What if the three year truce arranged between Richard Courleon and Saladin in 1192 had jelled and lasted, giving time for the crusader states of Outremer to become real nations?
Step forward 450 years...
In Palestine, there would be a mix of Muslims, Jews, and Christians. Projecting from what had already happened in the Crusades, there would have arisen a curious mix of states, some with toleration, some intolerant, with some nominal Christian States allied to Muslim nations and vice versa. There would be old time Crusader families who had worked out a modus vivendi with the Muslims, fiery clerics preaching against this laxity, new-come Europeans from the home countries, Turks and Turcomen, Bedouins, the corrupt Caliphate... In short, a marvelous brew of potential.
I'm thinking of using Blood Games 2 for this setting, but strictly separating magical and non-magical, so it can be played as an alt-history as well as a fantasy game.
What do you all think?
-clash
The crusader states had ties to French nobility, right? Things could get interesting with Louis XIV, or the Austrian conflicts with the Ottomans.
Quote from: JongWKThe crusader states had ties to French nobility, right? Things could get interesting with Louis XIV, or the Austrian conflicts with the Ottomans.
Exactly! there's lots of very interesting possibilities here. :D
-clash
I'm sure you know I think this is a GREAT idea ! - esp the alt history angle.
Perhaps you could add a section dealing with scientific discoveries (kinda of speculative science) what with all this mixing of cultures.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David RI'm sure you know I think this is a GREAT idea ! - esp the alt history angle.
Perhaps you could add a section dealing with scientific discoveries (kinda of speculative science) what with all this mixing of cultures.
Regards,
David R
Excellent point, David! The crusades came before the height of Islamic culture, and before the subsequent retrenchment into fundamentalism and apathy. Maybe this would forestall that tragedy, and spread the brilliant Muslim work in the sciences throughout Europe, igniting an earlier or higher renaissance. Especially in concert with the Moors in Spain. Perhaps even to the point of allowing the Moors to remain in Grenada? I don't know about that - the Spanish defined themselves by the Reconquista. Still, it's an interesting avenue of speculation. :D
-clash
What do you guys think about keeping the magical aspects separate? Would this encourage a more alt.historical approach? Should I just go alt.history and scrap the magic? I was very intrigued by a commingling of European and Islamic traditional monsters as well as societies. Djinn and Efrits battling or co-existing with vampires and lycanthropes? Remember, according to Muslim sources, Djinn and Efrits can be converted, which is exactly in line with the Blood Games philosophy. Werejackals? Christian Djinn? Weird blendings of European and Middle Eastern creatures?
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceWhat do you guys think about keeping the magical aspects separate? Would this encourage a more alt.historical approach? Should I just go alt.history and scrap the magic? I was very intrigued by a commingling of European and Islamic traditional monsters as well as societies. Djinn and Efrits battling or co-existing with vampires and lycanthropes? Remember, according to Muslim sources, Djinn and Efrits can be converted, which is exactly in line with the Blood Games philosophy. Werejackals? Christian Djinn? Weird blendings of European and Middle Eastern creatures?
I'm a bit torn. What you describe sounds interesting....but personally, I would much prefer an alt history game myself. I think it would be interesting to have characters of different cultures participating in jousting tournaments - if I remember correctly there was a
Pendragon supplement ....
The Black Knight (?) which centered on such game play or perhaps some Middle Eastern sporting event. Addled alchemists making pacts with drug crazed
hasishins. Illicit trade between rival Noble Houses. That kind of stuff :D
Regards,
David R
Would putting in the magic stuff as a totally walled off optional section interfere with the alt.history aspect, David? It is the raison d'etre of Blood Games, in spite of the fact it can do historical/alt.historical gaming with ease. Would the game be better served by including its own non-magical variant of the system, like the IHW games?
-clash
I think a better idea is the type of thing I am doing with Respublica. That is, make "magic" in the mind of the beholder. So, it mostly comes down to curses. If you curse someone to have boils, if they believe enough, it will happen. This way, you do not ignore the beliefs of the time as magic existing but then you do not make it something it was not (as in casting a fireball). Combine this with extreme social penalties (hes a witch, burn him!) and make it rare.
As to clerics calling down the wrath of god...hmm, not convinced. If you want to support it, again, make it rare and difficult. I would suggest a couple of possible approaches. First, you might make it a very low probability of anything happening. The more "real";i.e. lightning striking foes that the effect is the lower the probability. Second, you might look into resource management. Sure, you can call on the Big G for help but what have you done for him lately? Award Pious Points and it costs certain amounts to do minor things (healing, creating food) but huge amounts for the major stuff (Lightning bolts, raising the dead).
Now, overall, I like the idea of keeping the magic separate but it would not make sense of magic is common and easily accessible. So, to help separate it, you need to make it rare and exceptional.
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltI think a better idea is the type of thing I am doing with Respublica. That is, make "magic" in the mind of the beholder. So, it mostly comes down to curses. If you curse someone to have boils, if they believe enough, it will happen. This way, you do not ignore the beliefs of the time as magic existing but then you do not make it something it was not (as in casting a fireball). Combine this with extreme social penalties (hes a witch, burn him!) and make it rare.
As to clerics calling down the wrath of god...hmm, not convinced. If you want to support it, again, make it rare and difficult. I would suggest a couple of possible approaches. First, you might make it a very low probability of anything happening. The more "real";i.e. lightning striking foes that the effect is the lower the probability. Second, you might look into resource management. Sure, you can call on the Big G for help but what have you done for him lately? Award Pious Points and it costs certain amounts to do minor things (healing, creating food) but huge amounts for the major stuff (Lightning bolts, raising the dead).
Now, overall, I like the idea of keeping the magic separate but it would not make sense of magic is common and easily accessible. So, to help separate it, you need to make it rare and exceptional.
Bill
Blood Games magic is not of the fireball type, Bill. You can't even cast a spell in the face of determined scepticism. It's generally subtle - one of my games hinged on a witch casting a spell which dropped the opponent's trousers around his ankles - and attributable to coincidence and "trick of the light" type explaining.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceBlood Games magic is not of the fireball type, Bill. You can't even cast a spell in the face of determined scepticism. It's generally subtle - one of my games hinged on a witch casting a spell which dropped the opponent's trousers around his ankles - and attributable to coincidence and "trick of the light" type explaining.
-clash
The separation should be a simple thing. In Respublica casting a spell is more about psychology than magic.
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltThe separation should be a simple thing. In Respublica casting a spell is more about psychology than magic.
Bill
I have no doubt it should be very simple. My question was whether having it there as a walled-off optional section would be beneficial or would detract from the historical stuff.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceI have no doubt it should be very simple. My question was whether having it there as a walled-off optional section would be beneficial or would detract from the historical stuff.
-clash
And my advice was, sure, if you do it right. If you make it a fireball and lightning bolt kind of magic, it wont work. It would make no sense in the setting. So, yeah, make it an appendix. Reference miraculous happenings and secret evil wizards but I would go as far as to say that PCs just aren;t the ones doing this "as a profession". So, no evil sorcerer but you might have a sneak thief who was taught a curse as a child. No "Cleric heals for a d8" but you might have a prayer of a pious man answered.
It is kind of a conditional answer but there it is.
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltAnd my advice was, sure, if you do it right. If you make it a fireball and lightning bolt kind of magic, it wont work. It would make no sense in the setting. So, yeah, make it an appendix. Reference miraculous happenings and secret evil wizards but I would go as far as to say that PCs just aren;t the ones doing this "as a profession". So, no evil sorcerer but you might have a sneak thief who was taught a curse as a child. No "Cleric heals for a d8" but you might have a prayer of a pious man answered.
It is kind of a conditional answer but there it is.
Bill
OK! Gotcha now! :D
Thanks, Bill!
-clash
I forgot this was supposed to be a sourcebook for Blood Games II. Yeah, have a separate section....in other words : What Bill said.
Btw have you read Brian Stableford's The Empire of Fear ?
http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Fear-Brian-Stableford/dp/0671699458
There's a whole chunk dealing with the Crusades which should give you some ideas.
Edit: I can see some interesting possibilities with the introduction of the supernatural. Enslaved Christian Djinn struggling with their faith under cruel masters. Sufi mystics inspired by Shelley (okay the timeline is a bit off but this is supposed to be an alt history setting, right ? :D ) create strange automatons deep in the desert...
Regards,
David R
What are you thinking of doing with the Mongolian Empire (1200s) and the resulting black plague? Would the Mamluks (who helped drive out the Mongols) have different religious values, or would they still be Muslim?
Quote from: madunkiegWhat are you thinking of doing with the Mongolian Empire (1200s) and the resulting black plague? Would the Mamluks (who helped drive out the Mongols) have different religious values, or would they still be Muslim?
I'm thinking that the Mamluks, Arabs, and Franks had to cooperate to drive out the Mongols, as a common enemy. This would have made both sides aware that the other side could be trusted somewhat.
The Mamluks had been raised Muslim since 900, though they were born otherwise, as they were Circassian or Georgian Christian or Pagan KipchakTurk children, captured as slaves, and raised as warriors. They had taken over Egypt after Louis IX took Damietta in the 7th crusade, when the heirs of Saladin failed to confront the Franks. Baibars and the Mamluks won a crushing victory over the Franks, capturing Louis. There is no compelling reason why they would take any other religion than Islam in my scenario.
I think in any case, the Arabs and Turks would make a big distinction between the old Crusader who had lived there for hundreds of years and Europeans fresh off the boat.
-clash
As far as I can tell, it may be better to detail what magic people believe to exist and leave rules in a chapter exclusively for the GM in case he wants to make it real. Bring in the mummies, the solomon's seals, the magic rings, flying carpets, holy grails, the true cross, the arc of the covenant, traditional Jewish golems, etc. If not in functioning mechanics, these things (some of them) should exist at least in rumors.
"Magic" does not have to directly imply the existence of "spellcasters." If you do include spellcasters... Prophets would abound, but only NPCs maddened by the whispering of the djinn, so even if you believe in their magic, there's the possibility they're just plain being lied to. For more traditional spellcasters, look to the Magi, specifically good if you want to tie it to pre-Islamic religions like Zoroastrianism, or to the Sufi (although I don't know when they got their start). Still, you tie it too closely to actual real world religion, you run the risk of losing that psychotic sorcerer archetype that just plain needs to be there if there are spellcasters at all.
Quote from: beejazzAs far as I can tell, it may be better to detail what magic people believe to exist and leave rules in a chapter exclusively for the GM in case he wants to make it real. Bring in the mummies, the solomon's seals, the magic rings, flying carpets, holy grails, the true cross, the arc of the covenant, traditional Jewish golems, etc. If not in functioning mechanics, these things (some of them) should exist at least in rumors.
"Magic" does not have to directly imply the existence of "spellcasters." If you do include spellcasters... Prophets would abound, but only NPCs maddened by the whispering of the djinn, so even if you believe in their magic, there's the possibility they're just plain being lied to. For more traditional spellcasters, look to the Magi, specifically good if you want to tie it to pre-Islamic religions like Zoroastrianism, or to the Sufi (although I don't know when they got their start). Still, you tie it too closely to actual real world religion, you run the risk of losing that psychotic sorcerer archetype that just plain needs to be there if there are spellcasters at all.
Hi beejazz!
Blood Games magic is already extraordinarily closely tied to real world religions, and Zoroastrianism is described in the core book already, along with its rituals and what they do in-game. It also has traditional sorcerers - called Esotericists in the game, because they pull from all sources. Golems are there as well.
I will leave magic in the main part of the book as Bill and yourself suggested - mainly psychological - and place the Paths of Power into a separate optional section.
-clash
Quote from: David RI forgot this was supposed to be a sourcebook for Blood Games II. Yeah, have a separate section....in other words : What Bill said.
Btw have you read Brian Stableford's The Empire of Fear ?
http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Fear-Brian-Stableford/dp/0671699458
There's a whole chunk dealing with the Crusades which should give you some ideas.
Edit: I can see some interesting possibilities with the introduction of the supernatural. Enslaved Christian Djinn struggling with their faith under cruel masters. Sufi mystics inspired by Shelley (okay the timeline is a bit off but this is supposed to be an alt history setting, right ? :D ) create strange automatons deep in the desert...
Regards,
David R
I intend to bring in all of those themes, David! :D
I've never read The Empire of Fear, but now I'll have to read up on it! :P
-clash
This scenario would severely curtail the spread of the Ottoman empire. No siege of Vienna? No taking over the Balkans? No taking over the Mamluks? Byzantium? Would they, in that case, have enough slaves to make their janissary armies?
BTW - If you're looking for sources on the Ottomans, Lords of the Horizon by erm...erm...i can't find it. Someone. Is good.
I also really like reference to a resitance fighter from Albania who fought the Ottomans to a standstill - where else do you read about Albania? Skanderbeg or Eskander Bey. He was an escaped jannisary who saved his homeland from the Ottoman hoards. Sorry, tangent. I like the story - even though you can't find much in the English language about him. Also, about a century too early...:o
Quote from: One Horse TownThis scenario would severely curtail the spread of the Ottoman empire. No siege of Vienna? No taking over the Balkans? No taking over the Mamluks? Byzantium? Would they, in that case, have enough slaves to make their janissary armies?
The Ottomans would present a situation much like the Mongols, where the Franks and Arabs together could have prevented their taking over the area. That shouldn't affect their taking over southern Europe, except for slowing it down a bit. The Latins would still have weakened Byzantium enough so that it would fall. :D
QuoteBTW - If you're looking for sources on the Ottomans, Lords of the Horizon by erm...erm...i can't find it. Someone. Is good.
I'll look for it!
QuoteI also really like reference to a resitance fighter from Albania who fought the Ottomans to a standstill - where else do you read about Albania? Skanderbeg or Eskander Bey. He was an escaped jannisary who saved his homeland from the Ottoman hoards. Sorry, tangent. I like the story - even though you can't find much in the English language about him. Also, about a century too early...:o
But he would be in the backstory, neh? :D
-clash
What I am NOT going for here is a static, peaceful setting where Arabs, Christians and Jews all live in happy harmony, feasting each other on roasted goat and date wine.
What I AM going for is a dynamic setting where religion is not the ONLY factor in relations; where the states squabble amongst each other when left alone, but tend to unite - in a prickly way - against outside aggression; where wars are small, local and limited, and not vast sweeping enterprises designed to drive the enemy into the sea; where Sheik Mustafa might fight with Count Roland against the Fatimid Sultan, where a Frank and an Arab can be closest friends, bitter enemies, or casual acquaintances in spite of their religious differences.
-clash
Since the timeline is 1650, you may find this interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbateans
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David RSince the timeline is 1650, you may find this interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbateans
Regards,
David R
Very cool! Thanks for the link, David! :D
-clash
And since we are talking about Blood Games II, don't forget about the atheist aspect....Marlowe (and I'm pretty sure I'm in the correct time frame :D ) was accused of being one, right ?
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David RAnd since we are talking about Blood Games II, don't forget about the atheist aspect....Marlowe (and I'm pretty sure I'm in the correct time frame :D ) was accused of being one, right ?
Regards,
David R
Accused justly, IMO! A very good point, and one I won't neglect! :D
-clash
I forgot about this thread entirely! I've been posting about Outremer in my Blog lately:
Outremer (http://iflybynight.blogspot.com/2009/12/outremer.html) is a general introduction to the setting.
Outremer - A Brief Time of History (http://iflybynight.blogspot.com/2010/01/alt-history-of-outremer.html) details where History changed into alt.history for Outremer.
Outremer - Ascalon, and More Setting Crap to Ignore! (http://iflybynight.blogspot.com/2010/02/outremer-ascalon-and-more-setting-crap.html) details one of the nations formed in Outremer, the Order State of Ascalon.
More Outremer junk - just ignore and move along... (http://iflybynight.blogspot.com/2010/02/more-outremer-junk-just-ignore-and-move.html) shows some maps of the setting.
Outremer Paths (http://iflybynight.blogspot.com/2010/03/outremer-paths.html) covers the major magical options.
Outremer Quasi-Paths and Player Options (http://iflybynight.blogspot.com/2010/03/outremer-quasi-paths-and-player-options.html) covers the more minor magical options.
I have come around to treating magic exactly as I did in OHMAS. It is what it is, and I won't work around it. It will be easy enough to drop Paths and Character Options out of chargen if you want to play this straight, without magic.
-clash
Quote from: One Horse Town;212980This scenario would severely curtail the spread of the Ottoman empire. No siege of Vienna? No taking over the Balkans? No taking over the Mamluks? Byzantium? Would they, in that case, have enough slaves to make their janissary armies?
As you can see by my new time-lines (Outremer - A Brief Time of History) and the maps (More Outremer junk - just ignore and move along...) Saladin never takes Egypt, which remains Shi'ite, which means no Mamluks, which means no Baybars, which means the Ottomans are kept busy in Anatolia, dealing with the Latins and/or Greeks in Constantinople. The Mongols were defeated by an alliance of the various Muslim and Christian Outremer states, the Ottomans, and the remnants of Baghdad's armies. I haven't decided on whether Byzantium had been conquered yet. Rhodes is a remnant of the Latin Empire of Constantinople.
-clash