[Going forward, I'm restricting myself to starting one thread a day. That way, people can more easily keep up. This is today's, posted roughly 24 hours after the last.]

Alright, I've done several "getting to know the system" posts, most of which are intended to describe unique facets of the game: the 5-Stage campaign model, a meta-campaign Destiny mechanic, and a reformulated notion of what Initiative is.

Hopefully, the novelty and quality of those ideas has elevated me far enough above the level of "ignorant Internet RPG hack" to give me some space to start posting some less than provocative, but necessary material without losing people's interest.

So, as the title may indicate, this thread is about the most basic part of the system: die rolling and success determination. Be warned, they aren't intended to be incandescently brilliant ideas that will set the net afire with an enthusiasm the likes of which Western Civilization has never seen. They are intended to put the game on a solid, and solidly traditional, footing.

Let's get started, shall we?

Dice

The game runs off 2 10-sided dice, numbered 0 to 9. The game also has attributes and associated skills. (More about them in another thread.) Higher levels in attributes or skills is better. Higher rolls are better.

In general, higher is better. Unless it's aimed at you.

[This exclusive use of d10's is why I'm using a d10 to track the Advantage bonus for Initiative. The dice are already there, and already numbered from 0-9, so why not use what's available?]

Each d10 a different color. One is the hot dice, one the cold dice.

[This dice system originated as a substitute for Torg's bonus number table, removing the need to roll a d20 and check a table every single skill total. For "Storm Knights" games ran using Destiny, the traditional die colors are red for hot and blue for cold. Hence the colored text.]

To generate a Skill or Attribute total, you roll the 2 d10's and discard the higher dice. If you kept the hot dice, add the number to the skill or attribute to get a total. If you kept the cold dice, subtract it. If the two dice are equal, you get a bonus of +0.

This number, + or -, is called the bonus number.

Examples:

Hot 5, Cold 9. Discard Cold, keep Hot. Bonus number of +5.
Hot 2, Cold 1. Discard Hot, keep Cold. Bonus number of -1.
Hot 9, Cold 9. Discard both. Bonus number of +0.

(In terms of probabilities, this is identical to 1d10 - 1d10, but simpler and quicker. Nearly any gamer can tell at a glance which of two identical dice is larger. Set that one aside, and add or subtract the number on the "kept" dice. Simple, nearly instantaneous, obvious.)

Success and Failure

In general, the game is built around comparing two different numbers. For many checks, it is a skill check versus a Difficulty Number. The Difficulty to find one's dropped car keys in a large parking lot at night, for example.

The players generates a bonus number and adds it to their skill to get a skill total. Say, a skill of 10 and a bonus of -5. The Skill Total is 5, pretty low. (I'll get into the exact scale later. It's not important right now.)

The GM then compares this skill total to the Difficulty Number to get the result. You want a high result. If your skill total is equal to or less than the Difficulty, you fail. If the total is higher than the Difficulty, every 3 points earns you 1 Success Level. This indicates how well you did.

+1 to +3 = 1 SL
+4 to +6 = 2 SL
+7 to +9 = 3 SL

And so on. This means you have to beat the Difficulty Number by at least 1 to succeed at all. In combat, ties go to the defender.

Difficulty numbers are determined differently for different situations. The GM can modify them based on the given situation. (Again, exact details on this will come later.) Higher Difficulty numbers are more difficult. Lower Difficulty numbers, easier.

Most times, the Difficulty Number is a constant: it doesn't get a bonus number. In some circumstances,  the GM gets to generate a bonus number (with his own hot and cold dice) and add it to the Difficulty Number.

There are a couple of more complex rules, like "Doubles are Trouble" and "Repeating Dice", but I'll get to them in another post. This is the most basic of the basics of the system.

Why?

Why use this system? For one, it's easy. Roll the dice, get a bonus number. Add that to the skill. Compare the skill total it to the Difficulty Number to get Success Levels. I'm sure there's other, simpler systems out there but that one's pretty straightforward.

Another benefit is this: bonuses and penalties are commutative. A +1 DN (making the check harder) is exactly the same as -1 to the skill check. A +3 to the skill check is exactly the same as -3 to the DN (making it easier to succeed).

This vastly simplifies situational modifiers. No worries about removing dice from a pool, or requiring more "successes", or more "matches."

Think it should be harder? Add to the DN or give the player a penalty to their skill. Think it should be easier? Lower the DN or give the player a bonus. It all comes out in the wash.

That's it on the basics of the Dice system. I'll get to Attributes (and maybe skills) in no less than 24 hours.

[Thanks for getting to the bottom, if you did. Snark and showmanship aside, I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to read my stuff. I hope it provided some value, if only because it was mildly entertaining. Here's looking to the future.]

Bizarre as it may seem, a lot of people have trouble with negative integer math.  I don't, but I find the process of adding and subtracting modifiers irritating as all get out (I played too much GURPS/HERO back in the day).

This is functionally no different than some FATE iterations' use of d6-d6, but I find that there's a lot of discreet steps in here that make the system take longer than one might suspect.

1. Roll the dice
2. Compare the dice
3. Determine if the modifier is positive or negative.
4. Add the modifier to your score
5. Compare your score to a TN
6. (Score - TN) modulo 3 to determine how well you did

I think this is way too complicated, especially step 6.  I've played games with people in the past with slight dyscalculia, and they would be completely lost.

Consider for comparison the dice mechanics of D6Legend:  All dice have success symbols on four sides and failure symbols on two sides.  Roll dice equal to your skill + stat.  Failures cancel successes; pair the dice and sweep the pairs.  Look at what's left:  All failures (or no dice left) is a failure.  All successes is a success.  The number of dice left is how bad your success/failure is.  You can add in the Ghost/Force/Legend die if you want, but that's the base of it.  It's very visual, very fast, and requires almost no math (integer addition to get your dice pool is about it; number of dice left is something most people can just see without having to count for <5-6)

Note that the probabilities of this dice mechanic are opaque and messy to calculate; choose your priorities.

Again, I appreciate the feedback.

Quote from: daniel_ream;500573This is functionally no different than some FATE iterations' use of d6-d6, but I find that there's a lot of discreet steps in here that make the system take longer than one might suspect.

My only response is that playtesting would reveal if this is too cumbersome a method. I do have playtesting feedback from other people who have run games using this method, going back to 2005 when I posted the first version of this on the Torg list.

But...

All the people who playtested this were used to an even more cumbersome system for Torg: d20, read roll on a chart to get bonus, add/subtract bonus, compare to DN, find right table out of 15 or so, read result points on various tables/charts, apply results for those tables.

Playtesting has generally been positive. Noticing which dice is larger is almost immediate (d100 has trained many in this skill), having two distinct colors with strong "negative" and "positive" connotations makes knowing which is which very fast (like recognizing the color of a stoplight), and the math is simple: adding or subtracting 0-9.

That's all the player has to do, as the calculation of Success Levels is done by the GM, and that's pretty fast (especially after a few rolls).

I'm not saying you're wrong. In fact, I'm sure that for some people you're right. It's possible you're right about the majority of people.

But compared to nearly all the dice methods listed (for example) in bloody Johnson's thread, this one is amazingly simple in play.

Pick smaller. Recognize color. Add/subtract. Tell GM total.

It works for my players and those who've reported back to me. That is not a huge statistical universe, it's a limited audience and I know it. It may not work for anyone else.

Again, I'm not disregarding your comments. To the contrary, I'm making note of them.

Right now, what I'm thinking is that I'm going to open up the Alpha Test to anyone who's interested, and see if any of them mention the die method as a problem. At that point, I'll make a decision as to whether I need to change it or not.

Given the extent that this mechanic is integrated into the rest of the rules, changing it is akin to major surgery. Which I am willing to do, if it offers a clear benefit.

Interesting, I hadn't seen the hot/cold thing before but checking probabilities looks like you're right about it being the same as d10-d10.
Have rolled a few d10s here myself and I did find it a bit awkward (either with recognizing pairs as zeroes, or with the change to negative - after a few negatives in a row, I nearly forgot to not negativise one). After a few rolls it gets a bit easier, but yeah playtesting good.
 
If you did want to speed it up, 2d10 added together is the same curve as d10-d10...you just need to set target numbers at [attribute+11] instead of [attribute]. Just a thought since I don't know what other mechanics depend on this.

Just a note on the "divide by 3 thing": this is the exact same level of complexity as Savage Worlds, one of the more popular systems on the market today. (Calculating is against TN 4, usually, and every 4 after that is a "raise".)

We use the finger-counting method. For example, say you have a result of 11. You start counting.

"1," stick out thumb on right hand, "2, 3, 4," stick out index finger, "5, 6, 7," stick out middle finger, "8, 9, 10," ring finger, "11."

4 fingers stuck out? 4 Success Levels.

This produces the exact same results as division, as remainders don't matter, but is much quicker. After trying it a few times, the counting becomes automatic.

In any case, when comparing complexity, if I can come in at slightly simpler than Savage Worlds, it's probably simple enough for a majority of any potential audience. IMHO.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;500661Interesting, I hadn't seen the hot/cold thing before

The Lister who suggested it to me said it was used in the "Babylon 5" RPG. I have no way of verifying this.

The terms "hot and cold" are my own, as is the color choice. "Red and blue" is a thematic coloration within Torg, and I chose the dice to match that.

Were I to use this in any other Destiny campaign, I'd use different colors. For example, white as hot / black as cold for a "angels vs. demons war."

Blue with white tints (multi-color, like produced by Chessex) as hot and black w/ slight green highlights as cold for a Pirate campaign (representing the color of the waves and the crushing depths of the sea.)

Hot and cold would thus represent positive and negative elements in the world, the colors evoking the themes of the campaign.

Were I a company, I'd make custom dice for each game world, tailoring the colors around that setting. All the lettering would be in the same color, probably silver (except where hard to see), to make a uniformity of Trade Dress.

But I am not.

EDIT: given the problem matching type colors across a range of dice, maybe replacing the "0" with a 0-like but unique character.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;500661Have rolled a few d10s here myself and I did find it a bit awkward (either with recognizing pairs as zeroes, or with the change to negative - after a few negatives in a row, I nearly forgot to not negativise one

The key is color. If you use a consistent color for all or nearly all players, each color becomes associated with "Oh shit!" or "Hells, yeah!" very quickly.

Red? Hells Yeah?
Blue? Oh, Shit!
The same? 0, but "Doubles are Trouble", man. (Fumble and other such rules being built around Doubles. For "Storm Knights", disconnection.)

It's like traffic lights: you know what red, amber, and green mean immediately, without needing to think. After a few rolls of the same two colors, it becomes instinctive. Chosing appropriate colors is important as well.

Technically, any two colored d10's will do, but in practice having all the players use the same colors and establishing the colors as thematic elements makes the process instantaneous, as instantaneous as recognizing the colors and meaning of a traffic signal.

EDIT:

In fact, if you played a game where each players were from different factions, like a WoD analogue where some were vampires, others weres, others mages, you could have distinct dice sets for each race, two colors representative of that Factions's themes. Or a chivalric fantasy game, where each noble House had its own colors (purple and yellow, white and green). The colors of the dice reinforce the identity of the character. That could be cool.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;500700The Lister who suggested it to me said it was used in the "Babylon 5" RPG. I have no way of verifying this.

Thanks for that...I'll have to make note of it.
A couple of rpgnet reviews mention that the Babylon Project uses two d6s (positive and negative) ...thought this one suggests they used the higher of the two dice, rather the lower die... (?!!)
 http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_2194.html
 
While searching I found another thread as well where someone complained about players having trouble with the mechanics in the B5 game, though he doesn't go into the specifics.
http://forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-177226.html

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;500742A couple of rpgnet reviews mention that the Babylon Project uses two d6s (positive and negative) ...thought this one suggests they used the higher of the two dice, rather the lower die... (?!!)

Yeah, looking back at the original thread, all the poster said was:

Quote"read the smaller of the dice only, add if one colour, subtract if the other colour" is very easy to use in practice (comparison instead of addition or subtraction), and gives an identical distribution.

All the rest—using 2d10's, the terms hot and cold, associating each with an evocative color (red hot, blue cold), and the repeating dice to make it like Torg, that was all me.

In other words, I took his spare description, and did the work to turn it into a dice mechanic that fit Torg and fits Destiny. That makes me feel better. That's innovation, rather than just ripping off the B5 RPG.

Is it in B5? I only have his word for it. In a later post he said:

Quotegamers often find that a "read only one" system really is as fast and easy as I suggested. I've seen it quite a few times, especially back when I ran The Babylon Project at a convention three years running. (TBP was the first system I encountered using the mechanic I described.)

So, I only have his word it was part of that game.

Still, "roll two dice, discard larger, add or subtract smaller" is quick, light, and easy to describe and apply. That's why I fleshed out the version I did for Torg.

Qin uses this system. Gives the dice thematic names of Yin and Yang.

A bit of conceptual sleight of hand may help some people to get past the negative integer issue. Hot is dynamic and causes change, while Cold is static and prevents change. So A Hot roll helps you change the situation, while a Cold roll does the opposite.

I like it.

Also be aware that 'opposed' rolls ( (d10 - d10) + (d10 - d10) ) are going to have a substantially flatter probability 'curve' than standard rolls (d10 - d10) and yet a wider range of possible results (18 vs 9). I mention it because it's one 'problem' I see pop up in designs like this (such as FATE) and it's very tricky to address.

Hi Jasyn. I followed you over the list so as to continue following your new little system

Quick question, when you roll the d10's do the 0 sides count as zero or ten?

I know ten is sort of the norm, but the way you said numbered from 0-9 kind of made me think it might be zero. That and the mention of using them to count the initiative advantage, where it is zero.

I bother asking because if it is zero, then the probabilities do not match d10-d10. Actually, they do, but with all the results shifted towards zero by one. Which also increases the odds of getting a total of zero from 10% to 28%. Which seems like a sizable distinction to me.

Of course, for all I know that's exactly what your going for. It would also have the side effect of making it possible to get a bonus number of zero without also rolling a fumble or whatever via doubles.


Also, I was thinking it might make more sense to say "find the lowest one, use it" rather than "find the highest one, set it aside, use the other one."


Other than that I think it looks good. Looking forward to a refresher on the exploding dice.

Quote from: salmelo;500842Hi Jasyn. I followed you over the list so as to continue following your new little system

Hi Salvador. I wondered if that was you. ("salmelo" showed up as the "latest user".)

Welcome, welcome.

Quote from: salmelo;500842Quick question, when you roll the d10's do the 0 sides count as zero or ten?

10. Also for the rerolls.

(0 for the Advantage bonus, but that's a wholly different mechanic.)

Quote from: salmelo;500842Which also increases the odds of getting a total of zero from 10% to 28%. Which seems like a sizable distinction to me.

Yeah, that's a big change. More than 1 roll out of 4, you get your base skill. And, your max is +-8, not 9.

That's probably not a system I'd enjoy. Running or playing.

Thanks for calculating the odds for me.

Quote from: salmelo;500842Also, I was thinking it might make more sense to say "find the lowest one, use it" rather than "find the highest one, set it aside, use the other one."

I'll make a note of that.

Quote from: salmelo;500842Other than that I think it looks good. Looking forward to a refresher on the exploding dice.

I'll get that posted ASAP.

Quote from: salmelo;500842I bother asking because if it is zero, then the probabilities do not match d10-d10. Actually, they do, but with all the results shifted towards zero by one. Which also increases the odds of getting a total of zero from 10% to 28%. Which seems like a sizable distinction to me.

For reference, here is the probability chart, numbers are the amount of rolls out of a possible 100 that give the indicated success result.


Result d10-d10 Hot / Cold Keep doubles
-9 1 0 0
-8 2 1 1
-7 3 2 2
-6 4 3 3
-5 5 4 4
-4 6 5 5
-3 7 6 6
-2 8 7 7
-1 9 8 8
0 10 28 19
1 9 8 9
2 8 7 8
3 7 6 7
4 6 5 6
5 5 4 5
6 4 3 4
7 3 2 3
8 2 1 2
9 1 0 1



Notes; it's impossible to score a result of +/-9, and your results will be much heavily skewed towards 0. The "keep doubles" column has doubles count as successes at that number - this skews your results more toward success.

I assume you've already got the skills / attributes scale settled, if you're deciding how much you need to beat the target for each success level. If not, that's something you may want to look into the results of; do some example tests using different success divisors and see which results you like the most (Especially using combat mechanics). You can also, obviously, dodge the entire issue by using a success divisor of 1 (eg, your levels of success are equal to how much you beat the target by).

Psychologically, people may find dividing by 4 easier than by 3 (Alternatively, it makes sense for SW to have 4 as it's success divisor, because that's the basic target number). I don't know if anyone has studied that.

When you are doing these tests, also, you don't need to roll dice, and in fact it would be advisable not to. Calculate a probability table like the one above, and you can tell the chance of getting a particular result and hence degrees of success.

Another thing you might want to consider is whether some tasks may need multiple levels of success, rather than just any; it gives you an extra way of adjudicating successes, but it does make the job of the GM harder. Adding the success divisor to the target number, mechanically, has the same effect as requiring a minimum of 1 level of success.

Hmm I'm not seeing a shift up to 28% for the zeroes ... unless I've charted this wrong somewhere, treating 0s as 10s looks fine...
 

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;500853Hmm I'm not seeing a shift up to 28% for the zeroes ... unless I've charted this wrong somewhere, treating 0s as 10s looks fine...

It was the opposite (treating 0's as 0's) that caused said shift. Which Jasyn has confirmed was not his intention.

Whoops, sorry salmelo. Reading comprehension fail on my part.
 
 
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While I'm here, on the /3 stage of the process: while Raises are a basic rule in Savage Worlds, I don't know of many mechanics that build off them. Damage is +1d6 regardless of # raises, and # raises seems mostly irrelevant on other rolls. It may be that most SW players just tell the GM what they rolled and the GM makes something up, without the GM bothering to do math.