Quote from: Wil;610734We were going to opt for a third or fourth set of eyes, but we decided to just go for the gusto even if it was a bit long-winded. I really, really wanted to make sure that I covered all the bases if only to stop the cries of, "You haven't read it, you can't judge it!"

Regarding the libel/slander thing, I didn't make the point strongly enough that when I said "You can't[...]" I was really saying, "This is not something that usually ends well." It's like saying, "You can't mix chocolate and peanut butter!" or "One does not just walk into Mordor." A good editor probably would have caught that and made me strengthen it up so as not to cause confusion.

It was good. It was funny. I liked it, and I laughed a lot. It was one of the best things on rpg.net in years.

I just hope that the community lets the joke die with dignity, and doesn't keep dredging it up well past it's funny-by date (Like, say, the FATAL review).

Quote from: Ladybird;610823It was good. It was funny. I liked it, and I laughed a lot. It was one of the best things on rpg.net in years.

I just hope that the community lets the joke die with dignity, and doesn't keep dredging it up well past it's funny-by date (Like, say, the FATAL review).

I was mentally and emotionally prepared to let the joke die at least last week, but the guy just keeps giving and giving. That prompted me to do this: http://darquefyrebyrdpublishyng.blogspot.com/ I'm running out of steam on that one too though.

Quote from: Ladybird;610823I just hope that the community lets the joke die with dignity, and doesn't keep dredging it up well past it's funny-by date

The Purple Menace and dignity. My brain is getting to old for that sort of disconnect.

Quote from: mythusmage;606331That's what I've got for now. Responses?

you probably should reread the essay because you seemed to have missed most of the definition. Its not just games that "try to do D&D better". Its games made by people who are completely unaware of any RPGs besides D&D that tout their game as "superior, modern, and wholly original". See The Imagine Player's Guide for one of the best ever examples.

If it makes money , its not a heartbreaker. If it has a completely new and revolutionary system (such as Dragonlance Saga), its not a heartbreaker. If its a retro-clone or OSR hack, its not a heartbreaker.

The "heartbreak" element comes from two places: there is some small piece of brilliance or worthwhile rule buried in the dated and the earnestness or enthusiasm of the author who is obviously completely ignorant of the industry as a whole.

While I agree that there is room to apply the title to other games (see Vampire: The Underneath for an unabashed oWoD heartbreaker...almost), I don't think whitwashing the term to mean "any different take on D&d" is useful. In fact, since the Old School Renaissance began, I think perhaps the term is no longer a valid one for most games. Things have changed since the late 90s/early aughts. whats old is new again.

Quote from: TristramEvans;612740whats old is new again.

No, no it really isn't.

Quote from: The Traveller;612742No, no it really isn't.

Yes, of course it is. Try picturing Dungeon Crawl Classics trying to get on the shelves of a retailer in the late 90s.

Quote from: TristramEvans;612743Yes, of course it is. Try picturing Dungeon Crawl Classics trying to get on the shelves of a retailer in the late 90s.

Doesn't make it new again. In the same way, there are huge arguments about magic users versus fighters hereabouts, and they weren't new thirty years ago. D&D rocks but jesus.

I really like that essay. I think it's the only one of Ron Edwards' screeds that makes any sort of sense. It's also the only one he wrote in which he comes across as a human being.

It's true that times have changed, but for the time and context in which it was written, it is a nice piece.

Quote from: The Traveller;612744Doesn't make it new again. In the same way, there are huge arguments about magic users versus fighters hereabouts, and they weren't new thirty years ago. D&D rocks but jesus.

Perhaps you're simply unfamiliar with that expression? Because thats exactly what it means.

Quote from: TristramEvans;612748Perhaps you're simply unfamiliar with that expression? Because thats exactly what it means.

Okay to put it another way, its not new to me again. I sincerely doubt its new to any of the participants either. I dunno, I think I'm suffering from a profound ennui with the whole affair.

Quote from: The Traveller;612750Okay to put it another way, its not new to me again. I sincerely doubt its new to any of the participants either. I dunno, I think I'm suffering from a profound ennui with the whole affair.

Well, it wouldn't be new to anyone whose played RPGs for longer than 30 years, sure. But those sorts of players (myself included) aren't the ones running out and buying new games for the most part.

So let's put it this way; is the game interesting? Can it be made interesting? Does it invite GM and player to get involved, eager to get involve? Do the mechanics make sense, are they well explained? Is the whole coherent? Does it encourage innovation while avoiding standardized, set piece play? Does the game, and its adventures, encourage the GM to make the game, the adventure their own, or do they foster rote, set piece, "read off the text" play?

My DJ SRD ever gets done (been taking awhile) I will encourage those who play DJ games to make the game their own, and not worry about whether it blends in perfectly with every session using those rules. So you don't run it like some uber JM (GM), as long as the players have fun.

Quote from: TristramEvans;612751Well, it wouldn't be new to anyone whose played RPGs for longer than 30 years, sure. But those sorts of players (myself included) aren't the ones running out and buying new games for the most part.

How do you know? Sales are after all in an extended decline.

Anyway that's not the point. None of this is a productive use of time, these endless tail chasing exercises lacking any hint of an original spark, gnawing over fat long turned to dust. The life and breath of the hobby is imagination, I leave it as an exercise for the reader to work out how much of that exists online. Honourable mentions excluded of course.

Don't mind me, its been a long week.

Quote from: mythusmage;606331That's what I've got for now. Responses?

Just reading this - http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/9/

All this tells me is that Ron is creating a term to identify derivative, and mostly amateur products. A popular, apparently original product that is easily cloned, will be cloned, though not always better than the original. That is not unique to RPGs.

I get the literary /archaelogical spin, and that the fantasy heartbreakers are like gaming pastiche - hence the article is an "essay" and not a "whitepaper".

"Fantasy Heartbreaker" seems like an awfully puffed up term, like "Web 2.0".

Quote from: Lynn;612807Just reading this - http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/9/

All this tells me is that Ron is creating a term to identify derivative, and mostly amateur products. A popular, apparently original product that is easily cloned, will be cloned, though not always better than the original. That is not unique to RPGs.

I get the literary /archaelogical spin, and that the fantasy heartbreakers are like gaming pastiche - hence the article is an "essay" and not a "whitepaper".

"Fantasy Heartbreaker" seems like an awfully puffed up term, like "Web 2.0".

It's subtler than that. The reason they're called "Heartbreakers" is quite specific - they're heartbreaking because of the love and effort put into them (which is for naught) and because they often have a kernel of a good idea in there which indicates what might have been if the author had been more aware.

He isn't talking about any old amateur product. He is talking specifically about ones created without awareness of the RPG world outside of D&D.

It is just an essay, sure. But there's nothing wrong with writing (and reading) essays that put a new spin on things. I also think the core principle at work is important: if you want to be a good game designer, play lots of games of all different types, so that you know what is out there and what isn't, and you gain a clearer idea of what needs to be done.