TheRPGSite

This is an idea I've been tinkering with for years, and am leaning towards implementing it into my Bleeding Sky game.  The general gist is that rather than have a table of pre-made weapons, I'll have a mechanic in place where players create their own weapons.  This is primarily because there isn't any significant difference in a RPG between a Beretta 9mm and a Walther 9mm other than cosmetic, and it allows the players to have some customization.  I will probably have a weapon chart anyway, just as an example and for quick-start purposes, but the focus will be on individual weapon design.

Here is a rough draft of what the process would look like:


(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/weaponcreation.jpg)

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g141/rajzwaibel/weaponcreation2.jpg)

Step 1: Choose Rating-Group type.  Say you choose a rifle, so the first part of your weapon is "R" and you note the base stats

Step 2: Choose Rating-Ammunition.  Going with Cartridge.  Nothing fancy.  So far you're "RC"

Step 3: Rating-Breech.  Let's go with a hybrid.  "RC-H"

Step 4: Rating-Caliber.  Medium Caliber (like a 5.56 round).  So your weapon is "RC-H2".  Or essentially an M16 A2 or similar assault rifle.  On your character sheet, you would jot down in the appropriate fields:
RC-H2, Range: 25/150/300/500, Tech: 4, Init: +2, Weight: 8lbs, Dmg: Core+2, AB: +2, Cost: $750

As a comparison, a .50 cal sniper rifle would be: RA-B4 (Range: 62/375/750/1250, Tech: 3, Init: +2, Weight: 24 lbs, Dmg: 4xCore, AB: spec--anti material use special rules for armor bypass, Cost: $2500)

The second image is for accessories, if you so want them.  E.g., if you want to add a scope and collapsible stock, your final weapon would be: RC-H2-CP/SO

The acronyms might seem a bit weird initially, but you quickly get to know what they are, and it helps give the military flavor (since everything was acronymed).

Too complex?  Not complex (options) enough?  Just meh about the whole thing, or is this something you would want?

Way too complex, this is almost GURPSian in detail.
Not a thing i'd ever want from any RPG i'd buy.

Looks good to me, but then I made my own weapon design subsystem, so I'm mad by definition. :D

'll send it to you if you like! PM me!

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;566418Looks good to me, but then I made my own weapon design subsystem, so I'm mad by definition. :D



-clash

If by "mad by definition", you mean the definition of a game designer, I totally agree.  I mean, what rational person does this kind of stuff?   :D

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566431If by "mad by definition", you mean the definition of a game designer, I totally agree.  I mean, what rational person does this kind of stuff?   :D

You got it! :D

-clash

I think it needs some kind of stop in place to keep people from going with the PG4-L3-CS/P.

Also, do you have an magazine size mechanic, or is it cinematic?

I think it's very intuitive and easy to use, especially compared to systems like Shadowrun or Cyberpunk.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;566502I think it needs some kind of stop in place to keep people from going with the PG4-L3-CS/P.

That would be sort of impossible.  You've essentially created a pistol 40mm corner shot suppressed grenade launcher that is lever action and fires large caliber ammo.  40mm grenade weapons don't have a caliber size because they do a set amount of damage regardless of where they are fired from.

And if a player said that's the weapon they wanted, I'd ask them to sketch it out for me ;)  I would hope some common sense would prevent that sort of thing.


Of course, most of this is explained in the actual Rating Descriptions text, which you don't have, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt ;)

QuoteAlso, do you have an magazine size mechanic, or is it cinematic?

I think it's very intuitive and easy to use, especially compared to systems like Shadowrun or Cyberpunk.

Magazine size is pretty much set since there isn't a whole lot of room for custom design.  It is just easier to have a table that says caliber size on one axis, magazine size (small, large, drum) on another axis, and have maximum capacity in the cells in between.

I do have a pretty extensive table for ammunition though.  Just for cartridges, there are the following options:
Armor Piercing (AP)
Birdshot
Buck Shot
FMJ
Frangible
Hollow-point
Hydra shock
Soft Tip
Mixed alloy
Sabot
Smooth bore rifled slug
THV
Tracer
Slug, armor piercing
Slug, frangible

Looks alright to me, is there a method for completely new technologies included? Like say a weapon that shoots shuriken, or one that flings teddy bears with lethal force?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566508That would be sort of impossible.  You've essentially created a pistol 40mm grenade launcher that is lever action and fires large caliber ammo.  40mm grenade weapons don't have a caliber size because they do a set amount of damage regardless of where they are fired from.

Of course, most of this is explained in the actual Rating Descriptions text, which you don't have, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt ;)

Magazine size is pretty much set since there isn't a whole lot of room for custom design.  It is just easier to have a table that says caliber size on one axis, magazine size (small, large, drum) on another axis, and have maximum capacity in the cells in between.

I do have a pretty extensive table for ammunition though.  Just for cartridges, there are the following options:
Armor Piercing (AP)
Birdshot
Buck Shot
FMJ
Frangible
Hollow-point
Hydra shock
Soft Tip
Mixed alloy
Sabot
Smooth bore rifled slug
THV
Tracer
Slug, armor piercing
Slug, frangible

I WAS trying to pick the most obnoxious-seeming combination :)  And don't forget that it was corner shot and suppressed, ideal for those quiet takedowns :)

How do you handle double weapons or undermounts like the M320 or 203, or something like the XM29?  A weapons mating component would work for that, I suppose.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;566514How do you handle double weapons or undermounts like the M320 or 203, or something like the XM29?  A weapons mating component would work for that, I suppose.

I don't have the rules in front of me anymore, but if I recall, under the various weapon descriptions, there is a paragraph that they would be considered PG4-1, or "pistol, 40mm grenade, breech load"

There will be plenty of examples given so people can get a good idea.

And I disagree with the following statement completely (at least to how it's applied in what follows).

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566331This is primarily because there isn't any significant difference in a RPG between a Beretta 9mm and a Walther 9mm other than cosmetic,

As to the rest, way too much work for something that is as flavor-less as a short generic weapon list.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566540I don't have the rules in front of me anymore, but if I recall, under the various weapon descriptions, there is a paragraph that they would be considered PG4-1, or "pistol, 40mm grenade, breech load"

There will be plenty of examples given so people can get a good idea.

Again, I like it.  I also like that for the most part, each weapon will wind up with a nice "Pattern Designation" (to borrow from 40k) that will provide individualization for the players.

I could even see a weapons vending machine selling made-to order guns on streetcorners in the sprawl.

"Hold on bud, gotta pick up another poly-shot and some rounds before we hit this liquor store"

Quote from: gleichman;566541And I disagree with the following statement completely (at least to how it's applied in what follows).

Curious.  May I ask why?  I mean, sure there are differences if you go into a really micro level, but then you end up with thousands of weapons that really don't have any major significant difference in the context of an RPG.  Do people playing an RPG really sit and do ballistics calculations to capture realism?

QuoteAs to the rest, way too much work for something that is as flavor-less as a short generic weapon list.

Well, it's not just a stand alone.  It's part of the Bleeding Sky game, which is a post-apocalyptic setting.  So having custom creation sort of fits the "scavenge pieces and put together a weapon" theme

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566547Curious.  May I ask why?  I mean, sure there are differences if you go into a really micro level, but then you end up with thousands of weapons that really don't have any major significant difference in the context of an RPG.

The fact that significant differences exist is why there are so many weapons produced even of roughly the same type.

The ability to show off those differences depends upon the system being used. I was somewhat amazed at how much (i.e. differences between weapons) I was able to squeeze into HERO System for example. Lighter rule systems have less room to show anything and thus at the extreme end all firearms become a 'gun' and nothing more.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566547Do people playing an RPG really sit and do ballistics calculations to capture realism?

Some do. Others like that fact that some do.

Yet others don't care at all, and the guns can come straight out Elmer Fudd's hands for all they care.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566547Well, it's not just a stand alone.  It's part of the Bleeding Sky game, which is a post-apocalyptic setting.  So having custom creation sort of fits the "scavenge pieces and put together a weapon" theme

Custom setting can get away with many sins, and it would be wrong of me to assume that the weapons presented in "Bleeding Sky" mirror the performance and construction of those of the real world.

So you can get away with want you like and should consider my comments to apply to a near-real world simulation.

Quote from: gleichman;566555The fact that significant differences exist is why there are so many weapons produced even of roughly the same type..

I won't disagree that there is a difference, but in the context of an rpg, what is the significant difference between a Walther 9mm PPS and a Beretta 9mm 92F?  If the same ammo is used, there isn't one.  You might say a standard 7 round magazine vs 13 round, but that's a magazine difference and you don't need to list all 9mm handguns with different magazine sizes.  Just allow them all to use varying magazines and keep it easy.  You could also say the PPS weighs 13 oz less, but again, you could just say "lightweight" vs "normal" handgun.

I think if you get too far into the differences, you have a ton of bloat and you end up spending more time comparing guns than you do playing the game.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566638I won't disagree that there is a difference, but in the context of an rpg, what is the significant difference between a Walther 9mm PPS and a Beretta 9mm 92F?

The Walther PPS is a concealed carry weapon, with polymer frame, shorter sight radius, shorter barrel and reduced size grip compared to the 92F.

In practical terms (and with the typical user) this results in higher felt recoil, more difficult follow up shots, slightly lower muzzle velocity with the same ammo, and reduced accuracy compared to the 92F. It is however more concealable (which is the primary point).

Completely different weapons, and as someone who's fired pistols in the Walther Class (and have fired the 92F in addition)- they are as night and day in actual use both in intent and actual function.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566638I think if you get too far into the differences, you have a ton of bloat and you end up spending more time comparing guns than you do playing the game.

As someone who has spent a lot of time going into the differences (both in real life and in game design), I can say in complete truth that I've spent far more time playing the game (on the order of few magitude I would think)  than I did working out the system conversions. Although I will say that I had great deal of fun doing both.

Of course I did have the advantage of already knowing and researching firearms in depth before undertaking anything in game design.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566547Curious.  May I ask why?  I mean, sure there are differences if you go into a really micro level, but then you end up with thousands of weapons that really don't have any major significant difference in the context of an RPG.  Do people playing an RPG really sit and do ballistics calculations to capture realism?

Only Gleichman, so now is a good time to start ignoring his advice.

A Beretta 9mm can have burst mode, namely in the 93R version. A Walther 9mm does not.

There you have the meaningful difference.

Quote from: Phantom Black;566763A Beretta 9mm can have burst mode, namely in the 93R version. A Walther 9mm does not.

There you have the meaningful difference.

I was talking more about the 92F and PPS.  Most of those things gleichman mentioned are pretty insignificant in the context of an rpg.  So what if one has 1200 fps and the other 1150?  How are you going to measure that difference in terms of a game mechanic.  Who cares if accuracy at 50m is less than an inch difference?  How are you going to account for that in an rpg.

Remember, we're not just talking about coming up with rules for just a few handguns.  You have to have rules for every gun, so in that context, if you have a modifier for every 50 fps muzzle velocity, you're going to end up with a ton of them since it can vary from 400fps to 3000fps, depending if you're talking about a small pistol to a large rifle.  And if you're going to create a modifier or 1/2" difference at 50m, what modifiers are you going to have for distances of 25m, 50m, 100m, 150m, 300m, 500m, 750m, and 1000m for pistols, submachine guns, assault rifles, hunting rifles, smooth bore, bullpup design, etc.  And then have all of those duplicated for each type of ammunition used, and then duplicate them all again in regards to damage due to bullet velocity and penetrating power at various ranges.  Nightmare.

My point is that if you really wanted to model reality to the point gleichman is suggesting, you'd have probably 100 pages of just charts.  I'm willing to bet most gamers don't want that mess.  Heck, with just my 1 page of charts, we already had someone say it was too complicated.

That's why I think it's a bad idea to break it down into that level of detail where you have mechanical rules for the differences between a 9mm PPS and a 92f.  Just do like I have it, where you can have your burst version just by selecting PC-H2.

Quote from: Phantom Black;566763A Beretta 9mm can have burst mode, namely in the 93R version. A Walther 9mm does not.

There you have the meaningful difference.

I think that the point of that sort of thing is being missed though.  What he's trying to avoid is having huge, exhaustive lists of real-world weapons by building a system whereby, if the players want to have a Beretta 93R instead of an M9, they say:  I want to buy a PC-H2.  Then they can say "It's a Beretta 93R."  Or they can say "It's a Glock 18."  Or they can buy a few more options and say "It's a H&K VP70."

The more likely scenario is that the players scavenge through the ruins of a factory, pulling out odd parts and breaking machinery to get materials.  Then the tech-savvy member goes around the table finding out what people want in their guns, and tells the GM  "Ok.. Fargor wants a burst capable 9mm pistol, I'm going to put together a PC-H2 using the parts from that broken Beretta we found, and I'll use that laser pointer we found to put in a sight and a fold-down front grip, so it's going to be a PC-H2-SL/FG.  What's my modifier for the assembly roll?"

In the scope of the game that he's working on, the level of detail is such that he doesn't feel that it's needed to have every model of wondernine with essentially identical stats listed.  And even if he's modeling off real guns, as long as he has a simple system that allows the modeling to go well and takes into account the differences that can be portrayed in the game without over complicating things, any decent players or GM's will be perfectly capable of providing a myriad of differences between various weapons.

In the scope of the Walther PPS vs Beretta 92 discussion, I think that it's perfectly reasonable to say they're different weapons under his system too.  I've already mentioned that the Beretta 92 falls nicely into the PC-S2 category, So if you assume that's a baseline you have a PC-S2-00.  The Walther could be followed through one of two ways, either as a PC-S2-LC (half weight and compact, -1 to initiative) or as a PC-S1-L (lightweight, but using a smaller caliber to differentiate the lower muzzle velocity of the 9mm from the Walther).

It really all depends on how you want to model the guns in the system.  My opinion is that it's a good system for players who don't feel the need to obsess over the ballistics and exact penetration depth, but who still want to be able to say "This is MY gun.  There's not a damn one just like it anywhere." and customize.

Because in the REAL world, it doesn't matter for shit if you're using an M14 or a M4 when you shoot a guy in the chest.  He falls down anyway.  So comparing the exact minutiae of 'Sight Radius and Follow Up shot' is a feeble exercise.  You train with what you want to use, and when you're properly trained, you'll be as good as you can be with that weapon.  Changing the weapon out is only going to make you suck, until you train back up to the same level as you were with the last piece of equipment.  Trying to incorporate every little aspect of a specific gun into the mechanics of a game system is weak design.  You just take it as far as it needs to go to be enjoyable.

Sanc isn't trying to create another Phoenix Command or Millenium's End here, and I think it's pretty disservicable to imply that he should be.  If you want that level of detail, go play those games.

Why is the cornershot option limited to pistols? It's not like aren't any real life counterexamples (http://www.cornershot.com/) from the past several decades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krummlauf).

Quote from: Panzerkraken;566789*snip*.

^ pretty much this.  Probably worded better than me.

Quote from: Premier;566803Why is the cornershot option limited to pistols? It's not like aren't any real life counterexamples (http://www.cornershot.com/) from the past several decades (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krummlauf).

I suppose it doesn't have to be, but here was my thinking.  

Barrel length and bullet size.

All of the corner shot weapons I knew about has barrel lengths around that of a pistol, and fired ammunition typically found in hand guns or submachine guns.  The WWII German tanker gun I don't consider a true corner shot weapon in the context of that enhancement, because it makes the gun worthless in all other scenarios.  The enhancement allows the weapon to fire around corners along with standard fire.

If that's wrong (and it looks like it is), it's easy enough to change.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566779I was talking more about the 92F and PPS.  Most of those things gleichman mentioned are pretty insignificant in the context of an rpg.

It's clear to me since you avoided any reply that you're not interesting in anything but your own (foolish and incorrect) settled thoughts on the matter.

I'll leave you to them.

Quote from: gleichman;566810It's clear to me since you avoided any reply that you're not interesting in anything but your own (foolish and incorrect) settled thoughts on the matter.

I'll leave you to them.

Ta daaa!  OCD rears it's hilarious head.

"5 FPS and 10% humidity can mean the difference between hitting a target and missing by 30yds!  You have to calculate for those or your game will be nothing but a hollow parody!"

EDIT:  I am relatively certain Gleichman is the authour of the Hybrid RPG.

Quote from: gleichman;566810It's clear to me since you avoided any reply that you're not interesting in anything but your own (foolish and incorrect) settled thoughts on the matter.

I'll leave you to them.

?  In my response, I referred to most everything you mentioned.   Just because I didn't quote you specifically (I didn't see the need since I was already typing a response) doesn't mean I didn't reply to you.

But OK.  Whatever.  But let me ask you this, if you are willing to continue the discussion.  How would you handle all of these modifiers (fps, recoil, etc) in the context of rpg mechanics?  What different modifiers would you apply for a PPS compared to a 92F, and then compared to an MP5?  AK-47?  Barret .50 cal?  .308 hunting rifle?  M60?  See where I'm going?

I understand what you're saying.  I really do.  But please understand from my perspective, when I started this years ago, I actually was using ballistics software to try to cover all the minutia.  And it became quickly apparent that it was just way too much.  When you're limited to 6 types of dice, breaking down differences into the thousandths place was something better suited for a video game where the computer does all the work.  Not an rpg where players roll dice.

As another thought, since I've been looking it over during the conversation, since you mentioned that the setting this will be used in is post-apocalyptic, maybe some specifics of how difficult a given option is to fabricate and/or install effectively into a firearm.  

For instance, it's easy to duct tape a laser pointer to your pistol, but it's not as simple to ensure that it's a) properly boresighted to be effective as a target designation device, and b) properly mounted to resist shaking loose under fire.

(I had my LA-5 come off during the demo run for a CQB course at one point, it's pretty embarrassing, even though we weren't using them at the time.. i made that damn screw extra tight the next time...)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566814?  In my response, I referred to most everything you mentioned.   Just because I didn't quote you specifically (I didn't see the need since I was already typing a response) doesn't mean I didn't reply to you.

You're have to forgive me, but I really took it as a dismissal. I know I'm rather hated in these parts and thus am a bit prone to read the worse in some matters.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566814But OK.  Whatever.  But let me ask you this, if you are willing to continue the discussion.  How would you handle all of these modifiers (fps, recoil, etc) in the context of rpg mechanics?  What different modifiers would you apply for a PPS compared to a 92F, and then compared to an MP5?  AK-47?  Barret .50 cal?  .308 hunting rifle?  M60?  See where I'm going?

There are three parts to this- first up is if you believe that there are in fact real world practical differences between the PPS and the 92F. You don't seem to believe that, and in that case the whole discussion is really moot, there is no need to represent that which you flatly reject.

Second, there's the question that if you do believe in the differences. Are you willing to pay the increase complexity (of some type even if just more possible choices in firearms) to reflect them in the game design? I think that the answer for you is also no, making the subject moot.


Lastly, it depends upon the system in question to a large degree. You are correct that in some there is little room for anything but overwhelmingly important differences (and sometimes not even those).

Thus my answer would be system dependent, ranging from the most general groupings to very detailed differences depending upon the game. To be honest, I don't know if your system for example can show the differences (actually I know from that charts in your post that it does indeed have some room for the most important of them) for the PPS and 92F. It is however my experience that people tend to underestimate what is and is not possible.

If you are familiar with Hero System, I have a firearm conversion method (replacing their rather dull and superhero genre based weapon list), and a chart answering all the questions you just posed for that system. But I'm uncertain that you'd find it useful. But I'm willing to go into it if you're interested.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;566825(I had my LA-5 come off during the demo run for a CQB course at one point, it's pretty embarrassing, even though we weren't using them at the time.. i made that damn screw extra tight the next time...)

Loctite (blue not red unless my memory fails) is your friend.

Quote from: gleichman;566831Loctite (blue not red unless my memory fails) is your friend.

I usually do, but they wanted all our longarms configured the same way, which was why my setscrew was only a little more than hand tight.  Uniformity is retarded sometimes.

Quote from: gleichman;566829There are three parts to this- first up is if you believe that there are in fact real world practical differences between the PPS and the 92F. You don't seem to believe that, and in that case the whole discussion is really moot, there is no need to represent that which you flatly reject.

I've already said that there are real world differences.

QuoteSecond, there's the question that if you do believe in the differences. Are you willing to pay the increase complexity (of some type even if just more possible choices in firearms) to reflect them in the game design? I think that the answer for you is also no, making the subject moot.

I believe the differences exist, just that in the context of an RPG, they are not significant enough to create a set of modifiers for the differences in muzzle velocity, recoil, etc for a PPS and 92F.

That's why I asked you how you would do it.  In a d20 system?  In a % system?  Use whatever generic mechanic you want.  I'd be very curious to see what kind of modifiers you establish between a PPS and 92F for things like muzzle velocity and recoil and range, and then to see how that extrapolates out when you start including every other weapon.

In my opinion, that level of minutia is better suited for a computer game, and not for tabletop role-playing.  Remember, you only have 6 types of dice to work with.  But that doesn't mean I'm not curious to see how you would implement it.  You seem very adamant in your position, so I'd like to know what your solution is.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566844I believe the differences exist, just that in the context of an RPG, they are not significant enough to create a set of modifiers for the differences in muzzle velocity, recoil, etc for a PPS and 92F.

That's why I asked you how you would do it.  In a d20 system?  In a % system?  Use whatever generic mechanic you want.

OK, but I'll make a new thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=23609) to kept yours clean and more on the purpose you intended it for.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566844In my opinion, that level of minutia is better suited for a computer game, and not for tabletop role-playing.  Remember, you only have 6 types of dice to work with.  But that doesn't mean I'm not curious to see how you would implement it.  You seem very adamant in your position, so I'd like to know what your solution is.

I agree, I love a good gunfight as much as the next man but there's a limited amount of complexity that can be meaningfully represented by dice in a useful way.

The differences between one 9mm semi auto pistol and another are entirely academic compared to the differences between a 9mm pistol and a fully automatic assault rifle or a shotgun, as far as they can be emulated on a 1-10, 1-6 or 1-20 scale. If your system is to include a wide variety of weapons, a lot of the finer details need to be smoothed out.

Aaanyway Sacrosanct its a good system but a little too complex for me. I lay out my weapons so:
pistols:
light
medium
heavy

rifles:
light
medium
heavy

Different brands might give a bonus to accuracy or range, different ammo to damage, etc.

Quote from: The Traveller;567241Aaanyway Sacrosanct its a good system but a little too complex for me. .

No worries.  One of the things that added complexity it the wide range of technology that is covered.  Depending on where you're at in the game world, technology ranges from early 1800s all the way to the 2200s or so.  So that weapon creation chart has to be inclusive to everything from a black powder long rifle to a heavy plasma machine gun.

If I kept it just to modern weapons, those charts would be about half the size they are now.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566779I was talking more about the 92F and PPS.  

No,  you weren't, otherwise you would've typed it down. We can't read your thoughts, we're not telepathic.

Quote from: Phantom Black;567269No,  you weren't, otherwise you would've typed it down. We can't read your thoughts, we're not telepathic.

Prior to your post I typed this:

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566638I won't disagree that there is a difference, but in the context of an rpg, what is the significant difference between a Walther 9mm PPS and a Beretta 9mm 92F?  

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566331This is an idea I've been tinkering with for years, and am leaning towards implementing it into my Bleeding Sky game.  The general gist is that rather than have a table of pre-made weapons, I'll have a mechanic in place where players create their own weapons.  This is primarily because there isn't any significant difference in a RPG between a Beretta 9mm and a Walther 9mm other than cosmetic, and it allows the players to have some customization. I will probably have a weapon chart anyway, just as an example and for quick-start purposes, but the focus will be on individual weapon design.

I had the same idea for my game, including having a sample list of weapons for those who don't want to make their own. Due to differing taste, my system is far simpler (though also far from complete). In short, the player chooses a range (Close, Reach, Short, Medium, Long) and damage rating to create custom weapons and then flavor them into whatever they want. (Precisely how they pay for them is yet to be decided.)

In my case the idea was to come up with a system that is simultaneously simple yet provides a wide variety of weapons to suit the players' whims. So yours is way too finicky for my taste, but certainly looks like it would get the job done for people who want that much detail. It also takes care of something I've thus far neglected: financial cost.

EDIT: Just realized that was a bit of a necro. Sorry about that.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;567273Prior to your post I typed this:

The Walther is shorter and built for concealed carry it has a shorter barrel length and a smaller magazine capacity (6,7 or 8 round compared to 10 - 32 for a Barretta 92F).

So in damage terms there is no difference (MV of 350 vs 380 m/s & same ammo) but there are a number of differences I might like to see in a game that wanted a gunsy feel.
I would go for giving the Walter an additional -1 to hit (on a d20) at long range owing to the reduced barrel length and an increase in concealment say a +1 (on a d20 or a -1 to an attempt to spot a concealed weapon). In addition to the extra magazine capaicty.

Quote from: jibbajibba;583967The Walther is shorter and built for concealed carry it has a shorter barrel length and a smaller magazine capacity (6,7 or 8 round compared to 10 - 32 for a Barretta 92F).

So in damage terms there is no difference (MV of 350 vs 380 m/s & same ammo) but there are a number of differences I might like to see in a game that wanted a gunsy feel.
I would go for giving the Walter an additional -1 to hit (on a d20) at long range owing to the reduced barrel length and an increase in concealment say a +1 (on a d20 or a -1 to an attempt to spot a concealed weapon). In addition to the extra magazine capaicty.

The effective range of a Walther PPK 9mm and a Beretta 92f 9mm is pretty much the same in the real world (25 yards eff, 50 y max).  Certainly not significant enough to warrant a modifier otherwise you end up with literally hundreds of extra modifiers you have to account for.  Magazine capacity is handled differently (you just buy what size you want since there are things like extended magazines).  And there really aren't any rules for spotting a concealed weapon.  That's just however the group wants to handle it on the fly since it's something that would hardly come up in game play, and lord knows there are enough values already assigned to weapons you don't need any more ;)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;583979The effective range of a Walther PPK 9mm and a Beretta 92f 9mm is pretty much the same in the real world (25 yards eff, 50 y max).  Certainly not significant enough to warrant a modifier otherwise you end up with literally hundreds of extra modifiers you have to account for.  Magazine capacity is handled differently (you just buy what size you want since there are things like extended magazines).  And there really aren't any rules for spotting a concealed weapon.  That's just however the group wants to handle it on the fly since it's something that would hardly come up in game play, and lord knows there are enough values already assigned to weapons you don't need any more ;)

Just suggesting some options based on real world differences between the actual weapons.

I would agree that effective range on both is 50m but the Walter has a barrel length of 3.2 inches compared to 4.9 for the Baretta. That is a substantial difference.

It just depends on how much crunch you want.

I think I may have mentioned previously that FGU games like Aftermath and Daredevils used a formula for computing the damage of a gun. Now basically they worked out the kinetic energy of the round (Mass x Speed squared) divided it by a constant and generated a number that led to dx + bonus.

I adopted this in a modern war game I made years ago but used bullet momentum because the text books I read on gun trauma damage seemed in indicate that it was the effectiveness in the transfer of momentum that did damage (The Butcher might want to comment if he is interested). With high speed rounds passing through the target and keeping a lot of their momentum so I used  momentum (Mass of bullet x velocity) to generate a damage score that was then converted to d10s + bonus. I used speed and ammo type to generate a penetration score V armour.
All this seems complex but its away from play so in play you just know a Colt M1911A1 does 2d10 +3 and has a penetration score of 1 (or whatever) how the score are generated really doesn't matter in actual play so it adds very little complexity to the actual game play itself.

There's really a lot of ways to handle it, and pretty much every one comes down to what you're going to include and what not to include because there are so many factors.

For example, a bullet of the same grain weight, at the same velocity, could have very different effects when hitting an unarmored fleshy target depending on how the bullet is made.  Is it a flat tip, or a pointed FJM?  Does it tumble?  What kind of gun was it fired from?

You'd have to have a really complex ruleset to factor in all of these variables, and it just isn't feasible to do so in a game where a big part of it isn't per-generated tables but player designed weapons.

If you want to see how I handled all these, I actually created a thread a while ago about my release of the playtest packet.  You can download it here (http://www.sacrosanctgames.com/).  It covers how I do weapon creation as well as accounting for most of the common ammunition types.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;584013If you want to see how I handled all these, I actually created a thread a while ago about my release of the playtest packet.  You can download it here (http://www.sacrosanctgames.com/).  It covers how I do weapon creation as well as accounting for most of the common ammunition types.

Very nice!  I was going to post a few lines about just taking a hundredth of the bullet weight in grains as a baseline for damage, with the modulus as a bonus.  Like AD&D monster hit dice, a bonus higher than the average for the die would push the rolls into the next category, so the bonus should be calculated against the average for the die.  So, a bullet weighing 148gr would be divided by 100 for 1.48.  If the base damage die is 1d10, .48 x 5.5 is about 2.6, dropping decimals would work best for a bonus of 2, giving 1d10+3 for a common bullet around .30 to .38 calibre.

I know you already have your system in place, so this isn't a suggestion for changes to yours, but as a baseline, would that be reasonable?  Assume mooks have between ten and fifteen hit points, the PCs have something like 10-30 hit points or something like that.  Those hit points seem a bit low for PCs in a marginally heroic kind of game.  Maybe 25-50 would work better.

Awesome layout on the document itself, too.

Quote from: StormBringer;584093Very nice!  I was going to post a few lines about just taking a hundredth of the bullet weight in grains as a baseline for damage, with the modulus as a bonus.  Like AD&D monster hit dice, a bonus higher than the average for the die would push the rolls into the next category, so the bonus should be calculated against the average for the die.  So, a bullet weighing 148gr would be divided by 100 for 1.48.  If the base damage die is 1d10, .48 x 5.5 is about 2.6, dropping decimals would work best for a bonus of 2, giving 1d10+3 for a common bullet around .30 to .38 calibre.

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I think I have what you're going at.  The only problem I can think of is when you run into a .22 LR bullet at 40 grains, and a .223 (5.56) at 55 grains.  We all know that a .223 will do exponentially more damage than a .22 LR.  When you start getting into different materials in bullet composition (lead is heavier than copper for instance), and velocity behind the bullet (a 100 grain bullet being fired from a rifle compared to a 100 grain bullet being fired from a pistol) it gets even more wonky.

I'm not saying my way is perfect by any means.  I think it just comes down to, "What do we want to happen in the game, and let's build our model to achieve that."

Quote from: Sacrosanct;584013There's really a lot of ways to handle it, and pretty much every one comes down to what you're going to include and what not to include because there are so many factors.

For example, a bullet of the same grain weight, at the same velocity, could have very different effects when hitting an unarmored fleshy target depending on how the bullet is made.  Is it a flat tip, or a pointed FJM?  Does it tumble?  What kind of gun was it fired from?

You'd have to have a really complex ruleset to factor in all of these variables, and it just isn't feasible to do so in a game where a big part of it isn't per-generated tables but player designed weapons.

If you want to see how I handled all these, I actually created a thread a while ago about my release of the playtest packet.  You can download it here (http://www.sacrosanctgames.com/).  It covers how I do weapon creation as well as accounting for most of the common ammunition types.

yeah agree with all that i will take a look at your dodad.
Tumbling rounds really are quick tricky to scientifically accomodate so a fudge like swapping range or accuracy for damage is about the best i came up with.

Quote from: jibbajibba;584117yeah agree with all that i will take a look at your dodad.
Tumbling rounds really are quick tricky to scientifically accomodate so a fudge like swapping range or accuracy for damage is about the best i came up with.

Hey, if it works for what you want, go for it.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;584098I think I have what you're going at.  The only problem I can think of is when you run into a .22 LR bullet at 40 grains, and a .223 (5.56) at 55 grains.  We all know that a .223 will do exponentially more damage than a .22 LR.  When you start getting into different materials in bullet composition (lead is heavier than copper for instance), and velocity behind the bullet (a 100 grain bullet being fired from a rifle compared to a 100 grain bullet being fired from a pistol) it gets even more wonky.

Oh, yeah, definitely.  One thing I had considered is for bullets less than 100gr would step down the damage die, so 75gr would be a d8, 50gr would be a d6, and 25gr would be a d4.  Like they guy said, you could be getting repeatedly shot by a .22 right now and just haven't noticed.  ;)

For the real bullets, though, I was considering some knock-on effects to simulate the other factors.  the .223 in question is something like 50gr or a bit more?  So the FMJ might give it a bonus to armour penetration or critical hits.  Plus, even at a d4 for damage, burst attacks should be able to put three or four rounds on a target.  Larger rounds, say a 350gr hollow point, might get a better chance for trauma effects like stun or getting knocked prone for a turn or two.  And then some trade-off effects for something like Mag-na-Porting a gun.  Reduces recoil penalties, but also decreases whatever velocity bonuses may have been present. (I know, they aren't supposed to affect that and stuff).

QuoteI'm not saying my way is perfect by any means.  I think it just comes down to, "What do we want to happen in the game, and let's build our model to achieve that."

Nah, I think you have a really good handle on what you are working on.  And I absolutely agree that modelling the rules to fit the desired outcome is a good idea.  I was looking for a more general set to work with; I had a similar idea with melee weapons, where each foot of length for a blade was worth a d6 in damage.  I haven't puzzled out the specifics yet.