High Valor my Dark Age fantasy RPG is finished on my end. I only need to have another chapter added in, and editing/layout aspects done.

Since it was asked that I talk about it in a new thread, I thought I'd come over here and do just that.

What would people like to know?

1) What makes it Dark Age?   How is that expressed in the gameplay and the rules?   How is your Dark Age different than WoD Dark Ages, Pendragon or Dragon Warriors or even Warhammer?

2) What is the High Valor?  Are the PCs patterned off Arthurian knights?  Does chivalry play a strong part of the campaign?  Like L5R's honor, is there an expected code of conduct of "High Valor" that is an integral part of the game?

3) What game experience will High Valor give us that we have not gotten from other fantasy RPGs?

The game is set in the dark ages, as in a fantasy era similar to the real dark ages, inspired by Carolingian (Frankish), Norse, and Celtic myths. None of the games you mentioned to my knowledge are Dark Ages at all. Pendragon comes closest and even it is anachronistic juxtaposition of a 14th century Medieval Arthur from the French chansons, placed in contrast to the historical era of Arthur's (mythic and Dark Age) origins. While High Valor has a few anachronisms, none of them are as blatant as that.  Vampire the Dark Ages is set in the Middle Ages, Dragon Warriors mimics the 16th century, and Warhammer is closer to the late Middle Ages as well--all significantly after the time period called "The Dark Ages."

Some examples: Mail is the most common pinnacle of the armorers craft (since metallurgy hasn't yet fashioned the new era of plate.), Spears are far more common than swords still as weapons, because of expense--albeit swords are passed on from father to son, mother to daughter, etc.

Chivalry is pretty much a later ideal--while there is honor, and glory in aspects of High Valor, your basically thinking too late era codified ideas for what High Valor covers. (There are Knights, I kept the modernish spelling rather than call them Cnights, but they do go back to Charlemagne's Peers in many ways, rather than a tilting, plate armored, horseman.)


These are things High Valor heroes do:

Anyone can become a hero.
Heroes may be asked to hunt down and slaying evil, dangerous monsters.
Heroes  may be avenging kin who have been slain or wronged. Fulfilling inherited blood-feuds.
They may owe allegiance to a great lord (or lady) and do his or her  bidding.
High Valor heroes may raid enemy lands, or raid enemy lands while facing greater trials of faith and will.
They may hire out as mercenaries.
They may join or beget expeditions of exploration and trade,  or seek to conquer new lands.
They may be arranging plans to marry one’s sons & daughters well. (Either following heritage demands of dowry, oaths, or following their individualistic drive to do right by their children.)
Demonstrating their verbal prowess through oration at official functions through storytelling, through singing or through games (riddles, word play, boasting)
Hunting great mythic or legendary beasts (Magical Stags, Manticores, Dragons, Trolls).
Pilgrimages to places renowned for the passing or acts of various Saints
Carrying treasure to one’s lord or distributing it to one’s followers.
Spreading one’s fame and bringing glory to one’s name, ones lord, or ones people.
Achieve respect and patronage of famed noblemen, learned sages, or ranking priests.
Improving one’s status (thrall-->churl-->thane-->earl-->king).
Gaining followers and clients as ones status dictates.
Gain allies by making friends with valorous men and women
Showing up ones rivals.
Showing ones faith, valor or will through actions.
Fashioning a safe homestead, complete with a great hall free of the dark things which haunt Aeia.
Bring renown to one’s lineage, tribe, clan, or band.
Make a showing against fell evils.
Die well.



As for what it can do? I'm not one to run around and throw silly words like "innovation" out. No it does what it aims to do. It makes Will, Faith, and Valor integral to how things are resolved. It makes supporting other characters possible in more ways than just evening out numbers of people on your side. Your allies (PC) can make choices to add to your results, assist you're hero in facing down dark terrible threats--by offering up prayers, throwing their support for you out there both verbally and mechanically.   A "new" character isn't a peon meant to spend most of the next few months of play facing down "small" threats to finally take on the big one. Oh they CAN do that, and might want to, but if the heroes want to march straight out to face the big bad evils? They can do so--and not have it turn into a TPK. (The GM has say in this too, of course, but its aim is NOT to make you start play as worthless newbie heroes, struggling for copper bits to afford a real sword someday.)

Character choices matter. You can even willingly accept death to succeed at a task, risk big, suffer big, depending on how much a hero wishes to put on the line.

The world? It's not so different. It's Folkloric ideas of the Dark Ages and fantastic, warped to fit my own personal senses. Big Bad evils to fight, monsters to take on from basilisks to dragons, and terrible demonic Fane-Lords.

What it does, is do epic fantasy "right." It isn't about superpowers, weird wuxia abilities. It's about bloody, terrible, fighting, against the darkness.

Plus, you get to choose what is important to your hero as a player. Want that oath to never use a blooddrinking weapon to matter? Take it, use it, IN play. How about that promise made to your love to avenge her father? Yep, that matters too. If you take such traits and CHOOSE to use them, they help you succeed at tasks, overcome the odds, and win.



*That is, right for me, since very few fantasy games got the "feel" of playing folkloric/mythic heroes right.

Quote from: Silverlion;279210The game is set in the dark ages, as in a fantasy era similar to the real dark ages, inspired by Carolingian (Frankish), Norse, and Celtic myths.

What is different about the Dark Ages in your fantasy world than the Middle Ages of other fantasy RPGs?   How is the Dark Ages "feel" different?   How is the difference apparent in the gameplay?

AKA, as a player, I experience immediately that Dark Sun feels different than Ravenloft, but unless I am deeply invested in the splatbooks, Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms and Generic D&Dland, T&T, Dragon Warriors, and many others all feel pretty much the same.  

AKA, when I rolled up my Dark Sun character, the GM tells me that my axe is actually made of bone and flint and my chainmail coat is going to kill me if I try to wear it all day and that Sorcerer Kings kept me as slave.   I knew I was not in Kansas any more.   Same with Ravenloft where the GM told me that the land was evil.  No, not a metaphor, but everything I touched, breathed, ate and drank was tainted by evil and he let that sink it for awhile.   Again, not in Kansas (although possibly in Detroit).  

So when I sit down at my first High Valor game, what is the GM going to do to let me know I am not in generic fantasy Kansas?

Quote from: Silverlion;279210These are things High Valor heroes do:

How will doing these things in High Valor be a different experience than doing them in another fantasy game?   Why will hunting down an XYZ be a different play experience in HV than in D&D?  What happens in High Valor games that does not usually occur in other fantasy RPGs?

Quote from: Silverlion;279210It makes Will, Faith, and Valor integral to how things are resolved.  It makes supporting other characters possible in more ways than just evening out numbers of people on your side. Your allies (PC) can make choices to add to your results

Interesting.   Give us a detailed example of play.

Quote from: Silverlion;279210What it does, is do epic fantasy "right." It isn't about superpowers, weird wuxia abilities. It's about bloody, terrible, fighting, against the darkness.

What is your definition of "epic fantasy" versus "dark fantasy"?   Your description sounds very Warhammer.

Quote from: Spinachcat;279213AKA, as a player, I experience immediately that Dark Sun feels different than Ravenloft, but unless I am deeply invested in the splatbooks, Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms and Generic D&Dland, T&T, Dragon Warriors, and many others all feel pretty much the same.  

Now that may be fore you, I know that T&T definitely begets a different feel for me anth most of the others. More wordly and cosmopolitan with its alien weapons to traditional fantasy gaming, its very different takes on combat and magic than "Generic D&Dlands", etc.

QuoteSo when I sit down at my first High Valor game, what is the GM going to do to let me know I am not in generic fantasy Kansas?

Probably by asking you to make a character--choose what traits YOU want to be important, as mentioned above. Have a wife you can't stand so you go out adventuring to be away from her? That trait, is IMPORTANT. It isn't just "hey look same stats, different names..", the things you choose to tell us about your character defines how they work, what they do, and how well they do it. From strange birthmarks, social ties, magic weapons, all of that impacts play, mechanically.

QuoteWhy will hunting down an XYZ be a different play experience in HV than in D&D?  What happens in High Valor games that does not usually occur in other fantasy RPGs?

How many games worry about "They may be arranging plans to marry one's sons & daughters well?", admittedly it CAN be ignored, if players so choose, because it is a player driven game. The choices they make from character creation on, shapes the future of the game significantly.

Of most the games you've mentioned, you start out, well as a peon. You're expected to earn every crumb the games gives to you. High Valor isn't about that. Sure heroes CAN advance, be shaped by changes in the game, but its about taking up arms from the get go to make a difference. Want to kill a dragon? A starting character, CAN. (It won't be EASY, but it is possible.)
A hero in High Valor begins play, able to make a difference. If they choose to..

QuoteInteresting.   Give us a detailed example of play.

What kind of example? What would you like it to show?

QuoteWhat is your definition of "epic fantasy" versus "dark fantasy"?   Your description sounds very Warhammer.

Not at all. Warhammer is decidedly modern in how it looks at the characters, most of the time they're ordinary people in over their heads. Starting out as pathetic, mewling peons, mechanically. (You go Ratcatcher! Or you two Student!) Not to belabor the point, but a High Valor hero can be a bright and shining farmboy who inherits his father's spear and helmet, or he can be the grizzled old veteran ready to rest, but realizing he can't just yet. Both work as starting concepts, both will be roughly as effective as one another. Yet at the same time the youthful hero may be lucky, blessed, or gifted; the old hand will be grizzled and skilled. They are both valid and effective characters. From the moment they are finished. They don't have to go through some sort of cautious "leveling up" fighting lower threats to build up their power. (Not that your character can't get better after creation, just that they're fully capable from the start.)

Epic is too often used to mean "over the top" (see Exalted), yet that isn't what it means exactly. It just means expansive in size or scope. Some games make that into "superheroic" fantasy. Rather than simply deep, enduring, memorable moments. We remember for example the story of  Spartan "300", because it is epic. Not because they smacked down an army with a single spear thrust, but because they did something huge, and made a difference, and still died. It was their willingness to stand up, that was epic. Not their success. That's the difference. Heroes die. Die valiantly. Beowulf's story is incomplete if we only tell of the Herod's Hall. We have to tell how he fought a dragon too, even if it was not the clear victory as against grendel. High Valor is perched there on Beowulf, on the Eddas, on the other Sagas of great men, who lived, and did great things, and also who died--where their deaths were every bit as important as their life.  In Warhammer for example there is risk. Random risk that you lose your head to a thrown rock, simply because of bad die rolls---High Valor doesn't leave as much to chance. You choose how much you risk in play. Will you take someone out in one blow? But open yourself to the same? Will you draw out the fight, risking less, but less able to impact your foe?  

Is it even possible to kill a dragon in Warhammer without a magic weapon? D&D? Better yet, IN ONE BLOW? It is possible in High Valor (mind you a magic weapon might not hurt)

You've talked about the setting/backround, but what about the game mechanics?  Is this a rules-lite game or a 'crunchy' game?

  Do you have a downloadable character sheet?  I usually find everything I need to know about a game by the character sheets!

The mechanics in part are mentioned. You see: "Oath of Service to my King", "Argumentative wife..", are not just setting or background, but part of the mechanics. You make those things traits. Of course traits can be things like "Skilled Swordsman", "Adept at Dancing.", or "Fated to Die Facing a Dragon..", while the game allows players to make their own, there are a large number of examples of these traits. Ones especially set up to cover common professions, related skills, racial gifts, and so on.

When I say the game is about Will, Hope, and Valor, I meant that mechanically speaking. A player chooses for their character how to approach an action. They can choose whichever one of those they thinks fits in handling that situation. That is I can have my pc walk into an armed camp, say a prayer (setting, in character), and then ask them to lay down arms. The game give me mechanics to do that. In this case, I the player take the Faith dice pool. Roll it, take out the highest die and add the two most useful traits to this situation to my roll. In this case I'd probably add "Vow of Service", and "Orator", add their ranks to my roll from my pool.

I roll 4d10 (my Faith pool, since this is a priest he has more dice in this pool, than in the others.) I as the player say what he plans to do. The Gm says that if I fail this task, the bandists will take me hostage, and use my hero to try and ply money from the lords.


I take on the character voice (because that's how I RP) and say "Sons of the High Lord, do not dwell in fear, I mean you no harm and come in peace. I know the times are tough, and darkness looms.  Yet,turning to banditry is not the way of good faithful men. Please lay down your arms. We can speak to the baron together, and maybe convince him to aid us in this dire time, with food and goods from his own stocks.. The High Lord will be with us in this..." Since I'm appealing to their faith in part, I roll my 4d10 for my PC, I get 4,5,6,8. I take the highest (best) roll of 8 and add in my traits: Orator (Greater +4), and  Vow of Service (Heroic +6), and get a total of 18, that would handily beat a Heroic feat target number, but is below a Legendary feat. Since none of them are terribly evil bandits, or supernatural foes, or Legendarily stubborn, this should be enough to convince them through faith, and my own willingness to put the character weaponless in harms way.

The system works pretty much the same for all tasks. I state my intent for my character--HOW he will proceed, and am told the most serious setback I'm likely to suffer.  (Death is a possible setback, you likely know IN advance the odds it can happen.)

Relatively speaking its not very crunchy. Don't mistake me, it has rules that tell you how to handle physical challenges, social challenges, "skill" checks, magic, and miracles, and so on. It just is relatively straightforward and simple.

I don't have a good PC sheet put together. (Just the one I use for my groups, and playtesters.) If that is sufficient, I could put it up for download? Or you can wait until the official one is ready.

Quote from: Silverlion;279187High Valor my Dark Age fantasy RPG is finished on my end. I only need to have another chapter added in, and editing/layout aspects done.

This is one of the projects that you discussed that I want to see published. I am glad to see you are approaching the end-game on this one. Congratulations.