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Author Topic: What will divide us next?  (Read 4080 times)

jhkim

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Re: What will divide us next?
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2021, 09:56:17 PM »
I agree about some kids being too young to decide permanent consequence. From my view, young kids aren't ready to make decisions, so they shouldn't have irreversible surgery done on them until they are old enough. For example, my son is 21 now. If he wanted to get circumcised now, that's for sure his choice. I just wasn't going to force that on him as a baby. The same applies to intersex kids.

  Appreciated.   The same applies how?  You are OK with a 10 year old making a life long decision, or you think it is best for the kid to be an adult and be certain (like at age 18) before doing something that can not be undone?

I am not OK with a 10 year old making irreversible surgery decisions for themselves.

To be clear, with intersex kids, they have natural physical gender characteristics that are different from the norm. So it's a very different case than is typical for transgender kids, who are distinguished by their mental state. With intersex, the common traditional practice is that doctors and parents decide to do surgery on them as a baby -- usually changing their genitals to conform to what is considered normal for male or female, such as surgery to reduce a very large clitoris that could be considered a penis. The recent movement encouraged by intersex adults is to discourage this, and that babies should be left as they are unless there is a vital health reason.

The question for intersex kids is - how old do they have to be before surgery can be considered? I don't have an absolute answer to this. It depends on the extent of the surgery, the kid, and the family.

A ten-year-old can't make decisions by themselves, but they can understand the issues and should have input into what is being decided for them. As they get older and understand better, they should have greater input - though the final say still rests with the parents until they are 18. I know two intersex adults who both resent the surgery done on them as a baby. On the other hand, there might be some intersex pre-teens who want their body to become more typical before puberty.

Should parents allow an intersex kid to have corrective surgery before 18? For example, if an intersex 13-year-old wants a more typically-sized clitoris instead of something that looks like a micropenis, should they get it? I don't have an answer for that. It seems like a complex moral and medical question.

Eirikrautha

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Re: What will divide us next?
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2021, 04:06:27 PM »
I agree about some kids being too young to decide permanent consequence. From my view, young kids aren't ready to make decisions, so they shouldn't have irreversible surgery done on them until they are old enough. For example, my son is 21 now. If he wanted to get circumcised now, that's for sure his choice. I just wasn't going to force that on him as a baby. The same applies to intersex kids.

  Appreciated.   The same applies how?  You are OK with a 10 year old making a life long decision, or you think it is best for the kid to be an adult and be certain (like at age 18) before doing something that can not be undone?

I am not OK with a 10 year old making irreversible surgery decisions for themselves.

To be clear, with intersex kids, they have natural physical gender characteristics that are different from the norm. So it's a very different case than is typical for transgender kids, who are distinguished by their mental state. With intersex, the common traditional practice is that doctors and parents decide to do surgery on them as a baby -- usually changing their genitals to conform to what is considered normal for male or female, such as surgery to reduce a very large clitoris that could be considered a penis. The recent movement encouraged by intersex adults is to discourage this, and that babies should be left as they are unless there is a vital health reason.

The question for intersex kids is - how old do they have to be before surgery can be considered? I don't have an absolute answer to this. It depends on the extent of the surgery, the kid, and the family.

A ten-year-old can't make decisions by themselves, but they can understand the issues and should have input into what is being decided for them. As they get older and understand better, they should have greater input - though the final say still rests with the parents until they are 18. I know two intersex adults who both resent the surgery done on them as a baby. On the other hand, there might be some intersex pre-teens who want their body to become more typical before puberty.

Should parents allow an intersex kid to have corrective surgery before 18? For example, if an intersex 13-year-old wants a more typically-sized clitoris instead of something that looks like a micropenis, should they get it? I don't have an answer for that. It seems like a complex moral and medical question.

Which has nothing to do with the question of "transgendered" children at all.  The choices that must be made for the minuscule number of children with intersex birth defects are tragic and difficult.  They are also irrelevant to whether or not a 10 year old should be allowed to take puberty blockers because they "feel" like the opposite sex.

Spinachcat

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Re: What will divide us next?
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2021, 04:18:34 PM »
Right now, we've got the Vaxxed vs. the Purebloods. That division is going to get really fun in the coming months (and years).

As for the freak brigade pushing pedo-acceptance, that's obviously next up on their agenda with the "love is love" and "love knows no age" propaganda. The SF gay choir even sang "we're coming for your children" so you'd have to be brain dead to not see the writing on the wall.

It's not enough for toddlers to "choose" their gender. They need to "choose" to get fucked by Biden's best.

This degenerate clown car and leftist acceleration will either the fuel the murderous rage necessary to save Western civilization, or result in our total collapse as the masses submit to each descending step of our "new normal".

Hopefully, the red states will secede before all is lost, but I'm not holding my breath.

Horace

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Re: What will divide us next?
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2021, 08:53:24 PM »
Hopefully, the red states will secede before all is lost, but I'm not holding my breath.
The Communist states would never allow them to secede without a fight, and only a few (Texas) stand a chance of winning their independence. But even if they won that battle, the newly independent states would be under constant threat of annihilation a la Taiwan or South Korea, because Communists aren't content to live and let live; for some reason, the thought of people living in freedom galls them beyond all reason.

deathknight4044

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Re: What will divide us next?
« Reply #49 on: October 16, 2021, 07:33:57 AM »
I agree about some kids being too young to decide permanent consequence. From my view, young kids aren't ready to make decisions, so they shouldn't have irreversible surgery done on them until they are old enough. For example, my son is 21 now. If he wanted to get circumcised now, that's for sure his choice. I just wasn't going to force that on him as a baby. The same applies to intersex kids.

  Appreciated.   The same applies how?  You are OK with a 10 year old making a life long decision, or you think it is best for the kid to be an adult and be certain (like at age 18) before doing something that can not be undone?

I am not OK with a 10 year old making irreversible surgery decisions for themselves.

To be clear, with intersex kids, they have natural physical gender characteristics that are different from the norm. So it's a very different case than is typical for transgender kids, who are distinguished by their mental state. With intersex, the common traditional practice is that doctors and parents decide to do surgery on them as a baby -- usually changing their genitals to conform to what is considered normal for male or female, such as surgery to reduce a very large clitoris that could be considered a penis. The recent movement encouraged by intersex adults is to discourage this, and that babies should be left as they are unless there is a vital health reason.

The question for intersex kids is - how old do they have to be before surgery can be considered? I don't have an absolute answer to this. It depends on the extent of the surgery, the kid, and the family.

A ten-year-old can't make decisions by themselves, but they can understand the issues and should have input into what is being decided for them. As they get older and understand better, they should have greater input - though the final say still rests with the parents until they are 18. I know two intersex adults who both resent the surgery done on them as a baby. On the other hand, there might be some intersex pre-teens who want their body to become more typical before puberty.

Should parents allow an intersex kid to have corrective surgery before 18? For example, if an intersex 13-year-old wants a more typically-sized clitoris instead of something that looks like a micropenis, should they get it? I don't have an answer for that. It seems like a complex moral and medical question.

Intersex usually refers to people with birth defects like a micropenis, enlarged clitorus, or internal testes. These are rare medical anomalies and aren't all that relevant to the debate about giving children drugs and eventual surgery to modify their genitalia so that it more closely resembles the opposite sex.

jhkim

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Re: What will divide us next?
« Reply #50 on: October 20, 2021, 04:32:29 PM »
Which has nothing to do with the question of "transgendered" children at all.  The choices that must be made for the minuscule number of children with intersex birth defects are tragic and difficult.  They are also irrelevant to whether or not a 10 year old should be allowed to take puberty blockers because they "feel" like the opposite sex.
Intersex usually refers to people with birth defects like a micropenis, enlarged clitorus, or internal testes. These are rare medical anomalies and aren't all that relevant to the debate about giving children drugs and eventual surgery to modify their genitalia so that it more closely resembles the opposite sex.

Even though intersex children are rare, I think they involve the same ethical issues that oggsmash was talking about - such as (a) whether kids should have irreversible, not-physically-necessary genital surgery done to them before 18, and (b) to what extent kids should have input into the surgery done to them.

----

As for transgender children,

(1) Both transgender children and transgender adults exist, and have always existed historically, in many different types of societies. Some people consider them a moral wrong, but their existence is clearly documented.

(2) From experience, I have known many transgender people including some very good friends. Regarding kids, my neighbor's kid Jayden is transgender as is my old friend's kid Joe. The transgender people I've known well have all been perfectly functional and nice people. They have also been quite well informed about the science of biological gender. (I've also met some transgender assholes, including a few friends of friends.)

(3) The question is how do we treat such people. It's possible to demand that they act their originally assigned gender - but "just don't be transgender" seems to be the same as "praying the gay away". I don't think that these approaches work. Kids still turn out transgender and/or gay even if they have parents who firmly tell them not to be.

(4) I don't claim to know the best approach for dealing with transgender kids, but as far as I can tell, the parents of transgender kids that I know are handling it reasonably. They want what is best for their kids.

Zelen

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Re: What will divide us next?
« Reply #51 on: October 20, 2021, 07:05:09 PM »
Sorry, but this degree of blatant falsehood and lying earns an "Ignore" from me.

Shasarak

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Re: What will divide us next?
« Reply #52 on: October 20, 2021, 07:12:10 PM »
Turns out that Munchausen syndrome by proxy is much more prevalent then intersex children.
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deathknight4044

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Re: What will divide us next?
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2021, 02:24:15 AM »
Quote
Even though intersex children are rare, I think they involve the same ethical issues that oggsmash was talking about - such as (a) whether kids should have irreversible, not-physically-necessary genital surgery done to them before 18, and (b) to what extent kids should have input into the surgery done to them.
This is akin to conflating someone being blind with someone who wants to remove their eyes due to BIID.
Quote
(1) Both transgender children and transgender adults exist, and have always existed historically, in many different types of societies. Some people consider them a moral wrong, but their existence is clearly documented.
But rapid onset gender rapid onset gender dysphoria isn't the same thing as eunuchs or castratos existing.
Quote
(2) From experience, I have known many transgender people including some very good friends. Regarding kids, my neighbor's kid Jayden is transgender as is my old friend's kid Joe. The transgender people I've known well have all been perfectly functional and nice people. They have also been quite well informed about the science of biological gender. (I've also met some transgender assholes, including a few friends of friends.)
These people attempt suicide at obscenely high rates and are disproportionately riddled with drug problems and mental illness. Someone mutilating their genitalia and crying every time they see themselves in a mirror isn't a normal person.
Quote
(3) The question is how do we treat such people. It's possible to demand that they act their originally assigned gender - but "just don't be transgender" seems to be the same as "praying the gay away". I don't think that these approaches work. Kids still turn out transgender and/or gay even if they have parents who firmly tell them not to be.
Did you notice that rates of suicide and mental illness were much lower when we did just that,, and didn't entertain people LARPing as the opposite sex and butchering their sex organs?
Quote
(4) I don't claim to know the best approach for dealing with transgender kids, but as far as I can tell, the parents of transgender kids that I know are handling it reasonably. They want what is best for their kids.
Quote
Turns out that Munchausen syndrome by proxy is much more prevalent then intersex children.

SHARK

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Re: What will divide us next?
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2021, 02:55:16 AM »
Greetings!

Geesus. There are so very many people in our society that need to be sent to a Happy Farms Asylum, isolated and locked up there for their own safety, where they are regularly pumped *FULL* of Happy Pills, and strictly supervised 24/7 by highly-trained, disciplined professionals that don't coddle fucking mentally ill freaks. The Happy Farms Asylum should also be fully equipped with straight-jackets, padded rubber rooms, and good, Conservative Christian ministers and preachers that thoroughly supervise these mentally ill people.

Meanwhile, there are droves of brain-damaged fucked up parents that need to be charged with neglect, Child Abuse, Child Endangerment, and I imagine several other charges as well. They need to be locked up hard. Their children then need to be taken by the state and placed in Conservative, Christian Child Centers and Adoption Agencies.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
« Last Edit: October 21, 2021, 02:58:51 AM by SHARK »
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security bred from familiar things and familiar ways. It narrows the mind. Weakens the body. And robs the soul of spirit and determination. Comfort is neither welcome nor tolerated here."

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jhkim

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Re: What will divide us next?
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2021, 01:43:20 PM »
(3) The question is how do we treat such people. It's possible to demand that they act their originally assigned gender - but "just don't be transgender" seems to be the same as "praying the gay away". I don't think that these approaches work. Kids still turn out transgender and/or gay even if they have parents who firmly tell them not to be.

Did you notice that rates of suicide and mental illness were much lower when we did just that,, and didn't entertain people LARPing as the opposite sex and butchering their sex organs?

No, I don't. First of all, worldwide, suicide rates are going down from a peak in the 1990s.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/suicide-death-rates-by-sex?country=~OWID_WRL

That's a good thing overall. Depending on country, though, rates may be going up or down.



Over the last 20 years, the rates have gone up in the U.S. and South Korea, but down in England, France, Russia, and Japan. But that is almost entirely non-transgender people. So the question is, are non-transgender Americans killing themselves more just because transgender people are more accepted? I think the simpler explanation is that the change is caused by factors other than transgender acceptance. As one data point, I would note that the California suicide rate has risen less than the overall U.S. rate, and California has one of the lowest suicide rates of all the states.

For suicide of transgender people specifically, the rate has always been high. That is, transgender people have risks different than non-transgender, but there's no indication that these problems are made better by taking a tough "pray the gay away" approach. I don't find many statistics broken down by year. The study below is from Holland, and it found a decreasing rate among trans women, and the same rate for trans men.

Quote
Out of 5107 trans women (median age at first visit 28 years, median follow‐up time 10 years) and 3156 trans men (median age at first visit 20 years, median follow‐up time 5 years), 41 trans women and 8 trans men died by suicide. In trans women, suicide deaths decreased over time, while it did not change in trans men. Of all suicide deaths, 14 people were no longer in treatment, 35 were in treatment in the previous two years. The mean number of suicides in the years 2013–2017 was higher in the trans population compared with the Dutch population.
Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/

If you have a source for American trans people, I'd be interested - I couldn't find one by search.


jhkim

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Re: What will divide us next?
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2021, 01:52:08 PM »
!
There are so very many people in our society that need to be sent to a Happy Farms Asylum, isolated and locked up there for their own safety, where they are regularly pumped *FULL* of Happy Pills, and strictly supervised 24/7 by highly-trained, disciplined professionals that don't coddle fucking mentally ill freaks. The Happy Farms Asylum should also be fully equipped with straight-jackets, padded rubber rooms, and good, Conservative Christian ministers and preachers that thoroughly supervise these mentally ill people.

I don't know what your church is like, SHARK - but in my experience, good Christian ministers are likely to preach tolerance and acceptance. I know I learned about gay and transgender acceptance at my Presbyterian church growing up. I'd encourage listening to Mark Wingfield, a Baptist minister in Texas, who talks about his journey with transgender people from his church.

https://baptistnews.com/article/baptist-minister-unlikely-advocate-for-transgender-community/

GriswaldTerrastone

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Re: What will divide us next?
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2021, 05:04:42 PM »
On the one hand all we hear about is endless babble about SCIENCE.

Yet on the other we are told that "transsexuals" are not crazy and yes there are 76 different "genders?"

No. Just no.
I'm 55. My profile won't record this. It's only right younger members know how old I am.

Zelen

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Re: What will divide us next?
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2021, 05:22:27 PM »
I encourage people here, particularly those aren't using social media, to watch and observe this video demonstrating how the Woke religion uses the "Gender" lie & social media to create psychic contagions that cause children to damage their own minds & bodies. This is particularly prevalent among young girls.

https://odysee.com/@iHypocrite:d/fake-disorder-cringe-(explained):6

jhkim

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Re: What will divide us next?
« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2021, 06:14:28 PM »
I encourage people here, particularly those aren't using social media, to watch and observe this video demonstrating how the Woke religion uses the "Gender" lie & social media to create psychic contagions that cause children to damage their own minds & bodies. This is particularly prevalent among young girls.

https://odysee.com/@iHypocrite:d/fake-disorder-cringe-(explained):6

Hi, Zelen. That link didn't work for me. Do you have a different source for the content?