Hi everyone,

I've decided to dust off an old Mafia game I had worked on a while back and wanted to get some feedback on the core system.  When I left off I had written in notes for both a standard rules-lite DC system and a dice pool system, but I'm undecided on which one to use.  Just wondering what the current trend of preferences is these days.  If I don't get sidetracked by real world issues I'll probably post more about the game and system for feedback.  

Thanks in advance,

Pete

I like both - witness I have alternative percentile and dice pool t-r systems for my games - but I don't like dice pool systems where there are a lot (more than 7-8) of dice. They're a pain to read, and take too much time.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceI don't like dice pool systems where there are a lot (more than 7-8) of dice. They're a pain to read, and take too much time.

Yeah, I know what you mean.  To clarify, the pool I've got counts 5s and 6s as "successes" so it would just be a matter of separating them from the rest of the pack.  I think 10 dice max was the range I was fiddling with, but that's not concrete.

Dice pools is a really large category that covers a lot of ground. I personally like the esthetics of a fist full of dice. The probabilities curves of the dice pool are also nice if you choose the appropriate method for the feel you want.  EDIT: Hint, for a fixed TN based pool like yours a higher TN (usually with more dice to differentiate) has a higher standard deviation so you get a wider results range. A lower TN (say 2 or 3 on a d6) means lower standard deviation. So the bigger dice pool has more of an advantage over the smaller than with the higher TN. Less "randomness", less surprising/amazing results, so it lends itself to gritty vs. the more superhuman feel you tend to get from the higher TN.

You can also do dice pools very, very poorly. I certainly don't like adding up all the numbers on 10d6 when rolling, at least not on a semi-regular basis.

For larger pools, especially for old foggies like Clash and me, it helps to use more suitable dice. With those dice a SR4 dice pool (which can easily run into double digits) is as fast as interpreting a couple of dice. Rivaling even a single die in some ways. No sea of pips, no reading dice upsidedown.

It takes a bit of effort though. Once I had the plan for those it took me about 10 minutes per/die to etch and paint. Although I actually balanced them as well, meaning they are closer to representing the true probabilities inspite of normal manufacturing imperfections, which takes an extra 10 min or so per die. In all it problably took me, including planning, about 8 hours for a set of 18 dice. Not all in one sitting mind you. I built the set up over time. Sounds a bit crazy but I kind of enjoyed it. Definately enjoy the results.

I like dice pools as long as they are kept fairly simple. Nothing is worse than a complex, overly detailed dice pool system.

Quote from: McrowI like dice pools as long as they are kept fairly simple. Nothing is worse than a complex, overly detailed dice pool system.

I agree with that.  I'm taking a fairly simple: stat dice + skill dice +/- misc. dice approach with this pool system.  5s and 6s count as a success - you must get one success to succeed (or one more than your opponent with resisted rolls).  

I'm using d6s BTW.

Pete

BTW I consider things like "2d10, substract the lowest from highest" or "total of 2d6" to be a dice pool mechanic. Just a fixed size pool. The former, while it sounds a bit awkward, seems to play well for most people.

Quote from: blakkieBTW I consider things like "2d10, substract the lowest from highest" or "total of 2d6" to be a dice pool mechanic. Just a fixed size pool. The former, while it sounds a bit awkward, seems to play well for most people.

It *is* a fixed size pool, but it doesn't work like most pools, so I find it easier to categorize them as something different. I generally call systems where you subtract one die from another, like Qin or D4-D4, "Balance Dice," and small totaling pools, like GURPS or JAGS, as "Bell Curve Dice."

D6 pools are not good for me unless you use Blakkie's trick of distinguishing visually successes from non-successes. It gets to be a blur of pips otherwise.

-clash

Quote from: blakkieEDIT: Hint, for a fixed TN based pool like yours a higher TN (usually with more dice to differentiate) has a higher standard deviation so you get a wider results range. A lower TN (say 2 or 3 on a d6) means lower standard deviation. So the bigger dice pool has more of an advantage over the smaller than with the higher TN. Less "randomness", less surprising/amazing results, so it lends itself to gritty vs. the more superhuman feel you tend to get from the higher TN.

Hi Blakkie.  I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.  Are you saying that higher numbers on a d6, 5s and 6s come up more often than 2s and 3s?  Or are you just saying it feels more heroic to be rolling for higher numbers?

Quote from: pspahnHi Blakkie.  I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.  Are you saying that higher numbers on a d6, 5s and 6s come up more often than 2s and 3s?  Or are you just saying it feels more heroic to be rolling for higher numbers?

No, Pete. He means that using a lower TN like a 2+ = success increases the randomness - the standard deviation - than using a higher TN, like your 5+ = success.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceD6 pools are not good for me

d6 was my first thought because the ranges are more manageable and the dice are more accessible.  I had envisioned this as a pickup and play game with a bit of punch for longer runs, so I wanted to avoid non-d6 dice.  Here at work I've been mulling over the mechanics that stack on the core (Rep - street rep; Heat - how much the police hassle you; that sort of thing).  Clash, I'm tentatively using a Notice system a lot like what you outlined in A&A for building Rep.  I hope you don't mind.

Quote from: flyingmiceNo, Pete. He means that using a lower TN like a 2+ = success increases the randomness - the standard deviation - than using a higher TN, like your 5+ = success.

Ah, I get it now.  Thanks!

Quote from: flyingmiceNo, Pete. He means that using a lower TN like a 2+ = success increases the randomness - the standard deviation - than using a higher TN, like your 5+ = success.

-clash

Yeah, except the opposite.  Higher TN (target number, the number you have to roll on a die, or beat, to have a "success" with that die) means less adherence to the number of dice you start with.

EDIT: Although I might have got the 'standard deviation' wrong, not sure at the moment I'd have to check on that. I should have just left that term out. Doh!

The confusing part is that if you are in a system that varies the TN within different parts of the game then the characters with the lower TN are the 'superhumans' but only because they are more consistant.  For overall feel the higher TN means reasonable chance for succeeding at a mundane task also provides for a more likely for the same pool to suceed at an over-the-top task that is requiring more successes.

Quote from: pspahnd6 was my first thought because the ranges are more manageable and the dice are more accessible.  I had envisioned this as a pickup and play game with a bit of punch for longer runs, so I wanted to avoid non-d6 dice.  Here at work I've been mulling over the mechanics that stack on the core (Rep - street rep; Heat - how much the police hassle you; that sort of thing).  Clash, I'm tentatively using a Notice system a lot like what you outlined in A&A for building Rep.  I hope you don't mind.

Heck no! I'm flattered!:D

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceIt *is* a fixed size pool, but it doesn't work like most pools, so I find it easier to categorize them as something different. I generally call systems where you subtract one die from another, like Qin or D4-D4, "Balance Dice," and small totaling pools, like GURPS or JAGS, as "Bell Curve Dice."

That's a pretty good way to look at it, and good examples.

QuoteD6 pools are not good for me unless you use Blakkie's trick of distinguishing visually successes from non-successes. It gets to be a blur of pips otherwise.

When you use TN 4 on d6 (without a bunch of special rules) it becomes like a "Bell Curve Dice" of d2s. Yes or no, 1 or 0. You add up all the 1s.  But coins are physically even more a PITA to pick up than a bunch of d6.

P.S.  That's why I like Fudge too. Because you can just go buy the much easier to read dice. And they are a bit more explicit about the fact that you are just adding/subtracting 1s.