I've never been happy with the Evolution of Dungeons and Dragons.  It has moved away from its war game roots towards collectable card games and now mmporpgs at a great cost to actual game play.  The following rough system draft harkens back to first edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons.  I consider it all to be open content under the SRD and claim no ownership of the material.

Creating A Character
     You create a character by rolling 3d6 for your Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma, and picking a race and character class.  There are no other legal methods, but don't worry about a bad set of rolls, because you can fix them up later.

Stat Bonuses are -1 per point under six and +1 per point over 15
Strength: increases chance to hit or damage with any given attack
Dexterity: reduces chance to be hit and increases chance to hit
Constitution: increases hit points and saves verses poison and disease
Intelligence: increases number of languages spoken, arcane spells per day, and resists confusion
Wisdom: increases perception, divine spells per day, and saves verses spells
Charisma: increases reaction rolls, maximum number of followers, and loyalty base

Hit Points: A character automatically gets their maximum hit points for their race plus any class hit dice.

Followers: A character can have up to three followers plus their Charisma bonus.  Their  Loyalty is ten plus their Charisma bonus.  Followers must be at least one level lower than their master.  Nobles, Clerics, and Wizards will only follow members of their own class.

Races
     Humans
          Hit Dice: d8
          Stats: +1 to any two
          Racial Abilities: Free Level in Commoner or Noble
          Racial Skills: Any Four

     Elves
          Stats: +1 Dexterity and Intelligence
          Hit Dice: d6
          Racial Abilities: Night Vision, Immortality, +5 to Resist Sleep and Charm
          Racial Skills: Long Bow, Long Sword, Stealth, Survival
 
     Dwarves
          Stats: +2 Constitution
          Hit Dice: d8
          Racial Abilities: Size -1, Dark Vision, Long Lived, +5 to resist Magic
          Racial Skills: Blacksmithing, Mining, Pick Axe, Appraisal

     Halflings
          Stats: +2 Dexterity, +1 Constitution, -2 Strength
          Hit Dice: d6
          Racial Abilities: Size -2, +5 to resist Corruption
          Racial Skills: Throwing, Stealth, Cooking, Gardening

Character Classes

Fighters
     +1 Hit Dice Per level
     +1 to Hit with all weapons per level
     1 extra attack for every +5 to hit
     3d8 x 10 gp at first level

Clerics
     +1 Hit Dice per level
     +1 to hit with faith appropriate weapons per two levels
     cast one spell level per day plus Wisdom bonus
     cast all faith appropriate divine spells
     3d6 x 10 gp at first level

Commoners
     +1 Hit Dice every two levels
     +1 to one Craft per level
     +1 to Farming and Gardening per level
     +1 to hit with Tools every two levels
     3d4 x 10 gp at first level

Thieves
     +1 Hit Dice every two levels.
     +1 to hit with shorts words, daggers, clubs, slings, and thrown daggers per level
     +1 to stealth, pick locks, disarm traps, pick pockets, hear noises and detect traps per level
     3d6 x 10 gp at first level
     
Nobles
     +1 Hit Dice every two levels
     +1 to hit per level with long swords, lances, maces, flails,
     +1 to Courtesy per level (reaction rolls from nobles)
     +1 to Maximum Followers and Loyalty Base per level
     3d12 x 10 gp at first level

Magic Users
     +1 Hit Dice every three levels
     +1 to hit with Staffs and Daggers every three levels
     Cast up to level in spell levels (add Intelligence bonus)
     must study spell book for 1 hour to regain one casting level
     knows Four first level arcane spells (add Intelligence bonus)
     3d4 x 10 gp at first level

Combat
     Initiative is rolled each round on 1d20 + Dexterity bonus.
     Movement Rates:
          Dwarves and Halflings 60
          Humans and Elves 90
          Horses 120

Attacking
     Compare the attacker's weapon to the defender's armour class on the attack table to find the number that must be rolled  to hit on 1d20.  Add the attacker's Dexterity bonus and Strength bonus to the die roll if they are trying to cleave armour.  Subtract the defender's Dexterity bonus and Shield bonus.  Size is also added or subtracted as appropriate.  A natural 1 always misses and a natural 20 always hits.

http://www3.telus.net/public/uncouths/Document2.pdf

Defending
     If a character chooses to they can reduce their bonus to hit with their weapon to reduce their opponent's chance to hit.

    If the attack hits roll the damage die appropriate to the weapon used.  The attacker's Strength Bonus can be added but will never increase the damage to more than twice the die type.  Note that this is because the character's own weapons are built to match their strength and size.  Weapons taken from others will only match their owner's strength.

Unarmed: 1d4 (max 8 points)
Short Sword, Dagger, Sling, Club, Arrows: 1d6 (max 12 points)
Mace, 1h Axe, 1h Swords, Light Crossbows: 1d8 (max 16 points)
2h Spears, Pole Arms, Heavy Crossbows: 1d10 (max 20 points)
2h Swords, 2h Axes, Mauls: 1d12 (max 24 points)

Mooks
     In big battles one hit dice monsters don't need to have their hit points tracked.  Just roll the damage and then their hit points.  If the damage is equal or greater than their hit points remove the figure, otherwise, don't.

Experience and Levels
     1 per (level) silver pieces spent on training (1 day per silver)
     10 times foe's level divided by own level for defeating foes
     Dungeon Level x 100 - own level x 10 per dungeon level survived
     It costs 1000 experience points to gain a level.

Serious question:

The Original D&D is available as a $5 PDF.  Why not just use that with a few of your own houserules?  Easier than typing.  Honestly.

No weapon verses armour type mods?  Weapons only doing a d6 flat?  Elves that can't ride horses?  Percentile theif's skills?  (well with a copy of Greyhawk anyhow)

There's never been an edition of D&D I've liked.  Not once.  In spite of the fact that there is an excellent game in there it always gets wrecked somehow.

That said I'd like to change the thread title to "BEHOLD MY INFINITE HUBRIS!!!".

Though, honestly the original title has the same meaning.

While I'm thinking about it, I notice that I never mentioned that you can level up your race to get a +1 in all your racial skills. Humans might be a touch too good in that respect.

Also elves can detect secret doors, I'm not sure if that's a skill or ability but I'd like to keep the concept that abilities are innate things that don't level up.

Dwarves can detect sloping passages.

I was thinking of prestige classes but then I realized that most are just class combinations.

Palladin = Noble + Cleric
Barbarian = Scout + Fighter
Ranger = Fighter + Scout

doh! and also, everyone can freely multiclass, as long as they spend a whole level worth of silver on training, your total level is the total of any class levels you have.

A character's physical hit points and heroic luck hitpoints are separate entities. You only get your first level hp as physical hits. In situations where you are asleep, bound, or otherwise unable to move you have to take the damage on the noodle.

Also:

Scout

+1 Hit Dice per two levels
+1 to hit with bows per level
+1 to Stealth, Tracking, Outdoor Survival, and land Navigation per level

Sailor
+1 Hit Dice per two levels
+1 to hit with cutlasses per two levels (arrr matey!)
+1 to Swimming, Climbing, Sailing, Rowing, and Sea Navigation per level

Good lord, there's a lot in there.

In brief:

1. I do like the races/classes integration quite a bit.

2. I suddenly realize how much I missed weapons vs. armor. However, what about natural armors (scales etc.). Don't say they all get their individual column.

3.

QuoteStat Bonuses are -1 per point under six and +1 per point over 15

No difference from 7 to 14? What is this, RIFTS?11??

4.

QuoteHit Points: A character automatically gets their maximum hit points for their race plus any class hit dice.

At the start? Or throughout? What are the class hit dice--the same as the racial ones? If yes to both questions, then Fighters = underpowered, no?

Reorx, how oldschool can you be?!

I mean, if you're into that, fine, but objectively your rules are...well, I'm not really sure if your post is serious.

Why don't you just play Hackmaster if it's nostalgia you seek?

There are seeds of interesting ideas for streamlining the game but it was cloaked in grognardly, Gygaxian nonsense. This idea was particularly bad.

Quote from: David JohansenStat Bonuses are -1 per point under six and +1 per point over 15

Why in hell would you go for this?

But I still think there were interesting ideas there. Have you checked very lite versions of D20? I believe Levi did one and I know James Hargrove did a really good one that is very streamlined. I forgot the names.

I think with more solid fundamentals, you could build your ideas into a good game for your needs.

I guess I should be clear about where I see D&D's strength.  D&D is a miniatures wargame with character advancement.  This isn't a bad thing.  Certainly it's the only circumstance under which I can imagine armour making you harder to hit and hit points increasing by the level not completely ruining a game.  This is a game intended to play fast with a couple hundred figures on the table that will have siege rules and naval combat rules lifted from the 1e DMG.

If that wasn't what I was after I'd go play Rolemaster or GURPS.

But for years I've ranted about D&D while saying it always bugs me that later editions run completely counter to the whole point of the thing.

This is the game where your party includes a dozen retainers and the fights are BIG.

In answer to some questions:

The reason I'm using AD&D stat bonuses is that it creates a stat range with no modifiers which is important to the type of game I'm making.  I could go with 3e mods though, it's always bugged me that C&C didn't.

Most animals are Armour Class: None or Leather or Cuirbolli, some fantastical creatures rate as chain, scale, or plate.  I really should redo the table to include damage for each weapon.  The weapon verses armour thing is important to me because the medieval period is all about the evolution of weapons and armour.  Keep in mind this is medieval wargame with fantasy added.  I've always thought that was a vital element of D&D's flavour.

The hit point thing:  Fighters get their racial Hit Die and a class Hit Die at first level as well as a +1 to hit with all weapons.  They're the only class with 2 Hit Dice at first level.  But they only get maximum hit points on their racial die.  This also means they get twice their Constitution bonus at first level.

I'll touch on spells briefly for a moment here. I want to get rid of spell effects that increase with the caster's level and instead allow spells to be cast at a higher level.

Cast a level 3 magic missile and you get three missiles but use three of your available casting levels. Similarly, a L3 FireBall does a whopping d12 in a 15' radius but cast at L6 it does 2d12. Why so little? Well for one thing, if you're in a tight corridor with nowhere to go it does that damage to your physical hit points and not your heroic luck.

Generally speaking there won't be spells that are impossible to survive. You'll always get a saving throw against Sleep and Charm spells. The spells will also follow a fairly rigid classification system with the intent that they be easier to manage in play without looking in the book. Writing a type and a letter code should give you everything you need.

For instance

Sleep: 5' radius L1, saving throw
Fireball: d12 ranged, 15' radius, L3
Magic Missile: d4, ranged L1
Bless: +1 bonus, 1 minute, L1

Quote from: David JohansenI really should redo the table to include damage for each weapon.  The weapon verses armour thing is important to me because the medieval period is all about the evolution of weapons and armour.

Given the level of abstraction, if you liked you could ditch variable weapon damage and simply roll the effect entirely into the weapon vs. armor numbers. (Same with bonuses to hit, although there's something to be said for the "feel" of getting a damage bonus based on strength.)

If you go with this idea then you could institute a simple critical rule of counting a 20 as a hit plus a bonus "to hit" roll to see if you get a second hit (and letting that go ad infinitum if so desired).

Quote from: Consonant DudeI believe Levi did one and I know James Hargrove did a really good one that is very streamlined. I forgot the names.

Everyone breaks down and does it eventually.  

I've done it half a dozen times but this is the first where I've actually used D&D's stats and classes and race assumptions and the core notion of armour making you harder to hit.  (which I mostly hate except in the limited context I've discussed)

I'm not looking for a simpler D&D, just one without the self defeating conflicting and redundant methodologies it runs into.

I'll also go into the stat bonus thing in more detail.  Palladium is brilliant.  Most people miss just how clever the set up is.  You never suffer any penalties for low rolls.  (except PE and ME) so if you have a couple it doesn't really undermine your ability to play a heroic character.  At worst it limits your occ choices.  Play a mercenary fighter with a 3 PE? I don't think so.  I'm not joking when I tell people that 1st edition Palladium Fantasy is the best edition of D&D.

The nice thing about the 6-14 dead zone set up from AD&D 1e is that most npcs won't have any modifiers at all.  This makes it dead easy to run.  In Palladium 1e you don't need to stat every npc, a class and a level gives you all their combat and skill information in a glance at the tables on the GM screen.

It's always tempting to make everything work like 1e AD&D thief's skills, with attenuating percentage gains at higher levels, but then, that's why I play Rolemaster.  MyD&D is intended to run the kind of big fights I would never run in Rolemaster.

While your ideas are still beyond me, may I humbly ask:
What about Heroscape?
Seems a lot easier, cleaner, with less expensive minitatures.

Besides, Hitpoint-heavy rules like yours would be exactly a reason I don't see a classical D&D hybrid as a sound solution to mass combat. Far to much bookkeeping and clumsy rules.

Quote from: Elliot WilenGiven the level of abstraction, if you liked you could ditch variable weapon damage and simply roll the effect entirely into the weapon vs. armor numbers. (Same with bonuses to hit, although there's something to be said for the "feel" of getting a damage bonus based on strength.)

If you go with this idea then you could institute a simple critical rule of counting a 20 as a hit plus a bonus "to hit" roll to see if you get a second hit (and letting that go ad infinitum if so desired).

Not a bad idea except that variable weapon damage is very conceptually core to D&D and my intent here is to be true to D&D without making a horrible game.  (if such a thing is possible...)  There won't be lots of funky 2d4 vs d8 vs d6+1 combinations though, they're interesting but of very limited actual utility.  Also they slow down the mass combat and it's all about the mass combat.

Quote from: EinzelgaengerWhile your ideas are still beyond me, may I humbly ask:
What about Heroscape?
Seems a lot easier, cleaner, with less expensive minitatures.

Besides, Hitpoint-heavy rules like yours would be exactly a reason I don't see a classical D&D hybrid as a sound solution to mass combat. Far to much bookkeeping and clumsy rules.

Err...why not Warhammer for which I have five painted armies?

The reason I've gone with racial hit dice types is so what were 2 and 3 hit dice monsters can be done with a single die allowing for a simple roll off with whole figure casualty removal for mooks (as I discussed).

Another thing you'll notice is no nerfed npc classes, which are the single worst feature of D&D 3e.

Also my ideas aren't so much beyond you as incoherent ramblings in any case.

Quote from: David JohansenErr...why not Warhammer for which I have five painted armies?

The reason I've gone with racial hit dice types is so what were 2 and 3 hit dice monsters can be done with a single die allowing for a simple roll off with whole figure casualty removal for mooks (as I discussed).

Another thing you'll notice is no nerfed npc classes, which are the single worst feature of D&D 3e.

Also my ideas aren't so much beyond you as incoherent ramblings in any case.

fair enough.
keep your d20 sharp!