jibba's post here have me thinking about the "small" details of designing my game. This post in particular:

Quote from: jibbaIts more than that though.
The spells in 1e are there for in game reasons. An invisible bulter than can fetch your slippers make tea, iron your newspaper is just the sort of thing a wizard ought to have.

So the spells are not plot spells because of the games organic growth. What you have is a pot of spells that have evolved because the game evolved and was not formed whole cloth.
This is the reason for stuff like Tenser's floating disc, and its hte reason why 4e for example removed the 'piontless stuff'.

If you go back to the inspiration for the spells, Dying Earth, you will find numerous spells that make the Wizard's life easier. They are translated into the game because the game tries to create a world.

So the spell comprehend languages exists because its a spell that a wizard would create and use a lot not becuase it fulfils a useful gap ion a wizards arsenal. Yes in play its going to be useless because a plot is never designed such that if you don't find the scroll in room 3 or you are not able to read it then you have no idea what to do or where to go next. That is possibly 'realistic' but its also poor design. You can eliviate the poorness of it or play in a sandbox with lots of similar hooks that can be followed or not.

So when I design a new spell I try to work out where and why it first developed and then try to find an interesting use for it. The Unseen servant for example happens to be a magical invisible creature who can follow quite complex instructions and carry 30lbs of weight. because he can not be damaged expect by magic he is perfect for removing mundane traps. He wasn't designed to be the ideal minesweeper but he is great at it.
So Alberlard my high level mage created Albelard's Maddening Massage. A spell that causes a number of disembodied hands to come into being that act as a distraction they basically poke, twist, nudge and annoy the target, they tie shoelaces together, empty pockets, pour out the contents of potion bottles and undo straps and remove clothing. Now in D&D terms this effect is devastating. It prevents spell casting, destroys or loses magic items, reduces amour class etc etc
Now it emerged from Albelard's Erotic Massage which was itself developed because Wizard academies are notoriously male dominated places ....

So spells in D&D were never diesigned to complement the system. They weren't designed to enabel play or to complement the Pillars of exploration, roleplay and Combat. They were simply things that felt like the sort of things that Wizards would have or create spells to be able to do.
Perhaps a lot of Wizards end up with Sleep, Charm, Fly, Invisibility, FireBall but these are really the boring spells.

has been following me all day.

I still hold that the abilities he's describing are mostly "background" things but I admit that I like them. I also realize that "Albelard's Erotic Massage" should not prevent or make it harder to get "Fireball". My developing system doesn't use "prepared spells" or "spell books" and I can easily set abilities like this up as a "give away" kind of thing (a no cost ritual perhaps). In either case this thread is aimed particularly at jibba but I'm open to other people's input.

TL: DR: Question is what "domestic powers" or relatively minor abilities/spells do/have/would you like to see developed in a game? Do you have any particular examples or fun little concepts? If so feel free to share'em.

As far as favourite "domestic" spells go, this isn't an RPG but a fiction example but Galger's Jar Opener (from the novel With A Single Spell) "opens any container a man can hold in one hand"...by summoning a huge demonic thing that will however only open jars.

For stupid cantrips, Stick is fun (causes a object up to 5 pounds to attach to something). The original 1st Ed. AD&D cantrips were also not bad e.g. there are spells that grow hair on objects, make illusions that are only two-dimensional, kill bugs, or create salt (which it notes can be handy against giant slugs).

The cantrips list from the 1E Unearthed Arcana is nothing but this.

Quote from: daniel_ream;579606The cantrips list from the 1E Unearthed Arcana is nothing but this.

Not familiar with it. Might you share some of the ones you remember/like most?

Quote from: MGuy;579607Not familiar with it. Might you share some of the ones you remember/like most?

http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/char/spell001.html

In my homebrew all spells can be learnt by anyone able to learn spells. However each spell has a difficulty and the efficasy depends on the level of the caster.

So a Fireball is quite hard (difficulty 4 on a scale of 1 -10 ) and a low level caster will produce a baseball sized ball of flame whereas an experienced caster might produce one 3 feet across...

So these domestic type spells tend to be easy to cast but the sacle of them can become quite relevant.

Poligars Professional Polishing for example will polish one object to a mirrored shine. At higher levels it can polish more objects or can polish something to a fantastic degree a sheet of coppoer polished to an extreme layer can reflect a Prismatic spray for example.

Here's another link for the 1st Ed. cantrips, with fuller descriptions. Doesn't include the 'minor illusion' cantrips though.
http://www.frontiernet.net/~jamesstarlight/CantripsOrisons.html
 
EDIT: unrelated to that, Advanced Fighting Fantasy had a list of Minor Magic spells too. I found the list (originally in the Blacksand! sourcebook) reproduced here.
http://advancedfightingfantasy.co.uk/rules_spells_minor_magic.html

A lot of items/spells that duplicate modern technology are a must.  

A device or spell to heat water (for bathing) would be probably the first thing that I research if I were a wizard in D&D land.  

Spells that keep things cool to ice-cold would be handy, for sure.  

Mending is already a cantrip that would be pretty useful - no reason to be wearing ratty robes.  Better yet is if you have a chest that casts the spell on anything put inside.  

Of course, prestidigiation deserves mentioning.  It can turn plain grits into a taste sensation.  The fact that the wizard survives on only gruel doesn't have to be a bad thing.  Putting that spell on a wooden spoon (for cooking) could let you flavor your boiled skunk into something much more appetizing.

I've created magic items that are for domestic use (or for comfort when you're not at home). Rolemaster also has a lot of them.

Popinjay's Garment

This is a mutable garment that during the hours of darkness cleans itself and changes into a new form. Thus insuring that you are always dressed well!

Each night, roll d12 (choose colour and fashion at your whim)

1. Silk Shirt.
2. Wollen Jumper.
3. Velvet Hat.
4 Leather Trousers.
5. Mittens/Gloves.
6. Silk Scarf/Cravat
7. Waxed Coat.
8. Fur Coat.
9. Thermal Vest.
10. Patterned Waist-coat.
11. Blazer.
12. Leather Boots.

Slobs Box of Refreshments

This box is full of small compartments. Overnight each one fills with small amounts of foodstuff. The compartments contain things ranging from a ripe tomato, to a handful of sweets, a hunk of cheese, a spoonful or two of porridge with jam in it, to a hard-boiled egg, a chicory stick and a rasher of bacon.

Home Comforts

This is a range of items meant to give you the comfort of home when travelling.

Handkerchief Tent

A small kerchief that tranforms into a 2-man tent.

Folding Chair

A small wooden cube that unfolds into a leather upholstered armchair.

Bathing Cup

A copper cup that transforms into a copper bath. As an added bonus it heats water placed into it to a comfortable bathing temperature.

Be mindful that removing all the non-combat spells and "balancing" the fighter (despite any good intentions), lead to 4e.

Quote from: One Horse Town;579742I've created magic items that are for domestic use (or for comfort when you're not at home). Rolemaster also has a lot of them.

Popinjay's Garment

This is a mutable garment that during the hours of darkness cleans itself and changes into a new form. Thus insuring that you are always dressed well!

Each night, roll d12 (choose colour and fashion at your whim)

1. Silk Shirt.
2. Wollen Jumper.
3. Velvet Hat.
4 Leather Trousers.
5. Mittens/Gloves.
6. Silk Scarf/Cravat
7. Waxed Coat.
8. Fur Coat.
9. Thermal Vest.
10. Patterned Waist-coat.
11. Blazer.
12. Leather Boots.

Slobs Box of Refreshments

This box is full of small compartments. Overnight each one fills with small amounts of foodstuff. The compartments contain things ranging from a ripe tomato, to a handful of sweets, a hunk of cheese, a spoonful or two of porridge with jam in it, to a hard-boiled egg, a chicory stick and a rasher of bacon.

Home Comforts

This is a range of items meant to give you the comfort of home when travelling.

Handkerchief Tent

A small kerchief that tranforms into a 2-man tent.

Folding Chair

A small wooden cube that unfolds into a leather upholstered armchair.

Bathing Cup

A copper cup that transforms into a copper bath. As an added bonus it heats water placed into it to a comfortable bathing temperature.

Those are great

I have this book which is a variation on the portable hole type deal.
It has a number of double page pop-up illustrations. You open up the illustration of the carpenters tool kit and you can reach in and pull out carpenters tools, you turn to the page with the roast dinner there is a roast dinner, you turn to the page with bowl of warm water and a razor and shaving soap , etc etc
There is a list of random rolls when you open each page. Then they are set and you can go back to them at a whim.

I have always personally disliked the 'domestic' spells, excluding a few.  The things that Cantrips can accomplish even tend towards being relatively elaborate compared to how simple many higher level spells are.

There is the 'manipulating the primal forces of the Earth' Wizard which exists in the same skin as the 'I pull rabbits out of hats' Wizard, and it doesn't work for me.  If I can do some of the things I can with 'domestic' spells then I really need them to translate thematically across the entire list of spells.

If I can summon an invisible butler at low levels to bring me my slippers, then I don't see any particular reason I can't summon an invisible assassin to do my bidding at the same level or only slightly higher ones, but I can't for the most part.  Not without shenanigans.  

Why can't I summon an army of invisible stock brokers to handle my portfolio that generates income independent of my adventuring career since I can imbue magical energy with the knowledge of how to maintain a mansion, but no other skill set at all. Or similarly how I can transmute anything into anything, except the heavily restricted ability to transmute things into other things that have a monetary value.

The things you can and can't do with magic need to be consistent, and in D&D they are generally not.  Gary Gygax had an absolutely terrible sense of humor (go read the spell components; Scrying required you to construct a television and I'm not kidding) and that translated into a lot of 'rabbits from hats' type spells that don't mesh with the general theme of magic beyond them.  I'm sure the issue of too many people with too many ideas of what 'magic' should be working on things from there, and only really having two spellcasting classes to fit all possible ideas into didn't help either.

If you can summon Unseen Servant as a 1st level spell, then I want to know why I can't summon Unseen Sweatshop Worker, and Unseen Mildly Skilled Craftsmen as well.  For that matter I don't think the expression is 'Comfort is the mother of invention', so 'domesticity' is going to be far down the list compared to money, social power and sex.

To put it more succinctly I don't think the general thrust would be to have spells that mimic the lifestyle of the wealthy, as much as they would simply generate wealth, which doesn't happen in D&D until high levels for entirely gamist reasons.

The easy solution for me is to avoid the Hat Tricks model of magic altogether when homebrewing.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;580267I have always personally disliked the 'domestic' spells, excluding a few.  The things that Cantrips can accomplish even tend towards being relatively elaborate compared to how simple many higher level spells are.

There is the 'manipulating the primal forces of the Earth' Wizard which exists in the same skin as the 'I pull rabbits out of hats' Wizard, and it doesn't work for me.  If I can do some of the things I can with 'domestic' spells then I really need them to translate thematically across the entire list of spells.

If I can summon an invisible butler at low levels to bring me my slippers, then I don't see any particular reason I can't summon an invisible assassin to do my bidding at the same level or only slightly higher ones, but I can't for the most part.  Not without shenanigans.  

Why can't I summon an army of invisible stock brokers to handle my portfolio that generates income independent of my adventuring career since I can imbue magical energy with the knowledge of how to maintain a mansion, but no other skill set at all. Or similarly how I can transmute anything into anything, except the heavily restricted ability to transmute things into other things that have a monetary value.

The things you can and can't do with magic need to be consistent, and in D&D they are generally not.  Gary Gygax had an absolutely terrible sense of humor (go read the spell components; Scrying required you to construct a television and I'm not kidding) and that translated into a lot of 'rabbits from hats' type spells that don't mesh with the general theme of magic beyond them.  I'm sure the issue of too many people with too many ideas of what 'magic' should be working on things from there, and only really having two spellcasting classes to fit all possible ideas into didn't help either.

If you can summon Unseen Servant as a 1st level spell, then I want to know why I can't summon Unseen Sweatshop Worker, and Unseen Mildly Skilled Craftsmen as well.  For that matter I don't think the expression is 'Comfort is the mother of invention', so 'domesticity' is going to be far down the list compared to money, social power and sex.

To put it more succinctly I don't think the general thrust would be to have spells that mimic the lifestyle of the wealthy, as much as they would simply generate wealth, which doesn't happen in D&D until high levels for entirely gamist reasons.

The easy solution for me is to avoid the Hat Tricks model of magic altogether when homebrewing.

I totally agree with your premise but not with your outcome.

I totally agree with the if I can summon and invisible bulter then why can't he poison my enemy or carry a blade or whatever, so I allow it.
You do get this of course in D&D to a degree. Invisible Stalker, or to yout other points Bibgy's Dextorous digits, Bigby's Construction Crew etc etc but its limited by level becuase spells in D&D are limited by the effect they can have.
Alberesh's Maddening Massage ended up as a 5th or 6th level spell because of its effect in play. It can destroy potions, it can disrupt spell casting, it can disarm your oponent drop wands down gratings etc etc so its a very powerful spell in a game world constructed so heavily on 'stuff'. In "magic" terms its no more complex that Bigby's Dextrous digits a 2nd level spell that creates a pair of hands used for stuff like magical experimentation

So in my homebrew game where anyone can learn any spell and spells have no levels they have diffculty and effect based on level the Unseen Servant spell (Secican's Surreptitious Servant) can be used by a high level caster to do much more so a 10th level caster could use it to lift an object weighing 300lbs for each mana spent per round, so you could use it to lift a 200lb Wizard and carry him about for a mana per round. Or you can use it to do things further from the wizard without their oversight, so with a high enough level and enough mana spent the Unseen servant effectively becomes an invisible assasin. (Actually a summoner would do that better as they could summon an invisible demon and geas it to perfom that act which is more mana efficient and better as the demon is smart and not an automoton but I digeress...).

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;580267I have always personally disliked the 'domestic' spells, excluding a few. The things that Cantrips can accomplish even tend towards being relatively elaborate compared to how simple many higher level spells are.
 
There is the 'manipulating the primal forces of the Earth' Wizard which exists in the same skin as the 'I pull rabbits out of hats' Wizard, and it doesn't work for me. If I can do some of the things I can with 'domestic' spells then I really need them to translate thematically across the entire list of spells.
 
If I can summon an invisible butler at low levels to bring me my slippers, then I don't see any particular reason I can't summon an invisible assassin to do my bidding at the same level or only slightly higher ones, but I can't for the most part. Not without shenanigans.
 
Why can't I summon an army of invisible stock brokers to handle my portfolio that generates income independent of my adventuring career since I can imbue magical energy with the knowledge of how to maintain a mansion, but no other skill set at all. Or similarly how I can transmute anything into anything, except the heavily restricted ability to transmute things into other things that have a monetary value.
 
The things you can and can't do with magic need to be consistent, and in D&D they are generally not. Gary Gygax had an absolutely terrible sense of humor (go read the spell components; Scrying required you to construct a television and I'm not kidding) and that translated into a lot of 'rabbits from hats' type spells that don't mesh with the general theme of magic beyond them. I'm sure the issue of too many people with too many ideas of what 'magic' should be working on things from there, and only really having two spellcasting classes to fit all possible ideas into didn't help either.
 
If you can summon Unseen Servant as a 1st level spell, then I want to know why I can't summon Unseen Sweatshop Worker, and Unseen Mildly Skilled Craftsmen as well. For that matter I don't think the expression is 'Comfort is the mother of invention', so 'domesticity' is going to be far down the list compared to money, social power and sex.
 
To put it more succinctly I don't think the general thrust would be to have spells that mimic the lifestyle of the wealthy, as much as they would simply generate wealth, which doesn't happen in D&D until high levels for entirely gamist reasons.
 
The easy solution for me is to avoid the Hat Tricks model of magic altogether when homebrewing.

Interesting points, that need thinking about when constructing a magic system. There do tend to be a lot of metagame limitations built into magic systems. Trying to use real physics TM as a starting point would be interesting but tricky. The same book that had Galger's Jar Opener above also had a 0-level spell which created permanent massive dead magic zones - which was however uncommon knowledge because the Wizards' Guild had vigorously repressed it. Various other spells had various loopholes that could be exploited by a clever wizard to do nasty things as well, but with the main limitation being that most wizards had no idea of the exact drawbacks. Which worked fairly reasonably in the setting (IMHO) but which would be hard to do in an RPG just because you'd need to keep most of the information on how spells worked away from the players.
 
On monetary systems, of course a monetary system needs to be built on something thats' scarcity so if gold could be created with magic, it wouldn't be used as a currency. You could imagine a world where gold is everywhere and they have to use something else as a currency, of course.

Quote from: Wolf, Richard;580267If you can summon Unseen Servant as a 1st level spell, then I want to know why I can't summon Unseen Sweatshop Worker, and Unseen Mildly Skilled Craftsmen as well.

One obvious explanation for this (and one used in some other games) is that the Unseen Servant can't do anything that you yourself don't know how to do, less a significant amount of finesse and/or speed because you're essentially programming a set of invisible magical waldoes.

Anyone can open a door, carry a teacup, or sweep a floor with minimal physical skill.  Sewing a garment or forging a nail is a different matter, and I can see a cogent argument for the wizard casting the spell needing to have those skills, not just the wizard creating the spell, which would explain why Unseen Blacksmith isn't a commonly known spell.

Really, the problem here is that D&D magic is largely effect-based.  It's "I want a spell that does X, so that should be about level Y" rather than "the laws of magic work like this, therefore the possible things one can do with magic flow from those laws, with the difficulty and efficacy of specific spells following on appropriately".[1]


[1] "Emulation" and "Immersion", my ass.

I agreee with everying on this page of the thread. Everything I was gonna say got said already, primarily in jibba's and daniel's posts.

Related fantasy economy thread