This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
The RPGPundit's Own Forum Rules
This part of the site is controlled by the RPGPundit. This is where he discusses topics that he finds interesting. You may post here, but understand that there are limits. The RPGPundit can shut down any thread, topic of discussion, or user in a thread at his pleasure. This part of the site is essentially his house, so keep that in mind. Note that this is the only part of the site where political discussion is permitted, but is regulated by the RPGPundit.

Author Topic: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery  (Read 14594 times)

Eirikrautha

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1266
Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #120 on: May 01, 2023, 06:49:09 AM »
In YOUR ideology the past sins must ALWAYS be kept to the forefront and no amount of good deeds can ever erase them. A funny thing for someone who calls himself Christian.

GeekyBugle, you are the one claiming that you judge a modern country by its history of slavery. You're the one who brought up the topic in order to say that Wakanda is evil, citing the history of slavery. Likewise, you recently posted a video where people similarly claimed modern Korea was evil based on its history of slavery.

I haven't said anything about judging modern countries at all by their history of slavery - and certainly not calling them evil. History is important to understand the present, but the important thing is to change the future.

And this is why people accuse you of being disingenuous and a liar.  Because each of the points you object to was a direct response to something you had said or implied.  This is also the reason that neither you nor anyone who thinks like you should ever be in a position of authority:  because your inability to take responsibility for your half of the discussion shows that you will never solve any problems, only attempt to deflect them onto others.

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11746
Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #121 on: May 01, 2023, 12:28:45 PM »
In YOUR ideology the past sins must ALWAYS be kept to the forefront and no amount of good deeds can ever erase them. A funny thing for someone who calls himself Christian.

GeekyBugle, you are the one claiming that you judge a modern country by its history of slavery. You're the one who brought up the topic in order to say that Wakanda is evil, citing the history of slavery. Likewise, you recently posted a video where people similarly claimed modern Korea was evil based on its history of slavery.

I haven't said anything about judging modern countries at all by their history of slavery - and certainly not calling them evil. History is important to understand the present, but the important thing is to change the future.

And this is why people accuse you of being disingenuous and a liar.  Because each of the points you object to was a direct response to something you had said or implied.  This is also the reason that neither you nor anyone who thinks like you should ever be in a position of authority:  because your inability to take responsibility for your half of the discussion shows that you will never solve any problems, only attempt to deflect them onto others.

Eirikrautha, GeekyBugle started his point that Wakanda is evil because of the history of slavery in reply #104.

Prior to that, I was focused on Wakanda's no-immigration policy, using the parallel of Brigadoon. I don't see that I said anything about slavery. If you can see a place where I did, please point it out to me. It seems to me more that posters are making assumptions about me rather than anything that I actually say. That's why I try to ask more questions rather than assume someone else's position.

For the point going forward -- do you think that Wakanda's history with regards to slavery means that it is evil, as GeekyBugle holds?

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7399
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #122 on: May 01, 2023, 02:33:26 PM »
In YOUR ideology the past sins must ALWAYS be kept to the forefront and no amount of good deeds can ever erase them. A funny thing for someone who calls himself Christian.

GeekyBugle, you are the one claiming that you judge a modern country by its history of slavery. You're the one who brought up the topic in order to say that Wakanda is evil, citing the history of slavery. Likewise, you recently posted a video where people similarly claimed modern Korea was evil based on its history of slavery.

I haven't said anything about judging modern countries at all by their history of slavery - and certainly not calling them evil. History is important to understand the present, but the important thing is to change the future.

And this is why people accuse you of being disingenuous and a liar.  Because each of the points you object to was a direct response to something you had said or implied.  This is also the reason that neither you nor anyone who thinks like you should ever be in a position of authority:  because your inability to take responsibility for your half of the discussion shows that you will never solve any problems, only attempt to deflect them onto others.

Eirikrautha, GeekyBugle started his point that Wakanda is evil because of the history of slavery in reply #104.

Prior to that, I was focused on Wakanda's no-immigration policy, using the parallel of Brigadoon. I don't see that I said anything about slavery. If you can see a place where I did, please point it out to me. It seems to me more that posters are making assumptions about me rather than anything that I actually say. That's why I try to ask more questions rather than assume someone else's position.

For the point going forward -- do you think that Wakanda's history with regards to slavery means that it is evil, as GeekyBugle holds?

Which was AFTER you switched from asserting that it WASN'T an Ethnostate to why do I find Wakanda morally evil.

Which you THEN switched to say that the UK ONLY abolished slavery because it wanted to hurt it's former colonies.

You were proven wrong but didn't concede the point.

But do you want MORE reasons why Wakanda (if it was real) would be the most EVIL country ever to exist? Supertech, super-science that they REFUSE to share with the rest of the world, one would imagine this is due to their ethno-supremacist stances.

BTW, you were also proven wrong about Israel being an Ethnostate, and you didn't concede the point either.

So, let's drag the conversation back to before it was derailed:

Wakanda IS an Ethnostate by all definitions.

Israel ISN'T an Ethnostate even if you stretch the definition.

Those points have been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, will you concede the points?
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7399
  • Now even more Toxic
Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #123 on: May 01, 2023, 02:38:20 PM »
In YOUR ideology the past sins must ALWAYS be kept to the forefront and no amount of good deeds can ever erase them. A funny thing for someone who calls himself Christian.

GeekyBugle, you are the one claiming that you judge a modern country by its history of slavery. You're the one who brought up the topic in order to say that Wakanda is evil, citing the history of slavery. Likewise, you recently posted a video where people similarly claimed modern Korea was evil based on its history of slavery.

I haven't said anything about judging modern countries at all by their history of slavery - and certainly not calling them evil. History is important to understand the present, but the important thing is to change the future.

But if you're going to judge the country for their sins you need to do so for the ones they haven't washed away. For instance the "war on terror", destabilizing countries for profit, etc. While keeping in mind that (like during slavery) there's people in those countries speaking against those evil deeds even if they haven't been allowed to do anything because they are just a bunch of istaphobes.

I'd love more voices speaking against the "war on terror" and destabilizing countries for profit. We need to convince more people on both sides that its wrong, since it is a program that is thoroughly supported by the uniparty.

Nope, but IF Wakanda was real it would still be evil on the face of their present actions. As I have argued in my prior post.

Agreed, I would also love to hear voices on the left arguing their traditional anti-immigration stances, since they always called it a Koch Brothers scheme (and they weren't wrong), and more leftist voices arguing AGAINST the Islamization of the west, but they don't because it's a "brown" religion and Christianity is a "white" one, so they hate the later and love the former.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

jhkim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11746
Re: Towards a more inclusive Sword & Sorcery
« Reply #124 on: May 01, 2023, 06:13:39 PM »
BTW, you were also proven wrong about Israel being an Ethnostate, and you didn't concede the point either.

So, let's drag the conversation back to before it was derailed:

Wakanda IS an Ethnostate by all definitions.

Israel ISN'T an Ethnostate even if you stretch the definition.

Those points have been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, will you concede the points?

I never claimed a definition of the term "ethnostate", nor have I said that any country is or is not an ethnostate. What I said about Israel was to verbatim quote its own law regarding the definition of the country, and to truthfully describe its immigration policy. You have done nothing to disprove what I said -- you just claim that doesn't make Israel an "ethnostate". I will quote SHARK here:

Why the fuck do people care that Japan is a fucking "ETHNOSTATE?" Good for them. Japan does not need to let hordes of fucking foreign immigrants pour into their country. NO COUNTRY NEEDS TO DO THAT.

I agree with SHARK on this point. Wakanda has a no-immigration policy. You imply that by itself makes it an ethnostate. Fine, if that's how you want to define it. Why the fuck should we care?

You yourself said (in reply #106) that you have no problem with country X deciding they do not want immigration, and (in reply #102) that immigration alone isn't inherently a moral good or moral bad.

-------------

But do you want MORE reasons why Wakanda (if it was real) would be the most EVIL country ever to exist? Supertech, super-science that they REFUSE to share with the rest of the world, one would imagine this is due to their ethno-supremacist stances.

Like immigration, technology itself is neither good nor evil -- and thus sharing technology isn't inherently good or evil. If Wakanda were to be like the US and sell and/or supply powerful arms to half the world, I don't think that would make it better.

I would criticize Wakanda for its isolation at times, which is also what the MCU movies do. T'Challa decides to establish Wakandan outreach centers precisely because he criticizes the absolute isolationism of the past. Wakanda also cooperates with the Avengers in order to save the world.

I think Iron Man is a good parallel. Tony Stark keeps most of his advanced technology a secret from everyone, rather than freely sharing it. I don't think that makes him evil, but I do think that it is often a flaw rather than a heroic trait. His impulsive choices in using his technology lead to many of the MCU's problems -- like the harm caused by Ultron and EDITH.

On the other hand, I think both Stark and Wakanda have good reason to think that freely sharing their technology could lead to problems.