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Author Topic: Yes, SJWs ARE Fascists  (Read 11350 times)

GeekyBugle

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Yes, SJWs ARE Fascists
« Reply #75 on: August 14, 2020, 12:22:32 PM »
Quoting shuddemel from a different thread because it's pertinent

Quote from: shuddemell;1144869
And then some people believe they were certainly supporting socialist policies, ala Hitler's 25 point plan...

The 25-point Program of the NSDAP
1.We demand the union of all Germans to form the Greater Germany on the basis of the people's right to self-determination enjoyed by the nations.
2.We demand equality of rights for the German people in its dealings with other nations; and abolition of the peace treaties of Versailles and St. Germain.
3.We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people and colonization for our superfluous population.
4.None but members of the nation may be citizens of the state. None but those of German blood, whatever their creed may be. No Jew, therefore, may be a member of the nation.
5.Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest and must be regarded as being subject to foreign laws.
6.The right of voting on the state's government and legislation is to be enjoyed by the citizen of the state alone. We demand therefore that all official appointments, of whatever kind, shall be granted to citizens of the state alone. We oppose the corrupting custom of parliament of filling posts merely with a view to party considerations, and without reference to character or capability.
7.We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to nourish the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) must be excluded from the Reich.
8.All immigration of non-Germans must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since 2 August 1914, be required immediately to leave the Reich.
9.All citizens of the state shall be equal as regards rights and obligations.
10.The first obligation of every citizen must be to productively work mentally or physically. The activity of individual may not clash with the interests of the whole, but must proceed within the framework of the whole for the benefit for the general good. We demand therefore:
11.Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
12.In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice of life and property that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment due to a war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. Therefore, we demand ruthless confiscation of all war profits.
13.We demand nationalization of all businesses which have been up to the present formed into companies (trusts).
14.We demand that the profits from wholesale trade shall be shared out.
15.We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
16.We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
17.We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
18.We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
19.We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
20.The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the state must be striven for by the school [Staatsbürgerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the state of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
21.The state is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
22.We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
23.We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race;b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the state to be published. They may not be printed in the German language;c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications or any influence on them and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
24.We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: "The good of the community before the good of the individual".[13] ("GEMEINNUTZ GEHT VOR EIGENNUTZ" [all caps in original])[14]
25.For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

shuddemell

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Yes, SJWs ARE Fascists
« Reply #76 on: August 14, 2020, 12:43:47 PM »
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144880
Quoting shuddemel from a different thread because it's pertinent

Yes, this came from a post where a poster claimed that people believe Nazi's were socialists simply because the name includes socialist. This is a rebuttal to that, as it is obvious both the parallels to socialism, Marxism and SJW's directly in their planned and implemented policies. #13 is particularly telling, as the seizure of the means of production by the state is the defining feature of socialism.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 01:26:18 PM by shuddemell »
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Pat
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Yes, SJWs ARE Fascists
« Reply #77 on: August 14, 2020, 01:39:17 PM »
Quote from: shuddemell;1144884
Yes, this came from a post where a poster claimed that people believe Nazi's were socialists simply because the name includes socialist. This is a rebuttal to that, as it is obvious both the parallels to socialism, Marxism and SJW's directly in their planned and implemented policies. #13 is particularly telling, as the seizure of the means of production by the state is the defining feature of socialism.
Which is actually a decent argument that Nazis aren't fascists at all, because fascism in the ur-Mussolini sense is based on syndicalism. Syndicalism is a form of radical trade unionism, which wants the unions to take action and assert power directly though things like strikes or sabotage. While it's traditionally decentralized and in fact has a strong tradition of resisting things like collective bargaining agreements because they're too bureaucratic, the version that fascism adopted in Italy involved a tripartite model, where the unions, the government, and the employers came together to decide economic policy. Though since fascism is authoritarian, that really meant that the central government had to approve all corporate decisions, from opening a new factory to firing people or setting wages. That's distinct from socialism, where the state simply nationalizes industry. But there's not a huge practical difference between direct ownership and nominal independence, when you're micromanaging decisions either way, so fascism remains a close kin to its parent, socialism. Though in practice, the Nazis didn't nationalize everything, so fascism is still appropriate.

shuddemell

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Yes, SJWs ARE Fascists
« Reply #78 on: August 14, 2020, 02:08:24 PM »
I would tend to agree, from looking at the roots of the Fascist movements. However the current definition of fascism is something along these lines "an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization." I am sure most leftists hang their hat on the "right-wing" portion of the definition, however that was something progressives tacked on to it when it looked like some of the systems of government that they had gushed over approvingly in earlier years turned into a murderous, corrupt evil regimes. They did this to distance themselves from the folly of their own opinions and pronouncements which proved (like they most always do) to be utopian nonsense which inevitably leads down the path of poverty, tyranny and mass murder. Though apparently it never did end their love affair with an equally onerous system of socialism.
Science is the belief in the ignorance of the expertsRichard Feynman

Our virtues and our failings are inseparable, like force and matter. When they separate, man is no more.Nikola Tesla

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For you see we are aimless hate filled animals scampering away into the night.Skwisgaar Skwigelf

Pat
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Yes, SJWs ARE Fascists
« Reply #79 on: August 14, 2020, 02:30:24 PM »
As I pointed out a few posts ago, "fascism" was just a description of how a few authoritarians took power. They were opportunistic and anti-intellectual, and had no consistent ideological underpinnings. For instance, Mussolini was a militant atheist, but then he started talking about how the archetypical fascist was religious, when he reached a deal with the bishops. He was also pro-tradition and wove the monarchy into a nationalist mythology, at least while the crown was too strong to defeat, but he always worked against the king, and when the fascists were strong enough to wrest away his power, they did. That lack of a coherent center is a defining trait. The classic Italian version of fascism, after all, was a mix of extremist ideas adopted from both the left and the right: It had roots in nationalism, syndicalism, and socialism. Thus the idea that fascism is a right and not left wing movement is pure revisionism, and the attempt to use the word "fascist" to describe a general type of movement, instead of using it more narrowly to describe movements directly derived from the original fascists, is patently absurd. Whenever someone tries, "fascism" becomes synonymous with "authoritarian, except for the random collection of authoritarians the current author has specifically excluded".

shuddemell

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Yes, SJWs ARE Fascists
« Reply #80 on: August 14, 2020, 02:39:32 PM »
Quote from: Pat;1144899
As I pointed out a few posts ago, "fascism" was just a description of how a few authoritarians took power. They were opportunistic and anti-intellectual, and had no consistent ideological underpinnings. For instance, Mussolini was a militant atheist, but then he started talking about how the archetypical fascist was religious, when he reached a deal with the bishops. He was also pro-tradition and wove the monarchy into a nationalist mythology, at least while the crown was too strong to defeat, but he always worked against the king, and when the fascists were strong enough to wrest away his power, they did. That lack of a coherent center is a defining trait. The classic Italian version of fascism, after all, was a mix of extremist ideas adopted from both the left and the right: It had roots in nationalism, syndicalism, and socialism. Thus the idea that fascism is a right and not left wing movement is pure revisionism, and the attempt to use the word "fascist" to describe a general type of movement, instead of using it more narrowly to describe movements directly derived from the original fascists, is patently absurd. Whenever someone tries, "fascism" becomes synonymous with "authoritarian, except for the random collection of authoritarians the current author has specifically excluded".

Agreed, and well put.
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Our virtues and our failings are inseparable, like force and matter. When they separate, man is no more.Nikola Tesla

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He who lives in harmony with himself lives in harmony with the universe.Marcus Aurelius

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Zirunel

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Yes, SJWs ARE Fascists
« Reply #81 on: August 14, 2020, 07:27:22 PM »
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144880
Quoting shuddemel from a different thread because it's pertinent

Political window-dressing. Little different from the "democracy" of the DDR or the DPRK. This "program" was pronounced in 1920, the same year that they decided to add the word"socialist" to the name of the party. At that time any populist party hoping for electoral success in Weimar Germany had to give the nod to socialism, and the Nazis certainly did. But how much it really meant is made clear by what happened in 1934 when they finally had enough political power not to worry about elections. The embarrassing socialist elements that were no longer needed were henceforth ignored. Those prominent Nazis who actually thought "socialism" was part of the program, and yes there were some,  were brutally purged (e.g. Gregor Strasser) or, if they were more easily ignored were sidelined (e.g. Gottfried Feder, and Otto Strasser, who escaped his brother's fate but nevertheless ended up fleeing Germany with a price on his head to preach "national socialism" elsewhere).  The rest got the message that socialism was not and had never been part of the real program.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2020, 01:12:27 PM by Zirunel »

shuddemell

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Yes, SJWs ARE Fascists
« Reply #82 on: August 15, 2020, 08:43:05 AM »
I would hardly say Nazi control of the means of production, which they did indeed do, is hardly political window dressing.
Science is the belief in the ignorance of the expertsRichard Feynman

Our virtues and our failings are inseparable, like force and matter. When they separate, man is no more.Nikola Tesla

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Zirunel

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Yes, SJWs ARE Fascists
« Reply #83 on: August 15, 2020, 12:52:57 PM »
Quote from: shuddemell;1144969
I would hardly say Nazi control of the means of production, which they did indeed do, is hardly political window dressing.

"Nazi control of the means of production" is not a point in the program, not in that form.

Perhaps you are referring to Point 13 : "We demand nationalization of all businesses which have been up to the present formed into companies (trusts)."

This might not have been window dressing if it had actually occurred, or even been attempted. But it was not. Civilian production, and even war production, remained almost entirely in the hands of the same old private companies. Nationalization as such never happened, although it is true that the Reichswerke Hermann Göring did build itself up into a huge conglomerate, mostly by absorbing a large percentage (but by no means all) of the industries in the captured foreign occupied territories.

Pat
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Yes, SJWs ARE Fascists
« Reply #84 on: August 15, 2020, 01:16:07 PM »
Quote from: Zirunel;1144988
"Nazi control of the means of production" is not a point in the program, not in that form.

Perhaps you are referring to Point 13 : "We demand nationalization of all businesses which have been up to the present formed into companies (trusts)."

This might not have been window dressing if it had actually occurred, or even been attempted. But it was not. Civilian production, and even war production, remained almost entirely in the hands of the same old private companies. Nationalization as such never happened, although it is true that the Reichswerke Hermann Göring did build itself up into a huge conglomerate, mostly by absorbing a large percentage (but by no means all) of the industries in the captured foreign occupied territories.

There isn't much difference between state ownership of the means of production, which is the definition of socialism, and the state exercising all the rights of ownership while lacking nominal ownership. Nazi socialism isn't socialism in the first sense (with a couple relatively minor exceptions), but the second sense definitely applies. The same is true for Italian fascism and syndicalism. They may not be socialism under the strictest of definitions, but they're certainly covered when the term is used a bit more broadly. If you want to call that something else, like collectivism, that's fine. But regardless of the definition used, they're close kin, and they're all descended from socialist theorizing.

Zirunel

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« Reply #85 on: August 15, 2020, 01:46:08 PM »
Quote from: Pat;1144990
There isn't much difference between state ownership of the means of production, which is the definition of socialism, and the state exercising all the rights of ownership while lacking nominal ownership. Nazi socialism isn't socialism in the first sense (with a couple relatively minor exceptions), but the second sense definitely applies. The same is true for Italian fascism and syndicalism. They may not be socialism under the strictest of definitions, but they're certainly covered when the term is used a bit more broadly. If you want to call that something else, like collectivism, that's fine. But regardless of the definition used, they're close kin, and they're all descended from socialist theorizing.

Except that the Nazi state, at least, did not "exercise all the rights of ownership," at least not in any unusual way. Production of civilian consumer goods remained untouched by state interference, even quite late in the war.

It is true that there was considerable state (Armaments Ministry) interference in war production, mostly in the latter part of the war.  Private companies competed for government contracts, but the successful bidder became something of a slave to the demands of their client (a State Ministry). That could include, if the contractor couldn't produce the quantities required, forcing them to license or sub production to other competitors. Yes, the war materiel industry could kind of resemble the state exercising (some) rights of ownership. But that in no way differed from the ways the western allies dealt with war production.

The kind of control you're describing is not a feature of a fascist economy, or a socialist economy, or a communist economy, or a capitalist economy it's a feature of all of them under a war economy, and was practiced by all combatants.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2020, 02:00:25 PM by Zirunel »

Pat
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« Reply #86 on: August 15, 2020, 02:00:49 PM »
Quote from: Zirunel;1145002
Except that the Nazi state, at least, did not "exercise all the rights of ownership while lacking nominal ownership," at least not in any unusual way. Production of civilian consumer goods remained untouched, even quite late in the war.

It is true that there was considerable state (Armaments Ministry) interference in war production, mostly in the latter part of the war.  Private companies competed for government contracts, but the successful bidder became something of a slave to the demands of their client (a State Ministry). That could include, if the contractor couldn't produce the quantities required, forcing them to license or sub production to other competitors. Yes, the war materiel industry could kind of resemble the state exercising (some) rights of ownership. But that in no way differed from the ways the western allies dealt with war production.

The kind of control you're describing is not a feature of a fascist economy, or a socialist economy, or a communist economy, or a capitalist economy it's a feature of all of them under a war economy, and was practiced by all combatants.
No, it's a feature of a socialist economy. Don't confuse capitalism with the abridgement of capitalism by politicians crying "emergency".

Nazi Germany imposed price and wage controls in 1936, three years before the war started. The government also decided what was produced, how it would be produced, how it was distributed, how much the employers were allowed to take home, and also established the (secret) police state needed to enforce all those rules and stamp out free economic exchanges (the black market). That's not capitalism, it's a form of socialism.

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« Reply #87 on: August 15, 2020, 09:49:59 PM »
Quote from: Pat;1145003
No, it's a feature of a socialist economy. Don't confuse capitalism with the abridgement of capitalism by politicians crying "emergency".

Nazi Germany imposed price and wage controls in 1936, three years before the war started. The government also decided what was produced, how it would be produced, how it was distributed, how much the employers were allowed to take home, and also established the (secret) police state needed to enforce all those rules and stamp out free economic exchanges (the black market). That's not capitalism, it's a form of socialism.

And if you didn't go along, you got shot.  Also a feature of socialism in its fully mature form.

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Yes, SJWs ARE Fascists
« Reply #88 on: August 16, 2020, 04:39:53 AM »
Well, Ackshully

Progressives/SJWs/Radical Liberals/Democrats/Antifa are not Fascists and neither are Republicans/Conservatives/Libertarians. This entire argument is absurd and based on so many false principles and assumptions I hardly even know where to start, but I'll try anyway.

First, why does the entire Left and all but the Hard Right call each other "Fascists"? Because of the moral paradigm established after WW2. In WW2 there were essentially three separate ideologies at war - Liberal Democracy, Soviet Communism, and Fascism/National Socialism. The latter lost the military conflict, and was made into a symbol of all that is evil by the two prevailing powers.

"History is written by the winners". In no case does this apply MORE than to the aftermath of WW2. Not only does this apply to the "history" itself, but extends to the very definition of "Fascism" that's found in all academic textbooks. Those definitions were not written by disinterested, objective scholars, but rather by people who were highly political, generally of a Marxist bent. Marxists have a lot of beliefs and use terminology not commonly used outside of Marxist circles, and this is reflected in the official, textbook definitions of Fascism they write.

Of the defeated Axis nations, Fascist Italy was far less important ideologically than National Socialist Germany, so why then the prominence of the term "Fascism"? This is because the Marxists in academia cannot bring themselves to refer to the Third Reich as National SOCIALIST. "Socialist" is their special word, one for which they have their own special meaning, and conceding that Adolf Hitler was a type of Socialist violates their ideology.

The textbook definition of Fascism neither accurately describes the stated ideology it pretends to, nor how those regimes actually functioned.

Mjollnir
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« Reply #89 on: August 16, 2020, 04:40:55 AM »
Not unlike the WW2 era, in America we have essentially three competing ideologies today - Progressivism/Left-Liberalism, Conservatism/Libertarianism/"Classical Liberalism", and Fascism/National Socialism/Third Positionism.

Progressivism/Left-Liberalism is collectivist, authoritarian, and completely opposed to traditional gender roles, Christian morality, Western civilization in general, and White people in particular.

Conservatism/Libertarianism is individualistic, libertarian, and generally passively supportive of  traditional gender roles, Christian morality, and Western civilization.

Fascism/National Socialism is collectivist, authoritarian, and fiercely supportive of traditional gender roles, Christian morality, Western civilization in general, and White people in particular.

SJWs/Antifa are NOT the real Fascists. They're violent, terrible lowlife scumbags, but just because you don't like them doesn't make them Fascists. They are rather a form of neo-Bolshevik. Cultural Marxists less interested in the working class than in cultivating the most exotic, special snowflake sexual identities and fetishizing downtrodden non-White ethnic groups.