Open my big mouth:

What I take away from the essay is not what the author intended. But it is valuable:

When designing a game or setting, strive to be conscious of your influences. Likely you have inherited a set of assumptions from prior experiences; don't let your assumptions rule everything.

Look beyond your usual taste boundaries. If you want to write Epic Fantasy, familiarize yourself with Leonard Elmore and Tom Clancy, not just Tolkien.

If you want to write an RPG, don't start from one system (D&D, Storyteller, whatever). Read and play many different systems, and see which ones have elements you like.

Everything is a remix. Truly great art is a remix, as well. Shakespeare used other people's stories, pretty much exclusively. Borrowing has a noble tradition.

Just be aware of what you're borrowing, and do so for a reason. Don't take elements from one game "just because".

Examine your assumptions, and especially examine all the mechanics in your game. Justify each on its own merits, not because it existed in a predecessor system. Your work will be much improved thereby.

Not what the author intended, but that's what I take away. And, in the form I've presented it, it's pretty good advice.

Quote from: noisms;612826It's subtler than that. The reason they're called "Heartbreakers" is quite specific - they're heartbreaking because of the love and effort put into them (which is for naught) and because they often have a kernel of a good idea in there which indicates what might have been if the author had been more aware.

He isn't talking about any old amateur product. He is talking specifically about ones created without awareness of the RPG world outside of D&D.

Yes, that's clear.

Quote from: noisms;612826It is just an essay, sure. But there's nothing wrong with writing (and reading) essays that put a new spin on things. I also think the core principle at work is important: if you want to be a good game designer, play lots of games of all different types, so that you know what is out there and what isn't, and you gain a clearer idea of what needs to be done.

I wouldn't argue to the contrary to knowing your market / audience being important.

In the case of these products, if they derived most of their content from tropes found in D&D, then maybe that's the point. The authors probably liked D&D and wanted to make a better D&D - his "patch" analogy seems about right.

Edwards feels its heartbreaking that there are a couple of good nuggets in a tasteless, regurgitated stew of D&D. I get that.  But many different types of amateur works are derivative and satisfying to the author, and are marketing failures because they weren't crafted to sell.

Quote from: Lynn;612896Yes, that's clear.



I wouldn't argue to the contrary to knowing your market / audience being important.

In the case of these products, if they derived most of their content from tropes found in D&D, then maybe that's the point. The authors probably liked D&D and wanted to make a better D&D - his "patch" analogy seems about right.

Edwards feels its heartbreaking that there are a couple of good nuggets in a tasteless, regurgitated stew of D&D. I get that.  But many different types of amateur works are derivative and satisfying to the author, and are marketing failures because they weren't crafted to sell.

I don't think he's saying that there is no value in those games because they are derivative and only satisfying to the author - actually he encourages people to play them.

And I think it's a more fundamental point than just knowing your audience/market. It's about being a good game designer; the more games you play, and the broader your experience, the better your games are likely to be. This is true in pretty much any creative field (actually any area of human endeavour, really).

The heartbreak comes when you realise these people are mortgaging their houses to put out a lavish hardback of a product they believe in to a degree that dwarfs the interest of their market.

Quote from: noisms;613142And I think it's a more fundamental point than just knowing your audience/market. It's about being a good game designer; the more games you play, and the broader your experience, the better your games are likely to be. This is true in pretty much any creative field (actually any area of human endeavour, really).

I don't disagree, just that this essay doesn't go very far to prove that point.

Sure, he can point out that these games are extensively drawn from D&D underpinnings by virtue of their mechanics, have byzantine systems yet still have a few redeeming qualities. Not too much more than that though. There is no indication, for example, that he did any research into the development of these games to show that what the designers had in mind. Did they lack the key background that he suggests? Could be, but I don't believe that is demonstrated here. Did they want to make their own patched version of D&D? Could be - that is what is suggested because that is what they delivered. But even then the essay doesn't confirm actual intent or knowledge.

I agree that the broader your experience, the more personal assets you may draw on in your creative work. It is something Ive come to appreciate later in life about the liberal arts degree I have. More specific - having that experience doesn't necessarily translate to being able to deliver what your target audience wants. It isn't just knowing, it is knowing how to deliver that makes a designer of anything.

Amateurs at anything make things for their own pleasure or for the pleasure of a small group. A professional designer is designing with specific goals in mind for a client, customer or audience.

Quote from: Lynn;613237I don't disagree, just that this essay doesn't go very far to prove that point.

Sure, he can point out that these games are extensively drawn from D&D underpinnings by virtue of their mechanics, have byzantine systems yet still have a few redeeming qualities. Not too much more than that though. There is no indication, for example, that he did any research into the development of these games to show that what the designers had in mind. Did they lack the key background that he suggests? Could be, but I don't believe that is demonstrated here. Did they want to make their own patched version of D&D? Could be - that is what is suggested because that is what they delivered. But even then the essay doesn't confirm actual intent or knowledge.

I agree that the broader your experience, the more personal assets you may draw on in your creative work. It is something Ive come to appreciate later in life about the liberal arts degree I have. More specific - having that experience doesn't necessarily translate to being able to deliver what your target audience wants. It isn't just knowing, it is knowing how to deliver that makes a designer of anything.

Amateurs at anything make things for their own pleasure or for the pleasure of a small group. A professional designer is designing with specific goals in mind for a client, customer or audience.

I think maybe we're approaching it from different angles. To me, it's an essay, not an attempt to prove anything. Like any essay, it is more a set of thoughtful and interesting musings than a piece of scientific research or a piece of advice on how to run an RPG business.

And on that level it works well - it encourages the reader to think again about games they may dismiss as being just regurgitations of D&D, while making the broader point that wide-ranging experience is good.

Quote from: noisms;613245I think maybe we're approaching it from different angles. To me, it's an essay, not an attempt to prove anything. Like any essay, it is more a set of thoughtful and interesting musings than a piece of scientific research or a piece of advice on how to run an RPG business.

Well, the only people who will bother reading it are those who understand the context.  Just recall those days of college yore, if you turned in an essay of thoughtful and interesting musings. To me, its a conversation at a coffee shop Id be fine with, or a blog entry, but something Id think about more before dedicating it to paper and calling it an essay