Your Mt. Everest Is a Molehill

[Gunslinger]

All action and no drama, I got you Sett.  The reason I play RPGs with people is to create an experience I can't get from a computer RPG.

[Settembrini]

DavidR: You either deliberately or unknowingly misinterpreted ever thing I said. And didn´t get what I was shortcutting to. Without a common basis of understanding, it´s to difficult to discuss, I´m not interested in that.

To avoid further discussion of colour with the blind (or listening to a deaf person talk):

I explained why I´m not digging Thematic games. I never said they don´t work.
They don´t work for me.

The objective utterance I made was:

Recent Thematic Games don´t provide as much core story relevant building blocks as most Adventure games do.

DitV is a great example: the so called town creation is a joke compared to, let´s say Grand Survey/Grand Census.

In Adventure Games, there are multi-dimensional building blocks:

Background gives you factions, NPCs, ressources maps to build up and emote to conflicts. Story-Engines can be built, factions can re-arrange or dish it out.

Problem/NPC/Faction collections (101 patrons, MM etc. ad nauseam) have motivations, origins, mechanical challenges, ressources and weaknesses.

Meta-Rules and creation systems bring you a solid understanding of the Universe involved and adds believability to rulings made and things created.

Adventures serve as learning texts of how a possible arrangement of those multi-dimensional building blocks can look like.

All those exist without the players.

Whereas in Thematic Games, you have

1  funky Mechanism
1 "innovative" authoring rights distribution system
1 wimpy and narrow background setup

There is no richness in Thematic Products.
They aren´t good at what they are supposed to do.

I dislike them for personal preference reasons (Adventure! is better than navel gazing).

But they are bad products for the money involved!

Imagine a different world, where Adventure Games are the new thing.
What Forgers are doing, is akin to publishing just a new ranged combat system without even a weapons list, and nothing else, let alone charGen.

It´s your problem, not mine!

You dig Thematic Games?

Make better products for yourself.

Right now, they stink, big time. But people don´t notice, because:

1) they are happy that ANYTHING like that stuff exists at all
2) believe the hype ("town creation" :rolleyes:)
3) never knew rich game products to begin with
4) are fanboys

Work for the betterment of your products folks. Right now you are ripped off.

[Kyle Aaron]

To avoid further discussion of colour with the blind (or listening to a deaf person talk):

Or maybe "literally brain-damaged"?

Woohoo, Mirror Ron #2!

MacBeth: "Ye gods! Will the line stretch out to the crack of doom?"

[Settembrini]

I am the deaf person talking, you idiot!

I said: "We don´t talk the same gaming-language."

And I said: I might be the problem, not you.

Go fuck yourself, JimBob.

[David R]

DavidR: You either deliberately or unknowingly misinterpreted ever thing I said. And didn´t get what I was shortcutting to. Without a common basis of understanding, it´s to difficult to discuss, I´m not interested in that.

If this is true Sett, it's because you've invested a lot in being misunderstood.

To avoid further discussion of colour with the blind (or listening to a deaf person talk):

Carry on I rely on sixth sense when talking to you.

I explained why I´m not digging Thematic games. I never said they don´t work.
They don´t work for me.

Actually you contradict yourself further along this post but I'll get back to this.

The objective utterance I made was:

Recent Thematic Games don´t provide as much core story relevant building blocks as most Adventure games do.

DitV is a great example: the so called town creation is a joke compared to, let´s say Grand Survey/Grand Census.

In Adventure Games, there are multi-dimensional building blocks:

Background gives you factions, NPCs, ressources maps to build up and emote to conflicts. Story-Engines can be built, factions can re-arrange or dish it out.

Problem/NPC/Faction collections (101 patrons, MM etc. ad nauseam) have motivations, origins, mechanical challenges, ressources and weaknesses.

Meta-Rules and creation systems bring you a solid understanding of the Universe involved and adds believability to rulings made and things created.

Adventures serve as learning texts of how a possible arrangement of those multi-dimensional building blocks can look like.

All those exist without the players.

So in other words you have coined up a fairly useless term thematic - which by the way you have not really defined - because you find DiTV not really to your taste( also is this the only thematic game?). Let me ask you, do you consider Cold Space a thematic game? What about Star Wars? Shatterzone? Fading Suns?

Whereas in Thematic Games, you have

1  funky Mechanism
1 "innovative" authoring rights distribution system
1 wimpy and narrow background setup

Again personal preference not any real analysis. You do realize that there are games which are not forge designed which are like this?

There is no richness in Thematic Products.
They aren´t good at what they are supposed to do.

What exactly are they supposed to be good at?

I dislike them for personal preference reasons (Adventure! is better than navel gazing).

Good, but is there really a need to coin up a new term for what you dislike? And you can't navel gaze in Adventure games?

But they are bad products for the money involved!

This is a fact?

Imagine a different world, where Adventure Games are the new thing.
What Forgers are doing, is akin to publishing just a new ranged combat system without even a weapons list, and nothing else, let alone charGen.

Oh, so this is about the Forgers. Jeebus Sett, just come out and say it. "I don't like forge designed games." Why all this effort trying to push a new kind of Jargon on us ?

It´s your problem, not mine!

Not really. You're the one ranting and raving hoping your jargon for games you don't dig will catch on with us regular gamers.

You dig Thematic Games?

What's Thematic games?

Make better products for yourself.

Seems pretty good to me, so far.

Right now, they stink, big time. But people don´t notice, because:

1) they are happy that ANYTHING like that stuff exists at all
2) believe the hype ("town creation" :rolleyes:)
3) never knew rich game products to begin with
4) are fanboys

You do realize that not many folks would even recognize the Forge GAME you  mentioned right? You do realize that although you may not like them others do? You do realize that these games work fine for the folks who play them, right? So, now I know you're not very informed...when are you going to start talking about your theory of adventure/thematic games?

Also I thought you said they don't work for you...why are you making so many assumptions about the folks who do like these rpgs?

You know, I don't really like Paladium games, you don't see me, trying to coin up a term for their games.

Work for the betterment of your products folks. Right now you are ripped off.

You really are SWINE.

Regards,
David R

[Settembrini]

I give up.
We should talk over Skype or something, it´s of no use going on.

There´s personal preferences, and there is the factual shallowness of the products at hand. These are seperate problems.

Thematic Games have been defined over and over again by me.

Either you see, how shallow the products are, or you don´t.

Thematics work for some people, that´s not what this is about. It´s an undebateble fact. And I keep saying this, actually was one of the first and foremost advocates of the viability and demand of and for Thematic games.

But they also wold benefit from richer products. Look at Burning X for a start in richer products.

If you are really interested, we should talk over skype or somesuch.


I think droog for example totally knows what I´m talking about, To adress his point:
Even though Traveller style subsystems need further input too, there´s difference:

- Elaboration happens before the game session, therefore is more thought out.
-There are huge databases for filling up details on the fly, by picking building blocks (e.g. UPP+101 Religions+101 Governments+72 Patrons + 101  Encounter Tabels + Animal Encounter Tables etc. ad nauseam)
- These subsystems are richer in text, building blocks and numbers
than any Thematic game I´ve seen so far. The options in BE, and that is the best of the bunch in richness, are very shallow compared to what, let´s say, 2300AD offers.

You can´t ignore that fact, that those games don´t have much meat in them. They don´t have to have adventuresome meat & crunch.

But if it´s a game about people , their relations and complications: Put some actual stuff in those books!

Right now, everybody has to come up with that shit himself. And when you are so dependant quality player input at the moment of playing, it´s lazy designwork.

That´s just reality.

Take Spione as another example. There you need guy sheets, rel-maps, background info. And the supply is very meager.


I would have bought several Thematic Games at Essen, but there was nothing in the books. 20 bucks for nothing but a fancy die rule and some general ideas is not my idea of decent poduct.

or take "It was a mutual decision!"

I don´t need that book, once I´ve played it. It´s a waste of money. there´s nothing in that book.

As is Shab Al Hiri Roach or Polaris etc.

No product value.

[Settembrini]

Covenant is also a one-idea game.

I liked the actual play experience, but there was nothing in the book, so I didn´t buy it.

[David R]

Thematic Games have been defined over and over again by me.

No, not really.

Either you see, how shallow the products are, or you don´t.

This is the problem right here. Your whole definition of "thematic" from what I gather from the scraps you keep throwing out, is that these games don't suit your taste.

There is not enough meat in them or their focus is too narrow or they concentrate on elements you don't have any interest in or they don't give you value for money.

You don't really need a term for this. However, I think you believe that these games need to be differentiated from other mainstream rpgs for whatever reason. I suppose you think online discourse would benefit from division.

If so I think you need to come up with terms which reflects the reality around the gaming table with regards to how folks play games even those who play these kinds of games or maybe terms which apply only to Forge games and that can't be applied to a host of other games or maybe just maybe you should realize that diversity in our hobby is a good thing and we as gamers don't really need more jargon muddying up the discourse.

Challenging folks perception is a good thing. Discovering how folks game is a good thing. Adding more jargon/theory esp one based on preference and extremely subjective reasoning...not so good.

Sorry for the rant, but Sett you had it coming.

Regards,
David R

[Settembrini]

Please adress the issue of my post:

Value per product.

[Abyssal Maw]

David, your'e being deliberately obtuse.

The most basic definition of adventure vs. thematic from what I've read (and it's not my definition but I certainly understood it) is this:

Adventure games are about characters going places and doing stuff. i.e: Having "Adventures".

Thematic Games are about characters that are exploring themes. So they might do some adventurous stuff (MAYBE, and MAYBE NOT), but whatever they do has to be in support of the theme. Quite often that theme is hard-coded into the game as pretty much the only thing you do in the game.

It's actually not that offensive of a definition.

[Settembrini]

Add to that, that Thematic Game is a moniker that is used and defined by Thematic Game designers too.

It´s the fucking right thing to call them!

Vincent Baker´s site:

I know that the focus here is on thematic games, but

Look here:
http://www.lumpley.com/comment.php?entry=183#4826

[David R]

It's actually not that offensive of a definition.

Who said anything about it being offensive ? It's just not accurate. And yeah, I don't really care if Vincent Barker thinks it is. Kinda of like GNS and all that other shite.

Regards,
David R

[Settembrini]

"No further questions, you honour."

[David R]

You keep sayin' this.

Regards,
David R

[Settembrini]

I rather like you, cause I think you mean no bad. But here ya go, join Lev and the blakkster on my list.

My offer at talking over skype still is valid, just drop me a line.

My temper and patience are not made for your style of written debate.