Quote from: jibbajibba;530584Set the scale to have 2 attributes.
 
So Strength A3, B6, etc
 
The first letter is the category (you can expand this of course or create different subcategories)
 
A = Godlike
B = SuperHuman
c = Preternatural
D = Human
E = Weak
F = Feeble
 
the number indicates relative comparison
 
So Superman might have Strength B8 in your system and Thor might have B7 or Thor might have A6 and Magnar A8 however you cchose to run it in your 'verse.
 
In comparison an A always beats a B etc you only bother to compare between creatures on the same scale. A human (D) can always beat a cat (E) and a cat can always beat a mouse (F)
In effect you can then run a modern warfare game where every one has D1-9 (Or even D3 - 18 if you like) and then chuck in a tank with Strength B4.
You can run a fantasy game where an exceptional hero might have Strength C4 but he will still be weaker than a Giant (B range)
Also you can have creatures physically exceptional but mentally equal. Superman might be
 
Str = B8 Dex = B7 Con = B4
Int = D8 Wis = D7 Chr = C4
 
Or whatever......
 
 
Then you just need to work out how many Ds equal a C Lets take 10 as a good number (but you might like 8, 12, or even 16).
 
So in this concept 100 people (Strength D ) might have a chance in a tug of war against 1 tank (Strength B).

I don't see the point of the ranks exactly, numbers are more convenient for lots of things? - i.e.gets hit points = stat, throw tank miles = stat, whatever.
 
Here if you say have a range of 0-9 in each category, you could have a number where "tens place" of representing the scales F through A. In which case it'd really be a scale from 0 (F0) to 69 (A9). [broader ranges within each rank could also be expressed as numbers if you use e.g. hexadecimal or other base numbering]...

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;530510I'm wondering if people have a preference/opinion as to what sort of scale is best for attributes/stats.

The best scale is the one which matches the mechanics of the system. The best mechanics are the ones that match your needs in designing the system.

I know this is the obvious and expected answer, and could be seen as being so general as to be considered useless. But neither answer is vague, they are exactly correct.

For your own purposes, begin by defining exactly what it is you wish to accomplish with the game. Then build the mechanics and statistics to match those goals.

Side note: It is very difficult building a scale that can include both human-level and superhuman, without running into significant problems. The real world is just not mathematically elegant.

In the abstract, a system like Torg's is as close to the mathematical ideal as one can come (answering the objections about DC Heroes). In practice, the attempt to mathematically define a strong and intimate link between real world values and game measurements (Strength of 10 = can lift 100 kilos, Dex 10 = can run 100m in 10 seconds) inevitably requires fudge factors, caveats, and exemptions.

Even then, the scale is 5-8-13 (human min, avg, max), which doesn't appeal to simplicity or aesthetics. Plus, it's laughable. Max Str is actually 12, max Dex is actually 10, and while mass is a good stand-in for Toughness, that puts the obese human max at between 14 and 15 and regular human max at around a 9-10.

I've done the research on real world performance, and tried to fiddle with scales to match, but there are no elegant scales and no exemption-free gaming. Eventually, I had to chuck the concept entirely.

Again, it comes down to: what kind of game are you trying to make? What mechanical elements are you including, and why?

Start with those, then retroactively define Lift and Carry values to match. Shadowrun and GURPS both have different attribute scales, but their calculated values for L&C are are comparable. If the game mechanics are playable, rough equivalence to real world performance is acceptable.

(There used to be an RPG Olympics site that calculated how fast/strong characters from a dozen systems were. It was interesting, unfortunately it's vanished. But it supported my "comparable to real world performance" contention.)

Quote from: StormBringer;530582There's your problem. To my knowledge, this has been done innumerable times, but it has never been done well. I think Marvel Supers came about the closest, really, but even with FASERIP is was more than a little wonky at the high end.
 
And it's not even the ability scores that cause the problem, it's the scaling of tasks. You can certainly go with a logarithmic scale like DC Heroes, but it will take some fiddling to make the presentation simple and non-recursive. How strong is 30? Well, it's twice as strong as 29. How strong is 29? Well, it's twice as strong as 28. And so on. And it gets fairly ridiculous early on. If you take just the basics, and state that a Str of 1 means you can lift 2 pounds, then a 2 is four pounds, a 3 is eight pounds, and so forth. Essentially, 2^(Str score) in pounds. A score of 9 would be a bit over the maximum human capacity, sitting at 512 pounds. Add another point, and you are lifting half a ton. Bump it up to 20, and you are lifting 500 tons. Bump it up to 30, and it's over a million tons. The Earth weighs 1.3E+25 pounds, or about 6.5E+21 tons. Now, that is a pretty staggering Str score of 72.5 (or thereabouts), which is probably going to be out-of-bounds in any case. That is still 1.125E+15 pounds, or about 5.63E+11 tons.
 
It's really difficult to get the scaling and the balance correct. If you keep the PCs at just the normal human limits, however, most of the problem goes away.

Superhumans are a bit of an edge case really. Again nice if a system handles this, but its only a minor consideration, usually (unless I was making a supers game - in which case I'd have to concede that the demands of supers mean the ideal system for them is different to everyone else..).
 
I'd agree that the logarithmic nature of DC scales it up probably too quickly for it to be super-useful outside of mega-super-heroic action ? The idea of attributes having an exponential scale, though (rather than linear like MSH ?) is workable I think, if the doublings happen less frequently; 3.5 D&D for example has a scale where +10 Strength = x4 lifting capacity.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;530592I don't see the point of the ranks exactly, numbers are more convenient for lots of things? - i.e.gets hit points = stat, throw tank miles = stat, whatever.
 
Here if you say have a range of 0-9 in each category, you could have a number where "tens place" of representing the scales F through A. In which case it'd really be a scale from 0 (F0) to 69 (A9). [broader ranges within each rank could also be expressed as numbers if you use e.g. hexadecimal or other base numbering]...

No the idea is that there are human tasks (say rank D) these are things any human could do. You don;t need to make an Int check to open a door. A dog with E x inteligence however would need to make an Int Check to open a door.

Basically it takes a system like the Marvel one and allows you to compare between different ranks. In the Marvel system normal humans can't be effectivly compared becuase they are all the same compared to most superheroes. This system lets you still compare all humans on an effective range but it gives you alternate ranges for different categories of thing.

Take an in play example.
How far can you throw a 2 ton car?
Well throwing a 2 ton car is classed as B rank task. If you have C Rank or D rank or E rank you just can't do it.
If you have B rank Strength then you can throw a car and how far you can throw it depends on the number and you can use whatever number sysatem you like 3d6, 2d10, 0-9 whatever....

Now I am just riffing with this so I haven't even considered how it wourl work with a damage system liek hit points but my guess would be that in basic play a Rank C Strength thing just couldn;t harm a Rank B Con thing.  etc.

So Captain America (give him C3 Strength) jsut can't harm Superman no matter how hard he hits him. If he uses his sheild... maybe that means his manage moves a rank higher and now he can damage rank B con things....

Moving between scales is a BIG step, within a range everythgin can be compared......

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;530595The idea of attributes having an exponential scale, though (rather than linear like MSH ?) is workable I think,

See my post above, which is all about exactly this.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;530593The best scale is the one which matches the mechanics of the system. The best mechanics are the ones that match your needs in designing the system.
 
I know this is the obvious and expected answer, and could be seen as being so general as to be considered useless. But neither answer is vague, they are exactly correct.
 
For your own purposes, begin by defining exactly what it is you wish to accomplish with the game. Then build the mechanics and statistics to match those goals.
 
Side note: It is very difficult building a scale that can include both human-level and superhuman, without running into significant problems. The real world is just not mathematically elegant.
 
In the abstract, a system like Torg's is as close to the mathematical ideal as one can come (answering the objections about DC Heroes). In practice, the attempt to mathematically define a strong and intimate link between real world values and game measurements (Strength of 10 = can lift 100 kilos, Dex 10 = can run 100m in 10 seconds) inevitably requires fudge factors, caveats, and exemptions.
 
Even then, the scale is 5-8-13 (human min, avg, max), which doesn't appeal to simplicity or aesthetics. Plus, it's laughable. Max Str is actually 12, max Dex is actually 10, and while mass is a good stand-in for Toughness, that puts the obese human max at between 14 and 15 and regular human max at around a 9-10.
 
I've done the research on real world performance, and tried to fiddle with scales to match, but there are no elegant scales and no exemption-free gaming. Eventually, I had to chuck the concept entirely.
 
Again, it comes down to: what kind of game are you trying to make? What mechanical elements are you including, and why?
 
Start with those, then retroactively define Lift and Carry values to match. Shadowrun and GURPS both have different attribute scales, but their calculated values for L&C are are comparable. If the game mechanics are playable, rough equivalence to real world performance is acceptable.
 
(There used to be an RPG Olympics site that calculated how fast/strong characters from a dozen systems were. It was interesting, unfortunately it's vanished. But it supported my "comparable to real world performance" contention.)

(Just to note I wrote previous post above before yours was up. Probably doesn't change anything but FYI).
I'll have to ponder your response some more.
 
I don't know that I can give up on searching for the One True Perfect System but I think your answer is interesting because the emphasis it puts on 'defining a link between real-world performance' and the scale. That's definitely something I should be considering more since I'd previously though of 'best' more in terms of mechanical convenience (minimizing table lookups and modifiers, ease of recalculating ability damage), last several posts on bench pressing things notwithstanding...
 
Possibly the need to define stats in real terms is why people tend not like stuff like e.g. Blue Rose where they dropped the normal D&D stat scale and just used the modifiers...
 
Hmm.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;530597See my post above, which is all about exactly this.

Sorry I seem to be out of phase with the conversation!

Quote from: jibbajibba;530596No the idea is that there are human tasks (say rank D) these are things any human could do. You don;t need to make an Int check to open a door. A dog with E x inteligence however would need to make an Int Check to open a door.
Basically it takes a system like the Marvel one and allows you to compare between different ranks. In the Marvel system normal humans can't be effectivly compared becuase they are all the same compared to most superheroes. This system lets you still compare all humans on an effective range but it gives you alternate ranges for different categories of thing.

OK, gotcha. I could see it being used to extend a system without having huger numbers then, although maybe there might be problems around the scale borders. Again hmm.
 

QuoteNow I am just riffing with this so I haven't even considered how it wourl work with a damage system liek hit points but my guess would be that in basic play a Rank C Strength thing just couldn;t harm a Rank B Con thing. etc.  

That works. I guess that isn't just Con so much as actual physical toughness (some supers games do that e.g. DC Heroes has a "Body" stat where a 10 = literally steel-hard skin).

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;530595Superhumans are a bit of an edge case really. Again nice if a system handles this, but its only a minor consideration, usually (unless I was making a supers game - in which case I'd have to concede that the demands of supers mean the ideal system for them is different to everyone else..).
 
I'd agree that the logarithmic nature of DC scales it up probably too quickly for it to be super-useful outside of mega-super-heroic action ? The idea of attributes having an exponential scale, though (rather than linear like MSH ?) is workable I think, if the doublings happen less frequently; 3.5 D&D for example has a scale where +10 Strength = x4 lifting capacity.

That is what I meant with that last line.  It works fine with scores in the 0-9 range, if you want logarithmic scaling.  Since the numbers start getting pretty far apart as you get higher, apply a penalty for each percent over the minimum or something.  So a Str 8 would have a 1% penalty for every .25 pounds over 256 they attempt to lift, or something.  If you don't them having even a chance to infringe on the Str 9 character, do a half pound or a full pound for each percent.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to discourage you.  It is certainly possible to mix human and super-human if that is what you want, it's just very, very difficult.  You mentioned giants above; allow them a Str of 15 or 16, maybe dragons have Str 18, and anything above that not available to mortal creatures under any circumstances other than divine ascension.

Alternately, if you don't mind digging your calculator out, you could have fractional scores as well.  Like Str 3.7 or 8.2.  That would give you a lifting capacity of 12.996lbs and 294.066lbs respectively.  It may be too fine grained at the lower scores, so perhaps only use it above 7 or 8, like Exceptional Strength in AD&D 1st.  That would make Str 8.75 just about exactly the maximum weight dead lifted by a person.  You could even simplify things by using .25 increments above 7 or 8 or whatever.  Then you don't have to track 7.2 or 8.46 or something goofy.

You can set the doublings to occur less frequently, but that is starting to look like a chart.  I like charts, so I am not bringing that up as a problem, mind.  If you wanted to use a number smaller than 2, but stick with the exponent thing, you probably shouldn't go lower than 1.8; that gives a lifting capacity of 357lbs at a score of 10.  Much lower than that, and you will be looking at a pretty big range of low-end.  About 0-15 at 1.5.

The math just gets wonky as hell, but if you want to try something like that, drop me a line, I can do some number fiddling and you can see what you are looking at.

I prefer named scales where each level has a certain name assciated to it. Since people will not be able to learn a great number of them, there can't be to many levels. 5 to 6 maybe. Scale can be increased by trippling it for a low, medium and high with each designation.

Quote from: StormBringer;530753That is what I meant with that last line.  It works fine with scores in the 0-9 range, if you want logarithmic scaling.  Since the numbers start getting pretty far apart as you get higher, apply a penalty for each percent over the minimum or something.  So a Str 8 would have a 1% penalty for every .25 pounds over 256 they attempt to lift, or something.  If you don't them having even a chance to infringe on the Str 9 character, do a half pound or a full pound for each percent.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to discourage you.  It is certainly possible to mix human and super-human if that is what you want, it's just very, very difficult.  You mentioned giants above; allow them a Str of 15 or 16, maybe dragons have Str 18, and anything above that not available to mortal creatures under any circumstances other than divine ascension.

Alternately, if you don't mind digging your calculator out, you could have fractional scores as well.  Like Str 3.7 or 8.2.  That would give you a lifting capacity of 12.996lbs and 294.066lbs respectively.  It may be too fine grained at the lower scores, so perhaps only use it above 7 or 8, like Exceptional Strength in AD&D 1st.  That would make Str 8.75 just about exactly the maximum weight dead lifted by a person.  You could even simplify things by using .25 increments above 7 or 8 or whatever.  Then you don't have to track 7.2 or 8.46 or something goofy.

You can set the doublings to occur less frequently, but that is starting to look like a chart.  I like charts, so I am not bringing that up as a problem, mind.  If you wanted to use a number smaller than 2, but stick with the exponent thing, you probably shouldn't go lower than 1.8; that gives a lifting capacity of 357lbs at a score of 10.  Much lower than that, and you will be looking at a pretty big range of low-end.  About 0-15 at 1.5.

The math just gets wonky as hell, but if you want to try something like that, drop me a line, I can do some number fiddling and you can see what you are looking at.

Thanks Stormy. The fractions is interesting as an idea - something I hadn't seen before really (will add to design archive)- although probably not what I'm looking for exactly.
Not exactly trying to design the ultimate supers game but I could mostly avoid lots of complex calculations, I think, by working with "Size" scores of objects instead of having to work with pounds (or kilograms). Thanks, though!

Quote from: 1of3;530755I prefer named scales where each level has a certain name assciated to it. Since people will not be able to learn a great number of them, there can't be to many levels. 5 to 6 maybe. Scale can be increased by trippling it for a low, medium and high with each designation.

If you can describe it, what's the appeal of just having 'ranks' like FUDGE/FATE/MSH (/Amber), rather than numbers?

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;530795Thanks Stormy. The fractions is interesting as an idea - something I hadn't seen before really (will add to design archive)- although probably not what I'm looking for exactly.
Not exactly trying to design the ultimate supers game but I could mostly avoid lots of complex calculations, I think, by working with "Size" scores of objects instead of having to work with pounds (or kilograms). Thanks, though!

Welcome!  The size scores for various objects is a good idea, you can throw in a modifier for density as well without screwing up the calculations too much, and you can still keep track of the actual 'size'.  So, a bowling ball would be about size 2, but a bowling ball made of lead would be size 2 x density 5, for an effective 'size' of 10.  Still not bulky, but really damn heavy.

Sorry about the major derail into supers, I only intended it as an example, but I went a little overboard.  

Quote from: StormBringer;530845Welcome!  The size scores for various objects is a good idea, you can throw in a modifier for density as well without screwing up the calculations too much, and you can still keep track of the actual 'size'.  So, a bowling ball would be about size 2, but a bowling ball made of lead would be size 2 x density 5, for an effective 'size' of 10.  Still not bulky, but really damn heavy.

Sorry about the major derail into supers, I only intended it as an example, but I went a little overboard.  

Yep that'd work..!
And pfft no problem. Not that far off topic, and a thread that can't survive derailing doesn't deserve to live.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;530851Yep that'd work..!
And pfft no problem. Not that far off topic, and a thread that can't survive derailing doesn't deserve to live.

:hatsoff: