Okay lots of talk about what is and isn't a rpg. Just for fun let's try to breakdown rpgs into some bite sized pieces. We could talk about the kind of elements that constitute a rpg . We could talk about certain concepts associated with rpgs. Whatever.
Now IMO, all rpgs contain these elements or deal with this subject matter:
Story : It could happen during, after or be the sole purpose of a rpg.
Conflict Resolution : At it's core most if not all rpgs is about conflict and so, there are rules to deal with them.
Player Autonomy & GM Authority - Probably the main theme running through most rpg discussions. Most times it's what separates trad from indie games.
Just a couple of observations. Thoughts ?
Regards,
David R
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Quote from: StuartBreak it down (Oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh oh-oh)
If that "song" ends up in my head tomorrow...I'm going to have to stalk you and kill you.
Edit: Misunderstanding
Regards,
David R
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Stuart those pictures were not work safe (not to mention pretty disgusting). Please don't do it anymore.
Regards (Edit: No reason, not to be polite)
David R
QuoteStuart those pictures were not work safe (not to mention pretty disgusting). Please don't do it anymore.
I linked to an image of MC Hammer dancing back and forth. This one: http://gifdump.com/tag/M.C.%20Hammer/id/980/
They must have an anti-leeching script in place that serves up a different image if you're not looking at the image on that site, or loading it from your cache.
I have no idea what you saw... but I'm guessing it wasn't Hammer.
Sorry about that.
Edit: Seriously. I feel bad if anyone saw something awful. :(
(image removed since the original reason no only exists; thanks for the clarification!)
It wasn't goatse...but it was close enough. Imageshock, photobucket, whatever, are all free and help prevent this sort of thing.
Quote from: StuartI have no idea what you saw... but I'm guessing it wasn't Hammer.
It was some image from rotten.com which looked like a man with his face smashed in.
Let's get this back on track...
QuoteNow IMO, all rpgs contain these elements or deal with this subject matter:
Story : It could happen during, after or be the sole purpose of a rpg.
Conflict Resolution : At it's core most if not all rpgs is about conflict and so, there are rules to deal with them.
Player Autonomy & GM Authority - Probably the main theme running through most rpg discussions. Most times it's what separates trad from indie games.
Just a couple of observations. Thoughts ?
I think you need to consider:
1) Describing the fictional world
2) Talking "in character" for character(s) in the fictional world
3) Narrating the actions of character(s) in the fictional world
4) Narrating the effects of character actions
5) Narrating events that happen in the fictional world
In a traditional RPG, you have the the GM doing #1, #2 and #3 for NPCs, #4, and #5. Players only do #2 and #3 for their own character.
In non-traditional RPGs, you have all the players involved in #1-#5 to varying degrees.
Quote from: StuartLet's get this back on track...
I think you need to consider:
1) Describing the fictional world
2) Talking "in character" for character(s) in the fictional world
3) Narrating the actions of character(s) in the fictional world
4) Narrating the effects of character actions
5) Narrating events that happen in the fictional world
In a traditional RPG, you have the the GM doing #1, #2 and #3 for NPCs, #4, and #5. Players only do #2 and #3 for their own character.
In non-traditional RPGs, you have all the players involved in #1-#5 to varying degrees.
Good points. But I do think that when it comes to
playstyles who does#1 - #5 depends on the group and not really the rpg - most times.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David RGood points. But I do think that when it comes to playstyles who does#1 - #5 depends on the group and not really the rpg - most times.
Regards,
David R
Wow. You mean that you have "traditional" RPG's where the GM speaks for the players' characters (#2)?
Quote from: James J SkachWow. You mean that you have "traditional" RPG's where the GM speaks for the players' characters (#2)?
Good point :D My mistake.
Regards,
David R
As I've said in another thread, this is my effort to distill the core defining characteristics of an RPG.
I believe that an RPG must have all of the following:
1. A traditional player/GM relationship.
2. No set story or plot.
3. No "live action" (LARP) aspect.
Discuss?
Quote from: YamoI believe that an RPG must have all of the following:
1. A traditional player/GM relationship.
Okay what exactly do you mean by traditional? Because I've encountered a hell of a lot of gamers who say they have a trad dynamic but it seems anything but to me.
When I say trad, I kinda of mean the players control their characters and the GM everything else. But, I don't think an RPG must have this dynamic to be an rpg.
Quote2. No set story or plot.
Okay, but what about a GM's basic plot/story outline?
And if railoroading goes on, the participants are not playing an rpg?
Of course I may be reading you wrong...
Regards,
David R
Quote from: Yamo3. No "live action" (LARP) aspect.
But how far beyond talking in character would you have to go before the activity is no longer considered an RPG? As I've said before, a "jury duty" LARP set in the backroom of a courthouse, with the players trying to reach an agreement on the sentence of a murder suspect, might not be easily distinguishable from an ordinary tabletop game.
Quote from: GrimGentBut how far beyond talking in character would you have to go before the activity is no longer considered an RPG? As I've said before, a "jury duty" LARP set in the backroom of a courthouse, with the players trying to reach an agreement on the sentence of a murder suspect, might not be easily distinguishable from an ordinary tabletop game.
You put it very well. I was trying to figure out how to address this last point.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: GrimGentBut how far beyond talking in character would you have to go before the activity is no longer considered an RPG? As I've said before, a "jury duty" LARP set in the backroom of a courthouse, with the players trying to reach an agreement on the sentence of a murder suspect, might not be easily distinguishable from an ordinary tabletop game.
Sounds to me like you'd be better off asking whether your example would be a LARP at all.
Anyway, LARP is like porno. You know it when you see it.
Quote from: David RWhen I say trad, I kinda of mean the players control their characters and the GM everything else. But, I don't think an RPG must have this dynamic to be an rpg.
This is exactly what I mean. I even elaborate on it in my sig.
It may not be defining for you, but it is for me.
Quote from: David ROkay, but what about a GM's basic plot/story outline?
As in when old D&D products would discuss archetypal "dungeon", "wilderness" and "city" adventures?
I have no problem with that.
It's a far cry from that and something as dogmatically-fixed in terms of structure as Sorcerer.
Quote from: YamoAnyway, LARP is like porno. You know it when you see it.
Eh, not necessarily. In the case of mafia or espionage LARPs, trying to remain inconspicuous could very well be one of the objectives in the game: no outsider who passes the players on the street might ever even suspect that something unusual is going on, let alone know about the game.
Quote from: YamoThis is exactly what I mean. I even elaborate on it in my sig.
It may not be defining for you, but it is for me.
You are absolutely right Yamo. I want this thread to be about how folks define rpgs. I just needed a bit of clarification, I was not cruising for an argument.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: GrimGentEh, not necessarily. In the case of mafia or espionage LARPs, trying to remain inconspicuous could very well be one of the objectives in the game: no outsider who passes the players on the street might ever even suspect that something unusual is going on, let alone know about the game.
Well, keep in mind that my reply was directed at GrimGent, who wanted to know if you can still LARP if everybody just sits around a table and talks.
Obviously, if you're not doing that (if you're walking around the joint, in other words) you're LARPing, costumes or genre nonwithstanding.
I guess if you want me to try to narrow it down more, I would say that a LARP is definied by the physical relationships between the players in the real world having a concrete effect on the action in the imagined one.
How does that grab you?
Quote from: YamoWell, keep in mind that my reply was directed at GrimGent, who wanted to know if you can still LARP if everybody just sits around a table and talks.
You see, there
are mafia LARPs which might take place at, say, the back of a local bar and consist of nothing more than discreet negotiations between two crime families. The only real difference from most tabletop RPGs is that everyone stays in character throughout the evening.
Quote from: GrimGentYou see, there are mafia LARPs which might take place at, say, the back of a local bar and consist of nothing more than discreet negotiations between two crime families. The only real difference from most tabletop RPGs is that everyone stays in character throughout the evening.
In what way would that be a LARP then? Sounds like a tabletop game with the secondary details of being held in a restaurant and having a high level of in-character acting.
How would such a game fare when held against the LARP definition I proposed above (physical placement of players in real world affecting action in game world)?
These two points are where you see a lot of difference between traditional and Forge-style RPGs:
1) Describing the fictional world
4) Narrating the effects of character actions
In traditional RPGs, players aren't encouraged to add to the description of the world beyond their character. (#1)
Quote from: The Indie Gaming Scene BlogSo, anyhow, we set off—I was the party's dwarf fighter, and there was an elven cleric, a human ranger, and a gnome wizard, too, if I recall. Our party's quest involved retrieving some rubies from a crypt under this large metropolis—lame, huh? I asked why he didn't just include a big red dragon while he was at it lol! No one else said anything, but I think they were on my side.
We get into the bottom of the crypt, and the GM starts to describe the room we're in. Once he paused, I started adding details, too, like a large acid pit in the middle of the room and shredded purple curtains on the wall and a large glowing battleaxe stuck in a giant dragon skull. The GM stopped the game and said, "What the hell are you doing, dude?"
I rolled my eyes at the poor schlub. "It's called shared narrative control, and it helps build better stories!"
"Well stop it," is all he said.
In traditional RPGs the players state their actions, and the GM describes the results of their success or failure. The move from task-resolution to conflict-resolution is linked to giving the players more control over narrating the results of their character's actions. (#4)
Quote from: StuartThese two points are where you see a lot of difference between traditional and Forge-style RPGs:
1) Describing the fictional world
4) Narrating the effects of character actions
In traditional RPGs, players aren't encouraged to add to the description of the world beyond their character. (#1)
Ummm... I run traditional RPGs, and I encourage my players to add to the game world. I don't put this in the rules I write though, that's a GM choice. Again, that's where the Trad/Forge split occurs - at the game designer/GM level.
Quote from: StuartIn traditional RPGs the players state their actions, and the GM describes the results of their success or failure. The move from task-resolution to conflict-resolution is linked to giving the players more control over narrating the results of their character's actions. (#4)
Again, in trad RPGs, this sort of stuff is not even brought up. It's up to the GM to do this or not.
-clash
Quotethat's where the Trad/Forge split occurs - at the game designer/GM level.
If you had a traditional RPG, and you added rules to explicitly tell the GM to describe the fictional world, and not allow the PCs to do so, I don't think you'd have a game that would be "non-traditional" or comparable to Forge-style games. Same with explicitly stating in the rules that GMs narrate the effects of PC actions.
We should also keep in mind that games that differ from a traditional RPG in how #1-#5 on my list are managed isn't necessarily a forge-style RPG. ;)
FlyingMice and GrimGent , I want to hear your views on the breakdown of a rpg. And if you could list them in point form that would be cool :D
Edit : It would be cool if anyone who is interested in this topic, list their views in point form
Regards,
David R
Quote from: YamoIn what way would that be a LARP then? Sounds like a tabletop game with the secondary details of being held in a restaurant and having a high level of in-character acting.
Here's the thing: the
characters are also a bunch of people sitting around a table at the back and just talking. Without GM narration or basic agreement on the details of the setting ("all right, for now this bar will stand in for a sophisticated Italian restaurant"), the imagined space still overlaps the physical and the players still act out their roles, although their actions probably wouldn't be regarded as unusual by outsiders who haven't been eavesdropping on the conversation.
Quote from: GrimGentHere's the thing: the characters are also a bunch of people sitting around a table at the back and just talking. Without GM narration or basic agreement on the details of the setting ("all right, for now this bar will stand in for a sophisticated Italian restaurant"), the imagined space still overlaps the physical and the players still act out their roles, although their actions probably wouldn't be regarded as unusual by outsiders who haven't been eavesdropping on the conversation.
You are still failing to touch on any aspect of play that would seperate an RPG from a LARP for me.
Again I ask you:
How would such a game fare when held against the LARP definition I proposed above (physical placement of players in real world affecting action in game world)?
Answer or, well, shut up.
Quote from: YamoHow would such a game fare when held against the LARP definition I proposed above (physical placement of players in real world affecting action in game world)?
As said, although the real world overlaps with the imagined environment,
the in-game situation in itself is such that it wouldn't be affected much by the physical actions of the players, since talking around a table is talking around a table regardless of any fictional significance which the game might ascribe to it. Their seating order at the table isn't without meaning, of course, as semiprivate comments between the players next to each other form the bulk of the interaction.
Quote from: GrimGentTheir seating order at the table isn't without meaning, of course...
Than it's a LARP.
Can we shut the fuck up about this now, or what?
Quote from: YamoThan it's a LARP.
That leads to the question of how much you would have to add to
Bang! before it becomes a bona fide RPG, live-action or otherwise.
Quote from: DavidRFlyingMice and GrimGent , I want to hear your views on the breakdown of a rpg. And if you could list them in point form that would be cool
Edit : It would be cool if anyone who is interested in this topic, list their views in point form
My view of RPGs is pretty inclusive. Any game where people play characters is an RPG in my book. That's about it. Game, people, roles. That includes Legend of Zelda and My Life With Master and GURPS and a whole lot more. It's pretty simple and it works for me.
-clash