Where is the original Ron Edwards "Brain Damage" comment? I have a friend who doesn't believe me that someone actually said this. He knows almost nothing about the Forge, and I just want to prove that it was said.
Does anyone have the link?
Never mind, I found it. I though it was at the Forge, but it was on Vincent Baker's blog.
Here's some links courtesy of Spike, The Forge's search engine, our very own search engine, and fifteen minutes of searching:
The Post itself on Anyway (http://www.lumpley.com/marginalia.php?entry=158&comment=3777)
The Post in Full context, on Anyway (http://www.lumpley.com/comment.php?entry=158) (Ron's comment is #14)
The thread he started about it, complete with sexual abuse analogy! (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=18707.0)
His obstinacy and refusal to retract or apologize (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=18807.0)
(http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=18807.0)
You could have just looked at my big list of links, mate ;)
I didn't think of that...I really should pay attention to your big list of links.
However, I'm glad I looked these up and reread them.
Damaged my ass, I'm almost done with a Master's in History, if I can't tell a story, he doesn't know how to understand one!
His threads on the Forge are the worst. I'm not usuall vocal about my thoughts in that regard, since I try to be moderate, but the level of ass kissing in those threads is...disgusting.
That's the first time I ever read that and it doesn't carry near as much venom as I thought it would from the responses it gets.
No, it's not venemous, that's not what makes me mad. I'm not mad enough to do anything, but it makes me mad at how incredibly INCORRECT he is...
Well if not that, then the follow-up which says that bad gaming is like child abuse is pretty venomous, if you ask me.
It ties in with their idea that if you had fun/stories playing "incoherent" games, well then really you didn't have fun/stories, it's just that you were so brain-damaged/abused that you didn't know what fun/stories really were.
Dunno about you, but I find that pretty offensive. It's an amazingly elaborate way of saying, "if you disagree with me, it's only because you're crazy or stupid."
Quote from: GunslingerThat's the first time I ever read that and it doesn't carry near as much venom as I thought it would from the responses it gets.
His basic claim, as I understand it, that particular styles of play (and, less so, particular games) reduce the ability to create a functional story. That's fair enough, although I think he's incorrect about the games in question.
The further suggestion that a person suffers mental or neurological damage because of this, and that is is the equivalent of childhood trauma is utter nonsense. Prof Edwards should know better than to make comments about developmental psychology which he clearly knows very little about.
Nevertheless, if this is included in JimBob's big list of links, it would stand to reason that the RPG Pundit's comments (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1998&page=9) that goths are mentally troubled who deserve to be punished and that goth women deserve to be fucked then mocked should also be included. After all, Edwards is simply stubbornly wrong, the Pundit however is stubbornly wrong
and malicious.
Actually, the part I find more interesting is this:
Quote from: Ron EdwardsThe design decisions I've made with my current project are so not-RPG, but at the same time so dismissive of what's ordinarily called "consensual storytelling," that I cannot even begin to discuss it on-line. I can see the influences of Universalis, The Mountain Witch, and My Life with Master, but I cannot articulate the way that I have abandoned the player-character, yet preserved the moral responsibility of decision-making during play. That's all I'll say here, and I won't answer questions about it.
The arrogance of the man is mind boggling. I'm not entirely sure which revolutionary project of his he is referring to - can someone help clarify?
Though you know, he may be on to something, I've certainly had a few sessions where I could feel my brain cells dying in droves. Suicides mostly if I'm not mistaken. However, I swear it was caused by the people I was playing with and not the rules.
Quote from: Tyberious FunkThe arrogance of the man is mind boggling. I'm not entirely sure which revolutionary project of his he is referring to - can someone help clarify?
Agreed on the arrogance, which is why I don't like reading him generally. I also think that his arrogance is getting worse year by year.
I believe the game he's referring to is
Spionen, which Sett might know the most about.[FONT="][/FONT]
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Quote from: Tyberious FunkThe arrogance of the man is mind boggling. I'm not entirely sure which revolutionary project of his he is referring to - can someone help clarify?
He said he can't even begin to discuss it online. He said he can't articulate it.
Which makes me wonder how he's actually
writing it, if he can't articulate his ideas, but...
Quote from: lev_lafayetteNevertheless, if this is included in JimBob's big list of links, it would stand to reason that the RPG Pundit's comments (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1998&page=9) that goths are mentally troubled who deserve to be punished and that goth women deserve to be fucked then mocked should also be included. After all, Edwards is simply stubbornly wrong, the Pundit however is stubbornly wrong and malicious.
You are right that his comments are loopy and funny in their loopiness. I'll add a link!
About maliciousness, I dunno. They both seem about equal to me. Remember, I've called old Pundit "Mirror Ron."
Edit: on looking at my list of links, and looking at the linked thread, while it's an excellent example of loopiness, it's not really
rpg-related loopiness. Now if he were saying that about White Wolf fans instead of Goth kids, that'd be a different thing. If you find me a link where he says that White Wolf fans deserve to be punished, and the female WW fans should be fucked and then mocked, it'll be straight into the big list! It's funny, interesting and useful stuff about
rpgs. Like if Lev had done a big freewheeling thread about his Ten Thousand Islands campaign, that'd be straight in there!
Random rambling showing vile beliefs and madness isn't really enough. Otherwise I'd have to link every thread Dominus Nox posted to, and it'd get a bit cluttered. Must be
rpg-related! :D
Quote from: David JohansenThough you know, he may be on to something, I've certainly had a few sessions where I could feel my brain cells dying in droves. Suicides mostly if I'm not mistaken. However, I swear it was caused by the people I was playing with and not the rules.
I've had that feeling too. Usually while perusing The Forge.
Quote from: joewolz
Agreed on the arrogance, which is why I don't like reading him generally. I also think that his arrogance is getting worse year by year.
I suspect it is just a matter of time before someone bops him one... at a convention perhaps. Not that I condone violence, but I'd love to see him tell the crowd at a convention that they're all brain dead.
Wouldn't everyone listening to his spiel just reach out their arms, start drooling and walking around stiffly like zombies saying, "brains! braaaaains!"?
You know, as someone who does actually suffer from the effects of brain damage, and as someone whose whole family as suffered from the after effects of child abuse in one form or another, I feel as if I should have every right to be staggeringly offended by Edward's ignorant rhetoric.
And yet, I can't muster up much more than a level of sad disgust, of pity, even. Truly, there's something utterly pathetic, so petty, about stooping to such a level just to try and score rhetorical points over a bloody game. A game.
Spione is using the method of roleplay, but it´s totally story creation, and you don´t habve your own character, but rather an agenda for the story.
Which you have to come up with yourself, and then you try to meta-psycho-game the others to accept your story input. To get started with the story, you have a bunch of characters with conflicts. All those conflicts are cold war related, but as usual in the Thematic style, they are quickly (and supposedt to be) broken down to the bare human level.
Frex:
Family vs. Country, Honesty etc.
But it really doesn´t matter, because the resolution system is luck based:
You draw cards. Higher cards overrule lower cards. Thusly, there is no ressources or tactics, there is only luck. Then, the lucky player can steer the story in his direction. To have your input valued, you must therefore make your story parts in a way nobody wants to overrule it.
It´s very basic, unelegant and yould have been way easier to play with Narrative Cagematch, with even better results.
Ron tries to market it to "Spy Novel readers" (is this popular in the US? I had never before heard about it here) and therefore came thrice to Berlin to talk to storeowners, if they would carry the book. Don´t know about how that turned out. But it´s safe to say no one from the press showed up at the main event last year, and bobody has seen a Spione copy in a bookstore.
Joewolz might look at my blog entry ;)
http://hofrat.blogspot.com/search?q=spione
The lowest one is the main post, titled "We´re off to see the Wizard!"
Quote from: SettembriniJoewolz might look at my blog entry ;)
http://hofrat.blogspot.com/search?q=spione
The lowest one is the main post, titled "We´re off to see the Wizard!"
Ahhhh... perhaps someone who speaks not-English can provide a rough translation. :)
What I wrote above is roughly paraphrasing my thoughts on that.
Wow.
That actually sounds worse that Big Uncle Ron's other crapulent game.
Sad, man. Just sad.
We've already covered this before in other threads.
Thread closed.
(Okay that was a cheap shot.)
Quote from: jrientsWe've already covered this before in other threads.
Thread closed.
(Okay that was a cheap shot.)
I almost believed you because I haven't had my coffee yet. Good Joke! :haw:
Is Spione available anywhere? Also, Sett, there's not that many "Spy Novel Readers" in the United States either. Not a very common genre to my knowledge.
QuoteIs Spione available anywhere?
I don´t know. You might want to check out it´s website:
http://spione.adept-press.com/?thebook
EDIT: Seems it is available.
Thanks Sett, that's the site I wanted. I didn't know if he was selling it in Enlgish or German, nor did I know if he was using his usual imprint.
I'm a little angry that we Americans can't buy the German version. I'd much rather have that, since I doubt I'll ever play the thing. And if I want to just read something, I might as well practice my German.
Maybe you can just ask him?
I´m pretty sure he could set up the german pdf on US Lulu.
@Spione:
There are videos on the linked site, actual play videos.
The game is structured into:
Preparation
Description
Resolution (Flashpoint, where the actual card mechanics are used)
D.
R.
...
So be sure to look into a basic description of the structure, or the actual play vids make no sense.
Quote from: JimBobOzWell if not that, then the follow-up which says that bad gaming is like child abuse is pretty venomous, if you ask me.
It ties in with their idea that if you had fun/stories playing "incoherent" games, well then really you didn't have fun/stories, it's just that you were so brain-damaged/abused that you didn't know what fun/stories really were.
Dunno about you, but I find that pretty offensive. It's an amazingly elaborate way of saying, "if you disagree with me, it's only because you're crazy or stupid."
I can dismiss the "brain damage" and "child abuse" comments as hyperbole when I'm feeling generous (though the continued defense of these comments and the non-retraction leave me less inclined to do so). However I'm most offended by the idea that I don't know when I'm having fun or not. That's the most self serving bullshit of it all.
That and I don't think Ron Edwards would know a "story" if one fell out of his ass with Cliff Notes. :haw:
The real problem is the intellectual poverty:
Your approach to story is a function of socialization and training.
Sure, you can be trained badly.
But insiting on literal brain damage speaks volumes about the authors academical and intellectual training.
He seems not to be trained to approach social and cultural phenomena with the tools vocabulary and concepts of cultural and social sciences.
The whole muddling up of biological phenomena with those of the cultural sphere is at the very least a very bold move. He would be pointed with fingers at and laughed out of the room in any humanities seminar I can imagine if he made that connection there.
Quote from: SettembriniThe whole muddling up of biological phenomena with those of the cultural sphere is at the very least a very bold move. He would be pointed with fingers at and laughed out of the room in any humanities seminar I can imagine if he made that connection there.
I agree completely, being somone involved in the Humanities.
I bolded the above because sometimes your German really infulences your English...I'm not ripping on you Sett, that just sounds really funny to me. If we ever speak or write German to each other, please expect me to sound much funnier, as your English is a hell of a lot better than my German!
That's what I like about this place. So much discussion about game design and theory. ;)
Quote from: lev_lafayetteNevertheless, if this is included in JimBob's big list of links, it would stand to reason that the RPG Pundit's comments (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1998&page=9) that goths are mentally troubled who deserve to be punished and that goth women deserve to be fucked then mocked should also be included. After all, Edwards is simply stubbornly wrong, the Pundit however is stubbornly wrong and malicious.
I've seen that before, but it was so amazingly wrong and stupid that I just let it lie. Much as Pundits rhetoric is a loose cannon, damaging his points as often as it helps, Ron's rhetoric has probably done more to hurt him then it ever helped.
It's really only relevant in a discussion of game design in so far as a note of how bickering and sophistery ruins a good discussion.
I put this thread here because the discussions I was searching out had to do with theory. That's about the long and short.
I have no idea where the thread belongs now.
But it's active!
I was abused as a child. Not by my parents, but by other children and authority figures. With my clinical depression I have generalized anxiety disorder. When I was a kid I'd tend to freak out when other kids got to teasing me. (Explains tons, don't it?) I'm older, wiser, and on medication now, which makes a huge difference.
I should hope I know and understand more about abuse than Edwards. His claim that only the abused would enjoy "incoherent" (and I don't think that word means what he thinks it means) games shows me he has no knowledge or understanding of what it means to be abused, or to be the product of abuse. (Before anybody asks, there was no physical abuse, it was all emotional.)
Ron Edwards is one of those people who could use some remedial socializing.
...with a louisville slugger...
Mythusmage, that was...very brave to say.
QuoteRon Edwards is one of those people who could use some remedial socializing.
Actually, this turns out not to be the case. I've never gamed with Ron, but I've hung out with him extensively at a wedding and talked to him on the phone a few times, and I've found him exceptionally easy to get along with. He's smart, funny, generous with his time, no less interested in what you're saying than he is in hearing his own voice, and in general I'd rate him one of the more socially high-functioning people I've hung out with.
QuoteI bolded the above because sometimes your German really infulences your English...I'm not ripping on you Sett, that just sounds really funny to me.
Oh, I know. Grammatical accents are the hardest to get rid off. It really is dependant on whether I´m actually mentally prephrasing in german or in english.
QuoteI've never gamed with Ron, but I've hung out with him extensively at a wedding and talked to him on the phone a few times, and I've found him exceptionally easy to get along with. He's smart, funny, generous with his time, no less interested in what you're saying than he is in hearing his own voice, and in general I'd rate him one of the more socially high-functioning people I've hung out with.
Well he definitely is a nice guy and fun person to be around. In real life, you can always interrupt someone and remind him of something that should be phrased differently (goes both ways). Online you don´t have that. And interestingly enough, I found Ron´s positions to be more axiomatic when he defends them online.
There were several strange situations at the Spione Event, that were rather socially awkward for us in the audience, and we got the feel Ron wasn´t noticing. But that could well be just cultural differences.
All in all, I can just say personally attacking him, or insinuating mentally deficiencies doesn´t do him justice on that level. But: he´s doing it online "all the time", so it´s just on that level.
Quote from: SettembriniThere were several strange situations at the Spione Event, that were rather socially awkward for us in the audience, and we got the feel Ron wasn´t noticing. But that could well be just cultural differences.
Or he could just be an oblivious geek. We have a few of those in the hobby :p
And his obliviousness
does come across online.