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So, I was thinking, maybe we could start a How To Run series of threads, describing different ways to run specific genres. Some of the issues that could be discussed -

Your definition of the genre.

Systems/Games that fit the genre/your def

Actual pointers on how you run your games.

Resources that you have found helpful - films, books, movies, links etc

Personal Horror goes first :D

I'll post my take on it later.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RSo, I was thinking, maybe we could start a How To Run series of threads, describing different ways to run specific genres. Some of the issues that could be discussed -

Your definition of the genre.

Systems/Games that fit the genre/your def

Actual pointers on how you run your games.

Resources that you have found helpful - films, books, movies, links etc

Personal Horror goes first :D

I'll post my take on it later.

Regards,
David R

I think it's a good idea!

But... this is a genre I actually don't have a handle on... how is "personal" horror different from other kinds of horror?

I might be alone in not knowing the buzzword, but this exercise might be helped by providing a (short) straw-model definition of the genre.

Cheers,
-E.

Personal Horror

This is your life - The way how I frame PH is to make it all about escaping back to normality. Characters who were ambivalent or maybe even resentful of their mundane lives would be craving to get back to it, once the bad stuff happens. Most horror IMO is about the external threat that folks face...and they normaly face it as a collective. The horror is in your face. Most people who come across it would recognize it instantly.

In my take of PH, the threat is more internal. The horror is against the individual pc...the rest of the world is ignorant that anything horrific is happening. It's personal because the world is in fact against you. What the PC would want to do, is to get back to her regular life. That's how she wins.

Films, such as Polanski's Rosemary's Baby, Roeg's Don't Look Now and books such as Dan Simmon's Carrion Comfort are some of the sources I draw from.

The Uncool - Which is why I believe that PH should not be about the pc having cool powers and such. They should be normal average, unexceptional human beings. Which is why I never considered Vampire etc to be games of personal horror. The cool factor.

If you want the pcs to have some kind of power, than IMO the use of said power should be so horrific, the compulsion to use it so abhorent to the player, that it is no longer a question of cool. The pc should never know what the consequence of the power is before hand. He should discover it only after he uses it. And it should be so repulsive or it's consequence so detrimental to the safety of all he holds dear, that it's use should frighten him.

Watch Your Step - GMing PH games is a bitch. In an Unknown Armies campaign I ran some time back I discovered a few things. (Now, I don't think there are any true PH games out there - stuff like UA, Kult etc are good games, but I think the only way to run PH is for the gm and players to come up with their own stuff.)

1 .Remember the personal in Personal Horror : Although you can have a convenient framing devise to bring the whole group together, each character should have her own storyline. In the case of my UA campaign, the pcs discovered that they were all half sibblings, the product of a polygamist father. They each discovered their own personal storyline by way of a box they each received from their father on their birthdays. What was inside the box led them to their own personal hell. (Off course support and help came from their fellow pcs)

2. Take it up a notch further - and yeah it's unfair : Now if each PC has his own storyline, make sure that with each successive introduction of a new (different pc) storyline, the horror gets more creepy and down right horrific. Which is not to say that you start of lame and improve. Nope, you start of creepy and do your best to top your previous shocker. Now this is pretty difficult if you got numerous different storylines simmering at the same time...but like I said, it's a bitch.

3.Never explain, never apologize*: Yup, somethings don't need to be explained. If you have done your job right, they would not want an explanation. Ambiguity is your friend. When your players sign up for a session of PH, make sure you are upfront, that things could get pretty nasty. That you intend for things to get pretty nasty. Know your players. Know your limits.

*Okay, if an apology is warranted than by all means....

4.There is an Endgame : The most important issue. The players and you should tell them, that the campaign has a specific length. Now I know you think, that this takes away the suspense, but IME it heightens it. The players know that things are coming to an END. Also it's difficult, not to mention oppresive to sustain an atmosphere of dread for an indefinate period. Having a time limit, makes it easier on everyone.

Okay, all this seems pretty basic but if used right, is pretty damn effective IME.

(Edit. -E ,I don't know of an accepted definition either. Hopefully my post, does enough, to convey the kind of horror I'm talking about)

Regards,
David R

Quote2. Take it up a notch further - and yeah it's unfair : Now if each PC has his own storyline, make sure that with each successive introduction of a new (different pc) storyline, the horror gets more creepy and down right horrific. Which is not to say that you start of lame and improve. Nope, you start of creepy and do your best to top your previous shocker. Now this is pretty difficult if you got numerous different storylines simmering at the same time...but like I said, it's a bitch.

Please elaborate. I really can´t imagine what you actually are playing. What is  a shocker? What do the characters do all the time?

You can't threaten the players with the death of the PCs.  Death just means they roll up another one.  Firstly you have to make them care about their characters and then you threaten what their PC's care about - their loved ones, their goals etc.

For me, personal horror games revolve around the decisions that the players are willing to make for the PC's and their friends/family to survive.

I'll use YotZ for the mainstay, since that's what I am currently running:

A wolf-pack is inhabiting the only store of diesel fuel for fifty miles that hasn't been looted the ground. The PC's can go in and try to fight off the wolf-pack in hand to hand combat...

Or they can drop a brace of 4.2" VX mortar rounds on the site.

The PC's need food, water, and medical suppllies for an injured companion. The settlement refuses to trade any of those, and a recent sojourn into a city with the intent of gathering supplies has resulted in literally thousands of the Risen having followed the PC's.

They can either move on, and hope for the best, or take what they want from a group of peaceful people.


For me, personal horror revolves around discovering that for all of your prattling about the sanctity of life, you'd use nerve agent on small children or kill those who won't give you what you want.

Quote from: SettembriniPlease elaborate. I really can´t imagine what you actually are playing. What is  a shocker? What do the characters do all the time?

Sett, in most of my (and other folks I guess) games, each pc has their own storylines which involves their character goals as indivduals and not their goals as part of a group.

To me, this is even more important in PH campaigns. When I run these kinds of games, there is a convenient framing devise which roughly holds all the pcs as a group but what drives the campaign are their invidual storylines. When a player's arc is in play, the other pcs kind of take the role as supporting characters - unless there are multiple arcs going on at the same time - and each arc builds up to a horrific realization/ending.

This last part is what I meant by "shocker" Each ending for each specific pc should be more horrific than the one that preceded it. IME this is important for a couple of reasons. Firstly it sets a mood of impending doom, the players realize that what is in store for them is worse than what went on before. Secondly, it's also morbidly entertaining for the other pcs who have completed their arc. I'm not talking about railroading or anything like that, these endings flow from their (pcs) decisions

I should have added Fate Worse Than Death - Hastur is absolutely right. Death as a threat is pretty ineffective. And yeah T-Willard, making the obscene (or what could be considered) decisions is what it's all about...although I think, this is what survival horror is all about. (But than I consider Deliverence as an example of survival horror :D )

Lastly I was using UA - barely - for the example I described in my post.

Regards,
David R

Quoteeach pc has their own storylines which involves their character goals as indivduals and not their goals as part of a group.

This is the part I do not really understand. How do you do this? What are the other players doing in the meantime?

Quote from: SettembriniHow do you do this?

Okay, I'll give you an example of play. In my current group there are 7 players. Let's take our recent Cyberpunk campaign. The players are part of a rap posse aiming for the big time. So, the groups goal is to  achieve fame and fortune. There is a the main star - one of the players - who acts as the leader of the group - barely.

Now, each player has their own personal goal, which sometimes clashes with the groups agenda. In the last session 5 of the players were heading to a rap showdown with another group - which in this campaign, could lead to actual violence. However the other two pcs had some place else to go.

One of them, had a personal goal, to become the most influential concert promoter in the city, so she wanted to check out this other promoter who she suspected of stealing some of her business, the other player was tagging along because he was her brother whose goal was to see that no harm came to her.

Now, in game terms, I switch from scene (the rap showdown) to scene (the stake out of the promoters apartment) spending roughly about ten mins on each scene. I've gotten into the habit of being about to do this for up to three scenes - learning through trial and error about dramatic pauses, quick cuts etc.

QuoteWhat are the other players doing in the meantime?

Well, when their scene is not being played, I suppose they are watching the other scene but most times they are planning their next move for their screen time. The example of play sounds slow moving and tedious but in reality, it's not. Things move pretty swiftly. I gotten, into the habit of getting to the essense of the encounter.

But, Sett, I think a lot of folks do this in their games in some fashion. I think there is something else to your questions. Now I admit I'm not really good at talking about gaming - I run a better game than how I describe how I run my games - but really, I think this is about your preceptions of a certain playstyle , maybe?

Regards,
David R

QuoteBut, Sett, I think a lot of folks do this in their games in some fashion. I think there is something else to your questions. Now I admit I'm not really good at talking about gaming - I run a better game than how I describe how I run my games - but really, I think this is about your preceptions of a certain playstyle , maybe?

No, No, I´m really interested. because I never ever had a "PH" session/game. I´m honestly trying to understand.
Do you have an Actual Play thread somewhere?

Quote from: SettembriniNo, No, I´m really interested. because I never ever had a "PH" session/game. I´m honestly trying to understand.

Oh, sorry about my remark . I was hoping this thread would be about gamers take on their versions of personal horror. I don't think there is one or even an accepted definition of the genre. I mean, some folks would read my posts and go "What the fuck, is this wanker, talking about" :D . My version may not be how most people would run this kind of game, or even if it's useful subgenre to discuss. If it is even a subgenre...

QuoteDo you have an Actual Play thread somewhere?

I don't do actual play threads. I keep thinking what I found to be the most thrilling adventure, other folks would yawn in boredom.

Regards,
David R

Well, I´d really like to know more, but without examples I think I´m lost.
I only know the Cthulhu Horror Variant, and this doesn´t seem to be what you are talking about.

Quote from: SettembriniWell, I´d really like to know more, but without examples I think I´m lost.
I only know the Cthulhu Horror Variant, and this doesn´t seem to be what you are talking about.

I don't think I could give you any examples of personal horror games..well at least not in the context of how I have defined it. I don't think any mainstream games can be PH games, and I'm not familiar with most of the indie games out there.

I do think, that the only way to run PH is when the group as a whole comes up with something. Most published horror games posit an outside threat or that the pcs are part of a group of outsiders dealing with the rest of humanity...which makes them insiders to my mind. Also most of these settings have an established supernatural history which although at the beginning at least the pcs maybe ignorant of as they proceed further they learn more.

What I'm proposing about my take on PH, is that there is nothing established out there. There is nothing to unite to fight against. There is in fact no winning or losing only the slow realization that you are not going to come out of the situation intact...which may seem like any other horror game...I'm not explaining it right..maybe, later.

Regards,
David R

Well, y'all seem to have established that there are few, if any, settings that mesh well with personal horror, as outside factors (like established supernatural history or kewl powerz) can make things only a bare fraction as horrific.

There still seem to be plenty of systems out there with mechanics that DO work for personal horror. What matters is that there should be repercussions for character actions/decisions/circumstances/backgrounds that affect the character (using the system) the world (ie the setting) and most importantly, the player (ie freaking them out).

So what's wrong with the CoC or nWoD systems? They're familiar, just inform the players that you're not using the setting and have something FAR WORSE cooked up for the poor bastards...in other words, the horrors should not be speakable. They should be UNspeakable and the product of something the players have never read about or whatever.

Why did I bother buying the Vampire books? I could've gotten so much more mileage out of just the nWoD corebook...argh.

Quote from: dsivisThere still seem to be plenty of systems out there with mechanics that DO work for personal horror. What matters is that there should be repercussions for character actions/decisions/circumstances/backgrounds that affect the character (using the system) the world (ie the setting) and most importantly, the player (ie freaking them out).

Yup, I should have made this clear, in my take of the whole genre.

QuoteSo what's wrong with the CoC or nWoD systems? They're familiar, just inform the players that you're not using the setting and have something FAR WORSE cooked up for the poor bastards...in other words, the horrors should not be speakable. They should be UNspeakable and the product of something the players have never read about or whatever.

Nothing at all. It's more of a setting thing than a system thing IMO.

QuoteWhy did I bother buying the Vampire books? I could've gotten so much more mileage out of just the nWoD corebook...argh.

I know of a few folks who would agree with you. Don't get me wrong. I like Vampire, Werewolf etc esp Mage...but IMO PH they ain't :D

Regards,
David R

So you run Personal Horror, but can´t tell about it?
I´m puzzled, yet intrigued.

Quote from: SettembriniSo you run Personal Horror, but can´t tell about it?
I´m puzzled, yet intrigued.

My players feel the same way about most of the campaign ideas I throw at them...:cool:

Regards,
David R

I'd say with personal horror, you've got to pick a theme and stick with it. I haven't really worked out if you need to limit your theme beyond common sense (the theme shouldn't be "bunnies versus kitties" or shit like that), but it seems like really good horror is always dramatising some sort of idea. Buffy wasn't pure horror, but I think it did a good job of this, for a TV show. It took conflicts from the main characters' lives and represented them as monsters or villains who the characters fought. Zombie movies do this all the time. Dawn of the Dead (the original) was all about the idea that people in the grips of consumerism and zombies are similar to one another, for example.

I think you can be cool and still have personal horror.

Evangelion.

Sure the kid pilots a giant robot. He still sucks at life. And gets sucked into a spacial anomoly. And dissolves. And is literally *forced* to kill a close friend. And gets crucified. And stuff.


Bad shit can still happen to "kewl" people.

Quote from: beejazzI think you can be cool and still have personal horror.

Evangelion.

Sure the kid pilots a giant robot. He still sucks at life. And gets sucked into a spacial anomoly. And dissolves. And is literally *forced* to kill a close friend. And gets crucified. And stuff.


Bad shit can still happen to "kewl" people.

Have you run any kind of games like this?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RHave you run any kind of games like this?

Regards,
David R

Meh. You'd need a gamer with quite the appetite for pain in order to play this. Not that such people don't exist. I'm sure some might get a kick out of it.

Thing is... even if one of my players did have such an appetite... I'm running the game for eleven others, too.

I would play in such a game, given half a chance. Hell yeah. If it was done well, I'd stick with it.

Quote from: David RHave you run any kind of games like this?

Run one? Hell, we're (beejazz and I) trying to write one!

For me personal horror is about hope and despair.
It is about being free to make choices, yet being confined in actually affecting things on the large scale.

As a GM you don't strive to keep a balance between these extremes, but to keep them shifting a quickly as possible from one end of the spectrum to the other.
Don't let them rest.
Force the PCs to make quick choices...then present them with the ugly consequences of their choices.
Just when all seems to be lost, dangle a glimmer of hope in front of them, just to have it snatched away, if they don't make a tough decision.
Rinse.
Repeat.

The game which does this best, is Wraith:the Oblivion.
So you are a ghost. Sucks to be you.
But wait, at least you are still around and can look out for the things and people you care for. Could be worse, right?
Well, it gets. You watch all the people going on with their lives, making foolish choices, without being able to really affect anything.
Whats more, you also have this annoying voice in your head, which makes a point to highlight all the bad stuff going on with your loved ones for you... things that, if you remember correctly, are not going to affect.
And that makes the voice stronger.
Meanwhile you are busy dodging the ghost goverment, who want you to enlist you to their ranks, giving you a set of new responsibilities, while keeping you away from the things you REALLY care about.
But if you don't join up with them, you have no protection against the Spectres (ugly, evil ghosts), who might rend you to pieces for good measure (did I mention that when you die as a ghost, you nearly always come back, but have to go through a nighmarish hellscape first, confronting you with your worst fears-plus the voice in your head gets stronger by it? Well I did now.)
There are also other groups, not related to the ghost goverment, that you might join up for protection. Except those groups are at odds with the goverment and sometimes each other, giving you a lot more to do and not doing the things you really care about (meanwhile the voice in your head keeps getting stronger...)
And you can learn secret powers, giving you fantastic abilities (but to achieve really great results you have to give in to the voice in your head) or even allowing you to affect the lands of the living.
Sounds like a good deal? Well, using them wil make you a criminal and the goverment will REALLY try to bring you down. Now you are REALLY dependent on your new "friends" (Did I mention they are structured like the Mafia? Well I did now.), who can basicly ask anything from you.
And when you really lose your nerve and the voice in your head (the Shadow) takes over your mind, it can use those powers to actually harm those you care about...sucks to be you.
You can band together with likeminded wraiths, keeping watch for (and on) each other and helping each other complete their goals...but can you really trust them, when they could be spies, masquerading Spectres (yes, some of them can appear normal) or controled by their shadows. Or maybe their unfinished business isn't what you think it is and they are using you to further their own ends. You better keep them under control, yes?

Are you wondering at this point that what your Shadow is whispering into your ear is starting to make a whole lot of sense?

Quote from: alexandroAre you wondering at this point that what your Shadow is whispering into your ear is starting to make a whole lot of sense?

Have you ever run a campaign where pcs played the shadow role? Although IMO I don't really consider WW games as personal horror -many folks do :) - I always thought that Wraith was very much in tune with what I consider as PH. Wraith came in second after Mage on my list of all time favourite WW games.

Regards,
David R

Indeed.

Vampire could have been PH (all the things that made Wraith what it is were there, but nipped in the bud).

Werewolf and Hunter could have been PH (if they focused on the "being drafted to fight in a war we can't win" theme, instead of kewl powers).

Mage never really was PH, but thats OK, it is great the way it is.

The other WoD Game that has great PH horror potential is one you really wouldn't expect (its second in my personal hit list after Wraith):
Changeling (1st edition only)

Quote from: alexandroMage never really was PH, but thats OK, it is great the way it is.

Very true.

QuoteThe other WoD Game that has great PH horror potential is one you really wouldn't expect (its second in my personal hit list after Wraith):
Changeling (1st edition only)

Hey now, this is interesting. What does Changeling have that makes you think it has potential to be a PH game ?

Regards,
David R

Well, first off, it is (at least in its first incarnation) not so much a game about faeries in the modern world, but of generational conflict.
You have three age groups (kids, teens, adults) going about their lifes and trying to find happiness and fullfillment in it.
They see a hidden part of the world and have this vision of perfection that is hard to describe, a sort of guiding principle.
Naturally, being in a different phase of their life when this realization comes, this phase is most closely tied to their understanding of this principle. And naturally they are afraid if their connection to it is going to fade away, if their personal identity, the way of going about in their life, changes.
Kids are afraid of growing up, of not having time for their invisible friends, of not being able to have fun anymore.
Teens are afraid of losing their passion, of becoming complacent and being just a regular joe with a 5-day week and a 40-hour week.
Adults are afraid of having lost the best parts of their lives and are trying to experience everything, but in a concious way (not like the kids and teens, who don't know how good they have it).

I can totally relate to all of this and it became clear to me, when watching "The Last Unicorn":
As a kid I enjoyed the movie, because I liked the imaginary fairytale world.
As a teen I really liked the bittersweet romance, because it touched my heart.
As a adult I wondered how I could have missed out on the beautiful symbolism and the hidden archetypes of all the characters.
...and later I realized that all these parts were equally important aspects in my life.

But now imagine you had the power to stay forever in one aspect of your life: this is what Changeling is about.
Kids that never grow up...
Teens that never settle down...
Adults that never grow tired of experiencing life...
...in their minds. Because you see, moving through these phases is a natural process of personal growth and so the Changelings become, by their very nature, something not-natural, something alien (or fey).
The dream of being Peter Pan turned into a nightmare.

This is the second important aspect, the feeling of being cast out from society the pressure to conform and the inability to communicate anything about the things you see and feel to the world at large... how they deal with this is what drives most Changeling stories.
They can choose not to make any compromises, to stay forever the way they are, finding somewhere where their odd behaviour isn't noticed (i.e. faking the eccentric artist etc.), but if they aren't confronted with the reality they risk slipping deeper into their fantasy and going completely off the rocker...
The can cave in and change to fit in with society, but often society changes so fast and what they are doing isn't done by conviction, but because they think they have to. And when you change enough you might just forget who you really are and not care for anything anymore.
So the balance between "just being yourself" and "being what others expect of you" is what really drives home the game.

The third part is the part of the Dreaming, where the subconcious thoughts of you and your enviroment take a very real quality for you. That is really scary, because we are talking about the WoD here, the most wretched place there is. Imagine the worst a psychopatic serial killer acts out- any two-bit accountant probably daydreams stuff that is ten times worse, when his boss has passed him AGAIN on the promotion.
Dealing with your own dreams and fears is hard.
Being forced to deal with everyone elses dreams and fears (on a regular basis) is HORROR of the most personal kind.

That is what made Changeling great.
Second Edition ruined this by:
- making Banality an objective thing (now you stay close to your fae side if you act childlike- no matter how old you are- and you become banal of you do "boring" things like collecting stamps- no matter how much passion you feel for your stamp collection)
- offering a myriad of ways to bring mortals into the Dreaming (removing the isolation aspect)
- making the Dreaming cute instead of scary
- offering a multitude of factions, houses etc. and making the game a political one, instead of a personal one

What I want to know is how anyone runs horror games with players cracking jokes all the time. Because most gamers I know crack jokes throughout a game session. This is alright if it's action or schticky or even drama in style but pretty much fucks horror. As GM I make all this effort to build up dramatic tension, then someone cracks a joke.

Alexandro, I get a strong Robert Holdstock (sp?) vibe on your views of Changeling. Brings to mind what Dave Langford said of Holdstock's work - "he writes the real stuff". Yeah dark(?) fantasy as PH seems a good way of looking at things.

JimBob, what can I say? Players cracking jokes really spoils the whole atmosphere regardless of genre, but with horror it's even worse. No advice except the usual "talk to your players" ....

Regards,
David R

I don't find it spoils other genres as it does horror. In most games, players are able to crack a joke, laugh, then refocus on what they're doing. The mood is lightened, but it's not ruined.

I think it's that humour is the opposite of horror, while it's just parallel or an offshoot of drama, action, scifi, etc.

Humor and horror can be pretty closely related. In alot of movies, you get some sunny introductions to the characters before jumping into the slaughter (this is both to make the audience like the characters and to drive home the point that something is being lost/destroyed). Likewise with alot of cutesy scenes in animes that otherwise are shooting for horrific (Misato's drinking, countless Asuka jokes, etc.)

While it's all well and good to give the players a chance to get the light-heartedness out of their system, if they're cracking jokes during the horror, maybe they just don't want to play horror. At least in the sense that they don't feel like indulging in any kind of fear.

Just my 2cp.

Quote from: JimBobOzI don't find it spoils other genres as it does horror. In most games, players are able to crack a joke, laugh, then refocus on what they're doing. The mood is lightened, but it's not ruined.

I think it's that humour is the opposite of horror, while it's just parallel or an offshoot of drama, action, scifi, etc.

Probably. But on a game level (or in any level) horror is difficult to sustain. Scaring the players or building up to an atmosphere of terror is pretty difficult to do. With action etc I think it's tension - which is easier to pull off.

Creating a tense situation and a horrific situation may not be distinct to some folks but IME there is a distinction. Humour in the former does not break the scene but in the later could bring things to an end pretty fast.

beejazz is correct I think, when he says the players must want to play in this kind of genre.

Regards,
David R

The problem with PH is that isn't just enough to scare the players (as in regular horror), but to really make the care about their characters, even though they are pretty messed up and no one could reasonably like this person.

If the players could care less about their characters...well than PH doesn't work.

Not sure about that cracking jokes thing. It really doesn't happen if the players are immersed in the game, but I'm not sure, if it could ruin a game.

@David R: Thanks, I'm checking Holdstock out (always good to have new inspiration).