Much time and wordspace has been spent discussing the issues that people have with the World of Darkness, ranging from its angstiness to elitism, power creep and what-have-you. I'm trying to boil it down to its two most fundamental problems that, if rectified, could POSSIBLY make it significantly more appealing as an RPG.

Vampire came first and the problem came with Vampire and is worst there. I'll say the problem lies with White Wolf's/Rein*Hagen's design intent to make it a game of personal horror versus many players' intent to make it about moping and/or "kewl powerz". Obviously, as Rein*Hagen is not looking over the shoulders of every GM/ST, the players will generally win.

The mopiness is from the goth/emo/otherkin types who signed onto the Vampire bandwagon, generally to LARP.

The "kewl powerz" impulse almost certainly comes from gamers who migrated to the WoD from D&D and similar games where powergaming was/is common. The power creep that later happened just encouraged this behavior while the massive pagecounts in WoD books related to narrative methods and such egged on the mope.

So you get this inherent disconnect between themes, game mechanics and audience. Now, I don't subscribe to GNS theory, but I consider gamers to have goals/reasons as to why they play - to win, to have fun, the challenge of taking on a role, escapism, collective imagination, etc.

The above three-way conflict could be fixed by changing themes, mechanics or target audience. The latter isn't going to happen, so adjust the rules or what the game is supposed to be about.

I'd say this applies to pretty much any RPG that doesn't quite sit right: don't try to change the people, change the content of the books, whether it be crunch or fluff.

If it's about horror, make it about horror -- being a badass in combat is not horror.

Suggestions to fix Vampire and WoD:

* Make it "bad" to use Vampire powers and drink blood -- these things steadily lead you towards turning into a monster, and losing control of your character (eg. 0 Humanity).
* Make the antagonists in the game more powerful, and intent on either destroying the players or making them destroy themselves (eg. 0 Humanity)
* Make the player's Humanity linked to fragile things (eg. mortal family, symbols of their old life, reservations about being a vampire) -- this is what the antagonists go after.

Basically -- make it so that someone who revels in being a "cool trenchcoat wearing, katana wielding, super-powered Immortal ass-kicker" is on the path to losing the game.

Quote from: Stuart* Make it "bad" to use Vampire powers and drink blood -- these things steadily lead you towards turning into a monster, and losing control of your character (eg. 0 Humanity).
* Make the antagonists in the game more powerful, and intent on either destroying the players or making them destroy themselves (eg. 0 Humanity)
* Make the player's Humanity linked to fragile things (eg. mortal family, symbols of their old life, reservations about being a vampire) -- this is what the antagonists go after.

Sounds almost exactly like how we use to play 1st edition Vampire to me...

Prince of the city arranged for a teenage relative of my character then had the kid hidden in the trunk of my characters car so it looked like I was responsible, when the kid woke up in Frenzy you bet I lost of stack of humanity to feed the near insane little thing. Prince meanwhile called a bloodhunt on the pair of us for breaking the Masquerade and embracing a child.

Much of the rest of the campaign was running for our unlives while searching for a cure for vampirism. In the end the cure involved sacrificing the vampire that "shared blood" with the child i.e. it's sire, but since we didn't know who the sire was it wasn't much help, except we realised my character shared blood being a relative, so my character got to see the sunrise and the kid was saved.

Why does it need to be fixed? The game works as is for all those groups. I've played a lot of non-angsty WoD and known people that played it angsty. I'd lump the mopers in with the angsty types, and either downgrade "kewl powerz" or create a new "normal gaming" group for people that just want to play the game.

But really, it works on all those levels as it is. Changing it to aim it at a specific group will only hinder its sale value.

I wouldn't say "change it", I'd say "make another game for the people who liked the original idea of WoD, but not the implementation.

Are you listening Monty?

I'd like Monte's/WoD to be more Near Dark (Vampire) and Silver Bullet(Werewolf) than what's going on now. Yeah I know the influence of both films can be found in WoD games both past and present, but to me Monte's take should focus on two points of view - predator and hunter (The Hunger shite just does not work for me ).

You either hunt or chase in whatever monster game you are playing.

I mean there was this cool exchange in Near Dark (if I remember correctly):

"How long have you been a vampire?"

"Well I remember the south lost".

Existentialism added for taste.

Regards,
David R

A friend of mine once ran a really good Vampire game where each session was separated by ten years of downtime. It really got across the whole "being immortal" thing in a way which most Vampire games simply fail to do.

Vampire games true to the spirit of the designers? HOLY CRAP! I must have been getting desperate at that point in my life when I was less choosy about the games I participated in.

I know this is wrong to talk bad about a fellow GM, but a friend of mine runs a Dark Ages Vampire campaign where the 2 most prominent PCs are sisters who are unwittingly advocates of 20th-century feminism in the middle ages...and they've formed a democratic human-vampire council in their city to mediate disputes...and the ST let them get away with it! ARGH!
:banghead:
Must be because the sisters are played by his girlfriend and best friend...Welcome to the World of Fluffy Cute Darkness. It's like Bruce Baugh and Justin Achilli had a deformed child with a be-fanged overbite!:yell:

Greg Stolze has said that the NWoD almost certainly got rid of what you hated the most but also got rid of whatever you loved the most.

Sandy Petersen has said that Call of Cthulhu was the work of a talented amature. If he did it these days it would be different, more focused, more polished and people probably wouldn't love it as much.

Lets face it - vampire Rawks. You'll never fix it. At best you'll just move it around.

Quote from: dsivisMust be because the sisters are played by his girlfriend and best friend...

That's the generic problem. The only relation with WoD ist that Vampire game masters might have a slightly better girlfriend statistic

First girlfriends are especially bad. When the alpha-geek finally gets some even heroin addicts laugh at you.

Who are Greg Stolze and Sandy Peterson?

And why can't I call the World of Fluffy Cute Darkness?

Back on topic, I'm wondering that, even if I could have been in a "proper" (according to Rein*Hagen) Vampire game, would I have enjoyed it? The game implies that PC's will generally be neonates, ie mooks. MOOKS?

I'm an archeology undergrad! I'm already a mook! I don't want to play a mook! Most of you guys are probably mooks too! Who wants to play something they are already?

Would a Paladin roleplay a Paladin when not slaying evil? Of course not! (Well, he'd probably not be roleplaying in the 1st place, seeing it as unproductive and possibly infernally-influenced, but that's beside the point!)

Anyway, I just got a little ranty back there. If I start turning into a miniature version of :forge:, please administer a Dr Pepper and a game of Kill Puppies For Satan, as that is the only Forge game I've considered playing.