being significantly disturbed while under this condition will end it prematurely. If undisturbed a Character will stay sleeping for about 4 – 8 hours (roll a d4 if it becomes important).
Most Living Creatures require regular Sleep every day. Each time a Character goes a day (24 hour period) without Sleep they must make an Endurance Check equal to 10 + the number of Days you've gone without Sleeping. If you fail this Check you automatically receive a full Grade of Fatigue.

Status Conditions
Condition Damage – A number of Conditions are tied to a particular kind of Damage that builds up over time. These are called Ailments. Whenever Condition Damage is taken the victim must make a Fortitude or Will Save, depending on whether it is a Physical or Mental Ailment respectively, against a DC of 10 + the current total of the Ailment's Damage. If you Fail then you advance a Grade of that Ailment. If you fail by 10 or more you advance additional Grades or every 10 that you miss the Save by.

Physical Ailments – Physical Ailments are physically debilitating Conditions. They can usually be seen physically effecting and debilitating the victim in some fashion. Generally Physical Ailments are resisted via Fortitude.

Fatigue – Fatigue Damage builds until the Target becomes Exhausted. For each Grade of Fatigue a Target currently retains they receive a -2 Ailment Penalty on all Checks and receive a Temporary -2 Resilience Score Penalty. If the Target's Resilience Score is Reduced to 0 because of Fatigue it does not die but becomes Exhausted.

Pain – Pain Damage builds until the Target becomes Agonized. For each Grade of Pain the Target retains they receive a -2 Penalty to Concentration, Dodge, and a Temporary -2 Power Score Penalty. Additionally, there is a cumulative 10% chance per Grade of Pain that the Target currently retains that each time it is Damaged it will then immediately rendered Off – Guard until your next Initiative Action. Lastly if a Target's Power Score is reduced to 0 because of the Penalty the Target is immediately Agonized.

Stun – Stun Damage builds until the Target becomes Paralyzed. For each Grade of Stun the Target retains they receive a -2 Penalty to Accuracy, Dodge, to all Movement Speeds, and a Temporary -2 Agility Score Penalty. If a Target's Agility Score is reduced to 0 because of Stun the Target becomes Paralyzed.

Mental Ailments – Mental Ailments are mentally debilitating Conditions. They usually affect the behavior and decision making of the victim. Generally Mental Ailments are resisted via Will.

Confusion – Confusion Damage builds until the Target is driven Insane. For each Grade of Confusion a Target suffers they receive a -2 Penalty to Concentration, Perception, and a Temporary -2 Awareness Score Penalty. Additionally, all Error Ranges for the Target increase by 2 per Grade of Confusion. Targets that normally do not have or are immune to the effects of Errors are denied that Ability while suffering from Confusion. Lastly, if a Target's Awareness Score is reduced to 0 because of Confusion that Target is rendered Insane.

Fear – Fear Damage builds until the Target becomes Frightened. For each Grade of Fear a Target suffers they receive a -2 Penalty to Accuracy, Will, and a Temporary -2 Personality Score Penalty. Additionally there is a 10% chance per Grade that, when Damaged you will lose all your Standard Actions and flee from the source of Damage as quickly and safely as you can during your current or next turn. Lastly, if a Target's Personality Score is reduced to 0 because of Fear they become Frightened.

Stress – Stress Damage builds until the Target faces Despair. For each Grade of Stress a Target suffers from they receive a -2 Penalty to Fortitude, Perception, and a -2 Temporary Intellect Score Penalty. Additionally when Damaged while suffering from Despair you lose a point of SHP per Grade of Stress you currently suffer from. Lastly, if the Target's Intellect Score is reduced to 0 because of Stress they fall into Despair.

Conditions
Agonized – An Agonized Target is rendered Immobile as it doubles over in Pain. A Target that is Agonized cannot perform any action that involves significant movement or Concentration until the Pain Damage is completely removed. Additionally an Agonized Creature has a 10% chance to be permanently Maimed (rolled when they fall into Agonized Status).

Despair – A Target in Despair is without hope and immediately surrenders to whatever force put them there giving up all actions on each turn until the Stress Damage is removed. Additionally a Target hat has fallen into Despair has a 10% chance of having all their Error Ranges permanently increase by 1.

Exhausted – An Exhausted Target is rendered Unconscious as it is forced to sleep due to Fatigue. A Target that is Exhausted cannot wake up on its own until all of its Fatigue Damage is removed. Until then, if the Target is awoken, the Target continuously suffers from lack of Sleep as if it has missed a number of days of Sleep equal to the current Grade of Fatigue they currently suffer from plus the number of days' worth of sleep they actually missed. Additionally any kind of Rest will result in the Character falling Asleep.

Frightened – A Frightened Target uses all their actions to flee as fast and as far as they can until they reach a place where they believe they are safe. If they cannot find such a place or fleeing would require them to put them into obvious danger the Target instead will cower helplessly. Additionally the Frightened Target has a 10% chance of developing a Phobia of whatever caused their fear in the first place. If the Target already has a related Phobia of it the condition worsens.

Paralysis – A Paralyzed Target is rendered Helpless as they cease to move. A Target that is Paralyzed cannot move their body under their own power until the Stun Damaged is removed. Additionally there is a 10% chance that one of their body parts remains completely Paralyzed even after the Stun Damage is removed. Both the percentage chance and afflicted body part are rolled when the Paralyzed Condition is inflicted.

Insane – A Target suffering from Insanity loses all of its planned actions and spends its time doing one of the things listed below. They perform these actions until the Confusion Damage is removed. Additionally there is a 10% chance that the Target suffers from one of the following disorders (Roll a D8or the GM decides):
Apathy – Gradually loses the ability to express, process, and/or understand emotions

•   Amnesia – Target loses some frame of time in their memory. They may forget they have done, people they knew, abilities they have, etc.

•   Mania – Target becomes obsessed with something/one. The Mania can manifest as attraction, hatred, aversion, or some other automatic response when confronted with or given the opportunity to pursue the object of their Mania.

•   Multiple Personality Disorder – The Target gains an alternative personality that acts completely on its own. The secondary personality is generally triggered or simply "takes over" whenever it can.

•   Paranoia – Target becomes deeply paranoid, usually suspecting everyone and everything as having potential or intent to do harm.

•   Psychosis – Target starts to behave erratically making choices seemingly divorced from their regular modus operandi. This can mean the character becomes extremely emotional acting impulsively or (if already impulsive) having dramatic mood swings. The Target may act in uncommonly generous or malicious ways, etc.  

•   Scarred – The Target becomes unable to see, hear, walk, or perform some specific function because of not because of physical injury but because of a mental one.

•   Schizophrenia – The Target starts to lose their grip on reality being unable to tell what is real and what isn't. They become unable to disbelieve illusions and may, in fact, become harmed if convinced that an illusion is real.

Brief off-topic: I'm glad to hear your mom is out of the hospital. I hope the therapy goes fine for her. Cheers.

Quote from: Benoist;582646Brief off-topic: I'm glad to hear your mom is out of the hospital. I hope the therapy goes fine for her. Cheers.

Agreed, I am hoping for a speedy recovery.

Likewise, glad to hear about your mom getting out of the hospital.

On to your hp stuff: It's a tiny bit complicated honestly.

You've got a hit points / stock hp / fatigue, some healing uses shp and some doesn't, and there are multiple tiered condition tracks (I'm not yet totally clear what pushes you along). It looks like you're working towards something like a morale system with the fear and despair bits being part of normal combat, which I totally approve of, but I'm wondering how this would work in actual play.

What are your design goals with the hp/shp/etc. rules? Could they not still be achieved by tying all healing to shp, letting rests transfer shp to hp, and having shp heal much more slowly?

With multiple condition tracks, there is a potential issue if badguys can only attack one track at a time. Namely, if all the baddies aren't attacking the same track the effects aren't cumulative (making parties more durable vs diverse attack types than against focused ones) and if all the baddies are attacking the same track you almost might as well not have the others. I'd mention condition tracking complaints, but I know this is mostly for you and yours. I figure you know what your group is okay with on that front.

Quote from: beejazz;583337Likewise, glad to hear about your mom getting out of the hospital.

On to your hp stuff: It's a tiny bit complicated honestly.

You've got a hit points / stock hp / fatigue, some healing uses shp and some doesn't, and there are multiple tiered condition tracks (I'm not yet totally clear what pushes you along). It looks like you're working towards something like a morale system with the fear and despair bits being part of normal combat, which I totally approve of, but I'm wondering how this would work in actual play.

What are your design goals with the hp/shp/etc. rules? Could they not still be achieved by tying all healing to shp, letting rests transfer shp to hp, and having shp heal much more slowly?

With multiple condition tracks, there is a potential issue if badguys can only attack one track at a time. Namely, if all the baddies aren't attacking the same track the effects aren't cumulative (making parties more durable vs diverse attack types than against focused ones) and if all the baddies are attacking the same track you almost might as well not have the others. I'd mention condition tracking complaints, but I know this is mostly for you and yours. I figure you know what your group is okay with on that front.

Natural healing doesn't take SHP. That's the healing where you go to sleep/full rest. That's the only kind of healing that doesn't cost you anything but time. Every other kind of healing no matter where it comes from or how you get it costs SHP.

Fatigue/Pain/Stun/Stress/Fear/Confusion are work basically the same way just with different results. Fatigue is the hardest condition to force upon someone because I plan on having very few abilities that affect it. You can essentially compare them to the fear and sickened track from 3rd. Things just get progressively worse.

The tracking will be fiddly, I've no doubt, but in order to get what I want out of it it is a necessary sacrifice.

Team Bad things will probably all gank one track at a time. Having abilities that deal with the damage tracks will be unique, so if enemies have them then their group will probably all try to hit the same one. Right now I have it that you can only push the damage tracks along with certain skills and abilities*. I'm more worried about having reasons for players to not do as you described. I've mulled over perhaps some kind of "no stacking" rules by the turn so that you can only get like one "fear" affect in a single round and I think that would work out.

 *intimidate handles all fear, manipulation handles all stress, deception handles all confusion while pain and stun work with various physical abilities

Lastly to all those who wished my mom luck she says you will be in her prayers.

Quote from: MGuy;583392Team Bad things will probably all gank one track at a time. Having abilities that deal with the damage tracks will be unique, so if enemies have them then their group will probably all try to hit the same one.

Do you tend not to use mixed groups? Just curious with this one. I figure it's somewhere between "never" and "always" and if you're scratch-building foes I can see why you'd keep the number of foe-types down; just surprises me a little if that's right.

QuoteRight now I have it that you can only push the damage tracks along with certain skills and abilities*. I'm more worried about having reasons for players to not do as you described. I've mulled over perhaps some kind of "no stacking" rules by the turn so that you can only get like one "fear" affect in a single round and I think that would work out.

One bump per track per round could work for parties, but will disincentivize enemies ganging up on one track. It'll make mixed groups stronger than single-type groups. All that's fine, especially if it's what you're after.

An unintended effect may include diminishing returns with larger groups. Basically after there are more foes than PCs the difference each foe makes will be smaller. Which again is fine if you typically use small groups of nearer-PC power and less fine (but still not likely a huge problem) if you like those big army-of-mooks fights.

Quote from: beejazz;583420Do you tend not to use mixed groups? Just curious with this one. I figure it's somewhere between "never" and "always" and if you're scratch-building foes I can see why you'd keep the number of foe-types down; just surprises me a little if that's right.


One bump per track per round could work for parties, but will disincentivize enemies ganging up on one track. It'll make mixed groups stronger than single-type groups. All that's fine, especially if it's what you're after.

An unintended effect may include diminishing returns with larger groups. Basically after there are more foes than PCs the difference each foe makes will be smaller. Which again is fine if you typically use small groups of nearer-PC power and less fine (but still not likely a huge problem) if you like those big army-of-mooks fights.

I have quite a few creature types in my game. Currently 13 if memory serves.I meant to say that without the cap it would behoove team bad guy to gather things that cause the same status condition.

With the cap both the boons and consequences you describe are things I'd want to happen.