Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;530598I don't know that I can give up on searching for the One True Perfect System

I use to think this way, in regard to rpg systems and other things.

Outside of rpg games, this has not exactly been the most fruitful pursuit.

For example in the hard sciences over the last several centuries, there have been numerous individuals which have attempted to formulate a fundamental theory which can explain everything in the universe.  Einstein spent half of his career on searching for such a theory, but failed repeatedly.  The more recent heirs to this fruitless search, are the string theorists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_field_theory

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;530598Possibly the need to define stats in real terms is why people tend not like stuff like e.g. Blue Rose where they dropped the normal D&D stat scale and just used the modifiers...

4E D&D is effectively like this.  :banghead:

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;530598I don't know that I can give up on searching for the One True Perfect System

Game design is engineering. And, like all engineering, it involves choices, consequences, and compromises. And each choice you make constrains your future choices.

There is no perfect car, perfect CPU, or perfect building. Such things do not exist, because optimizing for one strength means compromising elsewhere.

The same goes for RPG's. There is no perfect system. All you can do is define your needs, and build a system that meets them.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;530598I think your answer is interesting because the emphasis it puts on 'defining a link between real-world performance' and the scale. That's definitely something I should be considering more

Well, my argument was that you should be considering it less, because optimizing for that places severe constraints on your other choices. IMHO, its better to chose interesting and fun core mechanics, then allow them to determine the scale. Once you have the scale, then describe how it relates to  real world performance.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;530598I'd previously though of 'best' more in terms of mechanical convenience (minimizing table lookups and modifiers, ease of recalculating ability damage)

Those seem like good places to start. JMHO.

In principle, creating a game system based strictly on the mathematics of the mechanics (ie. dice, grids, etc ...) and devoid of any resemblance or connection to the real world, is actually quite easy.

Connecting such a mathematical system to any resemblance or indirect/direct connection to the real world, is the hard part.

For example in the mundane real world offline, "balance" is actually quite rare in practice.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;530988Game design is engineering. And, like all engineering, it involves choices, consequences, and compromises. And each choice you make constrains your future choices.
 
There is no perfect car, perfect CPU, or perfect building. Such things do not exist, because optimizing for one strength means compromising elsewhere.
 
The same goes for RPG's. There is no perfect system. All you can do is define your needs, and build a system that meets them.

Well true, although I've never seen an RPG that couldn't be improved
Often there are shortcuts that will at least improve performance, that are overlooked.
 
Even in engineering there are cases where experts have said something couldn't be done, but they eventually found a way (Henry Ford reportedly paid engineers to just keep thinking of ways to cast engine blocks as a single unit, rather than cylinder by cylinder, despite their protestations, and it paid off). Getting energy out of atoms was decried as "talking moonshine" by Ernest Rutherford (the "father of nuclear physics") before they actually did it.
 
The choices is the hard thing. In the past to do stuff like trying to pick which is the best mechanic, I've done stuff like listing out 100 or so specific rules that I really liked, giving each of them scores for how easily they can be applied to a given core mechanic, then adding up to get the highest number and find the 'best' core mechanic (if not the perfect one). Last time I tried it, it didn't really work though since I eventually found that I'd made a few wrong assumptions and whatnot...
 
Anyway, everyone needs a hobby. I can always convert to Cheetoism on my deathbed like the guy in The Last Samurai...

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;531078The choices is the hard thing. In the past to do stuff like trying to pick which is the best mechanic, I've done stuff like listing out 100 or so specific rules that I really liked, giving each of them scores for how easily they can be applied to a given core mechanic, then adding up to get the highest number and find the 'best' core mechanic (if not the perfect one). Last time I tried it, it didn't really work though since I eventually found that I'd made a few wrong assumptions and whatnot...

I'm sure many hardcore gamer types have done something like this several times over the years.  Even if it was just done completely mentally, and never formally written down on paper.
 

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;531078Anyway, everyone needs a hobby. I can always convert to Cheetoism on my deathbed like the guy in The Last Samurai...

I'm slowly on my way out of the tabletop rpg hobby.  (I've come to the conclusion that no game is better than playing with groups of incorrigible dysfunctional players).

Haven't found a replacement hobby yet.  (Not even watching television or crappy movies).

Quote from: ggroy;531150I'm sure many hardcore gamer types have done something like this several times over the years.  Even if it was just done completely mentally, and never formally written down on paper.
 

Ah well thanks, I was worried I was sounding like some sort of basket case...

QuoteI'm slowly on my way out of the tabletop rpg hobby.  (I've come to the conclusion that no game is better than playing with groups of incorrigible dysfunctional players).

Haven't found a replacement hobby yet.  (Not even watching television or crappy movies).

Sorry to hear it.  Good groups seem hard to find, unfortunately (My bunch aren't bad - if a bit D&D centric - having an SO who's also a gamer helps alot with this). I have no helpful advice on new hobbies, though.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;531151Ah well thanks, I was worried I was sounding like some sort of basket case...

Back in the day, I use to buy different rpg books and box sets, largely searching for the "perfect" system.  Never was able to find such a "holy grail".

After adding in my own modifications and designing systems from scratch, I was never able to find any holy grails.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;531151Sorry to hear it.  Good groups seem hard to find, unfortunately (My bunch aren't bad - if a bit D&D centric - having an SO who's also a gamer helps alot with this). I have no helpful advice on new hobbies, though.

The group I play one-shot evening rpg games with occasionally (ie. once every few months), are not the types I would want to play a weekly campaign with.

Ever since I got back into rpg games (shortly after 3.5E was released), I have not been able to find a steady long term gaming group.  A part of this is due to moving a few times.  In a new town or even in a different area of a large city, one essentially has to start over again.  After awhile of living in a particular location, one gets to know who most of the local players are (along with their quirks and vices).

Quote from: ggroy;530554For example, if one attempts to translate the system of mechanics used in a video game like World of Warcraft, most likely it would look like something which makes Rolemaster or 3.xE/d20 look "simple" in comparison.

I dunno. I think I did pretty well.

Quote from: J Arcane;531177I dunno. I think I did pretty well.

What I had in mind, was literally doing a 1-to-1 translation of the mechanics from the video game to a pen-and-paper rpg format.  This could be like taking the actual computer code, and translating it directly to dice mechanics.

Quote from: ggroy;531184What I had in mind, was literally doing a 1-to-1 translation of the mechanics from the video game to a pen-and-paper rpg format.  This could be like taking the actual computer code, and translating it directly to dice mechanics.

Ahh, well, yes, that would suck dickface.  I just wanted to be a smartarse.  

I actually DID write a game like that once, when I was much younger, converting a CRPG I wrote into a tabletop game.  Good setting, but man, the game mechanics would never have flown in the real world.

Quote from: J Arcane;531192I actually DID write a game like that once, when I was much younger, converting a CRPG I wrote into a tabletop game.  Good setting, but man, the game mechanics would never have flown in the real world.

Which computer game?

Quote from: ggroy;531194Which computer game?

It was an unpublished game on a computer already dead when I wrote it, called "Bane of the DragonSun."

I was like 12 when I made the original game.

Quote from: J Arcane;531199It was an unpublished game on a computer already dead when I wrote it, called "Bane of the DragonSun."

I was like 12 when I made the original game.

The only computer game I ever tried to dissect back in the day, was "sword of fargoal" on a Commodore Vic20.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_Fargoal

It turned out the Vic20 version of "sword of fargoal" was written in Basic, and the program code was readable by the "list" command.  Though it was a long enough program, that it was not easy to follow.

Quote from: ggroy;531201The only computer game I ever tried to dissect back in the day, was "sword of fargoal" on a Commodore Vic20.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_Fargoal

It turned out the Vic20 version of "sword of fargoal" was written in Basic, and the program code was readable by the "list" command.  Though it was a long enough program, that it was not easy to follow.

Sword of Fargoal is good stuffs.  They made a Windows remake some time back, and it's fantastic.  Hard to find now though, the creator took it down so he could sell some awful iOS port instead.