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Author Topic: Wraethu and Vicious Sack Beatings  (Read 7722 times)

The Yann Waters

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Wraethu and Vicious Sack Beatings
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2006, 04:00:38 PM »
Quote from: fonkaygarry
The level of discourse about Wraethu genitalia on this thread is simply too cunty for words.
Hmm. Perhaps the thread might benefit from some comparisons with the Gethenian anatomy in The Left Hand of Darkness, then? Or the mystifs from Imajica which was already mentioned earlier? Posthuman or alien hermaphrodites like the Wraeththu are really nothing new in fantasy and science fiction.
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Levi Kornelsen

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« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2006, 04:49:51 PM »
Quote from: GrimGent
I almost wish that just for the sake of variety someone would read Imajica by Clive Barker and start going "hur hur, dove genitals"...


See, I like Imajica.

And then I tried to read the Wraeththu books.  It was as if I had moved from Anne Rice (terribly pretentious, but fairly stylish) directly down to the last few Laurel K. Hamilton Books (head-bangingly Mary-Sued and Smutty).

And then I looked over the details of the review again.  As a three -step process (Imajica -> Wraeththu -> Wraeththu RPG) it struck me as basically a straight-line descent from weirdly fascinating to utter crapulence.

The Yann Waters

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« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2006, 04:59:58 PM »
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen
See, I like Imajica.
Admittedly as far as literary talent is concerned, Barker (one of my favourite authors) is vastly more gifted than Constantine even at her best. Still, as I've said on several occasions, I didn't find her novels as horribly unreadable as they are sometimes claimed to be: often overblown and self-indulgent, yes, but far from the worst the genre has to offer.
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jhkim

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« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2006, 05:05:19 PM »
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen
And then I looked over the details of the review again.  As a three -step process (Imajica -> Wraeththu -> Wraeththu RPG) it struck me as basically a straight-line descent from weirdly fascinating to utter crapulence.


I haven't read the Wraeththu books or game, but I'll buy that.  

I'd love to see an Imajica or Left Hand of Darkness game, though.  I think GrimGent's point is that people seem to be all homing in on the concept of having hermaphrodites rather than on bad writing.

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Oy.
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2006, 05:10:26 PM »
I'm really glad Rush Limbaugh and Jerry Falwell haven't got wind of this, because otherwise there'd probably be a bill in every state legislature to ban RPGs and fantasy novels for corrupting the youth.

As for my personal response regarding the existence of an RPG of WoD-ripoff flower-penis tragic-figures compulsively copulating and being strongly recommended by the book to RP this:
:seppuku:
Why am I still a gamer after knowing this exists?
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The Yann Waters

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« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2006, 05:20:20 PM »
Quote from: jhkim
I'd love to see an Imajica or Left Hand of Darkness game, though.  I think GrimGent's point is that people seem to be all homing in on the concept of having hermaphrodites rather than on bad writing.
Yup, Imajica would certainly make for a great RPG setting... But I frankly don't understand the visceral reaction which so many people have against the mere concept of the Wraeththu, unless it's a backlash against the same kind of better-than-you perfection which elves in other novels and games tend to exhibit. Tastes in literature aside, I find it odd.

(And no matter how many times I've pointed out that they do not reproduce by raping men, the corrections somehow always get overlooked. That's... baffling.)
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fonkaygarry

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« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2006, 12:05:44 AM »
It's not that the idea of flower-cocked hermaphrodites repulses me.  I simply see the idea of and entire line of fiction devoted to a world full of flower-cocked hermaphrodites as painfully funny.

You ever spend any time in BL fandom?  Flower cocks might be something new, but that doesn't mean I have to take them any more seriously than:

(a) Gundam Wing characters getting each other pregnant and arguing about who wears what wedding dress.
(b) Hardened (yuk-yuk) yakuza falling madly in love with their wispy little brothers, then fighting to protect them from other boy-crazy gangstaz.
(c) An entire counterterrorism unit madly in love with its wispy little commandant.
(d) Dante from Devil May Cry being put in bondage by the anthropormorphic representations of his handguns.

That shit is just funny.  Really, really funny.
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The Yann Waters

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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2006, 06:07:57 AM »
Quote from: fonkaygarry
I simply see the idea of and entire line of fiction devoted to a world full of flower-cocked hermaphrodites as painfully funny.
Eh, it's an apocalyptic fantasy in which men and women are evolving into different species as the earlier age of humanity comes to an end: of course there are bound to be physical alterations. Exactly why the notion of a "petalled rod" should sound that hilarious (beyond the schoolboy sniggering at anything even vaguely dirty) is something that still puzzles me, though.
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Vellorian

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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2006, 09:27:27 AM »
Quote from: GrimGent
Eh, it's an apocalyptic fantasy in which men and women are evolving into different species as the earlier age of humanity comes to an end: of course there are bound to be physical alterations. Exactly why the notion of a "petalled rod" should sound that hilarious (beyond the schoolboy sniggering at anything even vaguely dirty) is something that still puzzles me, though.


I don't think the flower-penis laughter is about the flower-penises.  I think it's about someone over the age of 7 coming up with the concept.  I know that when I laugh about it, I'm not laughing at the concept (which is actually pretty mundane compared to the thoughts of most 7 year olds).  What I'm laughing about is that someone who has enough intellect to write a novel (let alone a triliogy) put forward the concept.

What's next?  Belly-button vaginas?  A race that survives by eating their own snot?  How about a race of magical ponies that have young girls who do nothing but brush their manes and tails?

The humor is not the concept, it's that an adult took it seriously enough to write a story about.  

The humor is that other adults are willing to defend the concept (I'm looking at the Grims, here) as anything short  of puerile, pre-adolescent sex fantasies gone horribly awry.

Again, to run this into the dirt completely, it's not the concept of a flower penis that spits acid that is so mind-jarringly funning.  It's that adults perpetuate (through the writing of, or the defending of) this callow, juvenile and immature sex-fantasy.
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The Yann Waters

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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2006, 10:03:57 AM »
Quote from: Vellorian
Again, to run this into the dirt completely, it's not the concept of a flower penis that spits acid that is so mind-jarringly funning.  It's that adults perpetuate (through the writing of, or the defending of) this callow, juvenile and immature sex-fantasy.
But precisely what about the fictional genitalia in question is "callow, juvenile and immature"? That anatomical detail is described as looking "petalled", and that's where its resemblance to actual flowers ends, despite the jokes which stretch the metaphor too far. And we are not just talking about a "penis that spits acid" here: the entire body chemistry of the Wraeththu is poisonous to humans, one side effect of which is that, yes, sex with men or women would be lethal (which is why it isn't done except by murderers and diabolists of the worst kind).

And "sex-fantasy"? Only in the sense that alternative sexuality forms the central motif in the books. There are more explicit scenes in Harlequin romances: if you expected the novels to consist of one chapter-long copulation after another, you'd be sorely disappointed. The characters need the energies released through intercourse to survive, true, but what bedroom antics there are mostly take place off-screen.
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Vellorian

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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2006, 10:26:45 AM »
Quote from: GrimGent
But precisely what about the fictional genitalia in question is "callow, juvenile and immature"? That anatomical detail is described as looking "petalled", and that's where its resemblance to actual flowers ends, despite the jokes which stretch the metaphor too far.


Firstly, all of what you say is derivative of juvenile naivete concerning sex.  The fact that an adult mind superscribed additional intricacies does not redeem the puerile concept from being what it is: a flower penis.  It's not a "metaphor," by the way, which would require that it represent something else.  I don't even think I could give it the literary nomenclature of "simile."  One might argue that the whole of the books are a metaphor, but the flower-penis?  That's just a juvenile sex-fantasy gone awry.

Quote
And we are not just talking about a "penis that spits acid" here: the entire body chemistry of the Wraeththu is poisonous to humans, one side effect of which is that, yes, sex with men or women would be lethal (which is why it isn't done except by murderers and diabolists of the worst kind).


In her own words:

Quote
The Wraeththu hated mankind. They were different; on the inside and on the outside. Hungry, baleful fire smouldered in their skins, you could see it looking out at you. They drank blood and burned the sanctity, the security of society, infecting others like a plague. Some even died, it is said, at their touch.


That does not bespeak a society that looks upon a rare few who are "murderers and diabolists."  It nearly states that such is the base condition for the entire group of people.  Humans become less to them than they are to vampires.  At least to vampires, humans are "cattle."

Once you have completed your defense of this group, perhaps you could next defend the unabashadly loving fan-fiction devoted to pedophiles, rapists and serial killers?

Quote
And "sex-fantasy"? Only in the sense that alternative sexuality forms the central motif in the books. There are more explicit scenes in Harlequin romances: if you expected the novels to consist of one chapter-long copulation after another, you'd be sorely disappointed. The characters need the energies released through intercourse to survive, true, but what bedroom antics there are mostly take place off-screen.


It's a fantasy...

It's about sex...  (alternative or not, splattered on the pages or not, graphically described or not)

Thus, it's a "sex-fantasy."  

Comparing it to other, more mainstream, sex-fantasies does not erase the fact that it is a sex-fantasy.  Puerile, immature, debased and surrounded by the affectations of rape, pedophilia and serial-killing does not exactly make for a "redemption" in my eyes.
Ian Vellore
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The Yann Waters

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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2006, 10:37:55 AM »
Quote from: Vellorian
In her own words...
Yes, those are the rumours which were spread about the new species in the beginning, and how they were perceived by humanity which blamed them for its own self-destruction through war and pollution. That doesn't change the fact that there's not a single instance in any of the books where "pedophiles, rapists and serial killers" would be glorified or treated as anything other than terrifying villains.
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jhkim

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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2006, 10:42:01 AM »
Quote from: Vellorian
Firstly, all of what you say is derivative of juvenile naivete concerning sex.  The fact that an adult mind superscribed additional intricacies does not redeem the puerile concept from being what it is: a flower penis.  It's not a "metaphor," by the way, which would require that it represent something else.  I don't even think I could give it the literary nomenclature of "simile."  One might argue that the whole of the books are a metaphor, but the flower-penis?  That's just a juvenile sex-fantasy gone awry.


I haven't read any of the Wraeththu stuff, so I don't have an opinion about it either way.  But I'm curious -- do you think any case of fictional beings with different genitalia than us be juvenile sex-fantasy?  Or would hermaphrodites who had a different set of equipment potentially be less juvenile?

JongWK

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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2006, 11:28:35 AM »
Quote from: fonkaygarry
The level of discourse about Wraethu genitalia on this thread is simply too cunty for words.  What's next, critical discussion of the Star Wars doujinshi where Obi-Wan is buggered and impregnated by Qui-Gon Jin  and then marries Darth Maul, who *knows* that Obi-Wan's carrying another man's child but is compelled by the purity of love to raise the bastard as his own?


Worse:



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Vellorian

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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2006, 11:38:55 AM »
Quote from: jhkim
I haven't read any of the Wraeththu stuff, so I don't have an opinion about it either way.  But I'm curious -- do you think any case of fictional beings with different genitalia than us be juvenile sex-fantasy?  Or would hermaphrodites who had a different set of equipment potentially be less juvenile?


No, I don't think "any" case of different genitalia would be a "juvenile sex-fantasy."  I know several people in real life who have "different" genitalia and I do not consider their real, tangible and significant differences to be amusing in the least.  (Not that we haven't shared jokes about it, as with anything else.)

The whole thing strikes me as the raving fantasies of a very disturbed little girl, resurrected into a book as a catharsis to resolve her seriously abused concepts of sexuality and relationships, crafted and molded into its present form.

I have written a number of stories and racial descriptions that depicted different forms of genitalia and sexual proclivities.  I have read quite a few different and alien forms of sex and sexuality.  Some if it has been juvenile sex-fantasies and the authors and readers have readily admitted to the fact.  Why this is different and the writer/defenders cannot come to terms with the facts is beyond me.
Ian Vellore
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