Just thought I'd start this to see if we can avoid derailing of the other thread... ?
It is well designed, and no, it can't do everything.
If we are referring what's in the d20 SRD, then IMO no and no.
It has a well designed core system but the d20 SRD implementation suffocates it with crud subsystems and poorly designed ideas. It could be (and has been) much more refined.
The d20 SRD only works well for D&D, which it was designed for. It can be (and has been) adapted to suit other settings though, as can any system.
Really it depends on what we're calling D20. Is M&M still D20?
Quote from: beejazz;582334Really it depends on what we're calling D20. Is M&M still D20?
It wasn't covered under the d20 Licence but the OGL Licence.
FWIW FATE also includes the OGL Licence, so if we are going that broad I would say we are talking less about a system and more about a concept :)
If you mean D20 as in the dice mechanic then that's just the Random Number Generator. It can do pretty much what you'd imagine. It means that things at low levels are pretty wacky, depending more on the dice than bonuses. Depending on how you build the framework around this core it can be pretty much aimed in any direction you want it to. If you're binding yourself to a certain D20 thing that is already made then... it gets more complicated. I'd say you can get just about any setting with any dice mechanic you decide to use. I can't fathom a reason why you couldn't.
I meant "The D20 System" i.e. the basic system behind 3E D&D/D20 Modern and so on with its six stats, Armour Class, levels and all that jazz...yeah I can't imagine a reason why a d20-using system that wasn't "the" d20 system couldn't be used for any setting (agree with MGuy).
I would probably consider 1E M&M to be d20 system still (even if its just 'OGL' legally speaking) although by 2E/3E it sort of crosses the line into becoming its own thing, with 8 stats and whatnot.
Quote from: Benoist;582323It is well designed, and no, it can't do everything.
This. But it can do alot, see D20 CoC.
Quote from: Skywalker;582329If we are referring what's in the d20 SRD, then IMO no and no.
It has a well designed core system but the d20 SRD implementation suffocates it with crud subsystems and poorly designed ideas. It could be (and has been) much more refined.
The d20 SRD only works well for D&D, which it was designed for. It can be (and has been) adapted to suit other settings though, as can any system.
Of course, it's the Vancian casting that causes most of the problems. CoC spells are difficult to find, perilous to read, and dangerous to use. Hardly the setting for "Four 1st level spells, two 2nd level spells and one 3rd level spell per day".
Additionally, Powered Space Marine Armour can't reasonably have an AC bonus of less than about +40, and a Vulcan Minigun bolted to a HumVee should be doing 10d10 damage per burst. So the numbers don't work out well with straight d20 stuff. I have been reading the d20 Modern and Future SRDs lately, and they seem to understand that. Mutations is an add-on system that doesn't really correspond to anything in the original d20, and the Starship combat system borrows a few elements from standard combat, but the rest is entirely made up.
The biggest change, of course, is that Modern and Future don't use actual money. Purchasing things is very similar to the old MSH fashion of rolling your Wealth rating against a DC for the item to be purchased. And there isn't an easy way to convert that DC into a raw number, so good luck adding laser guns or power armour to your D&D game. And those numbers are odd to begin with. A Firefly class bulk transport has a Base Purchase DC of 60 for 32,000 tons(!) of ship, while the 28,800 ton Cruiser has a DC of 64, although it is more heavily armed. If you can get your Wealth level up to 60, I am pretty sure mugging someone to get their Purchase DC 7 item isn't terribly difficult. Of course, you can always Take 10 or Take 20 and just accept the 1 point hit to your Wealth level.
It seems like they both have reasonably decent systems in place to deal with the genre conventions. Neither of them is really on the market anymore, so perception or not, even a heavily modified d20 system didn't seem to succeed in the market. Argue about the robustness of the d20 system all you want, the fact remains that even WotC didn't try to use the straight d20 rules for other genres.
I understand
why WotC tried to keep the system as intact as possible instead of taking the Star Frontiers/Marvel Super Heroes route of the Elder Days; however, I think it rather clearly points out that it wasn't really the best design choice.
tl;dr
Quote from: Benoist;582323It is well designed, and no, it can't do everything.
I liked True20 and C&C, but I don't enjoy Pathfinder. Which is the D20 system?
If we are just talking the SRD, then no its not well designed. It's boring fucking shite whose only setting is "wank ass rules lawyering".
Quote from: StormBringer;582356Of course, it's the Vancian casting that causes most of the problems. CoC spells are difficult to find, perilous to read, and dangerous to use. Hardly the setting for "Four 1st level spells, two 2nd level spells and one 3rd level spell per day".
Additionally, Powered Space Marine Armour can't reasonably have an AC bonus of less than about +40, and a Vulcan Minigun bolted to a HumVee should be doing 10d10 damage per burst. So the numbers don't work out well with straight d20 stuff. I have been reading the d20 Modern and Future SRDs lately, and they seem to understand that. Mutations is an add-on system that doesn't really correspond to anything in the original d20, and the Starship combat system borrows a few elements from standard combat, but the rest is entirely made up.
The biggest change, of course, is that Modern and Future don't use actual money. Purchasing things is very similar to the old MSH fashion of rolling your Wealth rating against a DC for the item to be purchased. And there isn't an easy way to convert that DC into a raw number, so good luck adding laser guns or power armour to your D&D game. And those numbers are odd to begin with. A Firefly class bulk transport has a Base Purchase DC of 60 for 32,000 tons(!) of ship, while the 28,800 ton Cruiser has a DC of 64, although it is more heavily armed. If you can get your Wealth level up to 60, I am pretty sure mugging someone to get their Purchase DC 7 item isn't terribly difficult. Of course, you can always Take 10 or Take 20 and just accept the 1 point hit to your Wealth level.
It seems like they both have reasonably decent systems in place to deal with the genre conventions. Neither of them is really on the market anymore, so perception or not, even a heavily modified d20 system didn't seem to succeed in the market. Argue about the robustness of the d20 system all you want, the fact remains that even WotC didn't try to use the straight d20 rules for other genres.
"Argue about the robustness of the d20 system all you want"
.... It is obvious you will refuse to see my point, because you are so locked in your own opinion.
I'll just leave this here anyway:
Of course some things has to be adapted between different games, even if one continues using the same system. It isn't wierder that one setting uses much magic and another uses none.
Of course that CoC-style horror doesn't have "Four 1st level spells, two 2nd level spells and one 3rd level spell per day", CoC do not have mages, they have scholars, dabblers and cultists, that may have come across an amount of working spells, and the spells rather has effects that causes fatigue, wounds and/or mental damage when cast, to the caster.
So it is more like a gamble "how much can you sustain?".
These changes should not affect the core system the slightest.
"A Firefly class bulk transport has a Base Purchase DC of 60 for 32,000 tons(!) of ship,"
I expect something like that to be hired or lended from a larger organization, rather than owned, normally.
"Powered Space Marine Armour can't reasonably have an AC bonus of less than about +40, and a Vulcan Minigun bolted to a HumVee should be doing 10d10 damage per burst."
Since you find something wrong with that, then please tell me what you find wrong, because i clearly don't.
I think it can work for a lot of different settings, provided enough alterations are made for enre andexpectations. You can't just port 3E into stuff, it needs some rework. CoC d20 did a pretty good job (i was a lot more impressed with iy than i thought i would be).
The issue for d20 i think is for some games, levelsmight feel out of place and those are hard to extract from the d20 system. I also think it became so ubiquitous that people were craving more variety during the d20 boom (i likedd20 just fine but really missed having so many alternative systems available). Also because anyone could slap d20 on anything, and there was a lot of low quality d20 materisl put out by different companies, i think that fed the impression that the system couldn't accomodate as much.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;582342I meant "The D20 System" i.e. the basic system behind 3E D&D/D20 Modern and so on with its six stats, Armour Class, levels and all that jazz...yeah I can't imagine a reason why a d20-using system that wasn't "the" d20 system couldn't be used for any setting (agree with MGuy).
I would probably consider 1E M&M to be d20 system still (even if its just 'OGL' legally speaking) although by 2E/3E it sort of crosses the line into becoming its own thing, with 8 stats and whatnot.
Nothing against the design or product, but no game system does everything well. d20 is robust and matches up with a pretty broad amount of stuff decently compared to other rulesets, but in my mind, this means matching up with maybe 5-10% of setting compared to 2-3%.
Vreeg's first Rule of Setting Design
"Make sure the ruleset you are using matches the setting and game you want to play, because the setting and game WILL eventually match the system."
Corrollary to Vreeg's First Rule.
"The amount of rules given to a certain dimension of an RPG partially dictate what kind of game the rules will create. If 80% of the rulebook is written about thieves and the underworld, the game that those rules are meant for is thieving and skullduggery. If 80% of the mechanics are based on combat, the game will revolve around combat.I believe that systems and setting/game matching is a much harder thing to do than most players and GMs think.
Quote from: Benoist;582323It is well designed, and no, it can't do everything.
Thats pretty much it in a nutshell. :)
I could run an awful lot of things with d20 Modern, my favorite iteration of d20 games.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;582543I could run an awful lot of things with d20 Modern, my favorite iteration of d20 games.
I rather liked the d20 Modern book but always found it hard getting players for it. A lot of d20 players in my experience are the last ones to be interested in a modern setting.
A cleaned up second edition of d20 Modern would have been fantastic. I particularly liked the d20 Apocalypse and d20 Future books.
A lot depends on "which" version of D20 you mean. True 20 was decent, and solid, and can do more than straight D&D. While M&M 1E was even better at that for the most part.
I wish M&M 2e was more like a refined 1e. 2e just seemed to make my eyes glaze over half the time. 1e I loved from the time I first saw it in the store.
Quote from: Endless Flight;582553I wish M&M 2e was more like a refined 1e. 2e just seemed to make my eyes glaze over half the time. 1e I loved from the time I first saw it in the store.
Oh, I know. I tried so hard to keep them from making it overly complex, but was drowned out during playtests--partly by being busy with life, partly because it was full of ex-Hero fans. (No, not all of them, but enough of them were there who basically wanted Hero like subsystems in the game.)
d20 has all of the problems that D&D has basically always had. The extremely abstract HP and AC mechanics, with armor making you harder to hit, et cetera. The level mechanics which result in level 2 characters being very near twice as powerful as level 1 characters.
If none of that stuff is detrimental to the kind of game you are trying to build I don't see where d20 probably wouldn't work for you.
I do think some games could probably benefit from a much shallower curve in PC advancement, and less abstract combat resolution though. If I were to do a "Fantasy Heartbreaker", or similarly abstract action/adventure oriented game I'd almost assuredly draw heavy inspiration from d20 though.
I'm sure there are games that use d20 that aren't primarily action/adventure oriented that are good (I've got d20 CoC, but have never played it) but can't imagine that they couldn't have been better designed from the ground up.