Here's a notion:
Lau, the graceful Sand Calligrapher of the Khagan Desert Worlds of Solar Zhou uses the same movements to fight with his electrostaff as well as to stir healing Chi into his scorpion tail soup.
This seems entirely in keeping with Wuxia. So how to represent this mechanically and simply? I've been wrestling with this for days and I can't find a simple mechanism to represent this. I've even considered doing what legends of the wulin does: using a single stat (they call it Lake, as in the Rivers/Lakes theme) in place of several attributes (as was the case with Weapons of the GOds, its predecessor), and calling it Kungfu. But that doesn't sseem fitting: everyone will essentially have the same base stat, which doesn't make the game mechanics seem terribly interesting.
You can always fight with your best stat. That character fights with medicine or cooking or whatever.
Quote from: 1of3;540164You can always fight with your best stat. That character fights with medicine or cooking or whatever.
Which was my first thought, but then you have a problem: what if your best stat is fighting? Wht that means is that a warrior character, as opposed to a doctor, is worse off. The doctor can use healing, as is key skill, to heal and because it's his kung fu, he gets to fight with it. The warrior's key skill is already fighting and nothing else, so he's at a disadvantage.
Furthermore that only works so far: a hacker or a scholar can't really do this quite so much. Certainly a healer can use his medical kung fu to fight, but a computer expert? What does he do, throw keyboards at the opponent?
EDIT: Or instead of separate skills, heroes have a Kungfu score (like the Lake stat) and from that they may derive specialisations (the skills themselves, as they would have been). Kungfu is used for every situation: thus the Sand Calligrapher can fight with his Kungfu just as he can do calligraphy etc, even fly a starship. But because he excels at calligraphy, staff combat and brewing soup, he gets a bonus for those actions.
QuoteWhich was my first thought, but then you have a problem: what if your best stat is fighting?
There is no fighting stat. For a warrior-warrior use strategy, muscles, intimidate or whatever.
Since they're all kung fu experts (and why would you run something where they weren't) have them draw dice for their fighting techniques from pools they use for their other techniques. That sort of represents the flow of chi through their areas of expertise. You could use points for adds if you don't like dice pools.
The underpinning game strategy is resource management, and the flavor is the personal nature of high levels of kung fu.
As a long-time student of various forms of kung fu, I have always felt roleplaying games inadequate for this, but....
...try splitting up the statistics of Kung Fu into facets like:
1. Mi Zong Law Horn (knowledge of a style of Kung fu chosen for fighting*)
2. Chi Cultivation (for healing, vitality, and if it comes to it - soup)
3. Shen (the focus of mental energy, if you want to get this fine)
4. Pattern Form (the riggers of practice and dicipline**)
* Any other style could be here instead, making a difference in characters, from Northern Mantis Fist to Hung Gar.
** Roughly, "I do not fear the man who knows 10, 000 kicks, but the one who has practiced one kick 10, 000 times."
Maybe you to throw in something like "Legend" to represent renown in the martial world, and perhaps "Teaching Lineage" to qualify background. Then dividing characters up into origin of where they learned kung fu is, I think, always a clever plan - if they come from the Honan Shaolin Temple, Fukien Shaolin Temple, O-Mei Shan Temple, Wu Tang Temple, the 5 Southern Families, a Tibetan Lammasary, a Secular Begers Clan, a Peiking Opera Troop, the White Lotus Clan, the Poison Clan, etc.
Just brainstormin'
//Panjumanju
Quote from: stu2000;540209Since they're all kung fu experts (and why would you run something where they weren't) have them draw dice for their fighting techniques from pools they use for their other techniques. That sort of represents the flow of chi through their areas of expertise. You could use points for adds if you don't like dice pools.
The underpinning game strategy is resource management, and the flavor is the personal nature of high levels of kung fu.
I'm not sure how you envisage this working. How would these pools refresh? There would have to be some point during combat where that happens.
Give everyone some general "martial arts" rating that feeds into other skills (including attacking, cooking, etc).
To mix it up have Each character can select of type of kung fu and this causes the stat to feed differently into the skills.
I should point out by kung fu I don't just mean fighting. I mean 'excellence'; as in what the character does well - fighting is part of that. Hence the problem with a warrior character: if his kungfu is being awesome at fighting then a doctor that's awesome at healing - and can use that to fight (which is an example of the goal desired), he has an advantage because his kungfu does two things. Can you argue that the fighter can heal with his fighting skill? How, and if so, there's not much point having skills so it ends up becoming rather contradictory.
The single Kungfu stat was basically that - giving them a martial arts score that feeds into what they do well. But the problem is that if everyone has the same, single, score, then what's the point of having it? It becomes a zero sum affair really. That's the problem with that approach.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;540232I should point out by kung fu I don't just mean fighting. I mean 'excellence'; as in what the character does well - fighting is part of that. Hence the problem with a warrior character: if his kungfu is being awesome at fighting then a doctor that's awesome at healing - and can use that to fight (which is an example of the goal desired), he has an advantage because his kungfu does two things. Can you argue that the fighter can heal with his fighting skill? How, and if so, there's not much point having skills so it ends up becoming rather contradictory.
The single Kungfu stat was basically that - giving them a martial arts score that feeds into what they do well. But the problem is that if everyone has the same, single, score, then what's the point of having it? It becomes a zero sum affair really. That's the problem with that approach.
That is why you have different kinds of kung fu. For example you could have a soft defensive style that feeds into your skills under certain conditions (perhaps only when something is being done to you). That is just an example, and admittedly not a good one. But the point is, different style that feed in under different conditions (you could even have scores in each one).
The Convergence Point Solution is that in addition to Martial Art or Science Medicine (or craft cooking), you get a Limited Power Area of Expression with the trait "Technique". (that same power AoE can be used for Chi abilities areas).
Technique is a power list that has a lot of aspect pluses, zeroing of negative mods, and skill focus abilities, (as well as Dam Mod, Resist Mod, and initiative bonuses). It is their "technique" that gives them that "special ability".... their ability to do Kung Fu in their daily life and their daily life that is Kung Fu.
So I can fight and augment it with technique. I can cook and augment it with technique.
There is a variation in the Fist of Justice Supplement (which has never seen light of day) which allows for Metaphysical to be a prime attribute for the MA AoE and technique power lists can be attached to the Martial Arts Area of Expression. Thus your prowess with your Martial Arts allows for improved abilities in all things.
I'm not looking to get caught up in wushu styles. In terms of an rpg I actually think that's getting caught up in the details. Let the players decide how their characters fight, let them describe the style as they please.
A kungfu mechanic could be far too complex: playing numbers and techniques I think would be rules for their own sake.
Quote from: MoonHunter;540248The Convergence Point Solution is that in addition to Martial Art or Science Medicine (or craft cooking), you get a Limited Power Area of Expression with the trait "Technique". (that same power AoE can be used for Chi abilities areas).
Technique is a power list that has a lot of aspect pluses, zeroing of negative mods, and skill focus abilities, (as well as Dam Mod, Resist Mod, and initiative bonuses). It is their "technique" that gives them that "special ability".... their ability to do Kung Fu in their daily life and their daily life that is Kung Fu.
So I can fight and augment it with technique. I can cook and augment it with technique.
There is a variation in the Fist of Justice Supplement (which has never seen light of day) which allows for Metaphysical to be a prime attribute for the MA AoE and technique power lists can be attached to the Martial Arts Area of Expression. Thus your prowess with your Martial Arts allows for improved abilities in all things.
Sorry, I'm not really following this.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;540251I'm not looking to get caught up in wushu styles. In terms of an rpg I actually think that's getting caught up in the details. Let the players decide how their characters fight, let them describe the style as they please.
A kungfu mechanic could be far too complex: playing numbers and techniques I think would be rules for their own sake.
I only suggested the styles because you said a single Kung Fu rating wouldn't yield enough variety. But if it is all down to how the players flavor the underlying mechanic, then I would just go with the one Kung Fu stat that feeds into the skills.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;540226I'm not sure how you envisage this working. How would these pools refresh? There would have to be some point during combat where that happens.
Every round, maybe?
Every round, you have to make a decision about how to distribute your chi pool to fuel attacks, defenses, special effects, maybe even stance or positioning for the next round--stuff like that.
The chi pool itself should be fed by a basic amount that the character buys (or rolls) at character generation. Depending on how detailed you want to get, the character could further benefit from sleeping well, eating well, observing beneficial Feng Shui, and so forth. If you want to use those, you should assess the chi pool every morning or so.
In my head, there aren't a large number of these, but the more you add, the more flavor you bring.
You could even have a system for overarching environmental influences using the I Ching. All kinds of stuff. Keep it simple and flavorful. Like dim sum.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;540255then I would just go with the one Kung Fu stat that feeds into the skills.
That's the problem: coming up with how it does this in a meaningful way.
Quote from: stu2000;540379Every round, maybe?
Every round, you have to make a decision about how to distribute your chi pool to fuel attacks, defenses, special effects, maybe even stance or positioning for the next round--stuff like that.
The chi pool itself should be fed by a basic amount that the character buys (or rolls) at character generation. Depending on how detailed you want to get, the character could further benefit from sleeping well, eating well, observing beneficial Feng Shui, and so forth. If you want to use those, you should assess the chi pool every morning or so.
In my head, there aren't a large number of these, but the more you add, the more flavor you bring.
You could even have a system for overarching environmental influences using the I Ching. All kinds of stuff. Keep it simple and flavorful. Like dim sum.
Well, now we're getting into the kind of territory Weapons of the Gods/Legends of the Wulin occupies: resource management, which can get very complex very quickly. I'm not unconvinced by the idea, but equally I'm not convinced.
So really this then becomes a round by round system where the player distributes his Kungfu score to whatever actions. I don't know. It's also not just about fighting, and having to pick a stance, for example, for every action is going to get complex.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;540396Well, now we're getting into the kind of territory Weapons of the Gods/Legends of the Wulin occupies: resource management, which can get very complex very quickly. I'm not unconvinced by the idea, but equally I'm not convinced.
So really this then becomes a round by round system where the player distributes his Kungfu score to whatever actions. I don't know. It's also not just about fighting, and having to pick a stance, for example, for every action is going to get complex.
Unquestionably, this can get more complex than fun--your citation is a good example. Took me forever to figure out how to play WotG.
But if you were to use a Tunnels and Trolls-ish system, with all mechanical actions divided into say, combat, movement, and stunts (which could include the use of their Talents, since that's what serves for skills in T&T)--you could distribute a number of dice equal to your level as a martial artist (representing the Chi you can control) to supplement the dice you would roll each round to resolve those kinds of actions. That would be super simple, would add some chi flavor, and would give the PCs an atypical advantage over the low-level mooks with their pitiful kung fu.
Been a loooooooooooooooong time since I owned any T&T books. Was good stuff as I recall. I'll have to google the system though. Maybe some ideas there. Thanks.
I'm thinking perhaps the best thing would be just to use Kungfu to refer to a bunch of specific abilities/bonuses that particular character types get. Such as "Kungfu of the Wandering Doctor" - a bunch of bonuses to healing and a means to use Healing offsneively. This seems easier than trying to fiddle numbers or emulating other systems that are based on a purely fantasy (ie simpler) setting.
One thing i've noticed, in trying to accomodate a scifi setting, is that there are a great deal more variables. Reading through Flying Swordsman/Dragonfist it seems that something like that would be much harder. For instance you can't just restrict people to being warriors/wizards/rogues/etc, you have to factor in not just fighting, but guns, heavy weapons, vehicles, starships, vehicle weapons, starship weapons, and everything else. So using a basic list of Skills to cover these things along with all the other activities a character might perform, such as healing, must be easier, if not terribly revolutionary.
It works for Warring States.