Quote from: TonyLBMan, I think that using your jewish identity as an ideological bludgeon that way is very poor form.  You do not speak for all jews.

I speak for them more than you can. Or Mattijs.

And hey, I'm not stopping any Jewish roleplaying gamers popping up to post here saying they think it's a smashing idea.

Anybody?

Quote from: JimBobOzI speak for them more than you can.

The FUCK?

Assume much, do you?

Quote from: JimBobOzMattijs is Norwegian, yeah? So he could write an rpg about the German occupation of his country and Quisling and his buddies.

I did consider this, along the way. There are many things about this part of our (Norwegian) history that we need to re-examine, and it's very possible that I will go into that later. (While she was alive, I also spoke to my grandmother about the German occupation, the bombing of Northern Norway and the Nazi torturers).

I'm sorry, but you're very much misunderstanding - and misrepresenting - my motivations here. You're free to do so, of course.

Quote from: TonyLBThe FUCK?

Assume much, do you?

I'm Jewish Tony. He's certainly echoing my sentiments. Well, I double posted.

Quote from: Matthijs HolterJimBobOz, what is your opinion of films, comics novels about the Holocaust?

Like any other topic, some are good, some are bad. Comic books in particular are generally bad - the medium is inherently trivialising. The same goes for game mechanics. Words and photographic images are different, because they present people's thoughts and actual physical selves. Comic book-type images trivialise things - that's why for example South Park can present a kid kicking a baby out the window and it's funny, but if shown on film - even with a realistic-looking yet fake baby - it'd be horrifying.

I've had a good part of my life with this stuff around me. To be honest, I think very little new can be said. People suffered. Other people inflicted that suffering. The suffering was bureaucratic, systematic, and at the same time random and arbitrary. In this, it is not particularly different from any one of scores of other genocides you might consider - Armenian, Chechen, the several Rwandan, Zanzibar, or whatever. Those wouldn't be fun or productive, either.

Anyway, it's not a roleplaying game, you said - so what's it doing here?

Well, I'm part Romani, and I certainly don't have objections to the project in itself.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine... but the topic of the Holocaust is not off-limits to RPGs.

Or any other media, IMO.

I'm just trying to figure this out. I think this kind of subject matter or slavery for instance -Slave Ship the RPG - is something best left to the individual group to explore if thats what they want.

But I also think why not a published rpg? Is it the subject matter that I find so intrusive into my escapist gaming?

Not making much sense here...I'll post more when I have something constructive to say.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: TonyLBThe FUCK?

Assume much, do you?

I'm Jewish, Tony. He's certainly echoing my sentiments.

(inadvertently double-posted)

Quote from: JimBobOzMattijs is Norwegian, yeah? So he could write an rpg about the German occupation of his country and Quisling and his buddies. "Let's explore collaborating with the Gestapo to drag dissenters off to basements and beat them to death with rubber hoses. Just to make it extra real, we'll get you to roleplay your grandmother, she was alive then, yeah?"

But I guess that "experience" wouldn't be vicarious enough for him. He needs a bit of distance.

There have been two or three Norwegian LARPs using the historical background of Norway during the occupation. "1942 - Noen å stole på?" is the most renowned, I think. Couldn't find any info in English, I'm afraid. From the Norwegian LARP-forum dedicated to 1942:

"1942 - noen å stole p" is without a doubt the strongest, most painful, most brutal and most thought-provoking LARP I have ever attended. And that is actually meant in a positive way.

There are many individuals I wish to thank, personally, organizers as well as players. But my gratitude is basically rooted in two things: that you treated the era, environment and the characters with respect and solemnity. And that you dared.

(...)" (Eirik Fatland, my translation)

Quote from: JimBobOzComic books in particular are generally bad - the medium is inherently trivialising.

I see. I disagree strongly.

QuoteAnyway, it's not a roleplaying game, you said - so what's it doing here?

I didn't say that.

Quote from: JimBobOzAnyway, it's not a roleplaying game, you said - so what's it doing here?

No. You've (repeatedly) said it's not a roleplaying game. He's expressed uncertainty as to how he should label it:

Quote from: Matthijs HolterThe main problem, as I see it, is that if I call it a "game", the connotations of that word aren't all applicable to We All Had Names. It might be better for all involved if I call it an "interactive story" or similar, to show there are no win conditions, it's not primarily a "fun" activity, it's not about using game systems against each other etc.

He's using "[RPG]Theories based on what we know to work, to make new games, new mechanics, new settings, new whatever", to quote from the forum description. It's fairly obvious why he posts here. Utilizing techniques from RPGs is an integral part of his project. Whether you label that as a "game" or as "an interactive story" is of less consequence.

Ok, what's going on here is that we've gotten locked into an intellectual dead end where everybody just waves their group identifications at one another ("I'm a Jew", "I'm gay", "I'm Romani") as if this was a jurisdictional problem and we simply needed to sort out which ethnic group ought to be responsible for the production of Holocaust RPGs.

Non-Jews making RPGs about the Holocaust is not bad. Either the Holocaust is a universally bad thing, which everyone can appreciate intellectually, or else it just happened to the Jews and is solely their concern (maybe the Germans too).

The former means that the event is _public_ - the individual person's background matters less than the arguments, insights and artifacts they produce about it.

The latter means that the event is _private_, in which case, it's unreasonable to expect anyone but Jews to care about it. It's their business, not anyone else's.

It seems obvious to me which is preferable, but YMMV.

In short, either the Jewishness or not of the author has nothing to with their right to publish things about the Holocaust or the merit of the work itself, or else we start getting into ethically questionable territory.

If you've spent any time here, you might know that JimBob and I agree on very little.

Except this.

I am not Jewish. But this just doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps it's a European thing. Is there a desire to relive this kind of horror in small groups?

That is, I can see if you wanted to write a book or script that explored this topic so you could work through your feelings on the topic. I can see wanting to get that published so that other people can read it and experience it in some way.

But what is gained by having people sit around and do these things together? To me it gets to what JimBob said about people needing some kind of experience - but it's more.  They need to show everyone else they can experience it as well.  And they want everyone to know just how emotional they can get over it; how deeply they can feel about it.

It's quite odd to me.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineIn short, either the Jewishness or not of the author has nothing to with their right to publish things about the Holocaust or the merit of the work itself, or else we start getting into ethically questionable territory.

Thanks for posting this! As I understand it, Jewish historians have expressed concern that so few non-Jews are writing about the Shoah/Holocaust. I believe that writing, thinking and talking about the Shoah is something that everyone should be able to do - and probably should do.

Quote from: Matthijs HolterThat's very hard to answer. The idea, since I first got it, has stuck in my mind and won't go away. I think it is primarily a project of learning, of trying to understand and get to grips with something that for me, personally, is probably the most incomprehensible part of our history. It is a way for me to learn, and hopefully help others to learn as well.

I'd consider this a red-flag, and probably a good reason to step away from the project until you're more-clear about your own reasons.

It's clear you're trying to tackle serious subject matter seriously -- but if you're not able to understand your own reasons for doing this (and doing this in a game format) it's very likely that you'll be unaware of places where whatever your actual agenda is creeps into the game.

I also notice that you cite Wikipedia -- if you're going to be appropriately serious about this I'd cite more respectable sources... and lots of them.

You may have done an enormous amount of primary research (it doesn't come across in what I've read), but if your familiarity with the material is at the wiki-pedia level that could be a deal-breaker.

In an earlier post you mentioned comic books and tv-shows. I'm sure you're aware that in most cases where those are considered appropriate (e.g. MAUS) the level of scholarship and the relationship to the events portrayed may be well beyond the Wikipedia level.

Cheers,
-E.