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Author Topic: When they say they want genocide believe them  (Read 3917 times)

DM_Curt

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Re: When they say they want genocide believe them
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2021, 03:04:38 PM »
The flyer is either a quote, or a summary. Does it matter much which it is?

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: When they say they want genocide believe them
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2021, 03:39:38 PM »
As for the flyer: I doubt thats legit marketting material by anything but the most fringe.

But is a segment of the BLM leadership racist fucks that wouldn't be against genocide? Yes. Again you would have to be utterly oblivious, a liar, or a moron to believe otherwise after their current actions.

Mistwell

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Re: When they say they want genocide believe them
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2021, 03:56:17 PM »
It's a hoax. Created by anti-BLM people to smear BLM. Nothing tracks it back to actual BLM
If you want a real BLM smear, their co-founder is a self-admitted marxist https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/ for whom all of this is just a lens to push for that. Their leadership is also fabulously wealthy  https://nypost.com/2021/04/10/inside-blm-co-founder-patrisse-khan-cullors-real-estate-buying-binge/all of the sudden.
She resigned recently and mysteriously, but the radical bullshit is still all baked in.

And communists are pretty good at genocide. So I don't see BLM pushing for genocide intentionally. Just by side effect.

If you believe they are a good cause, your either ignorant, or an idiot.

I believe they didn't make this flyer is what I believe. "Oh sure this one was totally wrong but look over here" is a non-sequitur.

Everyone trying to justify fake news because it sounds right is part of the fucking problem. This is what is done to the right by the left constantly. Don't do it back. If it's fake, call it fake. Don't spin it as acceptable because it matches your world view. You're justifying the tactic of using fake things to make a caricature of those who dissent from your view. The argument should be strong enough on it's own without resort to making up a fake flyer as if it's real.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2021, 04:06:25 PM by Mistwell »

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: When they say they want genocide believe them
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2021, 04:07:04 PM »
"Oh sure this one was totally wrong but look over here" is a non-sequitur.
'This one is probably not real but the group as a whole aligns to this viewpoint anyway' is not a non-sequiter.
If I made a poster for the Hutu displaying support for Tutsi genocide, that wouldn't suddenly make them non-genocidal.

I have run out of patience for people like you. If your unaware at this point, your crazy or delusional. And I put more stock in the latter. In that this ties into your identity and worldview.
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Everyone trying to justify fake news because it sounds right is part of the fucking problem.


Im not justifying it. Im not saying putting that poster out is a good thing or it serves the 'greater good' of information. Id say its a bad thing to do in terms of morals, and even as a dirty tactic its a bad one because grants BLM deniability.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2021, 04:09:07 PM by Shrieking Banshee »

jhkim

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Re: When they say they want genocide believe them
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2021, 06:21:46 PM »
The flyer is either a quote, or a summary. Does it matter much which it is?

Regardless of whether it's against left or right, if something is a fake or false flag attack, then I'll want to know and debunk it. I would hope that everyone should agree on this. So to your question, yes, I think it does matter.

Re: McCarthy

I agree that there were communist agents and informants working in the U.S. government, just as there were American agents and informants working in the Soviet government at the time. It was the Cold War, after all. But McCarthy didn't just make generic claims about communists in government. He made very specific claims like this:

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I have here in my hand a list of 205—a list of names that were made known to the Secretary of State as being members of the Communist Party and who nevertheless are still working and shaping policy in the State Department.

He never released his list, and never proved a single member of the Communist Party working in the State Department. I do not believe that this list even existed, or that Dean Acheson was informed of the names on it.
As usual, you are wrong, more wrong, and always wrong.

One, McCarthy was hesitant to name names because as he said himself, he could be wrong. Show me leftists who had that kind of forbearance.

McCarthy had no problems naming dozens of people as suspected communists who did *not* work in the State Department. Why would he specifically protect the reputation of the people who were the greatest security threat? As for protecting those on the list - he didn't need to release the list to the public in order to get confirmation of it. He could have shared it with discrete investigators, fellow members of Congress, or similar. Since according to him, those names had already been reported to Dean Acheson, the accusations were already out there. Even after seventy years we have no idea of who the names were on the list. No one in the State Department was revealed as a member of the Communist Party.

There are tons of actual documented atrocities committed by communists, and many agents revealed by prosecution and release of former Soviet secrets. With relatives who went through the Korean War, I've had plenty of direct evidence of the horrors of communism. Unsubstantiated claims like McCarthy's list weaken that picture - not strengthen it.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: When they say they want genocide believe them
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2021, 07:18:09 PM »
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I have here in my hand a list of 205—a list of names that were made known to the Secretary of State as being members of the Communist Party and who nevertheless are still working and shaping policy in the State Department.

While I have heard that qoute repeated allot, I can't actually find the source for it.

jhkim

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Re: When they say they want genocide believe them
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2021, 07:40:08 PM »
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I have here in my hand a list of 205—a list of names that were made known to the Secretary of State as being members of the Communist Party and who nevertheless are still working and shaping policy in the State Department.

While I have heard that qoute repeated allot, I can't actually find the source for it.

It was reported on the Wheeling Intelligencer newspaper based on his speech in Wheeling, Feb 10, 1950.



Text of the article: http://129.71.204.160/history///government/mccarthy.html

He later answered that on the floor of Congress when confronted about it, and said "I said I had in my hand 57 names of individuals who would appear to be members of or loyal to the Communist Party, but who, nevertheless, were helping to shape our foreign policy." However, when demanding a "yes" or "no" about whether he said what the newspaper reported, he refused to give a clear answer. i.e. He didn't claim they misquoted him.

The exchange in Congress is here:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Congressional_Record/iN3fBc25D_8C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22I+have+here+in+my+hand+a+list+of+205%22+%22Wheeling+Intelligencer%22&pg=PA6255&printsec=frontcover


EDITED TO ADD: The link to the article text.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2021, 07:45:34 PM by jhkim »

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: When they say they want genocide believe them
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2021, 08:08:33 PM »
It was reported on the Wheeling Intelligencer newspaper based on his speech in Wheeling, Feb 10, 1950.

Apreciate it.

Ratman_tf

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Re: When they say they want genocide believe them
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2021, 08:41:24 PM »
The flyer is either a quote, or a summary. Does it matter much which it is?

Regardless of whether it's against left or right, if something is a fake or false flag attack, then I'll want to know and debunk it. I would hope that everyone should agree on this. So to your question, yes, I think it does matter.

Agree. One should check their own sources even more vigirously than the other side's. I've made my share of boo-boo's but I try not to.
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DragonBane

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Re: When they say they want genocide believe them
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2021, 02:54:46 PM »
Since this has no place in the gamming forum I'm taking that discussion with jhkim and continuing it here.

BLM calls for genocide, should I give money to anyone supporting them? Even if I believe genocide is wrong? Even if they are calling for the genocide of people with MY skin color?


And the people they want to genocide will just freaking go along with it so they don't get called racist.

DocJones

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Re: When they say they want genocide believe them
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2021, 08:38:03 PM »
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I have here in my hand a list of 205—a list of names that were made known to the Secretary of State as being members of the Communist Party and who nevertheless are still working and shaping policy in the State Department.

He never released his list, and never proved a single member of the Communist Party working in the State Department. I do not believe that this list even existed, or that Dean Acheson was informed of the names on it.

There are tons of proven, well-sourced criticisms of communism, but McCarthy's attacks aren't that. It's much like the original post of this thread. There's tons of proven, well-sourced ways to criticize Black Lives Matter. Why turn to an un-attributed, un-sourced image of a flyer that is likely a false flag?

As for the "have you no decency" line - that was about McCarthy trying to attack former legal assistant Fred Fisher because of his prior work for the National Lawyer's Guild (NLG) while in law school. As a progressive organization, the NLG had been accused of being a communist front. Because Fisher had quit the NLG long ago and was no longer on the case, McCarthy's continued attacks on him were perceived as malicious attacks on a private citizen unrelated to the topic of the hearing.
As usual, you are wrong, more wrong, and always wrong.

One, McCarthy was hesitant to name names because as he said himself, he could be wrong. Show me leftists who had that kind of forbearance. 

Two, the NLG was flagged as a Commie/radleft group by the FBI, particularly as it was raising funds for the fucking Weather Underground. This slap at Fisher came after Welch had spent hours hectoring Roy Cohn, gaybaiting him, and mocking him for his concern over commies in the State Department.

Now get fucked, tankie. Go play with those millions of skulls that serve as a monument to communism.

A few points...
1) It was the democrat Secretary of State James Byrnes (not Dean Acheson) that claimed there were 205 identified security risks at the State department several years before McCarthy claimed he had the names of 57 communists at State. 

2) Welch had relieved Fisher from his team weeks before because he had found out he had ties to the NLG and which the New York Times had themselves called a communist front.  Only after the McCarthy hearings did the NYT start glorifying the NLG and Fisher.

3) I also believe the BLM flyer to be a hoax.  OTOH I don't doubt some of their members are in the same orbit of the flyer.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 08:52:33 PM by DocJones »

jhkim

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Re: When they say they want genocide believe them
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2021, 07:14:09 PM »
A few points...
1) It was the democrat Secretary of State James Byrnes (not Dean Acheson) that claimed there were 205 identified security risks at the State department several years before McCarthy claimed he had the names of 57 communists at State.

OK, from search, I can see that there was such a list - but being considered a potential security risk is very different from McCarthy's more specific claim of "member of the communist party". For example, security risk could mean being a homosexual like Joseph A. Panuch. Panuch was staunchly anti-communist and had even been praised by McCarthy - but had been flagged as a risk previously for his homosexuality. Other supposed security risks were figures like Gustavo Durán, who was a Spaniard who had fought against fascist Franco before fleeing the country. Franco basically declared everyone who fought him as communist.

There were genuine Soviet agents within the U.S. government, just as there were U.S. agents in the Soviet government. However, that doesn't vindicate McCarthy's specific statements. He still needs to be judged on his specific claims, not on just generically about communism.


2) Welch had relieved Fisher from his team weeks before because he had found out he had ties to the NLG and which the New York Times had themselves called a communist front.  Only after the McCarthy hearings did the NYT start glorifying the NLG and Fisher.

I haven't read anything of the New York Times coverage, but I don't see what that has to do with the issue. As you confirm above, Fisher was no longer involved in the case. So McCarthy attacking him had nothing to do with prosecuting the case on trial.


3) I also believe the BLM flyer to be a hoax.  OTOH I don't doubt some of their members are in the same orbit of the flyer.

Cool. That's my impression as well.

Wrath of God

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Re: When they say they want genocide believe them
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2021, 06:07:26 AM »
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This is also a lie purpetuated by commies. That Stalin killed all those people because he was just a dictator, not because he was a communist. While debatable, I believe the bloodiest and cruel things he did where in the name of communism.

Oh, I definitely disagree with it.
That's why Stalin gets some casual sympathy in pro-authoritarian right wing circles, because he is definitely seen as another of harsh Russian authocrats and his rule and his purges were made in vast majority to destroy any possible rivals in party and military (which later crippled military in WW2). I don't think in his dictator stage he cared about much else. And politics towards both economic and social issues was very fluid and without much regard for communist orthodoxy.

Just like modern China PR's aparatchiks are still venerating Mao as new Yellow Emperor, but they are in general way much more inheritors of old Chinese buerocracy.

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It's an interesting thing trying to figure out how many people were killed by communism. Then you come to the realization that it'd be a lot less if the USG had gone after the commies in our own government that McCarthy warned about.  Communists in the Dept of State slow-rolled aid to Chiang Kai -Shek, forcing a retreat to Taiwan and letting Mao take over.  No Mao = no Korean War and no Vietnam War...

In terms of stopping Asian revolutions yes. Then of course Asian revolutions even more than Russian reversed to very traditional Asian modes of government quite quickly.
The dynamics of Russian or Chinese societies are really powerful and well rooted. Whoever takes power - he'll most likely be assimilated (I mean Chinese assimilated Mongols and Manchu, no wonder they assimilated own commies :P )

Of course that makes them ultimately much more dangerous politically for USA than actual commies. Ironically.

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Other supposed security risks were figures like Gustavo Durán, who was a Spaniard who had fought against fascist Franco before fleeing the country. Franco basically declared everyone who fought him as communist.

While anti-Franco forces were more than communists - various forms of communists and socialists were definitely dominant players, overshadowing centrits, and even more majority among migrants (because they were harsher persecutions among them). Duran himself was socialist.

Now of course not every socialist was Soviet agent in fact Stalin-aligned communists in certain period waged internal persecution among Republican forces against anarchists and anti-Soviet less radical socialists (which as one could guess did not help Republican cause at all).

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horsesoldier

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Re: When they say they want genocide believe them
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2021, 01:28:21 PM »
I would suggest everyone read up on Alger Hiss and how the left defended him for decades. How Whittaker Chambers was attacked, discredited and ignored by the same people. How Alger Hiss was factually proven to be a Russian agent when he was with the state department, despite a lifetime of protestations otherwise.

The state department specifically was chock full of communists. It was very popular to be a communist amongst young intellectuals in the 1920's. That's where Alger Hiss got hooked. Look at all of the bizarre deals we made with the Russians. We forced Great Britain to pay in gold specie when the Russians were allowed to pay with credit. We stood by and pretty much agreed to every demand of the Russians at Yalta and other conferences. The Russians got the nuke well ahead of schedule because of ideological sympathizers.
 
America had Russian communist sympathizers who were giving it away for free. We had next to zero good human intelligence coming out of Russia. The UK had the same problem. West Germany and Italy had the same issues post war. The west was full of people who worked for the USSR and most did it for ideology reasons.

jhkim

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Re: When they say they want genocide believe them
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2021, 01:31:47 PM »
Other supposed security risks were figures like Gustavo Durán, who was a Spaniard who had fought against fascist Franco before fleeing the country. Franco basically declared everyone who fought him as communist.

While anti-Franco forces were more than communists - various forms of communists and socialists were definitely dominant players, overshadowing centrits, and even more majority among migrants (because they were harsher persecutions among them). Duran himself was socialist.

Now of course not every socialist was Soviet agent in fact Stalin-aligned communists in certain period waged internal persecution among Republican forces against anarchists and anti-Soviet less radical socialists (which as one could guess did not help Republican cause at all).

It sounds like we're in overall agreement. I agree that communists and socialists were the dominant players among the anti-Franco forces - but that means that anyone fighting against Franco was associated with socialists and/or communists. I don't think it reflect poorly on Durán, since Franco was a horrible fascist dictator - and fighting against him meant being in the right, in my opinion. I didn't see any sign that Durán was personally a socialist other than participating in anti-Franco organizations, though it is possible. Durán was evidently personally vouched for by Ernest Hemingway, though some have claimed that as evidence that Hemingway was a communist.