Orson Welles in The Stranger comes to mind Koltar esp the "dinner table scene" with regards to the links you posted.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: JimBobOzNo. But if you're trying to get an insight into the experiences of group X, it's wise to consult group X about it.

You'll find no disagreement from me on this. I guess I got the wrong impression. Sorry.

Quote from: Anders NygaardIt takes lots of people remembering, seeing all that evidence, and thinking about it. Let's not play the "less steps removed from the holocaust than you"-game. It's frankly disgusting, and no one wins.


Exactly. "Jewish" is not a race either. Humans died in the camps. So humans have a right to understand what the hell happened. It was a rhetorical question, intended to point out that there's no one "race" or other imaginary category which gets to veto what is said about this subject. Sorry for the confusion.

No. This is where you are dead fucking wrong. You have no idea what the significance of this particular event means to us. Hopefully you can understand that whatever "general tragic statement about humanity" this means to you, it means something very intense and specific and personal to me. We have concerns about our collective safety and our right to exist that continue to this very day. The phrase "wiped off the map" isn't some dim historical thing for us. You don't get to absolve yourself from the legacy of this particular event by picking the approved political party either. I don't care if it's nazis, socialists, or Jostein Gaarder advocating hatred and discrimination by policy, it doesn't matter.

But this is not a general historical event where "humans" suffered. It was a lot more specific than that.

Quote from: J ArcaneBollocks.  To borrow JimBob's phrase, this game is as much educational as Dr. Phil is legitimate therapy.  

If anything, casting it as some kind of "educational tool" is even more poisonous, for the very reasons I've already stated.  

It's a playacting game.  Not real life.  Period.

I'm going to prematurely break my self-promised silence to suggest that you only read the first half of my sentence.

I'm basing my opinion of this project, to a large degree, on the quote that JimBob included in this post upthread. IMO if such a thing were sincerely presented as an activity for a group of friends to engage in, in private, it would be highly questionable with regard to taste and propriety. On the other hand if it were an activity as part of a class on the Holocaust, it could be much more acceptable, even valuable. I'd compare the material I linked to from the Holocaust museum: if they were framed as "roleplaying scripts" for groups of people to read to each other so they can help themselves "experience being a victim", it would be groteseque. But as part of a public museum exhibit, the approach is respectful and powerful.

I want to agree with Eliot- if this were a well developed thing as part of a museum exhibit, and it were done respectfully.. than it might be ok.

However, I'm seeing a lot of things revealed from this guys friends who popped up here-- And it's giving me some serious doubts as to their motivations and what they were trying to do. This has the stink of present-day politics to it. Considering that, and a few hinted statements by some of the "playtesters", and the current situation in Norway, I am especially worried that this will be used as an ideological bludgeon of some kind.

I think it is remarkable, that the author has encountered new arguments on theRPG site.

Makes you wonder.

Wonder about the people he talked to beforehand.
Wonder about his intellectual upbringing.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI want to agree with Eliot- if this were a well developed thing as part of a museum exhibit, and it were done respectfully.. than it might be ok.

However, I'm seeing a lot of things revealed from this guys friends who popped up here-- And it's giving me some serious doubts as to their motivations and what they were trying to do. This has the stink of present-day politics to it. Considering that, and a few hinted statements by some of the "playtesters", and the current situation in Norway, I am especially worried that this will be used as an ideological bludgeon of some kind.

How can I put those worries to rest? Again, I don't think the game in itself can be used as an ideological bludgeon. No matter what they think over at the forge, games can't do that.

I think someone else mentioned this too, but I can't imagine what you mean by "the current situation in Norway". The current government coalition majority is the labour party, which were involved in the creation of the state of Israel trough the Secretary-General in 1947. They're hardly anti-semites. Why not bring the sources of your suspicions out in the open instead of meeting hints with hints, so we can be sure there are no misunderstandings?

That said, I'm not involved in writing this game; I took part in one playtest and keep up with the development blogs. I don't want to drown out Matthijs' talking about his own game. Apologies if I have.

Quote from: SettembriniI think it is remarkable, that the author has encountered new arguments on theRPG site.

Makes you wonder.

Wonder about the people he talked to beforehand.
Wonder about his intellectual upbringing.

Not really.

I do wonder about yours.

Regards,
David R

David, you keep making smug statements. He's referring to the fact that this kid has had this thing "in development" for a long time now, and talked it up in other places. Until now, I suspect that nobody expressed anything but enthusiasm about how "awesome" it would be, but maybe that's just talking about the government grant.

And all I can say to Anders is that my community is very concerned about Norway lately. Elsewhere there's the usual european hijinks with the spray-painted gravestones and the random violent attacks.. but in Norway it takes the form of Aftenposten articles that we all take very seriously.

Quote from: Abyssal MawDavid, you keep making smug statements. He's referring to the fact that this kid has had this thing "in development" for a long time now, and talked it up in other places. Until now, I suspect that nobody expressed anything but enthusiasm about how "awesome" it would be, but maybe that's just talking about the government grant.

Maybe. But Sett's smug comments adds nothing to this conversation except I suppose reinforcing whatever warped perception he has of certain gamers. This kid came here for a reason. I suspect because he wanted some harsh criticism about his project. He got it.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: JimBobOzOr they could even trouble themselves to remember that while 6 million Jews died, 6 million Romani, Soviets, homosexuals, Quakers and so on also perished.

You left out the Poles.

RPGPundit

Concerning the worries about the game being used as an "ideological bludgeon", I agree with Anders. I have played games that, unlike this one, were meant to be ideological bludgeons. It didn't work. The players came up with their own interpretations anyway. Games are a poor medium for conveying predetermined messages.

Besides, based on my knowledge of the author, I am confident that he would not try to make such a game.

(Or whatever he decides to call it. Based on the beta version I playtested, the main difference from traditional RPGs is that player choice, and GM choice, is very limited. The game is heavily scripted, the scenes are set in advance by the playtext, and the plot is pretty much decided in beforehand. While I have labelled it a game, I have learned from this discussion that such a label may be more misleading than clarifying. I agree with Ole Peder that the comparison with the cards at the Holocaust museum is probably a better one than the comparison with, say, D&D, Gurps or whatever.)

Quote from: James J SkachYou simply cannot, in any way, understand the way in which these people were treated. That's what people mean when they say it's almost unimaginable. It's because you simply can't understand it. Surely not by trying to imagine yourself in that role - it's just not possible.

I agree. Books, while being a good medium for learning historical facts, cannot give you such an understanding as you describe. Neither can games. Actually, I believe really understanding an event of this scale that you did not participate in yourself is impossible. But it is always possible to understand a bit more than what you did before.

That is the goal of all educative activity, I guess.

Quote from: Matthijs HolterI want to thank everyone again for their comments.

Here's what's currently happening.

- I'm rethinking the concept. Labeling it a "game", with the connotations people have to that word, is misleading. I believe the focus must be on education, and that it's probably best suited for use in a classroom situation. I realize that such a concept isn't what this forum is about, and I will take the debate elsewhere, as has been strongly suggested by others on this thread.

- I'm getting in touch with various Jewish groups and institutions focusing on Holocaust education - in Norway, the U. S. and the U. K., for starters. I will be asking for their opinions and guidance on the project, and will attempt to meet and speak to survivors or their relatives.

- I'm thinking long and hard about my personal motivations for the project, and will be prepared to discuss those with the groups, institutions and individuals mentioned.

Outstanding.

In this spirit let me try to frame something that's troubling me and that your subsequent investigation and discussion may illuminate:

My understanding of your game/whatever-it-is is that it follows the "choose your own adventure" format with multiple-choice options and pre-selected outcomes.

This kind of format tends to *heavily* reflect the biases of the author while at the same time implying that the chooser's choice in some way matters.

Playing "what if" with the Holocaust is a particularly repulsive pass-time; in many cases the kinds of choices people were forced to make were nearly unimaginable for us (now, generations removed and able to understand the whole picture).

I understand that you're trying to address this by presenting at least some kind of philosophical, theological, and cultural framework for the players to help influence their choices (Something along the lines of "Your character believes X, Y, and Z").

My point is that by

1) Giving them a set of finite choices that you, with decades of hindsight have created and
2) Asking them to make them with the knowledge that the game-author has already stacked the deck

may be selling out the whole concept of trying to understand or empathize with people in such a situation from the word go.

I don't think you can escape this, really... and if you were just writing a book at least there wouldn't be any pretense or implication that the choices and outcomes presented were anything but the author's ideas.

Trying to summarize succinctly: You've created a somewhat crude Holocaust simulation that invites people to imagine what it might be like to make unimaginable choices; I think the nature of your medium ("choose your own adventure") may compromise that vision by framing those choices as discreet, "imaginable" and in some way fatalistic.

People playing your game may *imagine* that they are -- in some small way -- able to empathize or understand what it must have been like... and my suspicion is that that won't be the case at all.

Anyway, good luck. I hope I'm wrong.
-E.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI want to suggest you talking to Yad Vashem and the Wiesenthal Center again.

Thanks for the suggestion and links. I have now mailed them both with the revised project description, asking them if they'd be so kind as to look through the different pieces and provide feedback and commentary.

(E. is making a very important point here; however, I will answer him on the blog, since I believe this debate has been judged off-topic for the forum).