Are games that involve the Nazis inherently problematic?
I ask this because we're about to release the aformentioned mini-setting / adventure and we've taken extra precautions with the product trying to ensure that we don't step on anyone's toes.
The Nazis are not glorified in any way. We stay away from anything that could be related to the holocaust. Yet, there are swastikas (albeit, most of them are painted over with a big, red "V"). And the bad-guys are Nazis.
(Which means we probably can't sell the product in Germany...)
But should we be overly concerned with Nazi bad-guys in our mini-setting?
In a word: no.
A few bleeding hearts who love to get offended might not buy the product, but who cares. Nazis make awesome bad guys.
We don't portray them in any light other than "aggressive, evil, invaders".
And there's lots of "dead Nazi pron" to ensure that everyone knows we're in it to kill the Nazis.
The NPCs are all nasty, from a closeted, sociopathic serial killer secretary to the guy who has a pact with a demon and murders people to satisfy the lusts of the demonic entity. There is just nothing likeable about these Nazis, at all!
Plus, it's so much fun to shoot Nazi bad-guys with their own Gauss needler technology... ;)
Quote from: Ben Rogers;713960Are games that involve the Nazis inherently problematic?
No.
Quote from: Ben Rogers;713960The Nazis are not glorified in any way. We stay away from anything that could be related to the holocaust. Yet, there are swastikas (albeit, most of them are painted over with a big, red "V"). And the bad-guys are Nazis.
Quote from: Ben Rogers;713965We don't portray them in any light other than "aggressive, evil, invaders".
And there's lots of "dead Nazi pron" to ensure that everyone knows we're in it to kill the Nazis.
The NPCs are all nasty, from a closeted, sociopathic serial killer secretary to the guy who has a pact with a demon and murders people to satisfy the lusts of the demonic entity. There is just nothing likeable about these Nazis, at all!
(Which means we probably can't sell the product in Germany...)
So stupid, one-dimensional, smokes-cigarette-weirdly, blonde orcs, unable to pronounce the letter "w", in uniforms with nazi insignia.
Gotcha. Why?
Wherein Ben's latest stunt is to try to get people to tell him about good, likeable, non-stereotypical nazis.
Bonus points for the crack about Germany where it's illegal to glorify the nazi regime.
Problematic only in that you won't be able to sell the game in any country that's banned representations of the swastika, like Germany. Overall to a North American audience? Nazis have been playing a role as default supervillains in Comicbooks for nearly a century. Ditto Hollywood.
Quote from: The Traveller;713978Wherein Ben's latest stunt is to try to get people to tell him about good, likeable, non-stereotypical nazis.
Bonus points for the crack about Germany where it's illegal to glorify the nazi regime.
I think his stunts are always stealth ways of promoting his products...
So far I've had only one person express concern about the content - and they only expressed it as "potential concern" that "someone might be bothered by the swastikas".
Quote from: barageiSo stupid, one-dimensional, smokes-cigarette-weirdly, blonde orcs, unable to pronounce the letter "w", in uniforms with nazi insignia.
Gotcha. Why?
I didn't write up the NPCs, but they are actually quite detailed and multi-dimensional. No orcs. No pictures of blondes in Nazi gear. No mispronunciations of "w" either.
Quote from: JeremyRI think his stunts are always stealth ways of promoting his products...
One nice thing about the negativity and cynicism is that if this
was an attempt at promoting a product, then many thanks to Jeremy and Traveller for bumping the thread back to the top. ;)
(And, for the record, I had a very long discussion on an industry insider forum about this earlier and wanted to get a more "consumer" perspective via this thread.)
I wish I had half the strategic and guerrilla marketing chops Jeremy and Traveller think I have...
Here's the cover art, if you're curious...
(http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae345/SellStuff_2009/Iof4RCover.png)
Why are Nazis so popular as bad guys? Because they are cool. Just ask Spielberg. That dude spanks it to Nazis.
Why so cool? They had badass uniforms with lightning bolts and silver skulls and leather trenchcoats. Hollywoodized, their evil is perfect to make them disposable in droves without the audience ever stopping to think about their destruction. And unlike cowboys vs. Injuns or rebels vs. redcoats, there is no need to humanize or understanding the rank and file of the Nazis thus making them the gold standard in guiltless kills.
Quote from: baragei;713973So stupid, one-dimensional, smokes-cigarette-weirdly, blonde orcs, unable to pronounce the letter "w", in uniforms with nazi insignia.
Gotcha. Why?
That's like asking why the amplifier goes up to 11.
JG
Quote from: SpinachatWhy so cool? They had badass uniforms with lightning bolts and silver skulls and leather trenchcoats. Hollywoodized, their evil is perfect to make them disposable in droves without the audience ever stopping to think about their destruction. And unlike cowboys vs. Injuns or rebels vs. redcoats, there is no need to humanize or understanding the rank and file of the Nazis thus making them the gold standard in guiltless kills.
Also the whole occult angle - the weird science and hollow earth stuff and eugenics and all that crazy mythology - makes them perfect as vaguely "eldritch" villains out for powerful artifacts and the like.
Quote from: Ben Rogers;714044I wish I had half the strategic and guerrilla marketing chops Jeremy and Traveller think I have...
You don't, that was the point.
Don't think this belongs in the general forum. Moving it to Design, Development and Gameplay.
We have released Invasion of the Fourth Reich
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=28438
The funny thing, is that the "Fourth Reich", could be considered modern Germany.
Quote from: dragoner;714312The funny thing, is that the "Fourth Reich", could be considered modern Germany.
I was about to touch on that. If they're Nazis from an alternate timeline in which they didn't lose WWII, wouldn't that make them the
Third Reich?
Quote from: The Butcher;714320I was about to touch on that. If they're Nazis from an alternate timeline in which they didn't lose WWII, wouldn't that make them the Third Reich?
That's accounted for in the backstory. When Hitler dies (of old age) his successor declares it the Fourth Reich upon his assumption of power.
Quote from: Ben Rogers;714330That's accounted for in the backstory. When Hitler dies (of old age) his successor declares it the Fourth Reich upon his assumption of power.
Touché. Good job. :)
Quote from: dragoner;714312The funny thing, is that the "Fourth Reich", could be considered modern Germany.
Doesn't US keep some forces there from back the Cold War times, just in case Zhe Germans realise that? ;)
Yes, in case Merkel grows a toothbrush mustache and ze Chermans begin to suddenly engage in some very silly walks ...
Quote from: The Butcher;714320I was about to touch on that. If they're Nazis from an alternate timeline in which they didn't lose WWII, wouldn't that make them the Third Reich?
I think it would be funny if the premise was like from the one Simpsons and the Soviets: "Aha! We were just fooling you, we never changed!"
Quote from: dragoner;714373Yes, in case Merkel grows a toothbrush mustache and ze Chermans begin to suddenly engage in some very silly walks ...
It's not the silly walks, it's the walks in the park that are worrisome.
So, do they attack from the moonbase?
Quote from: Rincewind1;714376It's not the silly walks, it's the walks in the park that are worrisome.
So, do they attack from the moonbase?
Ha! Iron Moon! That and a pincer from the Antarctic for a world wide kessel.
Honestly, that cover would make me, as a customer buying blind, pass the book right over. It doesn't suggest any kind of fight against the nazi supertroopers, just seems to glorify them. But Im pickier than most so I would take my opinion with a grain of salt. Im sure it looks kewl to most teenage boys.
Quote from: dragoner;714386Ha! Iron Moon! That and a pincer from the Antarctic for a world wide kessel.
Surely you mean der Eisermond. Or probably Bismarck II ;).
Admittedly I can totally imagine some Dieselpunk "Death Star", a floating aircraft carrier fashioned from steel & copper, filled to the brim with artillery, commanded by the Furher, or the right hand of thereof..
Quote from: Rincewind1;714388Surely you mean der Eisermond. Or probably Bismarck II ;).
Admittedly I can totally imagine some Dieselpunk "Death Star", a floating aircraft carrier fashioned from steel & copper, filled to the brim with artillery, commanded by the brain of.
Heh. Hitler ends up being The Emprah of 40k
Quote from: TristramEvans;714390Heh. Hitler ends up being The Emprah of 40k
Yeah, something that'd be quite at home in 40k ;). Except less spikey, a horror of floating, twisted metal. I wasn't thinking as much of Hitler's brain as that mad scientist they unfreeze in Hellboy :D.
Quote from: Rincewind1;714391Yeah, something that'd be quite at home in 40k ;). Except less spikey, a horror of floating, twisted metal. I wasn't thinking as much of Hitler's brain as that mad scientist they unfreeze in Hellboy :D.
Oh yeah, Von Klempt. Heh, he made nazi cyborg gorillas as a hobby, Im guessing his space marines
TM would look a lot different.
Quote from: Rincewind1;714388Surely you mean der Eisermond. Or probably Bismarck II ;).
Admittedly I can totally imagine some Dieselpunk "Death Star", a floating aircraft carrier fashioned from steel & copper, filled to the brim with artillery, commanded by the Furher, or the right hand of thereof..
Actually I meant Iron Sky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPl9BFnN-Bw
They also did a Star Trek parody.
Quote from: dragoner;714312The funny thing, is that the "Fourth Reich", could be considered modern Germany.
While it is a proper term in the language, for some reason Germans don't like using the word "Reich" anymore. ;)
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;714414While it is a proper term in the language, for some reason Germans don't like using the word "Reich" anymore. ;)
JG
Yeah; though a game where the modern Germans are the enemies could be interesting, or humorous.
Just as an FYI, if Invasion of the Fourth Reich (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/123372/Invasion-of-the-Fourth-Reich) turns out to be popular, we're planning a larger expansion, perhaps even to the point of making it a "full setting" - with adventures, campaigns and additional supplements.
It's really a "how well does this thing sell and how popular is it?" situation.
Our 2014 release calendar includes 4 full settings (Promised Sands (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1299187159/promised-sands-for-sixcess-core), ElfWood (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1299187159/elfwood-for-sixcess-core), Extraordinary Voyages (http://www.harshrealities.org), Mytharia (http://www.harshrealities.org)) at least 3 mini-settings (Invasion of the 4th Reich (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/123372/Invasion-of-the-Fourth-Reich), No Man's Land, FunkPunk) and a number of other supplements (adventures, artwork, potentially some fiction). All of them use Sixcess Core (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/117010/Sixcess-Core) as their baseline system.
It's a pretty heavy release schedule, considering the three primary developers all have day jobs (sometimes more than one) and families in addition to the work of putting out gaming material and convention schedules.
With that being said, we're looking at 2015 and trying to ascertain what is the most popular of our products to expand.
We've had quite a few requests for expansion of Invasion of the Fourth Reich (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/123372/Invasion-of-the-Fourth-Reich) already. Of course, it's our first general release, since Promised Sands (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1299187159/promised-sands-for-sixcess-core) is due for general release in March and ElfWood (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1299187159/elfwood-for-sixcess-core) is due for general release in June.
I've really enjoyed reading the various posts on this topic. I've used Invasion of the Fourth Reich (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/123372/Invasion-of-the-Fourth-Reich) and the whole dimension hopping motif in various ways throughout the years and my players have always loved it.
Quote from: dragoner;714419Yeah; though a game where the modern Germans are the enemies could be interesting, or humorous.
A game about fighting Kurds? A touchy subject somewhat.
(badum - tssssh)
I wanted to say thank you to everyone who posted and discussed this thread, which made it more active and more read.
It's been a week since we posted Invasion of the Fourth Reich (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/123372/Invasion-of-the-Fourth-Reich) and our sales to cost ratio has passed the 20% mark (meaning that in one week, we have brought in 20% of our expenses to produce the product).
I have no way of knowing how much of that is due to this thread vs any of our direct promotion, but I have to assume it has helped. My thanks to you all. :)
If I could, perhaps, direct your attention to our ElfWood Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1299187159/elfwood-for-sixcess-core), we have some other interesting material on the way... :)
Thanks again! :)
Quote from: Rincewind1;714613A game about fighting Kurds?
American McGee's Miss Muffet!
Quote from: Ben Rogers;714495Our 2014 release calendar includes 4 full blah blah blah...
So this was not a thread, just an undisguised promotion.
I am cool with full blown song and dance promotion threads, but have the cajones to be honest about your intentions OR learn how to do stealth marketing instead of bait and switch. I respect sneaky stealth marketing, but bait and switch is crapass amateur hour.
Modsquad, can we send this thread to Adverts instead?
Quote from: Spinachcat;715701So this was not a thread, just an undisguised promotion.
It was a thread designed to generate discussion on the content of Fourth Reich.
I figured this was the best place to thank people for the results of the discussion.
Must everything that has mention of a product be relegated to adverts?
I truly do not understand the vehemence of some people's objection to "hey, we have a product you might be interested in..." showing up in a discussion.
As I skip over derailing comments about Kurds in this thread, how is that any different than you skipping over my thanking folks for their support?
Quote from: Ben Rogers;715813Must everything that has mention of a product be relegated to adverts?
I truly do not understand the vehemence of some people's objection to "hey, we have a product you might be interested in..." showing up in a discussion.
Dude, this and your Elfwood thread have the same pattern: ask a question about some potentially problematic design aspect, when it's clear the product is not in development but already in the marketing phase and will not be changed. Then in this thread you don't just promote your entire line in your Dec 9 post, you link to the titular product
four times, man. I don't really know about search engine ranking, but cynical me wonders why you did that.
This is a shameless advert. It's not about design, development or gameplay. The irony is that I'm all for small publishers grabbing every free bit of promotion they can and reaching out to the community, but it's the denial that puts me off your product and colours my first impression of you and your company.
There, said it. Now that's done, good luck with your products, hope your sales trend continues.