Hello all,
With some interest I've looked at some of the recent discussion on this forum, and have come to the conclusion that its time to shift gears here.
At first, I was willing to allow a certain amount of venting of steam of Forge-related discussion, since I was also wanting to do some steam-venting myself.
But as of now, I would like to make a REQUEST of all the participants of this forum in particular: This forum is supposed to be about game and game mechanic design, and developing new practical theories for those designs. And, secondarily, for discussing what should be the "Landmarks" or foundational assumptions for the making of these theories. Its not supposed to be a place to discuss the Forge or GNS.
So I'm going to ask if the participants on this forum could try to stop talking about GNS, or the Forge, and start ponying up with new ideas instead.
I wanted to make this the one place on the entire fucking internet where you can talk about theory without having to talk about GNS on the Forge's terms. So that's what we're going to do.
To that end, I realize that I might have made a mistake in titling this forum the way I did, as it put the emphasis on Theory and not on game design. So effective immediately, the new name of this forum is "Game Design and Theory", rather than the other way around.
Some of you were suggesting that this place be named "practical tips"; I had intended for the "Actual Play and Craft" forum to be for that, but it seems that the "actual play" term is something that is a little intimidating to many people, so I've inverted the title of that Forum too. The point there isn't to make up gamelogs of your sessions, its to talk about stuff that you've done or that's happened in your games, with the overall goal of improving your Craft and helping others improve theirs.
That is all.
RPGPundit
Ah, one more thing. The sort of threads I would like to see more of on this forum, just so that people have an idea of what's a good start, would be more stuff like the "Starting Small" thread, the "players participating in world design" thread, etc etc.
Not to mention that it would be cool if people started talking about ideas for designing actual games.
RPGpundit
Sorry to keep adding to this, but two more things:
1. I will step up on this note by not talking about the Forge or GNS on here anymore, and asking that such discussion be halted rather than jumping in with my Flaming Keystrokes of Truth as is my wont.
2. Forge-fans and theorists are welcome to be here! But the idea is to be here to derive NEW theory from DIFFERENT foundations than that which the Forge works with. You see the Forge as being the place where you discuss theory for people who are dis-satisfied with gaming as it is. Some of you think all gamers are secretly dis-satisfied; you might not get very far here if you believe that. But for those of you who don't, and can accept the concept that the majority of gamers actually have fun playing RPGs the way they are, why not step up to the challenge of devising theory not for the minority of "narrativists" out there, but for making better and different and more effective games that are meant to appeal to the majority of "mainstream gamers" out there?
Look at it as an intellectual exercise if you want. You guys like that sort of thing.
Anyways, those of you who don't think GNS is God-Derived Dogma, and just one possible set of foundations and criteria; why not spend your time here trying to invent a whole new and different set of foundations and criteria? Why not see if you can make something more workable and more appealing to mainstream gamers than GNS?
RPGPundit
Why not just call it: Game Mechanics and Design
That should include theory if someone wants to speak to it.
We should bear in mind that there are still not that many posters on here so I think that splitting RPG discussion into "general RPG chat" and "abstract RPG Chat" is a little bit silly as it's spreading what is broadly the same kind of talk over 2 different forums.
I just having the one forum for RPG discussion, for the moment at least, might be a good idea.
Either way, I don't think we need a specialised "RPG Theory" forum. I have some other organisation ideas but I'll put a post in the relevant forum.
EDIT : Actually, no I won't, I'll keep it here.
Do we really need a special forum for the Pundit? It does send the message that this is a vanity forum and he could alternatively post his ideas to the columns area (thereby supporting that bit) and then reposting with a link in the general RPG bit where we can all discuss his latest insanity... um idea.
In my experience of running a forum, in the early days it's important to keep the churn going and the best way to do that is to concentrate posting into as few a number of forums as possible that way people don't have to go hunting for ideas.
Just a couple of thoughts...
You know, Mr. Analytical has a good point... Too many subforums might divide attention.
Wow, man. You've done good things with the site so far. Do you really want to shoot all your progress in the foot like this?
This is the first step towards a good board going bad.
-O
Quote from: RPGPunditSo I'm going to ask if the participants on this forum could try to stop talking about GNS, or the Forge, and start ponying up with new ideas instead.
I take it that's the therpgsite.com as a whole and not just the theory forum.
Interesting, that was the same thing RPGNet requested.
Yeah, that does come dangerously close to a topic-ban Pundit.
The fact is that this board is already finding a certain character and GNS discussions aren't part of it (largely because a sizeable chunk of the people on here hate the Forge). There's no need to comment on what can and can't be posted.
I don't think we're banned from discussing it, just requested not to.
I think technically I can start a thread called GNS for Furries in which I apply GNS theory to developing a shared gming game for furry fans, and while that would cause Pundit personal pain I wouldn't be stopped from doing so.
An alternative to Mr. Analytical's suggestion: just advertise the existence of the New Posts feature, which is an effective way of aggregating all the new discussion without having to hunt it down in each forum. At the same time, focused discussion that falls into one category or another can be a little more, um, coherent by putting it into the appropriate specialized forum.
But in the end I don't feel strongly about Mr. Analytical's idea one way or the other.
I do think that "Game Mechanics and Design" is a better title to minimize the temptation to spin airy totalizing grand unified theories. (Someone else had a suggestion with the word "homebrew" in it which was in the same spirit.)
Quote from: BalbinusI don't think we're banned from discussing it, just requested not to.
I take requests seriously from site owners. To me it equals a topic ban.
Oh well, no real loss. I was going to have to leave next week anyway or lose that $20.
I don't think it's a good idea to request for any topic to not be discussed. Things have been going well so far. If people want to talk about something, let 'em. Just ignore the threads that discuss the stuff you don't like.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonI don't think it's a good idea to request for any topic to not be discussed. Things have been going well so far. If people want to talk about something, let 'em. Just ignore the threads that discuss the stuff you don't like.
I agree here. I want to post about gaming stuff. No matter what it is, any kind of "topic-ban" makes me feel the site is turning much more purple.
Pundit, I think you're discovering if you didn't already know it, the burden of moderation. You practically have to self-censor to avoid giving the impression of censoring others.
Anyway, while it'd be nice to see Pundit's request as having no more weight as whatever nonsense any of us might post, I don't think that's practical.
It's not practical. It's ideological. And to give the Pundarg his credit, he's followed through on his ideology.
Quote from: JongWKYou know, Mr. Analytical has a good point... Too many subforums might divide attention.
The forums as we have them right now seem to be working out; most of them are being posted to regularly, and keeping up momentum. The only one that really isn't is the Craft of Gameplay and the Play-by-post fora, and I sort of assumed those would be low-volume.
And the Pundit's forum exists for two reasons:
1. I'm the chief admin. Its my perogative. You all deserve to bask in my glory.
2. More seriously, its actually to divert the whole issue of my personality AWAY from the main Roleplaying forum.
RPGPundit
Quote from: obrynWow, man. You've done good things with the site so far. Do you really want to shoot all your progress in the foot like this?
This is the first step towards a good board going bad.
-O
How so? Could you please explain your objections and why you think switching around the naming order of two forums is the first step to the board going bad?
RPGPundit
Quote from: gleichmanI take it that's the therpgsite.com as a whole and not just the theory forum.
Interesting, that was the same thing RPGNet requested.
No, no, the Theory forum. Not the site as a whole. If you really want to bitch about the Forge, which you in particular seem to have as your entire raison d'etre (that and threatening to leave at any time), you could do so on any of the other fora on this site.
But I would think that you in particular would appreciate the idea of having a forum for theory where the goal is not to let it get dominated by GNS-conventions.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalYeah, that does come dangerously close to a topic-ban Pundit.
The fact is that this board is already finding a certain character and GNS discussions aren't part of it (largely because a sizeable chunk of the people on here hate the Forge). There's no need to comment on what can and can't be posted.
Note that it was a strongly-worded REQUEST. Not an order.
It was me saying: "I think this is what would be most interesting for this forum, and would help us to stand out; if we were about theory but not forge-theory, and if we did something with this subforum rather than just bitch about the Forge. I'm hoping you guys will see it the same way and respect the mission statement of this subforum".
Its NOT me saying that I'm going to ban anyone or close anything.
I'm hoping you guys will get enthused with the concept of actually getting the whole issue of the Forge and GNS out of the limelight and try doing something different for a change.
RPGPundit
Quote from: BalbinusI don't think we're banned from discussing it, just requested not to.
I think technically I can start a thread called GNS for Furries in which I apply GNS theory to developing a shared gming game for furry fans, and while that would cause Pundit personal pain I wouldn't be stopped from doing so.
"Pain"? My lower intestine developed bleeding polyps at the mere thought of it.
But no, I wouldn't stop you.
RPGPundit
Quote from: gleichmanI take requests seriously from site owners. To me it equals a topic ban.
Oh well, no real loss. I was going to have to leave next week anyway or lose that $20.
So wait, because you feel like you can't talk about (bitch about) the Forge on here anymore, you are leaving?
You do realize that amounts to suggesting that the only reason you were here in the first place was to bitch about the Forge, right?
I mean, you're a smart guy, there's so much that you could contribute... why are you being such a fucking self-defeating waste?
RPGPundit
Quote from: BalbinusI think technically I can start a thread called GNS for Furries in which I apply GNS theory to developing a shared gming game for furry fans, and while that would cause Pundit personal pain I wouldn't be stopped from doing so.
:seppuku:
Quote from: RPGPunditYou do realize that amounts to suggesting that the only reason you were here in the first place was to bitch about the Forge, right?
No, YOU have to realise that there's more to managing a forum than good will. It also takes more than a little diplomacy and political nous. One of the main political issues surrounding RPG forums is the issue of freedom of speech.
When you, a person in authority, starts making statements about how we shouldn't talk about something, it sends out unpleasant shockwaves.
I agree that Brian is over-reacting a touch but you really do need to be careful about what you say when you step up onto your "community leader" soap box.
Quote from: RPGPunditI'm hoping you guys will get enthused with the concept of actually getting the whole issue of the Forge and GNS out of the limelight and try doing something different for a change.
RPGPundit
"Limelight"? "something different for a change"? I think this must be a "RPG.net" thang, because I frequent several game boards, and the Forge is a rare topic at any of them. For me, discussion of the Forge
is something different. I don't really have any interest in it, but it's something different for me.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalNo, YOU have to realise that there's more to managing a forum than good will. It also takes more than a little diplomacy and political nous. One of the main political issues surrounding RPG forums is the issue of freedom of speech.
Am I reading you correctly that by failing to ban or restrict anyone but instead merely request certain guidelines be followed, he is thereby inpinging the freedom of speech?
:confused:
Quote from: Caesar SlaadAm I reading you correctly that by failing to ban or restrict anyone but instead merely request certain guidelines be followed, he is thereby inpinging the freedom of speech?
No, not at all.
However, he is sending out the message that there are certain types of discussion that the management frown upon. Given the youth of the forum and the Pundit's reputation (not that mine is any better) it sends the wrong kind of message, especially when part of the identity the forum is trying to devellop is a forum for free and unfettered discussion.
Basically it sends the wrong kind of message is what I'm saying.
Quote from: RPGPunditSo wait, because you feel like you can't talk about (bitch about) the Forge on here anymore, you are leaving?
I'm leaving anyway. Internet isn't my thing anymore. All this does is perhaps speed it up a bit.
I actually find it rather funny in a way. Here we have a person who's infamous because of his attacks on the Forge, and his first topic ban is for attacks on the Forge.
:idunno:
Quote from: RPGPunditYou do realize that amounts to suggesting that the only reason you were here in the first place was to bitch about the Forge, right?
I'm here because an old online friend asked me to take a look. Nothing more. Some old friends to say hi to.
And yes, I enjoyed bitching about the Forge while I was here. Nothing like giving a dead horse a few kicks for old times sake.
Quote from: RPGPunditI mean, you're a smart guy, there's so much that you could contribute... why are you being such a fucking self-defeating waste?
Self-defeat implies that there was something to win. I think not.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWhen you, a person in authority, starts making statements about how we shouldn't talk about something, it sends out unpleasant shockwaves.
I agree that Brian is over-reacting a touch but you really do need to be careful about what you say when you step up onto your "community leader" soap box.
This reminds me a little bit of HinterWelt's thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1840) focusing on players upset that the rules don't let them make the type of character they want.
If the Pundit says "Uh, could we not talk about GNS?" I think most of the posters on the board are strong-minded enough to say, "Hm, interesting." or "Screw you, Pundit, pry my Forge theory from my cold, dead fingers."
Authority figures are only authority figures if you let them be.
:chillpill: :)
Quote from: ReimdallIf the Pundit says "Uh, could we not talk about GNS?" I think most of the posters on the board are strong-minded enough to say, "Hm, interesting." or "Screw you, Pundit, pry my Forge theory from my cold, dead fingers."
I don't see it as a question of being strong-minded, it's one of basic politeness. His board and all you know.
Pundit, here is a suggestion, make a subforum call it "Forge Talk" or some such. i doubt it will slow posting on the rest of the board, and people wont feel they're being pushed around, or whatever it is that people feel when they percieve a topic ban.
Change your request from "don't talk about it," to "talk about it all you like but keep it in here" - kind of like an adult forum, but sans the porn and charm. That way, if a given thread starts to go "wrong" you can split it, remname it and move it over. Nothing lost, nobody pissed off and silenced. Furthermore, anyone who doesn't give a rats ass about theory (me for instance) can avoid the same.
No, I think that would be a terrible idea, it would just focus discussion on Forge-type theory. Better that everyone should just get it out of their system. It'll be a great day when somebody comes here to bash the Forge and everyone just yawns.
Quote from: RPGPunditHow so? Could you please explain your objections and why you think switching around the naming order of two forums is the first step to the board going bad?
RPGPundit
I wasn't talking about changing forum names, and I think you know that. I'm talking about the other bit - where you want to discourage conversations about GNS.
I see this request as your way of trying to change the board's tone from what it is - a pretty good selection of people and viewpoints - to something closer to your ideology.
That's a pretty big step towards driving a lively board into the shithole, if you ask me.
-O
You bitches don't seem to see that the Pumpkin has retreated from his original stance. He's softened his language. Compare the Landmarks thread.
"Oh, oh, that man requested something politely! What a fascist!"
Quote from: ReimdallThis reminds me a little bit of HinterWelt's thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1840) focusing on players upset that the rules don't let them make the type of character they want.
If the Pundit says "Uh, could we not talk about GNS?" I think most of the posters on the board are strong-minded enough to say, "Hm, interesting." or "Screw you, Pundit, pry my Forge theory from my cold, dead fingers."
Authority figures are only authority figures if you let them be.
:chillpill: :)
Or.. you know.. maybe "Hey, the Pundit's got a point, making our own systems and theories sounds like something more worthwhile than bitching about the Forge". Just maybe.
Anyways, it looks like this announcement had the desired effect, judging by the new threads since its statement.
RPGPundit
Quote from: obrynI see this request as your way of trying to change the board's tone from what it is - a pretty good selection of people and viewpoints - to something closer to your ideology.
That's a pretty big step towards driving a lively board into the shithole, if you ask me.
-O
It doesn't have to be anything to do with "my ideology". Shit, you can make up theories that I utterly despise, if you like. You can make suggestions (like the one about combat-free games, or players determining parts of the game world) that I hate.
Just make something new. I'm afraid I don't quite see how a request and a re-iteration of this board's actual purpose is in any way the first step of a slip into fascism.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit"Pain"? My lower intestine developed bleeding polyps at the mere thought of it.
Then my work in this thread is done :)
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalOne of the main political issues surrounding RPG forums is the issue of freedom of speech.
Oy vey. Yet again an American starts babbling about his freedoms which nobody at all is actually suppressing.
Here, let's test it.
Hey, RPGPundit! You're a cocksmock! Ron Edwards roxxorz! The praxis of contemporaneous roleplaying dialectic is one characterised by excessive circumlocution and pretentious verbiage designed to obscure the banality, or indeed one might be not-unjustified in saying, concealing the hollow vacuum of the ideological paradigm of the dominant heirarchy.Hey look, I didn't get banned! Totally amazing. ZOMFG! The mod said he'd "rather not" hear this stuff! I'm opprezzorzed! :boohoo:
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWhen you, a person in authority, starts making statements about how we shouldn't talk about something, it sends out unpleasant shockwaves.
Authority my hairy arse. If you don't like what he says, tell him to fuck off. Or you could screw up your little eyes with your tiny little fists, and run off crying like a little girl, like gleichman likes to do. "Waa waah I'm being oppressed!" :melodramatic:
Quote from: gleichmanI'm leaving anyway. Internet isn't my thing anymore. All this does is perhaps speed it up a bit.
So you keep promising. You've quit forums and come back almost as many times as Gareth-Michael Skarka has "quit the industry."
Quote from: RPGPunditJust make something new.
You fucking tyrant! You know what I say to you, huh?!
:diarrhea:
Quote from: JimBobOzOy vey. Yet again an American starts babbling about his freedoms which nobody at all is actually suppressing.
I'm not an American you shit-eating Abo-basher! Keep that up and there'll be NO BARWORK for you young man.
JimBob, without in any way wishing to discourage you from your rants, Mr Analytical is no more American than I am.
Otherwise, I think you've had better rants.:unitedkingdom: :serenade:
The second smilie isn't relevant, but it's too good not to use anyway.
Fellas, fellas, fellas. I'm an American (albeit one living in Spain at the moment). Please, direct your bashing here. There's no need for Commonwealth-on-Commonwealth hate when you've a perfectly good ugly American to abuse.
Quote from: JimBobOzSo you keep promising. You've quit forums and come back almost as many times as Gareth-Michael Skarka has "quit the industry."
And yet, I never stay more than two or three weeks- and never return to the same place (this isn't nutkinland anymore).
PS: For any interested, while I'm basicaly done here (ahead of my schedule again, you got to love Admins don't you) I'll hang out in 'my' thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1738) for a while more, some stuff to finish up there.
Quote from: RPGPunditAnyways, it looks like this announcement had the desired effect, judging by the new threads since its statement.
lol
It had already just about ran it's course anyway. If you'd kept your big fat mouth shut I seriously doubt there would have been much of a difference.
Quote from: RPGPunditOr.. you know.. maybe "Hey, the Pundit's got a point, making our own systems and theories sounds like something more worthwhile than bitching about the Forge". Just maybe.
RPGPundit
Indeed.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalI'm not an American you shit-eating Abo-basher! Keep that up and there'll be NO BARWORK for you young man.
I'm too old for that barwork permit anyway :D
Anyway, as for nationality, "home is where the heart is." If you babble about freedom of speech, and claim oppression a lot, then you're an honourary American. Like that traitor Edmund Burke.
It's clear to me now, the RPG site hates freedom.
Quote from: JimBobOzAnyway, as for nationality, "home is where the heart is." If you babble about freedom of speech, and claim oppression a lot, then you're an honourary American. Like that traitor Edmund Burke.
If you can't flummox 'em with facts, baffle 'em with bullshit, huh?
Quote from: ColonelHardissonIf you can't flummox 'em with facts, baffle 'em with bullshit, huh?
Isn't that what rpg theory is all about? I'm just getting in practice for this subforum :D
Quote from: AosIt's clear to me now, the RPG site hates freedom.
:D :D :D
Quote from: JimBobOzIsn't that what rpg theory is all about? I'm just getting in practice for this subforum :D
Damn! Nice comeback! :win:
Quote from: ColonelHardissonDamn! Nice comeback! :win:
Thanks! It took me about half an hour to think of. It's usually a problem when witty comebacks only show up hours later. But it's not a problem on message boards. There, even the dull can be witty. :D