What if the three year truce arranged between Richard Courleon and Saladin in 1192 had jelled and lasted, giving time for the crusader states of Outremer to become real nations?

Step forward 450 years...

In Palestine, there would be a mix of Muslims, Jews, and Christians. Projecting from what had already happened in the Crusades, there would have arisen a curious mix of states, some with toleration, some intolerant, with some nominal Christian States allied to Muslim nations and vice versa. There would be old time Crusader families who had worked out a modus vivendi with the Muslims, fiery clerics preaching against this laxity, new-come Europeans from the home countries, Turks and Turcomen, Bedouins, the corrupt Caliphate... In short, a marvelous brew of potential.

I'm thinking of using Blood Games 2 for this setting, but strictly separating magical and non-magical, so it can be played as an alt-history as well as a fantasy game.

What do you all think?

-clash

The crusader states had ties to French nobility, right? Things could get interesting with Louis XIV, or the Austrian conflicts with the Ottomans.

Quote from: JongWKThe crusader states had ties to French nobility, right? Things could get interesting with Louis XIV, or the Austrian conflicts with the Ottomans.

Exactly! there's lots of very interesting possibilities here.

-clash

I'm sure you know I think this is a GREAT idea ! - esp the alt history angle.

Perhaps you could add a section dealing with scientific discoveries (kinda of speculative science) what with all this mixing of cultures.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RI'm sure you know I think this is a GREAT idea ! - esp the alt history angle.

Perhaps you could add a section dealing with scientific discoveries (kinda of speculative science) what with all this mixing of cultures.

Regards,
David R

Excellent point, David! The crusades came before the height of Islamic culture, and before the subsequent retrenchment into fundamentalism and apathy. Maybe this would forestall that tragedy, and spread the brilliant Muslim work in the sciences throughout Europe, igniting an earlier or higher renaissance. Especially in concert with the Moors in Spain. Perhaps even to the point of allowing the Moors to remain in Grenada? I don't know about that - the Spanish defined themselves by the Reconquista. Still, it's an interesting avenue of speculation.

-clash

What do you guys think about keeping the magical aspects separate? Would this encourage a more alt.historical approach? Should I just go alt.history and scrap the magic? I was very intrigued by a commingling of European and Islamic traditional monsters as well as societies. Djinn and Efrits battling or co-existing with vampires and lycanthropes? Remember, according to Muslim sources, Djinn and Efrits can be converted, which is exactly in line with the Blood Games philosophy. Werejackals? Christian Djinn? Weird blendings of European and Middle Eastern creatures?

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceWhat do you guys think about keeping the magical aspects separate? Would this encourage a more alt.historical approach? Should I just go alt.history and scrap the magic? I was very intrigued by a commingling of European and Islamic traditional monsters as well as societies. Djinn and Efrits battling or co-existing with vampires and lycanthropes? Remember, according to Muslim sources, Djinn and Efrits can be converted, which is exactly in line with the Blood Games philosophy. Werejackals? Christian Djinn? Weird blendings of European and Middle Eastern creatures?

I'm a bit torn. What you describe sounds interesting....but personally, I would much prefer an alt history game myself. I think it would be interesting to have characters of different cultures participating in jousting tournaments - if I remember correctly there was a Pendragon supplement ....The Black Knight (?) which centered on such game play or perhaps some Middle Eastern sporting event. Addled alchemists making pacts with drug crazed hasishins. Illicit trade between rival Noble Houses. That kind of stuff

Regards,
David R

Would putting in the magic stuff as a totally walled off optional section interfere with the alt.history aspect, David? It is the raison d'etre of Blood Games, in spite of the fact it can do historical/alt.historical gaming with ease. Would the game be better served by including its own non-magical variant of the system, like the IHW games?

-clash

I think a better idea is the type of thing I am doing with Respublica. That is, make "magic" in the mind of the beholder. So, it mostly comes down to curses. If you curse someone to have boils, if they believe enough, it will happen. This way, you do not ignore the beliefs of the time as magic existing but then you do not make it something it was not (as in casting a fireball). Combine this with extreme social penalties (hes a witch, burn him!) and make it rare.

As to clerics calling down the wrath of god...hmm, not convinced. If you want to support it, again, make it rare and difficult. I would suggest a couple of possible approaches. First, you might make it a very low probability of anything happening. The more "real";i.e. lightning striking foes that the effect is the lower the probability. Second, you might look into resource management. Sure, you can call on the Big G for help but what have you done for him lately? Award Pious Points and it costs certain amounts to do minor things (healing, creating food) but huge amounts for the major stuff (Lightning bolts, raising the dead).

Now, overall, I like the idea of keeping the magic separate but it would not make sense of magic is common and easily accessible. So, to help separate it, you need to make it rare and exceptional.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltI think a better idea is the type of thing I am doing with Respublica. That is, make "magic" in the mind of the beholder. So, it mostly comes down to curses. If you curse someone to have boils, if they believe enough, it will happen. This way, you do not ignore the beliefs of the time as magic existing but then you do not make it something it was not (as in casting a fireball). Combine this with extreme social penalties (hes a witch, burn him!) and make it rare.

As to clerics calling down the wrath of god...hmm, not convinced. If you want to support it, again, make it rare and difficult. I would suggest a couple of possible approaches. First, you might make it a very low probability of anything happening. The more "real";i.e. lightning striking foes that the effect is the lower the probability. Second, you might look into resource management. Sure, you can call on the Big G for help but what have you done for him lately? Award Pious Points and it costs certain amounts to do minor things (healing, creating food) but huge amounts for the major stuff (Lightning bolts, raising the dead).

Now, overall, I like the idea of keeping the magic separate but it would not make sense of magic is common and easily accessible. So, to help separate it, you need to make it rare and exceptional.

Bill

Blood Games magic is not of the fireball type, Bill. You can't even cast a spell in the face of determined scepticism. It's generally subtle - one of my games hinged on a witch casting a spell which dropped the opponent's trousers around his ankles - and attributable to coincidence and "trick of the light" type explaining.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceBlood Games magic is not of the fireball type, Bill. You can't even cast a spell in the face of determined scepticism. It's generally subtle - one of my games hinged on a witch casting a spell which dropped the opponent's trousers around his ankles - and attributable to coincidence and "trick of the light" type explaining.

-clash

The separation should be a simple thing. In Respublica casting a spell is more about psychology than magic.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltThe separation should be a simple thing. In Respublica casting a spell is more about psychology than magic.

Bill

I have no doubt it should be very simple. My question was whether having it there as a walled-off optional section would be beneficial or would detract from the historical stuff.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmiceI have no doubt it should be very simple. My question was whether having it there as a walled-off optional section would be beneficial or would detract from the historical stuff.

-clash

And my advice was, sure, if you do it right. If you make it a fireball and lightning bolt kind of magic, it wont work. It would make no sense in the setting. So, yeah, make it an appendix. Reference miraculous happenings and secret evil wizards but I would go as far as to say that PCs just aren;t the ones doing this "as a profession". So, no evil sorcerer but you might have a sneak thief who was taught a curse as a child. No "Cleric heals for a d8" but you might have a prayer  of a pious man answered.

It is kind of a conditional answer but there it is.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltAnd my advice was, sure, if you do it right. If you make it a fireball and lightning bolt kind of magic, it wont work. It would make no sense in the setting. So, yeah, make it an appendix. Reference miraculous happenings and secret evil wizards but I would go as far as to say that PCs just aren;t the ones doing this "as a profession". So, no evil sorcerer but you might have a sneak thief who was taught a curse as a child. No "Cleric heals for a d8" but you might have a prayer  of a pious man answered.

It is kind of a conditional answer but there it is.

Bill

OK! Gotcha now!

Thanks, Bill!

-clash

I forgot this was supposed to be a sourcebook for Blood Games II. Yeah, have a separate section....in other words : What Bill said.

Btw have you read Brian Stableford's The Empire of Fear ?

http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Fear-Brian-Stableford/dp/0671699458

There's a whole chunk dealing with the Crusades which should give you some ideas.

Edit: I can see some interesting possibilities with the introduction of the supernatural.  Enslaved Christian Djinn struggling with their faith under cruel masters. Sufi mystics inspired by Shelley (okay the timeline is a bit off but this is supposed to be an alt history setting, right ? ) create strange automatons deep in the desert...

Regards,
David R