Like many members of this site, I majored in History, and consider myself a tremendous history buff. I know that historical campaigns are out there, but that aside from one's own texts and internet research there isn't much to go on as far as published gaming resources.
So I thought about recruiting a few like-minded people, and doing a line called Historical Cast: NPC collections for any game. I recall GURPS doing something like this with Who's Who, which I thought was a great idea, if a little too generalized and non-specific for my tastes. Each historical figure would be written up with an informative biography, a public domain likeness/depiction, a system-generic rating system in several key areas such as "Intellect: Excellent; Physical Strength: Fair", etc. After that, there would be several short ideas for incorporating that character in a campaign.
The idea would be to have each character have a page of their own in a collection of individuals from a particular area. So you could have perhaps 8-12 characters from one historical period in a pdf download, perfect for folks needing NPCs, minor and major, for when they play in that area.
Just some sample product ideas:
Revolutionary War: American Generals and Officers
The Mexican-American War
The Tokugawa Shogunate
Julio-Claudian Emperors
The American Civil War: Lee's Lieutenants
The American Civil War: Union Spies & Operatives
The Court of Louis XVI
Waterloo
The First/Second Triumvirate
Roundheads/Cavaliers: The English Civil War
The Spanish Civil War
World War Two: So many, many ones to do with this.
The Napoleonic War at Sea: the Nile/Trafalgar/Copenhagen
Three Kingdoms: Yellow Turbans Rebellion
The Time of Shakespeare
It would also likely to be smart to do a survey, and see what historical eras gamers would most like for settings. I figured these collections could sell for around $1-$3 each for a pdf download--no one would get rich off of it, but perhaps they'd help out some folks who want to run a historical campaign but are intimidated or uncertain of their ability to do so. I also have no design skill, so I suppose someone would be needed to make some sort of minimalist attractive design.
Thoughts? I know it wouldn't break any sales records, but might be a fun project. Maybe there'd even be a publisher interested in helping out/hosting it.
You might want to ping Pundit about this one. I know he has gathered quite a lot of information for our Roman & 3 Kingdoms campaigns.
I would be happy to help out. You know I love the historical stuff!
Bill
Dang you, Bill! Got in there ahead of me! :D
-clash
Well, if either of you fellas would be kind enough to offer a little publishing advice if this gets off the ground, I'd sure appreciate it. I have no idea how to go about it, other than I know I'd need help... :o
Happy to, Zachary!
-clash
Well, let me ask you gents this first: would this be a viable product? I imagined as something, cheap, bare-bones but hopefully generic enough but detailed to a point where its useful to a wide range of gamers...
Quote from: Zachary The FirstWell, let me ask you gents this first: would this be a viable product? I imagined as something, cheap, bare-bones but hopefully generic enough but detailed to a point where its useful to a wide range of gamers...
IIRC Osprey had a series of books like this and palladium might have also. The Osprey books did well. They were saddle stitch statement sized book but they were focused on a historical figure and then fleshed out his enemies, allies, armies and government.
Regardless, I think something like this would do well as a PDF. I think XRP might have historical reference as a line. The important aspects would be focus, level of detail, ease to digest and use, and price. If you do a five page supplement and it is a series of hard dates, a droning timeline and little else, it would be a hard sell. I would approach it as almost more of a story format. Not fiction but bring the characters alive inserting facts into the prose to make it easier to read and digest. Of course, we should also look at quick references like a timeline table with major events.
Just my take. Clash?
Bill
I agree completely, Bill. Almost word for word.
-clash
I'd love to do something like this for Roman settings. Shit, you could do a whole series of that alone.
The Judeo-claudians, the Year of the 4 Emperors, the Flavians, the Five Good Emperors, etc etc.
RPGPundit
So Zach, something like this?
(http://www.hinterwelt.com/images/hist/histcover.gif)
Oh, yeah.
Bill you're a wiz.
Pundit, I'm getting excited about the possibilities of this. The Cataline Conspiracy, Gracchian Reforms, Sulla's Dictatorship....wow.
I was also thinking some fringer ones, like Notable Tories of the American Revolution or Confederate Spies of the Civil War would be a blast.
We have enough historians that if we had an editor, we could put out some of these fairly easily, I think.
Clash, Bill, thanks for your continued input on this, btw.
Is that an actual product, Bill? Or something you whipped up? It looks sweet.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceIs that an actual product, Bill? Or something you whipped up? It looks sweet.
-clash
I whipped it up last night. BTW- Tower Source is also something I whipped up. I have no idea such a company exists but I did not want to put HinterWelt on the page since this is more of a cooperative effort.
Maybe we should re-title though to "Fringe History". I think "Game Source" is descriptive if a bit dry.
Linda might be able to edit but she will truly let you know if it is too dry. Length would also be a factor.
Glad you liked it guys. Let me know if you want changes.
Bill
Actually I like it as it is. Nice and clean. I also like Tower Source. :D
-clash
So are there any folks here who'd seriously be interested in dedicating a bit of their skills and/or time to this? Folks with an interest in a particular historical era or eras?
If so, we can start to talk about format, page count, who to go through, etc...
EDIT: I like Tower Source, too.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstSo are there any folks here who'd seriously be interested in dedicating a bit of their skills and/or time to this? Folks with an interest in a particular historical era or eras?
If so, we can start to talk about format, page count, who to go through, etc...
EDIT: I like Tower Source, too.
I would be happy to handle layout and make up any maps needed. I have a system for cleaning up and colorizing the public domain maps (a lot of historical stuff is in PD) so I could handle maps. I don't think I have the cycles for writing.
If everyone would agree, I could also offer it as an imprint of HinterWelt. Or if there are objections, Clash might be able to do it for BMT or Flying Mice. So, it would be Tower Source, an imprint of HinterWelt or Flying Mice.
So, two or three column? Portrait or Landscape?
This is fun. :)
Bill
Gosh, I honestly don't know. I'm so despicably a noob at this that I'm not sure which would work better. Offhand, I would say two-column....thoughts on something else?
I would personally have objections going through either one of those two fine companies!
EDIT: I like the "Resources for the Resourceful GM", but perhaps we should put "historical" in there somewhere?
I also still ike the idea of assigned old MSH-style stats to several different areas to help for generic statting purpose, but we should likely figure out what those should be...
Quote from: HinterWeltI would be happy to handle layout and make up any maps needed. I have a system for cleaning up and colorizing the public domain maps (a lot of historical stuff is in PD) so I could handle maps. I don't think I have the cycles for writing.
If everyone would agree, I could also offer it as an imprint of HinterWelt. Or if there are objections, Clash might be able to do it for BMT or Flying Mice. So, it would be Tower Source, an imprint of HinterWelt or Flying Mice.
So, two or three column? Portrait or Landscape?
This is fun. :)
Bill
I'd be happy to set up a BMT imprint, but I'd take Bill's offer if I were you. I have literally no time to donate. I'm writing for seven different projects at the moment! Besides, Bill can out-layout me blindfolded with both hands broken and hanging upside down by one foot.
-clash
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceI'd be happy to set up a BMT imprint, but I'd take Bill's offer if I were you. I have literally no time to donate. I'm writing for seven different projects at the moment! Besides, Bill can out-layout me blindfolded with both hands broken and hanging upside down by one foot.
-clash
-clash
Oh, you will be involved Clash! By the gods, you will be involved! You spoke up and now you will need to write a piece (at least an intro) on some fruity navel commander or some such. :p
As to three vs two column, I was just wondering if Zach had a preference. Small pieces will often benefit from 3 column since it will allow inlay of art/maps better and stretches the page count. Many magazines use this format. Two column are good for dense text book style reading. Either will work.
I will try and post examples of each down the road.
Bill
Well, great! Guess I need to start looking at public domain items--I've got a website that works as a search engine for public domain stuff--need to hit up my del.ico.ous when I get home.
I'd like to see that 2-column/3-column comparison, when you get a sec.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstWell, great! Guess I need to start looking at public domain items--I've got a website that works as a search engine for public domain stuff--need to hit up my del.ico.ous when I get home.
I'd like to see that 2-column/3-column comparison, when you get a sec.
So, this is a section of Roman history that Linda made me cut so that Roma could be cut down from the 500 page manuscript it started life out as. Man, am I verbose. ;)
Two Column (http://www.hinterwelt.com/hist/RomaHistoryOld-2col.pdf)
Three Column (http://www.hinterwelt.com/hist/RomaHistoryOld-3col.pdf)
You wont hurt my feelings if you say you cannot see the difference. I get it all the time from Linda. :)
Bill
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c220/rvilliers/Forum%20pics/approvedstamp.jpg)
:)
I kind of like the 3 column look.
Quote from: HinterWeltOh, you will be involved Clash! By the gods, you will be involved! You spoke up and now you will need to write a piece (at least an intro) on some fruity navel commander or some such.
Bill
Oh, I'm sure I'll be doing something. :D
-clash
O.k. So what is the topic for the first one so I can get looking for clip art?
Bill
Well, I'm not sure. I was thinking either Eccentrics & Oddballs of the American Civil War, Confederate Spies, Patriot/Tory Officers of the American Revolution, the Catiline Conspiracy (if El Pundito is thinking of partaking, I might leave some of the Roman history to him at first), True Outlaws of the West, The Elizabethan Court, etc. What would be a strong first outing. US History (most notable the US Civil War) is my specialty, but I'd be happy with any of those. Thoughts?
Oh, one thing you might want to consider: give different profiles of each character, like Amber does.
I think the format for all this is very important to determine just how useful it would be to people. I think what people would want is a general set of "stats" (not as in game stats for a specific system, but a rating of their strengths and weaknesses in things like charisma, leadership, military capacity, physical ability, intelligence, etc), a BRIEF history, and some extra details that are interesting (as in, perhaps not common knowledge to all) and USEFUL for rounding out the individual as an NPC in game.
In other words, you want short, sweet, and lots of it. And of course, each "era" would benefit from a point-form timeline of major events.
I'd be willing to handle any era of Imperial Rome. I'd leave Republican Rome to someone else who was more qualified in terms of either academic credentials or amateur passion.
RPGPundit
Quote from: JongWKOh, one thing you might want to consider: give different profiles of each character, like Amber does.
Im not sure how useful this would be; but it could be useful to give two or three different "presentations" of how the NPC can be portrayed in a game, or what areas of interest he might participate in where he might come in contact with PCs.
RPGPundit
I am largely in agreement with Pundit. Here's what I was thinking:
Top of the page, big bold letters, NPC's name.
Under that, birthplace, born/died, physical chaeacteristics if known.
Upper right-hand corner, pic of said NPC.
Then, in a box, stats such as Intelligence, Leadership, Physical Health, Charisma, etc, all rated either: Dismal, Poor, Fair, Good, Excellent, and possibly one more on the plus side (Amazing? Outstanding).
Then, as Pundit says, a brief history, emphasizing possible plot hooks, and hopefully written in an engaging manner (and remembering brevity is the soul of wit), full of entertaining facts (such as [SIZE=-1]Marcius Porcius Cato ending all of his speeches with "Carthago Delenda Est", or Stonewall Jackson's proclivity to suck lemons and keep one arm raised above his head).
After that a few tips and hints on how to integrate the NPC into your game, with a few adventure seeds to boot.
Finish up the formatting by including a map/illustration pertinent to the character (ex: a battle map of Pharsalus for Ceasar, or an illustration of Traflagar for Lord Nelson.
Perhaps in the back of each book, we could even include a few short blurbs of trivia for each era/setting that would help layers give their game a more authentic feel.
More thoughts?
I'm thinking of doing a US Civil War one first, ease myself in.
[/SIZE]
Cleaned up Logo for Tower Source.
(http://www.hinterwelt.com/images/hist/tglogo.gif)
Quote from: Zachary The FirstI'm thinking of doing a US Civil War one first, ease myself in.
[/SIZE]
(http://www.hinterwelt.com/images/hist/HistCoverCiv1.gif)
(http://www.hinterwelt.com/images/hist/HistCoverCiv2.gif)
(http://www.hinterwelt.com/images/hist/HistCoverCiv3.gif)
(http://www.hinterwelt.com/images/hist/HistCoverCiv4.gif)
Those are all excellent. I think I'll go with the Civil War: Eccentrics and Oddballs first. Is that "The Union Is Dissolved!" broadsheet in the public domain? I think it'd make a great interior graphic. As for the front illustration, Any chance we can get a PD photo of General Richard "Dick" Ewell or Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson? Both will be featured inside, I believe...
Quote from: RPGPunditIm not sure how useful this would be; but it could be useful to give two or three different "presentations" of how the NPC can be portrayed in a game, or what areas of interest he might participate in where he might come in contact with PCs.
That's more or less what I had in mind. For example:
-Octavian, Heir to Julius Caesar
-Augustus, Architect of the Empire
-Augustus, Pater Familias
Quote from: JongWKThat's more or less what I had in mind. For example:
-Octavian, Heir to Julius Caesar
-Augustus, Architect of the Empire
-Augustus, Pater Familias
Ah, well, I would say that this would apply in the case of a very few very influential and long-lived historical figures (like Augustus) who might need more than one "stat bloc" to cover them in different periods/stages of their lives. In some cases, i concede that this would be useful. But not in many other cases.
Anyways, what I would like to do in all this is pick an era (say, going by Roman Dynasty) and detail all the NPCs I possibly could for that era in that book, along with a timeline of events. Basically the perfect resource for someone who wants to write a campaign in that era.
I don't see that the "civil war" book examples posted above would really be useful; they're too limited in scope. I think it'd be better to do one big book because that would actually have everything the GM needs in that one product. If I had to buy 4 books to get all the details i needed for a 4-year civil war era, I probably wouldn't bother. Just my opinion, though.
RPGPundit
it might also be better, focus more on the well known events of the time as well. The fact is, while most of you folks with degrees in history might find some of the lesser known events interesting, many lay people would not have the slightest clue of what you are talking about.
Quote from: Mcrowit might also be better, focus more on the well known events of the time as well. The fact is, while most of you folks with degrees in history might find some of the lesser known events interesting, many lay people would not have the slightest clue of what you are talking about.
Well, my reasoning was that their are plenty of resources for the big events: Caesar's Death, for example, or Gettysburg, will have plenty written on them. Gaius Scribonius Curio or Joshua Chamberlain, perhaps not as much. Perhaps the books could vary in scope--I could see a book detailed 50 NPCs for the US Civil War in general being quite useful indeed. My original thought was a focused, short product with a low price, but I can see the other side, too.
Honestly, if this gets off the ground, there are several resources that might be worth considering, including books that detail single battles, leaders, and possible RPG integration of such as well.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstWell, my reasoning was that their are plenty of resources for the big events: Caesar's Death, for example, or Gettysburg, will have plenty written on them. Gaius Scribonius Curio or Joshua Chamberlain, perhaps not as much. Perhaps the books could vary in scope--I could see a book detailed 50 NPCs for the US Civil War in general being quite useful indeed. My original thought was a focused, short product with a low price, but I can see the other side, too.
Honestly, if this gets off the ground, there are several resources that might be worth considering, including books that detail single battles, leaders, and possible RPG integration of such as well.
Solution:
Sell the short books as pdf only, and collect related small books together for print or big pdf.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceSolution:
Sell the short books as pdf only, and collect related small books together for print or big pdf.
-clash
That'll work! Compiling a smaller book at first should be easier on my limited time right now, anyways.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstThat'll work! Compiling a smaller book at first should be easier on my limited time right now, anyways.
Very short books are uneconomical to print anyway. You generally run into a set-up fee or other fixed fee which can be amortized better over a larger book.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceVery short books are uneconomical to print anyway. You generally run into a set-up fee or other fixed fee which can be amortized better over a larger book.
-clash
To be honest, for the short stuff, I had just envisioned pdf anyways. But this is really interesting stuff! I'm glad you guys are willing to go through this with me!
Quote from: flyingmiceVery short books are uneconomical to print anyway. You generally run into a set-up fee or other fixed fee which can be amortized better over a larger book.
-clash
Ispecialize in short books and you need to qualify that statement. Printing a 400 page tome means you can charge $50 or more. Printing a 32 page adventure means you will most likely only be able to charge $10-14. So, properly planned, short books can work but you need to be mindful of changes in costs. No, if we are talking about short runs vs long runs...yes, overhead is critical. However, there are ways around that as well.
All that said, I do agree, short PDFs with a compilation at the end is a good way to offset printing/production costs.
I know you want to remain system neutral but have you thought of appendices with d20, Iridium and any other system we can use stats in them?
Just might increase appeal even if it is something like a table
poor = 3-6
bad = 7-10
average = ....
Might be helpful.
Bill
How about using the FUDGE trait levels?
+4.........Pinnacle
+3............Superb
+2 ............Great
+1 ............Good
+0 ...............Fair
–1 .........Mediocre
–2...............Poor
–3 .........Terrible
-4........beyond bad
Since FUDGE trait levels are easily converted into most any system. The +/- above convert directly to d20 and +4/-4 covers human range.
Well, since it's a HW imprint, perhaps one sheet in the back of each product with Iridium, as well as FUDGE and d20. That's something that would only have to be done once, and could be used in all the products.
The more I think about that, the more I like it!
Doing a Iridiums System coversion will be a bit more of a challenge, but I think with Bills help I could do it.
Funny thing is by time we are done with it there will be:
D20 to Iridium
Irudium to D20
D20 to Fudge
Fudge to D20
Fudge to Iridium
Iridium to Fudge
So using the product will also allow conversions between all three systems.
Quote from: McrowDoing a Iridiums System coversion will be a bit more of a challenge, but I think with Bills help I could do it.
Funny thing is by time we are done with it there will be:
D20 to Iridium
Irudium to D20
D20 to Fudge
Fudge to D20
Fudge to Iridium
Iridium to Fudge
So using the product will also allow conversions between all three systems.
We could do it much simpler if we wanted. For instance:
State the ranges in each system as you pointed out for each system. Three tables.
Quick summary of skills in the same manner. For instance, for Iridium it would look like:
100%.........Pinnacle
90%............Superb
80% ............Great
70% ............Good
60% ...............Fair
50% .........Mediocre
40%...............Poor
30% .........Terrible
20%........beyond bad
Finally, since it is historical, we wont have to worry about magical or spell abilities.
Stating everything in the relative in the main text allows us to map those relatives to a number of systems. It might take as much as three pages but it would be the same reference for all the books.
Or are you thinking something more complex?
Bill
yeah, skills are easy.
attributes are a little more tricky for Iridium System since it does not use a universal bonus table that is used for all attributes. But since multiplying iridium stats by 5 gets you % anyway, it should work for those as well.
Quote from: Mcrowyeah, skills are easy.
attributes are a little more tricky for Iridium System since it does not use a universal bonus table that is used for all attributes. But since multiplying iridium stats by 5 gets you % anyway, it should work for those as well.
Well, hopefully we will fix that in V2! :)
Stats would be similar
20.........Pinnacle
18-19............Superb
15-17 ............Great
12-14 ............Good
10-11 ...............Fair
7-9 .........Mediocre
4-6...............Poor
2-3 .........Terrible
1........beyond bad
Or something like that. I guess what I am saying is the we can provide skills and stats if it is applicable, for all the systems and have it on minimal space.
Right?
Bill
I'd be ok with putting conversions to different well-known systems (Fudge or D20 both qualify) but only as a tacked-on appendix. The actual entry in each section should only have a generic quality like "good", "Medium", "poor", etc...
Because if you put the actual statblocs in the main section, human nature is suck that people will assume that ONLY those statblocs will apply. This is one case where it'd be better to keep things generic.
RPGpundit
Quote from: RPGPunditI'd be ok with putting conversions to different well-known systems (Fudge or D20 both qualify) but only as a tacked-on appendix. The actual entry in each section should only have a generic quality like "good", "Medium", "poor", etc...
Because if you put the actual statblocs in the main section, human nature is suck that people will assume that ONLY those statblocs will apply. This is one case where it'd be better to keep things generic.
RPGpundit
I believe that was the idea--just one appendix page that can be affixed to each product.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstI believe that was the idea--just one appendix page that can be affixed to each product.
O.k. Not sure how other folks work but I like to have an outline. Should we work up an outline for your first project and use that as a template?
Bill
An excellent idea. Let me sort of flesh out what NPCs will go into attempt #1, and then we can work an outline on how this will go?
I was thinking short pdf for the first one, just to see how it goes over, with a TOC, brief introduction on the purpose of the product ("Using This Book"), a bit more on the period/focus being adressed, the NPC sheets as we discussed before, and in the back, appendices to include the conversion sheet and additional maps/illustration (if need be). Also, a Further Reading blurb could be out there, but could also be included at the bottom of each NPC bio.
Thoughts/revisions? I need to get to researching/writing! Hopefully, I'll have some time this week/weekend (it'll help pass the time as I wait for the Colts/Pats reckoning).
Quote from: Zachary The FirstAlso, a Further Reading blurb could be out there, but could also be included at the bottom of each NPC bio.
I like this idea, particularly if some of the reading is online so I don't have to worry about finding a book online or in a bookstore. Even a link in the product to any wiki article would be useful to me. I also like the idea of a print product built up out of the smaller pdf's.
Don't mean to butt in, just enjoying hearing/reading the planning and figured I'd toss in my 2cp
Quote from: cnath.rmI like this idea, particularly if some of the reading is online so I don't have to worry about finding a book online or in a bookstore. Even a link in the product to any wiki article would be useful to me. I also like the idea of a print product built up out of the smaller pdf's.
Don't mean to butt in, just enjoying hearing/reading the planning and figured I'd toss in my 2cp
This is a lot of fun to plan! After I do the small pdf and we all make sure we've got this down, I'm already planning out the others to do.
Bill, do you think each era/period/concentration should have its own color for the cover? As in, keep the basic design, but say, have a Union Blue for the US Civil War books, red for the Roman Empire, crimson for the Napoleonic era, etc.? Obviously, I'm just throwing out these colors now, but that might be aesthetically pleasing and somewhat helpful if this turns into a full or even partial line.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstThis is a lot of fun to plan! After I do the small pdf and we all make sure we've got this down, I'm already planning out the others to do.
Bill, do you think each era/period/concentration should have its own color for the cover? As in, keep the basic design, but say, have a Union Blue for the US Civil War books, red for the Roman Empire, crimson for the Napoleonic era, etc.? Obviously, I'm just throwing out these colors now, but that might be aesthetically pleasing and somewhat helpful if this turns into a full or even partial line.
This was my original idea but I was not sure what color to use for the Civil War. I had originally thought gray (apparently I am not patriotic enough :) ) but will do a cover up with the new colors and some of the pictures you suggested.
I like the idea of a further reading blurb also, especially with the ability to hyperlink in the pdf version. We should keep in mind, though, that this may become a printed item and keep the URLs in full view;i.e. //www.civilwar.com in stead of hyperlinked text like "The Civil War Wiki".
Bill
Quote from: Zachary The FirstHopefully, I'll have some time this week/weekend (it'll help pass the time as I wait for the Colts/Pats reckoning).
Oooh! We're on opposite sides on this one, Zachary! I've been a Pats fan since they were created along with the AFL. The Colts must go down this weekend! :D
-clash
for the npcs it might be a good idea to list "years of use" or whatever. Just something to give the GM or player an idea of what timeframe the NPC is historically appropriate for. Not to say you can't use them outside those dates.
Quote from: flyingmiceOooh! We're on opposite sides on this one, Zachary! I've been a Pats fan since they were created along with the AFL. The Colts must go down this weekend! :D
-clash
Just do me a favor--if the Horsies lose, try not to rub it in too badly. This whole city will be in mourning. :p
-Zachary--Colts fan since '84
Quote from: Mcrowfor the npcs it might be a good idea to list "years of use" or whatever. Just something to give the GM or player an idea of what timeframe the NPC is historically appropriate for. Not to say you can't use them outside those dates.
That might be a good idea--under born, you could put (flourished [fl.] 1706-1745 or whatever). A possibility, though dates in the bio might also furnish that.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstThat might be a good idea--under born, you could put (flourished [fl.] 1706-1745 or whatever). A possibility, though dates in the bio might also furnish that.
yeah, that will work.
(http://www.hinterwelt.com/images/hist/HistCoverCivilWar1.gif)
(http://www.hinterwelt.com/images/hist/HistCoverCivilWar2.gif)
So, how do we get started? I think the first step would be outline in point-form a general guideline of what each book's format will be.
Ie.
1. General (very broad) historical overview. Here we detail what the time and place was like, in general.
2. Timeline: an overall timeline of the years the book covers.
3. Historical Personalities: here we detail each historical personality with the following template:
a. Name
b. Lifespan (ie. 17xx-17yy)
c. Significance: why this character was important, what he was known for.
d. Stats: Mental Ability, Physical Ability, Leadership, Charisma, Military Capabilities. Each rated on a scale of Terrible, Poor, Fair, Average, Good, Excellent, Legendary
e. Important character details: ie "spoke with a stutter"
f. an outline of where the character could be found, and what he was doing, at different years of his life.
4. an appendix with some general conversion guidelines to various popular systems.
Anyone have any different ideas?
RPGPundit
Let's reformat that to make it easier to read.
PDF of Outline (http://www.hinterwelt.com/Hist/historical%20cast%20outline.pdf)
Quote from: RPGPunditSo, how do we get started? I think the first step would be outline in point-form a general guideline of what each book's format will be.
Ie.
1. General (very broad) historical overview. Here we detail what the time and place was like, in general.
2. Timeline: an overall timeline of the years the book covers.
3. Historical Personalities: here we detail each historical personality with the following template:
a. Name
b. Lifespan (ie. 17xx-17yy)
c. Significance: why this character was important, what he was known for.
d. Stats: Mental Ability, Physical Ability, Leadership, Charisma, Military Capabilities. Each rated on a scale of Terrible, Poor, Fair, Average, Good, Excellent, Legendary
e. Important character details: ie "spoke with a stutter"
f. an outline of where the character could be found, and what he was doing, at different years of his life.
4. an appendix with some general conversion guidelines to various popular systems.
Anyone have any different ideas?
RPGPundit
I would rearrange and add the following:
1. General (very broad) historical overview. Here we detail what the time and place was like, in general.
a. Resource paragraph - Further reading
b. Timeline: an overall timeline of the years the book covers.
2. Historical Personalities: here we detail each historical personality with the following template:
a. Name
b. Life details
i. Lifespan (ie. 17xx-17yy)
ii. Important character details: ie "spoke with a stutter"
iii. an outline of where the character could be found, and what he was
doing, at different years of his life.
c. Significance: why this character was important, what he was known for.
d. Characteristics
i. Stats: Mental Ability, Physical Ability, Leadership, Charisma, Military
Capabilities. Use Mike's Fudge Scale.
ii. Skills and Abilities: Using Mike's Fudge Scale. This would be any
extraordinary abilities or skills like Oration, Deception, Military Planning.
3. an appendix with some general conversion guidelines to various popular systems.
a. Stats Conversion
i. D20
ii. Fudge
iii. Iridium
b. Skills and Abilities
i. D20
ii. Fudge
iii. Iridium
I would add maps as needed but not as part of the outline. So, we might have a second appendix or we might put it in the flow of the text.
Bill
Pretty straightforward. I'll set to working on it!
Quote from: HinterWeltLet's reformat that to make it easier to read.
PDF of Outline (http://www.hinterwelt.com/Hist/historical%20cast%20outline.pdf)
I would rearrange and add the following:
1. General (very broad) historical overview. Here we detail what the time and place was like, in general.
a. Resource paragraph - Further reading
b. Timeline: an overall timeline of the years the book covers.
3. Historical Personalities: here we detail each historical personality with the following template:
a. Name
b. Life details
i. Lifespan (ie. 17xx-17yy)
ii. Important character details: ie "spoke with a stutter"
iii. an outline of where the character could be found, and what he was
doing, at different years of his life.
c. Significance: why this character was important, what he was known for.
d. Characteristics
i. Stats: Mental Ability, Physical Ability, Leadership, Charisma, Military
Capabilities. Use Mike's Fudge Scale.
ii. Skills and Abilities: Using Mike's Fudge Scale. This would be any
extraordinary abilities or skills like Oration, Deception, Military Planning.
4. an appendix with some general conversion guidelines to various popular systems.
a. Stats Conversion
i. D20
ii. Fudge
iii. Iridium
b. Skills and Abilities
i. D20
ii. Fudge
iii. Iridium
I would add maps as needed but not as part of the outline. So, we might have a second appendix or we might put it in the flow of the text.
Bill
You don't have a point #2, though I suspect that was meant to be the "timeline" which you accidentally listed as "1b".
Finally, if you want to use the "fudge scale" for attributes (without actually using any other aspect of the system), that's fine. Even then I don't see the point, because I certainly won't obey whatever the context of those abilities are supposed to be in the Fudge system, I'll just pick the one that sounds right for the character in question based on the common english meanings of the words, and NOT the Fudge mechanics. But as soon as you start adding "skills" and other shit, then you're already writing a fucking FUDGE sourcebook, and I have no interest at all in doing so, and will bow out.
I mean frankly, some of you are pushing very hard to turn this into a FUDGE book without saying so openly, because it suits your (personal or ideological) purposes. I won't be party to that.
Maybe you all decide that you don't want my participation in this project, and that's fine. But if I'm in, the books have to be generic, not a "FUDGE sourcebook by any other name". Fuck that. I'm not writing fucking statblocs, much less for a system I don't even like.
NO "SKILLS AND ABILITIES". Its just shoehorning the whole thing.
RPGPundit
You know, if this is an issue, I think skill and abilities could just be extrapolated from the bio quite easily. But I'll go either way, as I tend to be pretty easy-going. :p
Quote from: Zachary The FirstYou know, if this is an issue, I think skill and abilities could just be extrapolated from the bio quite easily. But I'll go either way, as I tend to be pretty easy-going. :p
Pundit is correct. I think skills and abilities should be written in as part of the text. Different games have different skill lists, and trying to mix n' match is a losing proposition.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmicePundit is correct. I think skills and abilities should be written in as part of the text. Different games have different skill lists, and trying to mix n' match is a losing proposition.
-clash
Exactly. You want to say that Hadrian was a good horseman, you say it in the comments, you don't need to write up a fucking FUDGE statblock to do it.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditYou don't have a point #2, though I suspect that was meant to be the "timeline" which you accidentally listed as "1b".
No, but I fixed it. It should be right in the PDF outline.
Quote from: RPGPunditFinally, if you want to use the "fudge scale" for attributes (without actually using any other aspect of the system), that's fine. Even then I don't see the point, because I certainly won't obey whatever the context of those abilities are supposed to be in the Fudge system, I'll just pick the one that sounds right for the character in question based on the common english meanings of the words, and NOT the Fudge mechanics. But as soon as you start adding "skills" and other shit, then you're already writing a fucking FUDGE sourcebook, and I have no interest at all in doing so, and will bow out.
First off, I do not appreciate profanity. Let's try to do this with a modicum of professionalism.
Second, I did not say use fudge skills, just the ranks. Sorry if that was unclear. I like the rankings Mike mentions because it is a finer grade. Also, we need to agree on the scale because if we all run off writing to our own scale, the usefulness of the book will decrease. So, whatever your game of choice is, say d20, you (meaning all the writers in the project now and future) will have a common reference for the stats of a persona.
Quote from: RPGPunditI mean frankly, some of you are pushing very hard to turn this into a FUDGE book without saying so openly, because it suits your (personal or ideological) purposes. I won't be party to that.
What?!? I am looking to make a book that is useful to gamers. Having a reference in the back of the book to aid in the translation of these npcs to systems is a very useful idea. I envision no text related to a specific game system outside the appendix.
Do you understand you are not being constructive?
Quote from: RPGPunditMaybe you all decide that you don't want my participation in this project, and that's fine. But if I'm in, the books have to be generic, not a "FUDGE sourcebook by any other name". Fuck that. I'm not writing fucking statblocs, much less for a system I don't even like.
NO "SKILLS AND ABILITIES". Its just shoehorning the whole thing.
RPGPundit
Where did we get stat blocks? You suggested as part of your original outline.
To help out with the understanding of what I meant about skills and abilities since it does not seem to have come across.
I am not talking about formal skill lists. I am talking about extraordinary abilities and skills of people outlined int he book. An example:
"JFK had a strong presence and powerful charismatic manner of speech. His oration was superb."
Alternatively we could make a short list of skills with rankings like Oration: Superb. It does not have to map to a system list of skills as long as the system has a way to handle generic skills.
Am I off, Zach, as to what you envision this product being used for? I assumed a generic resource. Resource indicates you would want a quick, easy to use book with NPCs that can be plopped into situations and plots. It can be done without skills or abilities certainly. I just thought those would be useful.
Bill
Quote from: RPGPunditExactly. You want to say that Hadrian was a good horseman, you say it in the comments, you don't need to write up a fucking FUDGE statblock to do it.
RPGPundit
I guess you are missing the point here, noone is suggesting your write a "fucking fudge statblock".
In your own example "Hadrian was a
good horseman" is the sam damn thing as just listing skills: Horseman=good.
The bottomline (IMO, of course) is if you don't make it easy to generate stats and convert to a given system, I doubt this thing will sell.
the levels (good, great, ....ect) are just a point of reference so you can gauge the different levels of competence between characters.
Example:
If you say Hadrian was a good horseman and george was a skilled horseman. who is better or what does "good" or "skilled" mean when generating stats?
Now if you use the scale above you can say:
Hadrian was a good horseman and george was a great horseman.
This easily translate into for goerge a +4 modifier in d20 or a 80% in iridium or just "great" in fudge. Wow, 10 sec convertion in 3 systems.
Heck even if you choose not to convert it atleast you know that George is better than Hadrian @ riding a horse. And you know they are both above average.
If you make GMs do all the guess work, then you are doing nothing more than republishing history articles. No, thanks I can read a history book myself and guesstimate stats without this product. Crap, I can google or wiki for my roleplaying purposes if thats the case.
I absolutely would like this to be a generic sourcebook, as useful to as many different gamers as possible! To that end, I think an appendix page with the quick conversions from the attirbute ranks on each NPCs would be fine! I wouldn't mind skills and ability ranks, only I think it could get cluttered very quick, and I think it would be really hard on some characters, what with skill systems changing so very much between systems.
As an example, I think what you wrote about JFK would be an excellent example of how easy it would be to extrapolate skills/abilities from the bio, without taking away from the product.
Mind you, I am below novice status on this, so I'll go either way. For me, it won't make or break the product. I think it might clutter it a bit more, but that's just my personal preference.
EDIT: As a compromise, how about in the text, having GREAT or FAIR or whatever the ranking in in caps, so it is easily recognizable?
Example:
"McClellan was an EXCELLENT rider, and even developed a new saddle. On the other hand, his GOOD intellect did not easily translate into military success, as he tended to be well-organized, but plodding".
Takes away from the flow, I suppose.
A brief list of Notable Skills, ala Gurps Who's Who, might not be too bad, but I definitely don't wish to shoehorn. What to do, what to do...
And yeah, fellas, can we try to keep this quasi-professional? I think we'll be able to focus in and make this a reality a bit more that way.
My point, and I think Pundit's point, was if it's written up as a statblock, people will treat it as a Fudge statblock, in a Fudge supplement, not generic descriptors. Written in line, it looks much more generic. People tend to treat statblocks as written in stone, while in-line text is something to be interpreted.
-clash
Quote from: HinterWeltI am not talking about formal skill lists. I am talking about extraordinary abilities and skills of people outlined int he book. An example:
"JFK had a strong presence and powerful charismatic manner of speech. His oration was superb."
Yeah, see, I'm not going to do that. Its cheesy. It would make me sound like an idiot. I'm going to use my own adjectives and not FUDGE's, thank you very much. You guys work it out from there.
QuoteAlternatively we could make a short list of skills with rankings like Oration: Superb. It does not have to map to a system list of skills as long as the system has a way to handle generic skills.
NO! What the fuck is wrong with just writing it freestyle and letting each DM decide what system he wants to use, and what stats he wants to assign for said system of his choice based on what he feels makes sense? I mean, why the need to shoehorn?
QuoteAm I off, Zach, as to what you envision this product being used for? I assumed a generic resource. Resource indicates you would want a quick, easy to use book with NPCs that can be plopped into situations and plots. It can be done without skills or abilities certainly. I just thought those would be useful.
And I think these would not be, unless your goal is to turn a generic RPG resource into a book for a specific RPG system.
RPGpundit
Quote from: McrowIf you say Hadrian was a good horseman and george was a skilled horseman. who is better or what does "good" or "skilled" mean when generating stats?
And of course no matter how you work it, you will still have someone claiming that your take was Wayyyy off, and that George and Hadrian's horsemanship skills were much worse/better then your take or that JFK was nowhere near as good in his oration as Mark Anthony. :D At which time you get to point at said person and laugh at their fatbeardedness.
I think it would clutter. The point is, this isn't an RPG system sourcebook, it is meant to differ from a "history book" in the sense that its organized, put together, and written in a context that is designed with gamers and their interests in mind. That's what we need it to do.
RPGPundit
Quote from: flyingmiceMy point, and I think Pundit's point, was if it's written up as a statblock, people will treat it as a Fudge statblock, in a Fudge supplement, not generic descriptors. Written in line, it looks much more generic. People tend to treat statblocks as written in stone, while in-line text is something to be interpreted.
-clash
Clash,
I am not proposing a format for the skills and abilities. I am proposing a way to map to any system. You do not want fudge, fine. We drop it. Don't like the terms, fine, change them. Want to come up with your own ranks, fine. However, I think the key point is to agree on terms and the number of ranks.
That said, it's Zach's ball. If he doesn't want any stat reference then I say drop the whole thing. Forget about Stats. Forget about ranking those stats and write a generic history book. Small vignettes of historical figures. I would suggest plot hooks but that plays too close to stat blocks as well. Don't tell the GM how to run his game, just give him the raw data and let him figure it out. I wouldn't make a supplement like this but I am all about doing things like adventure seeds, character seeds, easy translation to other systems and setting meat.
Zach?
Bill
Quote from: cnath.rmAnd of course no matter how you work it, you will still have someone claiming that your take was Wayyyy off, and that George and Hadrian's horsemanship skills were much worse/better then your take or that JFK was nowhere near as good in his oration as Mark Anthony. :D At which time you get to point at said person and laugh at their fatbeardedness.
Oh, I can't wait. Just wait until I get reviews from my fellow Civil War buffs, ripping the product and explaining how I never should have given John Bell Hood a "Fair" in Intellect! :D :rolleyes:
Quote from: RPGPunditI think it would clutter. The point is, this isn't an RPG system sourcebook, it is meant to differ from a "history book" in the sense that its organized, put together, and written in a context that is designed with gamers and their interests in mind. That's what we need it to do.
RPGPundit
Emphasis mine. That is what trying to do. The problem is we differ in our definitions. Let me say, I at least, am open to other ideas. This is Zach's idea and his vision. I will take my lead from him. If he wants no system references, then we have none. If he only wants stats, then so be it. I am just proposing something that will allow us to tap into existing customer bases as well as make the book more useful overall.
See Mike's post. He states it much better than me.
Bill
Quote from: cnath.rmAnd of course no matter how you work it, you will still have someone claiming that your take was Wayyyy off, and that George and Hadrian's horsemanship skills were much worse/better then your take or that JFK was nowhere near as good in his oration as Mark Anthony. :D At which time you get to point at said person and laugh at their fatbeardedness.
This goes without saying. I actually avoid statting historical figures in my games entirely. I discuss them, weave them into plots but never stat them since you inevitably end up with what I call the "Thor Syndrome". This is where players feel a deep seated need to kill and take the stuff of anything with stats.
Reviews will be fun. :rolleyes:
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltClash,
I am not proposing a format for the skills and abilities. I am proposing a way to map to any system. You do not want fudge, fine. We drop it. Don't like the terms, fine, change them. Want to come up with your own ranks, fine. However, I think the key point is to agree on terms and the number of ranks.
Zach?
Bill
I agree, its not about system, but agreeing on a scale. In the end thats all it is, I used fudge because it was a good example. You can change the terms to anything you want as long as they are used across the board.
As a buyer of RPGs, I'm not sure why i'd want to buy something that (if I'm that worried about historical accuarcy)I can't just simply google or wiki for. Part of the idea of gaming supplements is to take some of the work out of the GMs hands, I don't see how just reciting history in PDF form would do that.
Quote from: HinterWeltClash,
I am not proposing a format for the skills and abilities. I am proposing a way to map to any system. You do not want fudge, fine. We drop it. Don't like the terms, fine, change them. Want to come up with your own ranks, fine. However, I think the key point is to agree on terms and the number of ranks.
Bill
Understood, Bill. Unlike Pundit, I don't care whether the Fudge descriptors are used or not - they're as good as any other - but whether the form is a statblock or written into the text - and really only for the skills and abilities, which vary greatly between systems. The attributes as statblock is fine with me. Your "JFK" thing, in other words.
My point was only that when gamers read a statblock, it becomes fixed in their minds, and less open to interpretation. This is a habit that's hard to break. By writing the skills and abilities in-line, it just seems more open to interpretation. Writing attributes/stats as a statblock on the other hand is fine. There's less of them, and they are more uniform in most games.
-clash
Quote from: McrowI agree, its not about system, but agreeing on a scale. In the end thats all it is, I used fudge because it was a good example. You can change the terms to anything you want as long as they are used across the board.
As a buyer of RPGs, I'm not sure why i'd want to buy something that (if I'm that worried about historical accuarcy)I can't just simply google or wiki for. Part of the idea of gaming supplements is to take some of the work out of the GMs hands, I don't see how just reciting history in PDF form would do that.
Well, in defense of that approach there are some products that are littel more than reprints of public domain works but they also have game references in them (usually d20).
Whether it looks cluttered or not is how we lay it out. I guess I am envisioning a set of reference tables which I could probably fit on one page. I am not talking about an all invasive structuring of the product. I am talking about what happens in technical writing all the time. Standardization of terms and measures. When writing a cook book you do not make up your own measurements unless it really does not matter. You do not say "1/2 of my cookie jar", you say "1/2 cup". Unfortunately, we do not have a universal measure in the game world (although d20 comes close).
And just as another point, it sounds like we will have several authors. Setting up some scale would be helpful in terms of standardizing the products across several authors. Again, system does not matter, it is about using the same terms and scale.
Bill
Quote from: flyingmiceMy point was only that when gamers read a statblock, it becomes fixed in their minds, and less open to interpretation. This is a habit that's hard to break. By writing the skills and abilities in-line, it just seems more open to interpretation. Writing attributes/stats as a statblock on the other hand is fine. There's less of them, and they are more uniform in most games.
-clash
yeah, it does not have to be a statblock, you could do like zach said any bold or caps the term just so it stands out or something. Really, you don't even have to do that as long as you are using a set and ordered list of descriptors. Doing that my screw up the text flow a bit, but its that or a statblock.
Quote from: flyingmiceUnderstood, Bill. Unlike Pundit, I don't care whether the Fudge descriptors are used or not - they're as good as any other - but whether the form is a statblock or written into the text - and really only for the skills and abilities, which vary greatly between systems. The attributes as statblock is fine with me. Your "JFK" thing, in other words.
My point was only that when gamers read a statblock, it becomes fixed in their minds, and less open to interpretation. This is a habit that's hard to break. By writing the skills and abilities in-line, it just seems more open to interpretation. Writing attributes/stats as a statblock on the other hand is fine. There's less of them, and they are more uniform in most games.
-clash
No argument there. We would want to use a table if we wanted to impress it as "game content"; i.e. fix it in the readers mind as a reference. I have no problem with in line descriptions of skills and it might even work better since you may have a figure who has nothing worth noting as an exceptional skill;i.e. he was in the right place at the right time. Inline, you can leave this area undefined and not have an "empty" table.
I will ask you Clash, am I being clear at all? I feel like I am coming across as trying to subvert this effort and want to make sure people know I am just trying to share what has worked for me. I don't want this to be a "HinterWelt Product". I just trying to say, we need a standard across several authors so our readers can view one product to the next without feeling they are reading unrelated material.
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltNo argument there. We would want to use a table if we wanted to impress it as "game content"; i.e. fix it in the readers mind as a reference. I have no problem with in line descriptions of skills and it might even work better since you may have a figure who has nothing worth noting as an exceptional skill;i.e. he was in the right place at the right time. Inline, you can leave this area undefined and not have an "empty" table.
I will ask you Clash, am I being clear at all? I feel like I am coming across as trying to subvert this effort and want to make sure people know I am just trying to share what has worked for me. I don't want this to be a "HinterWelt Product". I just trying to say, we need a standard across several authors so our readers can view one product to the next without feeling they are reading unrelated material.
Bill
You're being clear, and I agree with you. What you just wrote above answers all my problems agreeably. I do agree it needs a standard set of descriptors, whether Fudge or not. It was me that wasn't being clear, mostly I think because I read the Pundit's objections as being inline with my own, when they weren't. I think I was coming across as being disruptive, when I was just trying to help. If so, I apologize.
-clahs
Perhaps it would be benficial to design as sample statblock employing simply the main stats, then one including several key skills as well ("Horsemanship: FAIR, Duelling: EXCELLENT"), so we can sort of see how they look.
I'm torn here. On one hand, I want this to be a nice, thorough reference that folks get a lot out of. At the same time, I want it to retain its feel of an uncluttered, universal sourcebook. Bottom line, I think everyone involved with this wants to make a great product, and we just have to figure out the best way to do that. So, I guess we'll hash it out until we do. :)
And yes, reviews should be a blast. :p
Quote from: flyingmiceYou're being clear, and I agree with you. What you just wrote above answers all my problems agreeably. I do agree it needs a standard set of descriptors, whether Fudge or not. It was me that wasn't being clear, mostly I think because I read the Pundit's objections as being inline with my own, when they weren't. I think I was coming across as being disruptive, when I was just trying to help. If so, I apologize.
-clahs
Not at all Clash. I am just trying to get on the same page. Like I said, I do not want this to be "My" project since I view it as our (all inclusive) project.
Bringing up different points is not disruptive (and please continue to since I will also). Stating ultimatums is not. We need solutions and critical thinking. Just solutions or just critical thinking are not very helpful. ;)
Bill
Quote from: Zachary The FirstPerhaps it would be benficial to design as sample statblock employing simply the main stats, then one including several key skills as well ("Horsemanship: FAIR, Duelling: EXCELLENT"), so we can sort of see how they look.
I'm torn here. On one hand, I want this to be a nice, thorough reference that folks get a lot out of. At the same time, I want it to retain its feel of an uncluttered, universal sourcebook. Bottom line, I think everyone involved with this wants to make a great product, and we just have to figure out the best way to do that. So, I guess we'll hash it out until we do. :)
And yes, reviews should be a blast. :p
Well, the thing is, and correct me if I am wrong, do we even need that? I do not think we need to map to a given skill set. I will use Iridium (because I am most familiar with it) as an example.
Say you give some civil war soldier a skill in Boot Making. I do not have Boot Making in my list of skills (at least I do not think so, maybe Leather Crafting). It does not matter. In the appendix, there would be the reference:
100%.........Pinnacle
90%............Superb
80% ............Great
70% ............Good
60% ...............Fair
50% .........Mediocre
40%...............Poor
30% .........Terrible
20%........beyond bad
the text int he book would say:
"John Little, a soldier of the Confederacy, was considered a GREAT (or
great) boot maker before answering the call to war."
As the GM, I would be able to say, "Oh! GREAT boot maker means he has an 80% skill?" Now, boot making may not come into play or maybe the gorup would be in a town shortly after the war and find "The Little Boot Shop" where John Little has vital information from some other part of his Historical Cast entry.
Again, your call Zach. This is the way I see such a resource being used. It does not seem such an onus on an author.
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltWell, the thing is, and correct me if I am wrong, do we even need that? I do not think we need to map to a given skill set. I will use Iridium (because I am most familiar with it) as an example.
Say you give some civil war soldier a skill in Boot Making. I do not have Boot Making in my list of skills (at least I do not think so, maybe Leather Crafting). It does not matter. In the appendix, there would be the reference:
100%.........Pinnacle
90%............Superb
80% ............Great
70% ............Good
60% ...............Fair
50% .........Mediocre
40%...............Poor
30% .........Terrible
20%........beyond bad
the text int he book would say:
"John Little, a soldier of the Confederacy, was considered a GREAT (or great) boot maker before answering the call to war."
As the GM, I would be able to say, "Oh! GREAT boot maker means he has an 80% skill?" Now, boot making may not come into play or maybe the gorup would be in a town shortly after the war and find "The Little Boot Shop" where John Little has vital information from some other part of his Historical Cast entry.
Again, your call Zach. This is the way I see such a resource being used. It does not seem such an onus on an author.
Bill
I personally would be OK writing like that. If folks don't think it detracts from the flow of the writing too poorly, that would be ok.
I hate to be so bloody wishy-washy, but I guess I can see the merits to both formats. I feel it would be less cluttered in such a fashion, and if we're already described him in the bio, we're already going to list some of the skills and abilities that set him apart, right?
Quote from: Zachary The FirstI personally would be OK writing like that. If folks don't think it detracts from the flow of the writing too poorly, that would be ok.
I hate to be so bloody wishy-washy, but I guess I can see the merits to both formats. I feel it would be less cluttered in such a fashion, and if we're already described him in the bio, we're already going to list some of the skills and abilities that set him apart, right?
But see, the cool thing about this format would be that you do not NEED to add something, just describe. If you come to a point where you find yourself describing something you believe need to be qualified, then just use our qualifiers.
Yes, it might effect the flow of your prose but I think the benefit outweighs it. With a table, or statblock, you end up with a blank space if you do not have any skills. It will be "blank" becuse it does appear in other bios. So, with this method, you just qualify your skills and the reader is queued to look at the appendix. Using tags, you make it adaptable to different scales and systems.
It seems like an elegant solution to me but, believe me, I am open to being convinced otherwise.
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltBut see, the cool thing about this format would be that you do not NEED to add something, just describe. If you come to a point where you find yourself describing something you believe need to be qualified, then just use our qualifiers.
Yes, it might effect the flow of your prose but I think the benefit outweighs it. With a table, or statblock, you end up with a blank space if you do not have any skills. It will be "blank" becuse it does appear in other bios. So, with this method, you just qualify your skills and the reader is queued to look at the appendix. Using tags, you make it adaptable to different scales and systems.
It seems like an elegant solution to me but, believe me, I am open to being convinced otherwise.
Bill
OK, this makes sense to me. Generic descriptors not forced, but used in text where appropriate. I think that's a pretty sensible move, but like Bill, I'm not shutting the door on this.
How about our other participants? Pundit? Do you feel like that would hamstring you?
Quote from: McrowI agree, its not about system, but agreeing on a scale. In the end thats all it is, I used fudge because it was a good example. You can change the terms to anything you want as long as they are used across the board.
As a buyer of RPGs, I'm not sure why i'd want to buy something that (if I'm that worried about historical accuarcy)I can't just simply google or wiki for. Part of the idea of gaming supplements is to take some of the work out of the GMs hands, I don't see how just reciting history in PDF form would do that.
For starters, because if you're a non-historian you might not even know some of these people exist to wiki them. You might know who Augustus Caesar was, you might even have heard of a dude called Livy so you could wiki him; but did you ever hear of Polio? Marcellus? Sextus Pompey? Maecenas?
Second, they will be in a format that helps you use them in RPGs, unlike wikipedia. They will say: "in year xx you would find Gaius Anonymous doing y in z place, and he could connect to your PCs like so...". I think a lot of gamers might find that useful.
Shit, if you got ME to do a sourcebook for any of the Roman imperial dynasties, in this format, by the end you'd have more than half of anything you'd really need to run a roman campaign. And the other half is what you could easily get from a wiki or a history book.
RPGPundit
Quote from: flyingmiceUnderstood, Bill. Unlike Pundit, I don't care whether the Fudge descriptors are used or not - they're as good as any other - but whether the form is a statblock or written into the text - and really only for the skills and abilities, which vary greatly between systems. The attributes as statblock is fine with me. Your "JFK" thing, in other words.
My point was only that when gamers read a statblock, it becomes fixed in their minds, and less open to interpretation. This is a habit that's hard to break. By writing the skills and abilities in-line, it just seems more open to interpretation. Writing attributes/stats as a statblock on the other hand is fine. There's less of them, and they are more uniform in most games.
-clash
And you'll note that the "attributes" I proposed were not really attributes that translated directly into typical RPG stats. They would be more useful in telling you how to roleplay said NPC than in what his actual mechanical stats were.
RPGPundit
I have set up a private forum on the HinterWelt site for posting the actual manuscripts.
http://www.hinterwelt.com/HWEForum/
Go over there and register then let me know and I will add you to the Historical Cast forum.
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltI have set up a private forum on the HinterWelt site for posting the actual manuscripts.
http://www.hinterwelt.com/HWEForum/ (http://www.hinterwelt.com/HWEForum/)
Go over there and register then let me know and I will add you to the Historical Cast forum.
Bill
Done!
Quote from: Zachary The FirstDone!
You're added!
Ok, just to check here, is Hinterwelt actually going to publish these? If so, of course, it makes sense that they would host the forum. If not...
So, Hinter, is this your way of confirming that you're going to be doing the publishing?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditOk, just to check here, is Hinterwelt actually going to publish these? If so, of course, it makes sense that they would host the forum. If not...
So, Hinter, is this your way of confirming that you're going to be doing the publishing?
RPGPundit
I do not mean to presume but I thought that was the understanding. I have not come up with a contract yet with Zach (or any other authors) but we can hammer that out either via emails or in the private forum.
That said, I have no problem continuing the public discussions here. I just could not upload the outline file nor did I think it was a good idea to put our manuscripts up on a public forum.
Again, I defer to Zach's thoughts on this. I have no problem publishing this. I bring to the table:
1) an account on RPGNow/OBS
2) an account on YGN
3) Print experience (HinterWelt is primarily a print company with 15 titles in print)
4) access to international distirbution
All that said, if Zach or others are against it I will hold no hard feelings and do as much or little as requested. Clash mentioned being taxed but you could get similar experience with Flying Mice.
Bill
Hey, i think its a fine idea, though flying mice would be just as fine an idea, but yes; I think clash is probably a bit overwhelmed, given that he's doing several projects, one of which is FtA! and we don't want that delayed more than it needs to be, after all. :p
Ok, so which project is going to go ahead first? The Civil War project?
RPGPundit
Yeah, Clash is awesome, but he's admitted that he's booked solid right now. I respect HW and Bill, and am happy to work with them.
As to what project's going first, with this template, we should be able to work on several projects. I'm starting with the Civil War, as its my concentration and where I'm most comfortable, but assuming our outline/template is/gets firmed, we should be able to proceed with more than one writer/compiler, right?
Civil War Navy. The brown water Navy on the Mississippi and tributaries, and the blue water navy patrolling and enfocing the blockade. Ironclads. Shell guns in wooden ships. Damn the torpedoes. The Huntley and other practical submarines. Sailing a monitor in heavy seas. Why does no one ever mention the Civil War Navies?
-clash
Quote from: Zachary The FirstYeah, Clash is awesome, but he's admitted that he's booked solid right now. I respect HW and Bill, and am happy to work with them.
Thanks, guys! If I couldn't handle it - and I can't just now - I can't think of anyone better than Bill.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceCivil War Navy. The brown water Navy on the Mississippi and tributaries, and the blue water navy patrolling and enfocing the blockade. Ironclads. Shell guns in wooden ships. Damn the torpedoes. The Huntley and other practical submarines. Sailing a monitor in heavy seas. Why does no one ever mention the Civil War Navies?
-clash
Oh, you
know it's on my list, baby. Porter. Semmes. Farragut. It's gonna happen.
I've actually started and stopped an RPG based on the Civil War several times--maybe this will give me the oomph I need to git er done.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstOh, you know it's on my list, baby. Porter. Semmes. Farragut. It's gonna happen.
I've actually started and stopped an RPG based on the Civil War several times--maybe this will give me the oomph I need to git er done.
Interested in writing an In Harm's Way game on it?
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceInterested in writing an In Harm's Way game on it?
-clash
er...how about "contribute"? :)
Quote from: flyingmiceInterested in writing an In Harm's Way game on it?
-clash
Hey! Hands off man! He has a bunch of writing ahead as is. ;)
Seriously, is it the kind of thing that you could reuse some of the Historical Cast or even include a copy in the Zip for the In Harms Way supplement. Kind of a supplement for the supplement. Sensitive subject but perhaps you could come up with a conversion table for the conversion Appendix?
Bill
Quote from: Zachary The Firster...how about "contribute"? :)
Don't worry, Zachary. I have plenty on my plate for now... :D
-clash
Quote from: HinterWeltHey! Hands off man! He has a bunch of writing ahead as is. ;)
Seriously, is it the kind of thing that you could reuse some of the Historical Cast or even include a copy in the Zip for the In Harms Way supplement. Kind of a supplement for the supplement. Sensitive subject but perhaps you could come up with a conversion table for the conversion Appendix?
Bill
Possibly, but
In Harm's Way is a historical military game line, not a game. If I did a US Civil War version, it would be a full game, not a supplement. It's not in the cards for the immediate future, though. There are three more IHW games in queue already. :D
I could certainly set up a conversion for the StarCluster System (used in In Harm's Way) for the appendix. It's be no problem. I would certainly be havily recommending the Historical Cast line for the IHW games. :P
-clash
Ok, so next up in the discussion: this is going to be for-profit I take it? (and I approve of that)
How will the profits (if indeed there ends up being any) be split?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditOk, so next up in the discussion: this is going to be for-profit I take it? (and I approve of that)
How will the profits (if indeed there ends up being any) be split?
RPGPundit
Well, I will share what I have heard for royalty payments. On the much more common side I have been told 20% is usual. Many small press go to 50%. I have not heard of anyone going higher.
For my part, let's list what is expected of HinterWelt and me.
1. Layout - Takin a manuscript and fitting it into book format including indexing, TOC, Credits, OGL and any other referencing.
2. Editing - Linda is tentatively on board and if not then I will find and employ a freelance editor. I know of several and have worked with a few.
3. Print brokering - Get the product printed, oversee QC and front any money needed for a print run (I do not expect to have to but you never know).
4. Enter it into distribution. Not much work here but it will require releasing product info 3 months ahead of time to the distro rags and various other promotions.
5. Cover creation - mostly done and I will be drawing heavily on other people because I suck at writing back of the book text.
From the author:
1. Research - we want an accurate manuscript with a gaming focus.
2. The Manuscript - we want the author to follow our style guide.
3. Reasonable first draft - meaning read your work. Make sure it is reasonably error free. It does not have to be perfect but it makes the process go smoother if you read through and make your own revisions/corrections before handing off to the editor.
Now, in a perfect world, I want to see Zach receive something for coming up with the idea and I expect him to earn it, somewhat, by directing the project. That means he reads every manuscript and approves them. Nothing too onerous but it is always good to get eyes on the manuscript.
So, what doe this mean. I think it would be fair to have 50% to HinterWelt, 10% to Zach and 40% to the Author of the Net of each sale, paid on a monthly basis. This is not written in stone and I am open to other's ideas on the matter.
A quick explanation of net. Net will differ depending on method of distribution. We will consider all expenses before divying up the profits. This should not be too bad as I will use my membership at Clipart.com and not charge the project. No one will draw a salary but we may need to pay freelancers. Art or Editing may come up. I will front the money if this is the case but the project will pay me back first. So, if we incur a $50 expense, the first $50 will go to paying that back.
Now, a note on the different distribution routes.
PDF at RPGNow: 65% of cover. If we charge $3 per book we make 1.95. Zach gets $.20, Author gets $.78 and .97 for HinterWelt.
PDF at YGN: 75% (perhaps less but let's take WCS) of cover. If we charge $3 per book we make 2.25. Zach gets $.23, Author gets $.90 and 1.12 for HinterWelt.
Print through Distro: 33% of cover. Selling a compilation of a period. So, a 60 page, soft cover, perfect bound, digest size book would most likely retail around $10-14. If we charge $10 per book we make 3.33. Zach gets $.33, Author gets $1.33 and 1.67 for HinterWelt.
The big difference is that an average title for us (HinterWelt) will sell around 50 PDFs. This can be larger. XRP sold 2000 of Medieval Western Society and I think this product could be comparable but I do not want to get anyone's hopes up. Through distro, HinterWelt can move about 300 of anything in around 90-120 days. Sales drop off after that but this could be an evergreen product. Again, not trying to get anyone's hopes up.
So, that is how I see it.
Thoughts? Questions?
Bill
Forgot about direct sales. I would sell it off of the HinterWelt site and there we would get just under 100% (I think it is $.30 +1.5% for Paypal). So call it 9.50 and we would split that up as above.
Bill
That sounds more than fair, Bill. I'm all in, and would be happy to sign an agreement to the effect. I had hoped in some capacity to lay eyes on the books--though I'll leave the editing to the pros, but I'd really like to earn my keep on this as well.
Personally, I think Pundit's Rome work will sell much better than my first Civil War bits (I'm excited to do the battles series), but there are enough eras I'm sure we can eventually have something for everyone.
I was mostly interested in the question of the "percentage of profits" (which is by definition net); and yes, I think 50/10/40 is fair enough.
Now, would someone like to e-mail or PM me a copy of that template or whatever it is that's on hinterwelt's forum? I know I'll have to sign up there eventually if I go through with this, but at the moment I'm just not in the mood to go through the whole sign-up process.
RPGPundit
My plate is completely full right now, but colour me interested.
Jong might be a good candidate to eventually work on a book on the Banda Oriental (the River Plate region during the big wars of independence and subsequent civil wars in the first half of the 19th century), if the first couple of books were successful.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditI was mostly interested in the question of the "percentage of profits" (which is by definition net); and yes, I think 50/10/40 is fair enough.
Now, would someone like to e-mail or PM me a copy of that template or whatever it is that's on hinterwelt's forum? I know I'll have to sign up there eventually if I go through with this, but at the moment I'm just not in the mood to go through the whole sign-up process.
RPGPundit
There is no template, just the outline we came up with. Download Here. (http://www.hinterwelt.com/hist/Historical%20Cast%20Outline.pdf) If you follow that (I posted a PDF of the outline there) and work in Word, a Text editor or RTF, I can take it from there and format. The only formatting you need to worry about is:
1. headings - the outline main headings like General Overview, Personality and some sub headings.
2. Any tables you want should be clearly marked as such or tables already depending on the software you are using.
I imagine a lot of this will be what Zach comes up with. If you follow the outline (not restrictively but in general form) we should be good.
Clear?
Bill
Ok, the next issue is the "conversion" appendix. We'd need someone to figure out conversion guidelines to do a conversion from the stats/attributes to whatever other systems we wanted to present.
I'd be pretty lost for that part.
RPGPundit
PS: mind you, the good news is that we'd probably only have to do it once. The same appendix could be put into every product.
Quote from: RPGPunditOk, the next issue is the "conversion" appendix. We'd need someone to figure out conversion guidelines to do a conversion from the stats/attributes to whatever other systems we wanted to present.
I'd be pretty lost for that part.
RPGPundit
PS: mind you, the good news is that we'd probably only have to do it once. The same appendix could be put into every product.
Precisely my thinking. I think we have, what?--d20, Iridium, FUDGE, and possibly SC2 as the systems we'll convert to, right? Higher up in this thread, we've already seen a few of them postulated. I guess we can fine-tune that as we get the m/s submissions done over at the HW forums. Do it once, and we're home free.
EDIT: BTW, Pundit, if this takes off, and I'm thinking down the road here, or at least does tolerably well, I was thinking it would be cool to offer Spanish versions. We have at least 2-3 of us on board who speak Spanish (though mine has been subverted into an Andalucian mess). I think given the personnel we have, we'd have a really cool opportunity to get this into some different markets.
But as I said, down the road, down the road.
Quote from: Zachary The FirstPrecisely my thinking. I think we have, what?--d20, Iridium, FUDGE, and possibly SC2 as the systems we'll convert to, right? Higher up in this thread, we've already seen a few of them postulated. I guess we can fine-tune that as we get the m/s submissions done over at the HW forums.
I bet we could use nearly the same conversion that we would use for Iridium system skills for SC2 system conversions. Not sure, but I can take a look see how close it would be.
Quote from: McrowI bet we could use nearly the same conversion that we would use for Iridium system skills for SC2 system conversions. Not sure, but I can take a look see how close it would be.
and unless it would tick off Kevin and company, the basic human level stats for the Palladium system aren't all that far from D20, and the skill system is % based.
Conversions for SC2 could be included if you want - I happily give my permission. Like Mike said, it shouldn't be too different than Iridium.
-clash
Quote from: Zachary The FirstEDIT: BTW, Pundit, if this takes off, and I'm thinking down the road here, or at least does tolerably well, I was thinking it would be cool to offer Spanish versions. We have at least 2-3 of us on board who speak Spanish (though mine has been subverted into an Andalucian mess). I think given the personnel we have, we'd have a really cool opportunity to get this into some different markets.
I would support this, hell yeah.
Quote from: cnath.rmand unless it would tick off Kevin and company, the basic human level stats for the Palladium system aren't all that far from D20, and the skill system is % based.
Yeah...nice thought, but won't happen. :) As head of Palladium's MAs, I already know the answer on that one.
Quote from: flyingmiceConversions for SC2 could be included if you want - I happily give my permission. Like Mike said, it shouldn't be too different than Iridium.
-clash
I think this line will work pretty well with the direction games and lines of yours like IHW seem to be headed, Clash...
Quote from: McrowI bet we could use nearly the same conversion that we would use for Iridium system skills for SC2 system conversions. Not sure, but I can take a look see how close it would be.
And see, to me, that is one of the beauties of this appendix. We do it once and reuse it. Said it up thread and say it again, should be a do it once reference and include it in all the versions.
Bill
Quote from: HinterWeltAnd see, to me, that is one of the beauties of this appendix. We do it once and reuse it. Said it up thread and say it again, should be a do it once reference and include it in all the versions.
Bill
Beautiful.
Quote from: McrowHow about using the FUDGE trait levels?
+4.........Pinnacle
+3…………Superb
+2 …………Great
+1 …………Good
+0 ……………Fair
–1 ………Mediocre
–2……………Poor
–3 ………Terrible
-4........beyond bad
Since FUDGE trait levels are easily converted into most any system. The +/- above convert directly to d20 and +4/-4 covers human range.
Ok, since I guess we're using these stats, I wanted to know something: how do we convert these stats into, say, percentile ranges? This would give me a much better idea of what said stats mean. I might even suggest putting the percentiles in next to the stats...
edited to add: it would also make it much easier to figure out how to convert these stats to other systems.
RPGPundit
Just to let you all know, I've started working on the Julio-Claudian book; I've completed the Timeline.
Personally; I would have liked to start with Augustus' granting of Imperial powers; but I realize that most gamers would never forgive me if I didn't include Julius Caesar. So instead, I've started the timeline at Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon, and the NPCs will thus begin from that point onward.
RPGPundit
edited: Julio-Claudian book, not Judeo-Claudian book. RPGPundit needs sleep.
Quote from: RPGPunditJust to let you all know, I've started working on the Judeo-Claudian book
Most people don't even know that Rome was originally led by Jews... :D
-clash
Doh.
Back to the drawing board, I guess. :p
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditOk, since I guess we're using these stats, I wanted to know something: how do we convert these stats into, say, percentile ranges? This would give me a much better idea of what said stats mean. I might even suggest putting the percentiles in next to the stats...
edited to add: it would also make it much easier to figure out how to convert these stats to other systems.
RPGPundit
D20/Fudge...................................Iridium System/Star Cluster
+4 (18-19)............Pinnacle ..................20(100%)
+3(16-17).............Superb...................18-19(90%)
+2 (14-15).............Great.....................15-17(80%)
+1 (12-13).............Good......................12-14(70%)
+0 (10-11).............Fair........................10-11(60%)
-1 (8-9).............Mediocre......................7-9(50%)
-2 (6-7).............Poor..................... .......4-6(40%)
-3 (4-5).............Terrible.........................2-3(30%)
-4 (2-3).............Beyond Bad ....................1(20%)
Quote from: McrowD20/Fudge...................................Iridium System/Star Cluster
+4 (18-19)............Pinnacle ..................20(100%)
+3(16-17).............Superb...................18-19(90%)
+2 (14-15).............Great.....................15-17(80%)
+1 (12-13).............Good......................12-14(70%)
+0 (10-11).............Fair........................10-11(60%)
-1 (8-9).............Mediocre......................7-9(50%)
-2 (6-7).............Poor..................... .......4-6(40%)
-3 (4-5).............Terrible.........................2-3(30%)
-4 (2-3).............Beyond Bad ....................1(20%)
Just an idea to make it easier on the reading and writing, what if we change the highest level to "Expert" or "Best"?
Also, the lowest to "Horrible" or "Worst"?
I think the others work but those two seem like it would be hard to put into a sentence or even on a stat block.
Bill
D20/Fudge................................./Star Cluster (Attributes Only)
+4 (18-19)............Best........................15+
+3(16-17).............Superb.................... 14
+2 (14-15).............Great......................13
+1 (12-13).............Good.......................11-12
+0 (10-11).............Fair.........................09-10
-1 (8-9).............Mediocre.....................5-8
-2 (6-7).............Poor...........................3-4
-3 (4-5).............Terrible.......................2
-4 (2-3).............Worst.... ....................1
I'd do attributes this way for SC2.
-clash
Quote from: HinterWeltJust an idea to make it easier on the reading and writing, what if we change the highest level to "Expert" or "Best"?
Thats fine with me, those are just ones I ploped on there while typing the origional post.
Quote from: flyingmiceD20/Fudge................................./Star Cluster (Attributes Only)
+4 (18-19)............Best........................15+
+3(16-17).............Superb.................... 14
+2 (14-15).............Great......................13
+1 (12-13).............Good.......................11-12
+0 (10-11).............Fair.........................09-10
-1 (8-9).............Mediocre.....................5-8
-2 (6-7).............Poor...........................3-4
-3 (4-5).............Terrible.......................2
-4 (2-3).............Worst.... ....................1
I'd do attributes this way for SC2.
-clash
Ok, do the %s I have above look fine for skills though?
Ok, sounds good, now I can actually start on the NPCs.
RPGPundit
Quote from: McrowOk, do the %s I have above look fine for skills though?
Yep! That was cool. :D
-clash
Quote from: McrowOk, do the %s I have above look fine for skills though?
You seem to have it right for Iridium.
Bill
Since this is now an official project of theRPGsite's game design forum, I'm stickying the thread so it doesn't get misplaced.
RPGPundit
Ok, sorry but I'm changing a few more of the stat descriptors. It makes no fucking sense that "Mediocre" be a -1, while a 0 is "fair".
I'm renaming these Average (for 0) and "below average" (for -1).
Just letting you all know.
RPGPundit
Ok, here's a sample NPC, you guys tell me what you think; whether its too little info, too much. Keep in mind that as its Pompey, the "significance" part is a bit longer to explain who he was (since most of his life story happens before the sourcebook's timeline period) and obviously his timeline is pretty short (since he dies in the second year of the timeline).
I also decided it makes way more sense to put the "significance" section BEFORE the "timeline" section, so readers know who the fuck he was before they know what he was doing. Oh, and I added one more stat, "political abilities", which was important for the Julio-Claudian setting but might not be needed in other books.
Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus; a.k.a. POMPEY THE GREAT
Lifespan: 106b.c. – 48 b.c.
Notable personality details: Extremely confident
Significance: Pompey was a deeply significant figure in the dying days of the Roman Republic. Even at a very young age, he had been a participant in the civil wars between Sulla and Marius, where he’d earned the nickname of The Teenaged Butcher. He was also always completely confident of his own abilities and not afraid of anyone; once having stood up to Sulla himself and demanding a triumph for his victories.
By the time of the beginning of this book’s Timeline, Pompey was, along with Julius Caeser, one of the two most powerful men in Rome. The two of them had been long-time allies (including by marriage, as Pompey had been married to Julius’ daughter), along with a third important Roman named Crassus. Pompey had the political influence in Rome, Julius had the military (although it must be noted that Pompey was also considered a military genius due to his leadership in campaigns during the civil war), and Crassus provided the money. Together, these men had led the Populares faction in Rome (the “movement of the people”), challenging the old Senate network and their Optimates faction.
By the start of this sourcebook’s timeline, however, Crassus has died in an ill-fated military expedition against Parthia, and Julius and Pompey are now enemies, having realized that Rome is not big enough for the two of them. The Senate has judged that Pompey is the less radical of the two bad choices, and have fallen behind Pompey as their only hope to stop Caesar’s ambitions.
Personal Timeline:
49 BC: In early 49 you will find him in Rome, leading the Senate, proclaiming loudly that he only has to stomp his foot in Italy and he will raise an army bigger than Caesars. His own supporters, however, do not seem so confident, and his act looks more like bluster than anything else. Caesar is in the north but he is coming back, and seems to be willing to ignore any order the senate sends.
In spring you will find Pompey in southern Italy after he has fled the city of Rome with his faction. Caesar has crossed the Rubicon river, the point beyond which it was a crime for any general to move his troops, and Pompey was unable to raise troops to stop Caesar in time. Pompey is in Brundisium trying to raise troops, but his failure to secure the money in the Imperial treasury means that in this too, Julius Caesar has the advantage.
48 BC: Pompey has fled to Dyraccheum (in Macedonia) and finally raised his Legions. At Dyraccheum Pompey (with 45000 troops) faced Caeser (with only 15000), and nearly defeated him decisively. However, at the last moment Pompey grew fearful that the situation was a trap, and ordered his men to pull back. In fact, it was not a trap at all; and Caesar famously declares “Pompey’s men would have won this battle if only their leader was a winner”.
In mid-year, Pompey has moved to Greece, where he faces Caesar’s troops again at Pharsalus. This is the decisive battle where Julius (with 32000 men), defeats Pompey (with 70 000). It is a costly battle to both sides, but in the end Pompey and his family are forced to flee, first to the island of Mitylene, and then to Egypt.
In the autumn of that year, Pompey might briefly be met in Egypt, where the advisors of the Pharaoh Ptolemy XIII decide to murder Pompey, fearing Caesar’s wrath if they should give shelter to his enemy. On his 58th birthday, they trick him into meeting two old military friends on a boat, who are actually his assassins. They kill him, and decapitate him. His body was left abandoned on the shore.
When Caeser is presented with the head of his old enemy, he is said to have cried. He deposed Ptolemy, murdered Pompey’s assasins and allowed the senate to deify Pompey, such was the admiration Caesar had for his onetime friend. When Caeser is murdered, four years later, his assassination takes place at the foot of the statue of the new God Pompey, and by some accounts Caesar’s last words might actually have been a prayer to his old friend.
Statistics:
Mental Ability: Good (70%)
Physical Ability: Average (60%) (note: in his youth this would have been better)
Leadership: Good (75%)
Charisma: Good (70%)
Military Abilities: Great (85%)
Political Abilities: Average (60%)
Special Abilities: none
RPGPundit
I know they happened before his conflict with JC, but no mention about his military achievements? (like wiping out piracy)
Quote from: JongWKI know they happened before his conflict with JC, but no mention about his military achievements? (like wiping out piracy)
Well, the problem is I had to choose a place to start, and 49bc is it. If I try to detail everything about everyone who's a player before then, it will mean that the book would become unbearably long. Supposing that the game is set up so that 49bc would be the absolute earliest for a campaign to begin, I have given all of the really relevant information I can about characters who's prime is before then.
Anyways, he didn't actually so much "wipe out" piracy, as he TOOK OVER the pirate business. His son, Sextus Pompey, took that part of the family business over after his father's death.
RPGPundit
Ok, I'd really appreciate some more advice about whether the entry I posted was ok or not, as far as layout, and whether it was too much information, just right, or not enough?
Also, if it was too cerebral or academic?
RPGPundit
Who are his allies?
Does he have any personality quirks?
What are his interests?
Nice work. It made for a good read, felt complete, and definitely thorough.
I left a few layout comments over at HW board, btw, Bill, if you read this first...
Update: Hope to have a near-finished initital draft after this weekend!
So you don't think its too lengthy? Or wordy?
I've decided to take up some readers' suggestions and give each entry either a "plot hook" or a "what if".
Considering the average 1-2 page length of an entry, and the number of historical figures I plan to have for the dynasty (a period covering 117 years), my book is going to be very big. I'd rather not have to divide it though, if at all possible.
So the question is, how much is too much? And is that size book plausible?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditSo you don't think its too lengthy? Or wordy?
I've decided to take up some readers' suggestions and give each entry either a "plot hook" or a "what if".
Considering the average 1-2 page length of an entry, and the number of historical figures I plan to have for the dynasty (a period covering 117 years), my book is going to be very big. I'd rather not have to divide it though, if at all possible.
So the question is, how much is too much? And is that size book plausible?
RPGPundit
That would be a question for Bill, but I think 1-2 pages per character is just fine. Throw in a couple of maps circa the time of Vercingetorix's capitulation, and we're solid. Since it's a starter product of sorts, perhaps you could narrow it down to 32-64 of the most influential/interesting characters? Or do you feel that would handicap too much? My first pdf, although intentionally very brief in design, will have far fewer folks than that, if my plans hold.
Pundit, are you going to focus just on Romans, or include a very few of the important peripherals of the time, such as the Ptolemies of Egypt?
Quote from: Zachary The FirstThat would be a question for Bill, but I think 1-2 pages per character is just fine. Throw in a couple of maps circa the time of Vercingetorix's capitulation, and we're solid. Since it's a starter product of sorts, perhaps you could narrow it down to 32-64 of the most influential/interesting characters? Or do you feel that would handicap too much? My first pdf, although intentionally very brief in design, will have far fewer folks than that, if my plans hold.
Pundit, are you going to focus just on Romans, or include a very few of the important peripherals of the time, such as the Ptolemies of Egypt?
A bit of each, anyone who was foreign but in some way significant to roman history at that time (or who had some huge eventual significance, like Jesus) would be included.
I've already done entries for Cleopatra and Ptolemy XIII. I didn't plan on doing one for Ptolemy XIV, but was considering doing one for Caesarion (though now that I consider the limits on numbers, Caesarion might be listable just as a footnote "what if" figure for Cleopatra's entry).
And as of my first (and only) count, I've got about 75 names. I could try to cut that down to 64, if Hinterwelt thinks that'd be best.
RPGPundit
Thought I'd update you all and mention that I'm about 30 pages (15000 words) into this thing now.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditThought I'd update you all and mention that I'm about 30 pages (15000 words) into this thing now.
RPGPundit
I got about 7 characters done this weekend. I've discovered I am an amazingly slow writer when my daughter keeps interrupting. :)
Just thought I'd mention, I posted another sample publically on my Blog; in this case its Cicero. Read it here:
http://www.xanga.com/RPGpundit/567898217/item.html (http://www.xanga.com/RPGpundit/567898217/item.html)
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditJust thought I'd mention, I posted another sample publically on my Blog; in this case its Cicero. Read it here:
http://www.xanga.com/RPGpundit/567898217/item.html (http://www.xanga.com/RPGpundit/567898217/item.html)
RPGPundit
I enjoyed it.
As far as Rome, Sat. night I finally got to watch an episode of this seasons show, going to have to figure out when they are doing a marathon so I can catch the early episodes of the season. I liked what I saw however.
Still at work on mine, as I find the time for it. Great work, btw, Pundit!
I'm up to 73 pages now; just finished the entry for Jesus.
RPGPundit
So I wanted to check, how is this project coming along? Is it coming along?
Over here, I'm on vacation now, so all work has stopped, but I'm about halfway done the book, and I will resume the effort (unless the whole project has been abandoned) as soon as I'm back in Montevideo.
RPGPundit
Nope! Things are still going here, just writing a little slower (and bigger) than first expected!
So is this project dead? Because this thread certainly seems to be.
RPGPundit
Zach is at Gencon, so I guess he might not answer as quickly as you hope. What about the Roman book?
Quote from: RPGPunditSo is this project dead? Because this thread certainly seems to be.
RPGPundit
Well, its definitely on hiatus for now, especially if I get a jENnies udgeship. That'd be a conflict of interest. I have material, but it isn't finished...
Rise, my undead! Rise and wreak horror and destruction! Cover the land in darkness and plague! Spread death! Spread chaos! Spread horror! Spread until there is none to stop you!
...Did anything come of this discussion...Ever?
(I figure this is ok, since it's a sticky on the first page)