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Author Topic: "Why I am not an anti-feminist."  (Read 7592 times)

CarlD.

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"Why I am not an anti-feminist."
« on: December 13, 2018, 03:18:56 PM »
An older article (4 years), but I feel it sums up some of the feelings from those in middle of these endless culture wars. Some board members might find it interesting reading. Though as sub-forum rules dictate, I guess its only really important if one specific reader finds it interesting discussion fodder

Quote


Oh boy, someone pulled the controversy alarm.

Listen, I figure I may as well get this out here once and for all: I don't like feminism. In fact, I've got a lot of issues with it. I see it in action today, in the news, on the web, and it makes my blood boil. But I'm not an anti-feminist. "WHY?!" some of you may think, considering what I just said.

Good question! Allow me to elaborate.

Once upon a time, I was a feminist. I was taught, as I'm sure most if not all of you have been, that feminism was the movement for equality for everyone--but mainly women. I was taught that it was hard to be a girl, and that in the past it was hard to be a girl, and feminism was the liberator that would set us all free. Through education and kindness, the world would be a better place for all. That sounds awesome. And you know what? Those who taught me that honestly followed that example. They were kind, understanding. They wished to educate others that maybe, just maybe, what they are doing is making some people uncomfortable and to reflect on their actions (something we should all do from time to time, but I digress). They were good people who volunteered, made donations to worthy gender-neutral causes.

From these examples, of course I was a feminist. I wanted to help make the world a fair place with sunshine and rainbows and kittens. I wanted, and still want, to hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" with the world. I saw feminism as the way to do that. For a long time, I just assumed that if you wanted there to be equality, you'd be a feminist. It made sense, right? Feminist = equality = desire for equality = feminist. Except then I got older and my idea of feminism started to warp into something rather disturbing. I saw posters talking about how you shouldn't judge someone by how they dressed, yet to dress THIS way means you are objectifying yourself. But … wait, I thought, that makes no sense, doesn't that mean it DOES matter what you wear? All right, let's try something else: Women are paid 77 cents for the same job a man does! Oh my gosh, that's horri-- wait. The law says equal pay for equal work. There must be a lot of business owners in jail… No, that isn't the case. Wait, what is going on?

You can see the gradual dissection of what I was taught, had experienced, and what was reality. Things got steadily worse as I got more and more confused. You need to hold open doors for women, as it is polite, but you are sexist at the same time. Ladies, you can do whatever you want! But if you're a stay-at-home mom, you are belittling yourself. If you go into the workforce, you will be treated badly by all the nasty men. You should know how to defend yourself. But no one should teach you because that insinuates that if something bad happens to you, it is YOUR fault.

WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO THEN?!

I had far more questions than answers. Being in university at the time of this cognitive dissonance, I found the solution: education. School was the sacred treasure trove of knowledge, there must be something here that will explain these contradictions. So logically I took women's studies along with my horticulture, expansive psychology courses … genetics … I like learning, okay?

And I did learn. Oh boy, did I ever learn. Plants are amazing, the human mind is a brilliant and ever unique a machine, and feminism is a mess.

I will not downplay the role that the suffragist movement had in establishing women in Canada as persons. I won't ever downplay the fight to give us the right to vote (even though most men couldn't vote, as you had to either serve in the military and own land, but ANYWAYS).

Feminism is somewhat of an offshoot of that original fight, or at least that's the way I and others see it. But from then on, it has been a constant fight not against oppression but against itself. Those guys aren't REAL feminists, says one camp, while they themselves are being accused of being the pretenders by ANOTHER group who claims to be the real feminists. As Karen Straughan so eloquently stated, You gotta own your shit and no one was or is willing to clean up the mess.

I left feminism embarrassed, angry, and disgusted. Twice a week, for fifteen weeks, I was told that I had my rights fought for by feminists and that we were oppressed as women. That we were all racists, that men were horrible, and the government paid a substantial amount more in women's health care because they wanted to control our wombs to create more workers for the state.

The disbelief in my colleagues' eyes, open mouths, and eye-rolling showed that many of them felt the same way I did: what Kool-Aid did we drink for so long, and why do I feel so sick?

Some of them were all for it, of course. When I stood up saying that the government should care about issues that affect everyone, like cancer, one simply said, "Ovarian cancer." I clenched my fist, as my grandmother was a survivor, though another form of cancer took her from us many years later, rest in peace. I held my composure, despite a nerve being struck. I glared and slowly said, "Depression." "Postpartum," she quipped back. I got up and left.

I wrote my paper on how men suffer from sexism and got docked marks for being "too harsh." My facts? Solid. My formatting? Brilliant. But I was harsh.

Yeah. I was learning a lot, all right.

It got worse from there, what with the rise of Tumblr feminists, SJWs, and the expanding extreme political correctness. I was sick of it.

Some have said that I need to look up what "feminism" is in the dictionary when I presented my findings and what they were teaching IN UNIVERSITY of all places. My response was/is simple, and I urge you to try it. Look up "communism." No, I'll save you the brain power. Ahem … Communism: "Advocacy of a classless society in which private ownership has been abolished and the means of production and subsistence belong to the community" (Dictionary.com).

Doesn't that sound nice: everyone shares, no classes, all equal? Why don't you then look at it in practice in Soviet Russia?

What is described in theory does not transcribe to reality. And the reality of modern feminism is pointing fingers at anyone who disagrees with it and calling it names, an angry mob mentality with the sensitivity of a raw, exposed nerve dipped in salt water. Something I want nothing to do with.

And the crazy thing is, that despite all this, despite the recent events of bringing a man to tears over a SHIRT, despite biting the head of anyone who dares question their own attire (BECAUSE WE'RE WOMEN, IT'S DIFFERENT, OBVIOUSLY. IT'S EQUALITY IF WE APPLY IT TO ONE GROUP AND NOT THE OTHER, RIGHT? MATH IS HARD):

I'm not anti-feminist.

The reason? There are still people out there, good people, who truly wish for equality. They see the suicide rates of men and the mental illness and assault men experience and think, "My god, this is wrong, we need to do something about this." They see women forcing other women to endure female genital mutilation in other countries, have girls dragged off the street and horrifically abused because of what they wear and think, "This is abhorrent, we must act." They see both sides of the coin and embrace it, both sides, A = A, Men = Women. Different, but equal, with their own unique problems that need addressing. And they call themselves feminists, despite the modern-day party line being … well, hilarious, frankly. But you know what? If you are fighting the good fight, I don't care what you call yourself. If you are a decent human being, who truly wishes for equality, who is reasonable, who can have a discussion without pointing fingers or hurling baseless accusations just to win an argument (or ad hominems, for those who like the technical jargon), then you are an ally in my eyes. You, and all those who call themselves feminist, are the reason I am not anti-feminist. You are the reason I dislike feminism but not all who use its title. I may not share that name anymore, but we agree in fighting for the same cause: making this world a better place, for everyone, regardless of what shirt you decide to wear to the party.

#AllForEquality


Author credit

Quote

Kelsey J. F.
The resident moderate of the group, Kelsey acts as Badger Air Support, dropping in to write, reply to emails and help out how she can. A non-feminist and equalist, she lends her voice to all in need regardless of who they are. She is a business major in advanced accounting and administration and has studied for several years high level psychology. She is also a massive nerd and loves puppies. When not studying or badgering about, she enjoys writing, gaming, hanging with friends and cooking. She is best waifu. Science has proven this.


Source
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Trond

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"Why I am not an anti-feminist."
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2018, 10:50:36 PM »
I'm also not anti-feminist (I have a couple of good friends who call themselves feminists, and I think Christina Hoff Summers still does too), but I'm definitely not a feminist either. Feminists have stepped on my toes a bit too often for me to be comfortable with that term, and many things that a good portion of them are up in arms about are frankly ridiculous. I remember them marching against Playboy Magazine, because reasons.

Ratman_tf

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"Why I am not an anti-feminist."
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2018, 01:32:27 AM »
I am an anti-feminist in that I think current feminism is batshit crazy, and feminism in general is incorrect in it's diagnosis of the nature of male-female relationships. The rotten fruits are there to see. From Duluth to NOW opposing shared parenting, to the feminists out there who bitch about sexist air conditioning.
I'm sure there's some strain of feminism out there that has a good take on it all, but I don't care to sift through the other 9,999,999 types of feminisms to get at it.
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CarlD.

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"Why I am not an anti-feminist."
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2018, 02:16:03 AM »
Quote from: Trond;1068448
I'm also not anti-feminist (I have a couple of good friends who call themselves feminists, and I think Christina Hoff Summers still does too), but I'm definitely not a feminist either. Feminists have stepped on my toes a bit too often for me to be comfortable with that term, and many things that a good portion of them are up in arms about are frankly ridiculous. I remember them marching against Playboy Magazine, because reasons.

Agreed. The movement really seems to have gone off the rails in recent years growing more and more radicalized in some odd and, if not disturbing, off putting ways. Personally, as with some more Left oriented causes, the blatant hypocrisy (for example doing, saying and using the same language, fallacies and strawmen that they claim to deplore from the 'other side') and unwillingness to discuss or critically analysis the dogma, in fact taking such attempts as hostile or an attack really put me off. It struck too close to religious zealotry. So I can't in good conscious call myself a "feminist" or even an "ally" (which is much as I'm be allowed by some of the more fundamental members of the movement that's alleged about equality for all). The article authors experiences mirror many of my own.

I too have friends that consider themselves feminists and some of them feel something has gone off with movement. Some blame the internet/social media and the silos and self reinforcing echo chambers that its creates. I think that maybe a part of it but isn't the whole. OTOH, the men's rights groups even the movement as a whole is quickly twisting into the caricature is mocked as its incorporated by extremists and less savory elements, their louder voices drowning out the reasonable. It was fighting some pretty basic elements of human nature to begin with. I'm afraid that particular fight was lost from the start.

That's one of the reason I don't believe we'll have a gender equal society in a literal sense. Men and women are different. We have different minds bodies and needs both physical, psychological and emotional, shaped by millennia of development.  Of course, there are many shared aspects, we're all humans but treating men and women as interchangeable seems like a fool's errand, IMO, The 'best' we can strive for is a just society that considers the differences, the requirements and shared attributes in a balanced, nuanced manner with the best ends in mind.

Or I suppose some distance society were gender/sex is eliminated in some fashion which might be technologically achievable one day (but would it be desirable?) but its fantasy for the foreseeable future,
"I once heard an evolutionary biologist talk about how violent simians are; they are horrifically violent. He then went on to add that he was really hopeful about humanity because "we're monkeys who manage *not* to kill each other most of the time.""

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SHARK

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"Why I am not an anti-feminist."
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2018, 03:11:01 AM »
Greetings!

Geesus. What a refreshing shock it is to know that most people all around where I live are traditional, patriotic, sane folks, that even the women here believe that Feminism is fundamentally anti-family, and corrupt. Sometimes I feel like I live on an entirely different planet from the people in Los Angeles or San Francisco. Feminism, socialism, SJW's, Antifa, liberals--they're all considered dangerous, fringe nutjobs here at best.

Around here where I'm at, women believe in marriage, they love men, and they believe it is good to have large, happy families that love America, love traditions, and love Christianity. Oh, and they love *guns* here, too. I have never met so many women that love guns, shooting, and hunting. It's nice to know that there are at least a few pockets here and there where women haven't all gone fucking insane!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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CarlD.

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"Why I am not an anti-feminist."
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2018, 09:27:55 AM »
Quote from: SHARK;1068473
Greetings!

Geesus. What a refreshing shock it is to know that most people all around where I live are traditional, patriotic, sane folks, that even the women here believe that Feminism is fundamentally anti-family, and corrupt. Sometimes I feel like I live on an entirely different planet from the people in Los Angeles or San Francisco. Feminism, socialism, SJW's, Antifa, liberals--they're all considered dangerous, fringe nutjobs here at best.

Around here where I'm at, women believe in marriage, they love men, and they believe it is good to have large, happy families that love America, love traditions, and love Christianity. Oh, and they love *guns* here, too. I have never met so many women that love guns, shooting, and hunting. It's nice to know that there are at least a few pockets here and there where women haven't all gone fucking insane!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

(Emphasis mine)

Fascinating. Putting aside the notion that only people that express fairly deeply conservative beliefs count as "sane", that's an interesting post. What part of the country do you come from, a more rural area?

I suspect you must find some recent events and some shifting sociopolitical demographics objectionable, if you don't mind the questions.
"I once heard an evolutionary biologist talk about how violent simians are; they are horrifically violent. He then went on to add that he was really hopeful about humanity because "we're monkeys who manage *not* to kill each other most of the time.""

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S'mon

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"Why I am not an anti-feminist."
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2018, 09:41:00 AM »
I would call myself a non feminist rather than anti feminist. While I have huge respect for Karen Staughan and agree with her on a lot, I think she is sometimes too harsh on moderate feminists and too keen to justify genuinely vile societies such as that of the Gulf Arabs. I agree with her about 80% but 20% I find myself more sympathetic with eg Naomi Wolf.

S'mon

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"Why I am not an anti-feminist."
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2018, 09:50:04 AM »
I guess I'm more a liberal than a real conservative - I like liberalism I just recognise it is not a viable ideology without being balanced by a strong conservative element. The happiest places are liberal enclaves protected by the strong arms of a surrounding conservative culture. Liberals should never be allowed to gain control of societies, their emphasis on individual autonomy only works when they are the minority in a largely traditional culture. Conservatives in that sense are the sane ones even though it may mean less individual happiness for a while.

Ratman_tf

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"Why I am not an anti-feminist."
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2018, 11:42:46 AM »
Quote from: S'mon;1068500
I would call myself a non feminist rather than anti feminist. While I have huge respect for Karen Staughan and agree with her on a lot, I think she is sometimes too harsh on moderate feminists and too keen to justify genuinely vile societies such as that of the Gulf Arabs. I agree with her about 80% but 20% I find myself more sympathetic with eg Naomi Wolf.

Depends on what you mean by "justify". I've only heard Straughan talk about why Arabic societies have reasons for discrimination based on sex that aren't comic-book-villain patriarchy. Not that they are superior or desirable. The "is-ought" fallacy.
If you protect and provide for someone, you need to have some amount of authority over them.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 11:45:55 AM by Ratman_tf »
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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Ratman_tf

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"Why I am not an anti-feminist."
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2018, 11:44:43 AM »
Quote from: CarlD.;1068465
That's one of the reason I don't believe we'll have a gender equal society in a literal sense. Men and women are different. We have different minds bodies and needs both physical, psychological and emotional, shaped by millennia of development.  Of course, there are many shared aspects, we're all humans but treating men and women as interchangeable seems like a fool's errand, IMO, The 'best' we can strive for is a just society that considers the differences, the requirements and shared attributes in a balanced, nuanced manner with the best ends in mind.

Most of the MRAs I follow are of this opinion.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

S'mon

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"Why I am not an anti-feminist."
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2018, 12:00:05 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1068522
I've only heard Straughan talk about why Arabic societies have reasons for discrimination based on sex that aren't comic-book-villain patriarchy.

The tales I heard from my renegade Kuwaiti princess friend sounded pretty close to comic book villainy. Albeit the raped Bangladeshi servant boys and randomly murdered lower class girls were more victims than the upper class women.

Ratman_tf

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"Why I am not an anti-feminist."
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2018, 12:01:21 PM »
Quote from: S'mon;1068524
The tales I heard from my renegade Kuwaiti princess friend sounded pretty close to comic book villainy. Albeit the raped Bangladeshi servant boys and randomly murdered lower class girls were more victims than the upper class women.

Did Straughn defend those specific events?
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
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S'mon

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"Why I am not an anti-feminist."
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2018, 12:21:43 PM »
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1068525
Did Straughn defend those specific events?

No of course not. I just think she has a rather rosy view of some exceptionally evil societies just because they're patriarchal.

Of course the Feminists won't criticise those societies either. Criticism tends to be restricted to a few anti-Islamist types like Bat Y'eor (mostly Jewish) who get treated as extremists, banned from the UK et al.

Funnily enough my Kuwaiti princess friend really hates the Israelis ever since they invaded Lebanon while her daughter was visiting, and she never seemed fully aware just how horrifying the stories she was telling me actually were.

SHARK

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"Why I am not an anti-feminist."
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2018, 12:49:18 PM »
Quote from: CarlD.;1068493
(Emphasis mine)

Fascinating. Putting aside the notion that only people that express fairly deeply conservative beliefs count as "sane", that's an interesting post. What part of the country do you come from, a more rural area?

I suspect you must find some recent events and some shifting sociopolitical demographics objectionable, if you don't mind the questions.

Greetings!

Hello, CarlD! Yep, I currently live out here in the wilderness! I often joke with my friends that I live in this little farm town on the edge of nowhere, up here in Idaho. Lots of forest, and wilderness. Lots of little farms and ranches. Going for a walk about, just a stretch over from my house are several fields full of cows that "Moo" at me when I walk by. Some folks have some horses, and a few goats. It's nice having neighbors that actually want to get to know you. Folks are always helping neighbors out here where I live. Everyone around in these parts go to church. If you ain't Christian, they think you're weird. Folks here love America. Police are respected. Men are respected. I was chatting with a young girl at my gym. She told me that feminism is evil, and corrupt. Women and men are different from each other. The man is supposed to be the leader of the family. Being married and having lots of children is good, and right. She loved to go hunting and shooting with her family and friends. She enjoys going to the range with her guns whenever she can, between work and school. She's studying to finish her degree as a veterinarian. I was quite surprised to hear a woman that was under the age of 25 talk like this, and express such views.

Yeah, most folks I've talked to up here believe that liberals are pathetic and insane. Liberals, SJW's, Antifa, they are all mindless, godless communists that hate America, hate the family, hate our military, and hate God and our Christian faith. The government needs to put a stop to all these anarchists and rebels, attacking good citizens in the streets and at schools. These kinds of people should be given a good ass-whooping, and put in prison. All the godless, atheist professors in our schools are trying to brainwash and poison our children. The feminists have worked for years to destroy the family, and pollute the whole nation with their filth and their lies. Good women know better. Good folks that love America and love God know that all those people and their wicked ideas and philosophies need to be rejected, at every turn. Like one woman told me at my barber shop--

"That's why, sir, you need to find a good woman up here. The women in the big cities are all whores and trash. People here don't believe in abortion and feminism. We believe in strong families and loving God. And, 'round here, we love and honour our veterans. Our brave men standing guard is what keeps us safe and strong."

A woman approached me at my grocery store. I was wearing a hat that had the Marine Corps Emblem--our globe and anchor on it, and Marine Veteran, underneath the emblem. This young woman stopped me in the banana section, and told me, "God Bless you, Sir. Thank you for serving us. America needs our warriors!"

My checkout girl, a sweet young girl, rang my bill up, and proceeded to tell me; "I made sure to include your discount, sir. Thank you for serving our great country. You're new in the neighborhood? Yes, we love our veterans here!"

Geesus! I was stunned.:) As I said though, people around here think very differently from the constant liberal jello you encounter in the big cities all the time.

Everywhere I go, I always feel like I am honoured and respected, by children, by the young or old, men and women alike. I'd also add feeling *appreciated* being somewhat different from honoured and respected. It's very nice, and refreshing.:)

Questions? No, I don't mind at all, my friend. Ask away!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

SHARK

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"Why I am not an anti-feminist."
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2018, 12:55:34 PM »
Quote from: S'mon;1068528
No of course not. I just think she has a rather rosy view of some exceptionally evil societies just because they're patriarchal.

Of course the Feminists won't criticise those societies either. Criticism tends to be restricted to a few anti-Islamist types like Bat Y'eor (mostly Jewish) who get treated as extremists, banned from the UK et al.

Funnily enough my Kuwaiti princess friend really hates the Israelis ever since they invaded Lebanon while her daughter was visiting, and she never seemed fully aware just how horrifying the stories she was telling me actually were.

Greetings!

Yep, my friend. It's amazing how blind liberals and feminists are to how monstrous Islam is. I know these stories you speak of our true. I've had associates and friends that have immigrated to America from Iran, Lebanon, and Egypt that have all told me consistent stories over the years that reveal that Islam is an evil, wicked, and totally barbarous religion. The societies that Islam rules over are enslaved and forced to live in a dark, brutal world.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b