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Other Games, Development, & Campaigns => Design, Development, and Gameplay => Topic started by: jadrax on July 01, 2014, 03:54:47 PM

Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: jadrax on July 01, 2014, 03:54:47 PM
So one of the things that intrigues me about oldschool D&D is the idea of Gold for XP, because its something I have never seen used at the table.

So assuming there is no module for this in the DMG,  I was thinking of using the following houserule:

QuoteAdvancement
You do not gain any experience for overcoming encounters.
For every 1 gp you spend on the following list, you gain 1 exp.
  • Personal Food, Drink and Lodgings
  • Donations to Temples or Charity
  • Personal Training or Entertainment


To give you some metrics, a comfortable lifestyle from the play test cost 50 gp a month, so 50 exp per month could be seen as the default pace of advancement.

However, like I say I have never used Gold as XP in play, so has anyone any feedback?
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Sacrosanct on July 01, 2014, 04:39:53 PM
rangers and druids never get XP? ;-)
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: jadrax on July 01, 2014, 04:52:57 PM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;763194rangers and druids never get XP? ;-)

Well yes, but do you think the system has any flaws? ;o)


It is an interesting point actually, Rangers and Druids do not get any discount on the Lifestyle table or immunity to its horribleness.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Sacrosanct on July 01, 2014, 04:57:26 PM
training is the only one that makes sense to me, to be honest.  Otherwise you'll end up with a bunch of drunk gamblers who are level 10 wizards and warriors ;-)
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Marleycat on July 01, 2014, 05:38:56 PM
Never did like gold for exp made it too easy to hire a bunch of redshirts to do what you should be doing in the first place. Which is removing a threat to the general populace more often then not that's why you get to keep what you find.

Removal or neutralizing doesn't only mean kill the threat by the way.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Bloody Stupid Johnson on July 01, 2014, 07:49:05 PM
Just having "1 XP per GP spent roleplaying" would probably cover most things. So this could include gold characters spend wooing sweethearts, extra GP buying fancy but not more useful gear by foppish nobles in the party who demand the best in life, etc. As well as training (seeking a teacher could be seen as RP here too).
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: robiswrong on July 01, 2014, 09:11:04 PM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;763199training is the only one that makes sense to me, to be honest.  Otherwise you'll end up with a bunch of drunk gamblers who are level 10 wizards and warriors ;-)

Traditionally, it's for finding "treasure" which implies you pulled it out of some stanky dungeon :)
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: jibbajibba on July 01, 2014, 10:36:59 PM
treasure for XP makes little sense.

The most sensible XP paradigms are

XP for using skills (and other abilities which includes combat)
XP for overcoming obstacles
XP for achieving goals (by overcoming obstacles)
XP for training

then you have XP awards that improve or colour the game style kind of Meta-xp

XP for roleplaying
XP for "participation" (people showing up, bringing snacks, doing sketchees etc )


XP for gold is just a shorthand and not very well realised achieving a goal. If you break into the merchants house defeat his pet basilisk by putting it to sleep or whatever and then steal his famous painting does it matter if the painting is worth 1000gp, 5000gp or if its a fake? the challenge was to steal the paining overcoming the obstacles on the way.

So the grog claim is that xp for gold drives a certain explor rather than fight style of play. Perhaps but a much better implementation of that would be xp for achievements.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Iosue on July 02, 2014, 12:16:15 AM
Quote from: Marleycat;763204Never did like gold for exp made it too easy to hire a bunch of redshirts to do what you should be doing in the first place.
Ah, but that's one of the great decision points of old D&D -- hire hirelings and henchmen and your chance of survival goes up, but your share of the XP goes down.  Do you trade faster advancement for a higher chance of survival, or do you take your chances?
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: robiswrong on July 02, 2014, 12:31:48 AM
Quote from: jibbajibba;763293So the grog claim is that xp for gold drives a certain explor rather than fight style of play. Perhaps but a much better implementation of that would be xp for achievements.

You could definitely make that argument - GP for XP is just a tangible way of making that clear - the designer of the area should use appropriate treasure for the risk of getting there.

It's the achievement-driven play that I really care about, not GP for XP specifically.  GP for XP is just a pretty elegant way to express that, especially in games where the basic idea can hold.

I don't think it necessarily works as well outside of the dungeon, and when you start getting to "adventure paths" or the like it kinda starts failing.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Sacrosanct on July 02, 2014, 12:50:15 AM
Gold for XP?  Or flesh for fantasy?
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Marleycat on July 02, 2014, 01:04:26 AM
co
Quote from: Iosue;763323Ah, but that's one of the great decision points of old D&D -- hire hirelings and henchmen and your chance of survival goes up, but your share of the XP goes down.  Do you trade faster advancement for a higher chance of survival, or do you take your chances?

Actually it's bigger then that. My conception of Dnd is....I AM A BIG DAMN HERO. Why not play Risk or a wargame if not? Even Blood Bowl isn't like that

And boys and girls that is the crux of the divide. Interestingly even OG knows his heroes created it from day 1.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: jibbajibba on July 02, 2014, 01:18:50 AM
Quote from: robiswrong;763325You could definitely make that argument - GP for XP is just a tangible way of making that clear - the designer of the area should use appropriate treasure for the risk of getting there.

It's the achievement-driven play that I really care about, not GP for XP specifically.  GP for XP is just a pretty elegant way to express that, especially in games where the basic idea can hold.

I don't think it necessarily works as well outside of the dungeon, and when you start getting to "adventure paths" or the like it kinda starts failing.

My XP award model in all games has mirrored objectives in the Corporate world for years.
So you get the mission objectives.

Bypass the maze of tears - 500xp
Locate the lost goblet of - 400xp
Deal with the Hydra to get to the Opal doorway - 1000xp
Open the Opal Doorway - 1000xp

Etc as i dont; plan these emerge through play but if I plan then I assign "things" points as they come up.

Then each player has 3 personal goals that must involve overcoming a challenge/obstacle

So -
Get elected Mayor of Hilltown - 1000xp
Uncover the identity of the thief that stole my horse 2 weeks ago - 300xp
Win the hand of Esmerelda in marriage - 2000xp

the points represet the time it takes to resolve that objective and the risk. As Esmerelda is the daugher of a famed bandit chieftan who has sworn he will kill you on sight and you know that only a gift of substanital proportions or the head of his arch enemy Captain Hoos will be enough, its a major challenge.

It never made sense to me, even back in the old days when I was 10, that you could kill, trap, outwit a troll to get to its treasure and if you got lucky you got 3000xps each due to that hen eggs sized diamond but if you got unlucky you got 300xp each and a few coins. Same risk, same strategy entirely different reward.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: robiswrong on July 02, 2014, 02:18:35 AM
Quote from: jibbajibba;763338It never made sense to me, even back in the old days when I was 10, that you could kill, trap, outwit a troll to get to its treasure and if you got lucky you got 3000xps each due to that hen eggs sized diamond but if you got unlucky you got 300xp each and a few coins. Same risk, same strategy entirely different reward.

There's a lot of "slot machine" in old D&D.  What you're really 'winning' is a pull of the handle.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Marleycat on July 02, 2014, 02:20:32 AM
Quote from: jibbajibba;763338My XP award model in all games has mirrored objectives in the Corporate world for years.
So you get the mission objectives.

Bypass the maze of tears - 500xp
Locate the lost goblet of - 400xp
Deal with the Hydra to get to the Opal doorway - 1000xp
Open the Opal Doorway - 1000xp

Etc as i dont; plan these emerge through play but if I plan then I assign "things" points as they come up.

Then each player has 3 personal goals that must involve overcoming a challenge/obstacle

So -
Get elected Mayor of Hilltown - 1000xp
Uncover the identity of the thief that stole my horse 2 weeks ago - 300xp
Win the hand of Esmerelda in marriage - 2000xp

the points represet the time it takes to resolve that objective and the risk. As Esmerelda is the daugher of a famed bandit chieftan who has sworn he will kill you on sight and you know that only a gift of substanital proportions or the head of his arch enemy Captain Hoos will be enough, its a major challenge.

It never made sense to me, even back in the old days when I was 10, that you could kill, trap, outwit a troll to get to its treasure and if you got lucky you got 3000xps each due to that hen eggs sized diamond but if you got unlucky you got 300xp each and a few coins. Same risk, same strategy entirely different reward.

So you've boiled it down to a corporate plan.....interesting.:)
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: jadrax on July 02, 2014, 03:52:23 AM
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;763248Just having "1 XP per GP spent roleplaying" would probably cover most things. So this could include gold characters spend wooing sweethearts, extra GP buying fancy but not more useful gear by foppish nobles in the party who demand the best in life, etc. As well as training (seeking a teacher could be seen as RP here too).

Yeah, I think that's pretty much my intent, but I would prefer at least some sort of structured list.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Spinachcat on July 02, 2014, 04:07:02 AM
I've used two methods for Gold for XP.

The first is the original OD&D concept that your adventurer is rewarded in XP based on the treasure they steal from the depths of the dungeon. Phat Loots, not Mad Killz, was the name of the game. This option promotes a playstyle where the PCs care more about sneaking / exploring and less about killing - in fact, this option makes players focus on avoiding combat. With the right group, its lots of fun.

The second method is Conan-inspired and I understand promoted by Dave Arneson, where the PC gets XP by spending gold like a crazy rockstar. PCs are spendthrift daredevils who have entourages, commission sculptures of themselves and throw orgies. With the right group, its really lots of great fun as players get creative about spending their loot.

XP and playstyle are intertwined. If you want to certain actions in your game, make that how people get XP.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Exploderwizard on July 02, 2014, 08:45:43 AM
Quote from: Marleycat;763335co

Actually it's bigger then that. My conception of Dnd is....I AM A BIG DAMN HERO.

That is ONE way to play and its a valid one. I like more variety in D&D characters. Some are big damn heroes (or really want to be), others just want a shortcut to wealth & fame and some others may just be whack jobs or adrenaline junkies and being in mortal danger excites them.

XP for treasure can serve all these types. The heroes can give most of their wealth to those in need, the greedy types can live like rock stars, the nut jobs can do whatever they want with it.

Quote from: Spinachcat;763369I've used two methods for Gold for XP.

The first is the original OD&D concept that your adventurer is rewarded in XP based on the treasure they steal from the depths of the dungeon. Phat Loots, not Mad Killz, was the name of the game. This option promotes a playstyle where the PCs care more about sneaking / exploring and less about killing - in fact, this option makes players focus on avoiding combat. With the right group, its lots of fun.

The second method is Conan-inspired and I understand promoted by Dave Arneson, where the PC gets XP by spending gold like a crazy rockstar. PCs are spendthrift daredevils who have entourages, commission sculptures of themselves and throw orgies. With the right group, its really lots of great fun as players get creative about spending their loot.

XP and playstyle are intertwined. If you want to certain actions in your game, make that how people get XP.

Exactly. I use the first method for treasure XP. The Conan method looks like a lot of fun but a fighter who has to spend all of his/her money to get XP will never be able to afford clearing a hex and building a keep.

I also give XP for encounters regardless of how they are resolved. Combat, negotiation, trickery, or an attempt at any of the above that ends with the party fleeing for their lives earns full XP.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Scott Anderson on July 02, 2014, 02:21:44 PM
XP is a system that subsidizes the kind of behavior you want to see more of. In my fantasy game, you get XP for taking gold. You also get it for exploring an area or observing a monster. You don't get more XP for a fight than you do for the observation.

In my pirates game, you get XP for securing treasure: spending it, banking it, or hiding it. Merely picking it up isn't sufficient, and I don't care how they do it.

You (all) should consider using XP as a "good play subsidy" what we you define as good play.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Opaopajr on July 02, 2014, 04:11:46 PM
Money laundering merchants become demigods in short order. Quickly devolves into he who has the gold makes the rules.

Better to have a range of XP potential and then have a GM assess the "learning value" of each encounter/experience-worthy act as per the subject. A spray of options and a critical thinker is worth more than all the statutory volumes I can scribble.

Just like a 10th lvl fighter slaughtering 3 goblins huddled in fear by a tree in a single round is not really XP worthy, nor is routinely skimming the shake and spillage in the spice warehouse worth XP regardless the GP it nets you.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: jadrax on July 02, 2014, 04:22:35 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;763559Money laundering merchants become demigods in short order.


That's why there on limits that the money must be spent on Personal items, Trade goods don't count.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Opaopajr on July 02, 2014, 05:19:45 PM
Quote from: jadrax;763561That's why there on limits that the money must be spent on Personal items, Trade goods don't count.

Think further. That stops nothing as merchants still become demigods. Additionally you placed no limits on selling off one's stuff secondhand.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: jadrax on July 02, 2014, 05:43:09 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;763574Think further. That stops nothing as merchants still become demigods. Additionally you placed no limits on selling off one's stuff secondhand.

Feel free to spell out your concerns, this is the design form after all.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: robiswrong on July 02, 2014, 06:09:27 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;763574Think further. That stops nothing as merchants still become demigods. Additionally you placed no limits on selling off one's stuff secondhand.

"XP for GP only counts for 'treasure' recovered from dungeons or other hostile places.

Money acquired via trading, or even selling of found equipment doesn't count.  'treasure' is the key word.  If Indy wouldn't want it, it don't count."
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Scott Anderson on July 02, 2014, 06:34:16 PM
XP should measure something in-game which correlates to the players having a good time at the table. It doesn't have to be one thing or another. It should be some thing or things in game that the characters do though.

Wheat ever works for you, that's what it should be. But it should measure something, it should be a character activity, and it should subsidize fun.

That's really broad I know but it's a good place to start.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Opaopajr on July 05, 2014, 06:23:33 PM
Quote from: robiswrong;763588"XP for GP only counts for 'treasure' recovered from dungeons or other hostile places.

Money acquired via trading, or even selling of found equipment doesn't count.  'treasure' is the key word.  If Indy wouldn't want it, it don't count."

What the hell are you talking about, follow the OP topic:

Advancement
You do not gain any experience for overcoming encounters.
For every 1 gp you spend on the following list, you gain 1 exp.
Personal Food, Drink and Lodgings
Donations to Temples or Charity
Personal Training or Entertainment


That is a recipe for trouble.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: robiswrong on July 05, 2014, 07:06:51 PM
Quote from: Opaopajr;764940What the hell are you talking about, follow the OP topic:

Advancement
You do not gain any experience for overcoming encounters.
For every 1 gp you spend on the following list, you gain 1 exp.
Personal Food, Drink and Lodgings
Donations to Temples or Charity
Personal Training or Entertainment


That is a recipe for trouble.

Agreed.  The thing you quoted was in quotes because that's what I'd tell my players.

Otherwise, you get situations where you can merchant your way to 20th level.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Scott Anderson on July 05, 2014, 08:13:05 PM
Let me give an example of how gold for XP works.

In my pirates game, the scurvy dogs gain most of their XP from treasure, and a lesser amount for experiencing new peoples, places and things and then boasting about them back in town.

No XP for combat.

The XP from treasure isn't instantaneous, either. You have to "secure" your treasure in one of three ways:

1) spending it
2) hiding it
3) putting it in the Royal Bank.

Depending on the character of a particular pirate, the third option might never happen- but you can still bury it in the jungle and make yourself a treasure map...

The key here is, the XP comes from using the gold or securing it for later use. It also comes from exploring and living to tell the tale. Both of these are tangible game actions tied to RP in a minor way, that reinforce the pirate way of life- the fiction of the setting.

The case of the Demigod merchant won't ever happen because pirates aren't in the business of respectable labour. They steal money and squander it, or stick it in a hole in the ground.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Opaopajr on July 06, 2014, 01:50:19 PM
Quote from: Scott Anderson;764970Let me give an example of how gold for XP works...

The XP from treasure isn't instantaneous, either. You have to "secure" your treasure in one of three ways:

1) spending it
2) hiding it
3) putting it in the Royal Bank.

Depending on the character of a particular pirate, the third option might never happen- but you can still bury it in the jungle and make yourself a treasure map...

The key here is, the XP comes from using the gold or securing it for later use. It also comes from exploring and living to tell the tale. Both of these are tangible game actions tied to RP in a minor way, that reinforce the pirate way of life- the fiction of the setting.

The case of the Demigod merchant won't ever happen because pirates aren't in the business of respectable labour. They steal money and squander it, or stick it in a hole in the ground.

Neither do merchants, respectable labour (as many a society defines it). The big difference is access to foundations, merchant guilds, letters of credit, legitimacy, preferential protection by authority, etc. You know, the whole framework of civilization. So who's going to profit from this faster?

Sure you can favor pirates and the like in your games, but from a direct read of those rules the inherent logic completely says otherwise. GM adjudication and more options is key because as written those rules are asking for trouble.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Phillip on July 06, 2014, 03:58:32 PM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;763199training is the only one that makes sense to me, to be honest.  Otherwise you'll end up with a bunch of drunk gamblers who are level 10 wizards and warriors ;-)

Like Conan, Fafhrd and Mouser, the Three Musketeers, Hercules, Beowulf, etc.?
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Scott Anderson on July 06, 2014, 04:05:42 PM
I would suspect that merchants would have a hard time gaining XP as a pirate because they're not pirates. Not everyone has to live by the same game rules.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Phillip on July 06, 2014, 04:07:06 PM
Quote from: robiswrong;763588"XP for GP only counts for 'treasure' recovered from dungeons or other hostile places.

Money acquired via trading, or even selling of found equipment doesn't count.  'treasure' is the key word.  If Indy wouldn't want it, it don't count."

Do that if you want to discourage people from adventures in speculative trade. If you're happy enough to have Sinbad as well as Cortes, then why not?
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Opaopajr on July 06, 2014, 08:27:39 PM
Quote from: Scott Anderson;765246I would suspect that merchants would have a hard time gaining XP as a pirate because they're not pirates. Not everyone has to live by the same game rules.

What are you now talking about, separate XP rules by class? Reserved XP system for adventurers' only? That's fine, it's another option, and 2e gives many examples of how to do it. But know that is GM or rule judgment understanding the weaknesses of this topic's GP to XP structure.

I'd tie it to "things that require effort." So fencing stolen goods, or selling art/artifacts for best price, or establishing a home, that all takes time and effort, that are actual learning experiences. If it's something so easy as to be routine, from slaughtering prone goblins, or surviving a sunny day, to gaining and spending GP in easy trade/theft, then GM should wave it away; being routine is itself the reward.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Scott Anderson on July 06, 2014, 11:37:43 PM
Yeah. I never really thought about idiot-proofing my own XP rules.

I'm still not thinking about it. But you've raised the specter that someone, somewhere might be able to bend the rules.

Look, it's a game about pirates. There are no merchant PCs. So that's how that works. If the players want to try their hand at honest labor, by all means, we can tinker with the XP system again.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Opaopajr on July 07, 2014, 01:38:15 AM
After prolonged tangential exposure to Organized Play, tragically I have come to the conclusion that things need to be as explicit as possible in an effort to idiot-proof it from the radioactivity of tournament style thinking. That includes rule zero and GM judgment recommendations.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Scott Anderson on July 07, 2014, 07:50:40 AM
I'll keep that in mind for when I'm a Big Fucking Deal... Lol

You are making good points for general play. I'm not to worried about limiting things in a lawyerly way because I don't think I will ever release the game. It's just for me and my kids to play pirates.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Zeea on July 07, 2014, 07:54:09 AM
I'm using 1 XP per GP found while adventuring (or rewarded for adventuring) and it's working pretty well. I haven't ruled that you need to spend it on anything particular, since I don't really like those sorts of rules and mostly just think the focus should be on the actual acquisition of treasure rather than downtime stuff.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Bill on July 07, 2014, 12:42:58 PM
Quote from: jadrax;763185So one of the things that intrigues me about oldschool D&D is the idea of Gold for XP, because its something I have never seen used at the table.

So assuming there is no module for this in the DMG,  I was thinking of using the following houserule:




To give you some metrics, a comfortable lifestyle from the play test cost 50 gp a month, so 50 exp per month could be seen as the default pace of advancement.

However, like I say I have never used Gold as XP in play, so has anyone any feedback?

The main problem I see with gold as xp is that many adventures would have no gold involved.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Opaopajr on July 07, 2014, 03:45:17 PM
Quote from: Scott Anderson;765464I'll keep that in mind for when I'm a Big Fucking Deal... Lol

You are making good points for general play. I'm not to worried about limiting things in a lawyerly way because I don't think I will ever release the game. It's just for me and my kids to play pirates.

Oh, then you're fine! Children tend to be open and accepting up until the "witching years" of jr. high. Then a dark, hormonal pall falls upon the land, and eldritch drawings appear with keening wails of mortified embarrassment...
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Scott Anderson on July 07, 2014, 10:05:10 PM
We just make our fuckin' guys and roll the dice. As log as my son gets to slaughter something and my daughter gets to meet interesting NPCs, and y wife gets to board treasure and NEVER EVER GIVE YOU ANY FOR ANY REASON EVER BECAUSE ITS HERS ALL HERS!! and we level up every so often, it's good.
Title: [D&D 5e] Gold for XP
Post by: Phillip on July 09, 2014, 12:44:43 AM
Quote from: Bill;765556The main problem I see with gold as xp is that many adventures would have no gold involved.

A tree of swords and jewels? A field of forgotten dreams? The throne's rightful heir? One's true love? Truth? Justice? Redemption?

Money is just a token for real wealth. Any desire can be a goal, the challenges in the way of attaining it presenting the game. Set a valuation on it, and there you go! It's just a structuring mechanism like goal scoring in a ball game.

Most players want to keep score indefinitely, rather than having a game-ending victory condition. That's part of the open-ended nature that gives traditional RPGs their special appeal.