TheRPGSite

Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: Trinculoisdead on January 14, 2021, 12:36:01 PM

Title: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Trinculoisdead on January 14, 2021, 12:36:01 PM
I'm sitting in my work truck waiting for my boss to show up--we're painting a house in Santa Cruz, CA--and apparently there's a camp nearby because there's a steady stream of homeless men making their way past where I'm parked. One guy already did the "do you have a dollar you can spare?" Routine through my partially-open window. I heard him talking to himself a bit about how expensive it is to live here, and how he's not made of money. "Maybe you people are", he said. I'm not, of course. I can only afford to live in this county because my parents have property here.

Anyway, there are more homeless in my state than ever before, apparently, and some people I know point to their presence as an indication of a widening economic gap between the very rich and the very poor. I point to it as a sign of an increasing number of drug addicts and a willingness on the part of local governance to tolerate and care for this sub-group of the population. Anyway, what do you think? I for one wish that I could walk downtown without encountering crazies yelling into the air or pissing from wheelchairs into the bushes. But I don't know what's supposed to be done about it.

(One of my half-brothers is homeless here btw. In his case noone wants to help him because he's a drug-addled a-hole with an obnoxious temper who's burned almost all his bridges. But not all homeless are in that state, I know.)
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Shasarak on January 14, 2021, 06:04:11 PM
I would suggest to look at everything that California has done and do the exact opposite.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: David Johansen on January 14, 2021, 07:23:51 PM
Walking home from my store, in a small Southern Alberta city, there are homeless people in every nook and cranny.  It's been a warm winter (Jan 14 and we're above freezing with no end in sight) and they aren't going to the shelter.  The other night a woman who used to live in the suite behind my store with her boyfriend (who hit her) and his mother (who died last fall) came in crying (I haven't let her into the store since the time she stole my son's wallet) because the police just told her that her boyfriend (she even pressed charges at one point but they got back together) had been found dead of an overdose.  The guy had heavy equipment, carpentry, and firefighting training but he also had a criminal record and a drug problem.

I dunno, it didn't used to be like this.  Hopefully one day someone smarter than me will figure it out.  My solutions are generally considered reprehensible but when I'm dictator we're digging a ditch across Canada with picks and shovels and anyone can get a three square meals and a room in a mobile with three other people if they work on the ditch project.  When it's done, we'll turn 'em around and fill it back in again.  If there's a pipe line or some power lines at the bottom, well, why not?
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: moonsweeper on January 14, 2021, 08:34:56 PM
Walking home from my store, in a small Southern Alberta city, there are homeless people in every nook and cranny.  It's been a warm winter (Jan 14 and we're above freezing with no end in sight) and they aren't going to the shelter.  The other night a woman who used to live in the suite behind my store with her boyfriend (who hit her) and his mother (who died last fall) came in crying (I haven't let her into the store since the time she stole my son's wallet) because the police just told her that her boyfriend (she even pressed charges at one point but they got back together) had been found dead of an overdose.  The guy had heavy equipment, carpentry, and firefighting training but he also had a criminal record and a drug problem.

I dunno, it didn't used to be like this.  Hopefully one day someone smarter than me will figure it out.  My solutions are generally considered reprehensible but when I'm dictator we're digging a ditch across Canada with picks and shovels and anyone can get a three square meals and a room in a mobile with three other people if they work on the ditch project.  When it's done, we'll turn 'em around and fill it back in again.  If there's a pipe line or some power lines at the bottom, well, why not?

That is the proper way to do it.  It also has the benefit of the project being able to help the ones who are addicts.  Unfortunately, those kinds of programs were done away with here in the US years ago.  (At least on any scale.)  As much as I despise FDR, some of the work-for-welfare programs he used were a good solution for problems like this.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 14, 2021, 10:12:50 PM
I've spent some time thinking about the issue. I live in a sattelite town around the Seattle area. It was bad a few years ago when I would venture in Seattle for a gaming convention. Nowadays I wouldn't even go. (Not that Covid helps, as there are no events planned, but even if...)

From what I have seen and heard, layman's perspective incoming, the state and city government are far too lenient in the name of "compassion", to the point that here in WA we provide drugs to addicts and do not enforce drug laws.

http://seattle.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=8798717&GUID=B09D5B35-DE4F-49B2-A90C-3FBA415819EF

The problem with homelessness isn't the affordability of housing, despite the propoganda to the otherwise, the problem is the homeless are incapable of holding down a job and home due to their issues with drugs and or mental health.

My solution would be to enforce the vagrancy laws, and give the perpetrators the option of getting state provided rehab and or mental health services. Here in WA we already dump about 100 million into the problem, and it's only getting worse. (Unless you work for the government, of course) Divert that money to the rehab programs and enforcement of vagrancy laws.

If someone is homeless and isnt' commiting serious offenses, we can be a little lenient, Being a single mom living in your car isn't the problem. Being an addict or schizophrenic assulting people is.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/seattle-considers-excusing-misdemeanors-including-assault-for-homeless-drug-addicts


Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: KingCheops on January 14, 2021, 10:19:03 PM
Reopen the institutions so that those who have legitimate mental issues can get the help they need.  Many here were unceremoniously dumped on the streets when the government closed the hospitals.

Also allow family members to have people committed and just have a panel that determines if its appropriate.  You can't commit someone here unless they want to.  My aunt drank herself to death because of this.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: David Johansen on January 14, 2021, 11:33:10 PM
I heard a radio story about how poor houses used to work and how the institution broke down in Victorian England as the changes in agriculture and industry led to an influx of poor people into the cities.  I've thought for a while now that some people neither need or want a full apartment and that an arrangement where one gets a room with one bathroom for every four rooms or possibly a public washroom on each floor, both to make it easier to keep clean and to provide a chance of someone walking in if you're dying on the floor.  A cafeteria instead of personal kitchens.  The people living in the building could be paid to work in the cafeteria or doing the cleaning so they could make a little money and make themselves useful.  The objective would be to build communities where people could support each other.

How you do that without subjecting the neighborhood to crime and drug dealers or avoid creating slums is beyond me.  The difference, between what I'm suggesting and a prison is that you can leave or come back any time you want.

Here in Alberta, the government set up a program where sufficiently handicapped people are just given $1680 / month and largely left to themselves.  Why anyone thought it was a good idea to give drug addicts $1680 at the start of the month I'll leave open to speculation.  I know people who don't have a dollar left three days later and I know people who are able to buy homes and travel internationally on the same amount of money.  It's a stupid program.  My oldest son is on it and I still think it's a stupid program.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Arthur Frayn on January 14, 2021, 11:57:54 PM
I certainly don't have an answer, but I've always found it particularly tragic that something like 10-12% of this nation's homeless are military veterans.  Something about that just feels wrong to me.  It seems like with the ungodly amount we spend on the military every year at least some of that could go to making a special safety net for anyone who was willing to put their lives on the line.
 
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Daztur on January 15, 2021, 12:23:49 AM
The problem with homelessness isn't the affordability of housing, despite the propoganda to the otherwise, the problem is the homeless are incapable of holding down a job and home due to their issues with drugs and or mental health.

Well there's homelessness and there's homelessness. A lot of homeless people have jobs, live out of cars, etc. They're just not visible at all unlike drug (or often alcohol) addicted street people. Lower housing prices would certainly help that class of people. The easiest way to help those people would be to take a battleaxe to restrictive zoning regulations on housing. When you restrict supply shortages are the inevitable result.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: David Johansen on January 15, 2021, 01:13:03 AM
Affordable housing is always an issue.  I'm not sure what the answer is, probably not more 2500 square foot monster house suburbs.  I think we need to find a way to make the 800 square foot detached home with a basement and a yard the standard again.  I'm not sure what the economics are.  I know that density has its advantages but piling people in tighter and tighter seems to guarantee social problems.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: myleftnut on January 15, 2021, 01:26:59 AM
Lack of affordable housing due to high competition and low availability is the major factor for homelessness where I live.  High rent to income ratios for people with no savings get people in trouble quick.  And no not just bums.  Regular people with jobs are living out of their car.  Some of them never even lost their job.  The solution is the incentivize development of apartments buildings to combat the shortage but there is a lot of pushback from single family home owners. 

Homelessness is really exploding in my area.   There are more camps than I’ve ever seen. 
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Trinculoisdead on January 15, 2021, 01:39:10 AM
 In my county there are so many damn hoops to leap through when building a home. It's really, really hard to do now unless you have a spare million lying around, and it keeps getting harder. I work in construction, and even though it's flipping central California where it never dips below 25 degrees F, they're having us build homes with R-values appropriate for real winter climates. I live in a cabin I built myself, but I was only able to do so by doing it illegally without permits.

Tiny homes offer a kind of solution, because if they're mobile they bypass most of these restrictions. But even if every homeless person in the state gets their own and a flippin Tesla truck to pull it around in that will do nothing to help with the drug and mental illness problem.

Isn't there always some tiny little Nordic country that has dealt with all of this in some effective way? Are there homeless in Stockholm?
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 15, 2021, 02:10:12 AM
The problem with homelessness isn't the affordability of housing, despite the propoganda to the otherwise, the problem is the homeless are incapable of holding down a job and home due to their issues with drugs and or mental health.

Well there's homelessness and there's homelessness. A lot of homeless people have jobs, live out of cars, etc. They're just not visible at all unlike drug (or often alcohol) addicted street people. Lower housing prices would certainly help that class of people. The easiest way to help those people would be to take a battleaxe to restrictive zoning regulations on housing. When you restrict supply shortages are the inevitable result.

Yep. I consider them seperate issues with seperate solutions. Affordable housing isn't going to help a schizophrenic who stops taking her meds and runs away. (A personal family example of mine.) or an addict who gets fired for work performance and tardiness.
Those people need targeted help with their issues.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ghostmaker on January 15, 2021, 08:17:03 AM
Assuming Youtube hasn't deleted it yet, watch the documentary 'Seattle is Dying'.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: zircher on January 15, 2021, 11:52:41 AM
Just a side note, I'm still peeved that so many cities are downright hostile to tiny homes.  This is really an ideal solution for many people.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: ArrozConLeche on January 15, 2021, 12:03:22 PM
Just a side note, I'm still peeved that so many cities are downright hostile to tiny homes.  This is really an ideal solution for many people.

This happened in the 'Live Free Or Die' state of all places: https://www.insider.com/woman-evicted-new-hampshire-tiny-house-zoning-laws-2020-12
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on January 15, 2021, 12:38:11 PM
Just a side note, I'm still peeved that so many cities are downright hostile to tiny homes.  This is really an ideal solution for many people.
People that own "real" houses don't like the effect that tiny houses and other temporary structures have on their property values. Everyone is fine with tiny houses, but always NIMBY.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ghostmaker on January 15, 2021, 02:14:42 PM
Just a side note, I'm still peeved that so many cities are downright hostile to tiny homes.  This is really an ideal solution for many people.
I think it's a cultural thing. If you live in an area where square-foot space is at a premium (Taiwan, or Japan), you're not going to be able to live someplace big. America, by contrast, is huge. Europeans sometimes don't grasp how big the continental U.S. and Canada area is until they come here and find out that there are places you can drive for four hours and still be in the same state. So I think we tend towards wanting a bit more living space.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Mistwell on January 15, 2021, 02:21:32 PM
I would suggest to look at everything that California has done and do the exact opposite.

Not helpful as California has essentially done nothing other than talk about the issue a lot. So yeah, talking about the issue and doing nothing appears to make it worse. What is the opposite of that?
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Pat on January 15, 2021, 02:41:19 PM
I would suggest to look at everything that California has done and do the exact opposite.

Not helpful as California has essentially done nothing other than talk about the issue a lot. So yeah, talking about the issue and doing nothing appears to make it worse. What is the opposite of that?
Repeal the zoning laws.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ghostmaker on January 15, 2021, 02:41:42 PM
What do you do with people who are broken and appear to be incapable of functioning?

Since no one responded, I will assume people have not watched KOMO's 'Seattle Is Dying'. A point they make is that a large chunk of the homeless population (at least in Seattle) is mentally ill, drug addicted, and usually both (attempting to self-medicate).

You can blame Republicans for unwillingness to fund asylums and mental health programs, or Democrats for touchy-feely policies that didn't address bad actors and just exacerbated the problem. Or you can admit there IS a problem, gently collect these poor souls up, and put them someplace supervised they simply can't walk out of.

I can hear the screams now. But here's the thing: what else do we do? A lot of these poor souls are broken. I am not faulting them. I am not 'hating' on them. But they are completely unable to function. Yes, institutionalization is a big step and not in a great direction. I am completely at a loss as to what to do otherwise, because the alternatives are even worse.

See, here's the thing. People get excited when it's in their backyard. NIMBY doesn't just apply to nuclear power. If you let homeless people camp across the street, let them defecate in the gutters and harass people... sooner or later there's pushback. Ugly pushback. The word 'pogrom' comes to mind. Nobody wants that. Nobody wants to open up the news and find out that 'persons unknown' burned a homeless camp to the ground with molotov cocktails.

Collect them, treat them kindly... but do not let them back out unless they can (re)learn to function properly.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: jhkim on January 15, 2021, 03:03:36 PM
I would suggest to look at everything that California has done and do the exact opposite.

Not helpful as California has essentially done nothing other than talk about the issue a lot. So yeah, talking about the issue and doing nothing appears to make it worse. What is the opposite of that?

Here in California we've done a number of things that help drive up home prices. Mostly it's local restrictions on development. There's also Prop 13 from 1978, which gives a huge advantage to long-time landowners, and gives a huge disincentive to real estate deals. I think allowing and encouraging tiny homes would be great, for example.

On homelessness more broadly, I think the big question is what we do with homeless people. Even moreso than homeless people, the U.S. has a huge prisoner problem. We have around 40,000 chronically homeless people -- but we have over 1,400,000 prisoners. An easy solution to homeless people just lock them up. That's what a lot of places effectively do by vagrancy laws, so homeless people don't really have options except crime and/or jail.

I think the better solutions are (1) Reducing unemployment, (2) Increasing affordable housing, (3) Making mental health care accessible. But the devil is in the details with all of those. I think reducing local development restrictions to allow tiny houses is a good step. I'm doubtful about pork-barrel ditch digging to handle unemployment - there's usually plenty of simple jobs like farm work in California - the trick is that by current market, they don't pay enough to afford a home. Minimum wage doesn't solve this because it encourages owners to not have those jobs.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 15, 2021, 03:10:49 PM
What do you do with people who are broken and appear to be incapable of functioning?

Since no one responded, I will assume people have not watched KOMO's 'Seattle Is Dying'. A point they make is that a large chunk of the homeless population (at least in Seattle) is mentally ill, drug addicted, and usually both (attempting to self-medicate).


I have. I also follow Jason Rantz, who does a lot of actually looking into problems like these in Seattle and bringing them to light.

My opinion is that we shouldn't round them up until and unless they break any laws. From assault all the way down to vagrancy. You live in a city, you agree to abide by the laws.
Simple vagrancy should be dealt with by investigating why they are homeless and getting them into programs that help them get back on their feet. Job programs, domestic abuse shelters, etc.
For more severe crimes, like assault, determine if they are having mental health and/or drug abuse problems and them them into programs to help them with that.

If someone refuses help, then put them in jail for whatever crime they commited, and don't just release them, like Seattle does.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ghostmaker on January 15, 2021, 03:13:52 PM

I have. I also follow Jason Rantz, who does a lot of actually looking into problems like these in Seattle and bringing them to light.
I withdraw said remark then.

I stand by my recommendation of institutionalization though.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 15, 2021, 03:17:35 PM

I have. I also follow Jason Rantz, who does a lot of actually looking into problems like these in Seattle and bringing them to light.
I withdraw said remark then.

I stand by my recommendation of institutionalization though.

Editated my post to add my opinion on when institutionalization is appropriate.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Shasarak on January 15, 2021, 03:24:59 PM
I would suggest to look at everything that California has done and do the exact opposite.

Not helpful as California has essentially done nothing other than talk about the issue a lot. So yeah, talking about the issue and doing nothing appears to make it worse. What is the opposite of that?

What is the opposite of virtue signalling and doing nothing?

I guess we will never know.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: zircher on January 15, 2021, 04:57:37 PM
That would be Jimmy building houses.  Lame president, great human being.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: EOTB on January 15, 2021, 05:19:45 PM
When materialism wasn’t preached to the masses as a substitute for spirituality, one- and two-room homes were the norm.  And people didn’t use local laws to prevent them, in fear such homes would decrease the investment return on other properties.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: SHARK on January 15, 2021, 05:49:47 PM
What do you do with people who are broken and appear to be incapable of functioning?

Since no one responded, I will assume people have not watched KOMO's 'Seattle Is Dying'. A point they make is that a large chunk of the homeless population (at least in Seattle) is mentally ill, drug addicted, and usually both (attempting to self-medicate).

You can blame Republicans for unwillingness to fund asylums and mental health programs, or Democrats for touchy-feely policies that didn't address bad actors and just exacerbated the problem. Or you can admit there IS a problem, gently collect these poor souls up, and put them someplace supervised they simply can't walk out of.

I can hear the screams now. But here's the thing: what else do we do? A lot of these poor souls are broken. I am not faulting them. I am not 'hating' on them. But they are completely unable to function. Yes, institutionalization is a big step and not in a great direction. I am completely at a loss as to what to do otherwise, because the alternatives are even worse.

See, here's the thing. People get excited when it's in their backyard. NIMBY doesn't just apply to nuclear power. If you let homeless people camp across the street, let them defecate in the gutters and harass people... sooner or later there's pushback. Ugly pushback. The word 'pogrom' comes to mind. Nobody wants that. Nobody wants to open up the news and find out that 'persons unknown' burned a homeless camp to the ground with molotov cocktails.

Collect them, treat them kindly... but do not let them back out unless they can (re)learn to function properly.

Greetings!

Hey there, Ghostmaker! I've watched KOMO's "Seattle is Dying". Good documentary, as well as tragic and frustrating. I think Tiny Homes are a great idea and a good development for affordable housing, and for different housing options for not just young couples or singles searching for a place to live--but everyone, or anyone. There are many "empty nesters" that don't want to live in a 4,000 square foot house, as something much smaller is easier to maintain, and a great option for one or two people.

As to the homeless--well, yeah, they are a growing problem. A vast majority of them are drug addicts and alcoholics, or some combination of both. Add in the mentally damaged--some of which are naturally dealing with such, from birth, etc, through no fault of their own--while many of these mentally defective homeless people have developed mental illnesses as a consequence and byproduct of their years of drug addiction. The huge spectre of many of these people is yeah, they are not just "unemployable"--they have become entirely non-functional. These people's lives revolve entirely around fucking, getting high on drugs, and laying around. Through some of my work several years ago, I often encountered homeless people up close and personal, on a daily basis. I have actually talked to them, interacted with them. Many of them *Like* being homeless. Their lives have been an endless train-wreck of disastrous and poor judgment, every step of the way. Emotionally, socially, their relationships, jobs, everything. Pumped with alcohol and drugs, laying about and fucking, doing whatever they want, is what their lives are centered on. Entirely entitled and narcissistic. They do not care what you, I, or anyone in society believes or wants. They get to live how they want, do what they want, and fuck everyone else.

The answer to how to deal with them is no doubt complex, with lots of self-promotion and fucked up ideology and utopian thinking, bureaucratic ennui, and more ultimately meaning that lots of money is poured into it, some people feel virtuous along the way, and nothing really changes.

I have argued about this problem extensively with my girlfriend, who is a social worker. She is a counselor that routinely deals with children, adolescents, and adults that are drug and alcohol addicts, or otherwise suffering from such relationships, in the case of children. She has a very benevolent and generous attitude about if her work saves just 1 out of every 10, she feels it is worthwhile and meaningful. She knows the stats are terrible, as I regularly list the *facts* for her about how the drug rehab industry is largely a fraudulent scam that accomplishes nothing, counseling is mostly circle jerking to platitudes, and so much of it is just a barrel of inefficient, wasteful bureaucratic shit that we just keep throwing money down the fucking drain for. I admire her generosity of spirit and her Christian faith, though she allows she doesn't like the facts that I present to her, she knows the system is fucked, and doesn't really have any definitive answers to my argument--other than her Christian conviction, which I can't argue with in good faith.

It bothers me greatly, though, that we are confronted with what? 10%? 20% or more of the population that gets a free pass. They get to fuck and breed, and do drugs, and lay around, vandalizing the community, threatening the community, and just being an endless, bloated fucking cockroach, totally dysfunctional, and mostly due to their own shitty, poor choices, their own selfishness and irresponsibility on a monstrous sale, for years in many cases, if not the vast majority--and the rest of society gets to pick up the whole fucking tab. We work, pay taxes, obey the law, try and live life right, and we are stuck with the tab for these millions of irresponsible, selfish, fucked up homeless people, most of which are addicts.

Like I tell her, how is that moral? How is that right and just?

She knows I sit at the right hand of Ghengis Khan though. ;D It is difficult for me to have any sympathy for most of the homeless people. Veterans should be helped, however, of course. I always strongly support such endeavors. She doesn't have definitive answers though, and she knows nearly everything I have argued to her is factual, and supported by research and reputable data, whether from counseling, the FBI, court cases, investigative research, and so on. The system is an absolute mess, all the way around.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: zircher on January 15, 2021, 06:14:41 PM
Hey there, Ghostmaker! I've watched KOMO's "Seattle is Dying". Good documentary, as well as tragic and frustrating. I think Tiny Homes are a great idea and a good development for affordable housing, and for different housing options for not just young couples or singles searching for a place to live--but everyone, or anyone. There are many "empty nesters" that don't want to live in a 4,000 square foot house, as something much smaller is easier to maintain, and a great option for one or two people.
Indeed, it could be a great option for retirement with independence as well.  Sell the house, move into a tiny home community, your equity would pay for it outright and give you a nest egg to live on.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: jhkim on January 15, 2021, 10:01:11 PM
As to the homeless--well, yeah, they are a growing problem. A vast majority of them are drug addicts and alcoholics, or some combination of both. Add in the mentally damaged--some of which are naturally dealing with such, from birth, etc, through no fault of their own--while many of these mentally defective homeless people have developed mental illnesses as a consequence and byproduct of their years of drug addiction. The huge spectre of many of these people is yeah, they are not just "unemployable"--they have become entirely non-functional.

Actually, the number of homeless people in the U.S. has been decreasing over the past two decades. They might be increasing in some areas, or just becoming more visible, but the total absolute numbers are going down - and the fraction goes down more since the population is going up.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/US_yearly_timeline_of_people_experiencing_homelessness.gif)
cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_States#Statistics_and_demographics

While there are some non-functional people for certain, most homeless aren't like that. Most are temporarily homeless and then get back on their feet again.

EDITED TO ADD:

It bothers me greatly, though, that we are confronted with what? 10%? 20% or more of the population that gets a free pass. They get to fuck and breed, and do drugs, and lay around, vandalizing the community, threatening the community, and just being an endless, bloated fucking cockroach, totally dysfunctional, and mostly due to their own shitty, poor choices, their own selfishness and irresponsibility on a monstrous sale, for years in many cases, if not the vast majority--and the rest of society gets to pick up the whole fucking tab. We work, pay taxes, obey the law, try and live life right, and we are stuck with the tab for these millions of irresponsible, selfish, fucked up homeless people, most of which are addicts.

The total homeless population is 0.17% of the population - and most of those are sheltered (i.e. living in shelters or group homes) - not living on the street. It's not millions - it's less than one million. We have more prisoners than that, and they cost more to house and feed.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: SHARK on January 16, 2021, 12:03:14 AM
As to the homeless--well, yeah, they are a growing problem. A vast majority of them are drug addicts and alcoholics, or some combination of both. Add in the mentally damaged--some of which are naturally dealing with such, from birth, etc, through no fault of their own--while many of these mentally defective homeless people have developed mental illnesses as a consequence and byproduct of their years of drug addiction. The huge spectre of many of these people is yeah, they are not just "unemployable"--they have become entirely non-functional.

Actually, the number of homeless people in the U.S. has been decreasing over the past two decades. They might be increasing in some areas, or just becoming more visible, but the total absolute numbers are going down - and the fraction goes down more since the population is going up.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/US_yearly_timeline_of_people_experiencing_homelessness.gif)
cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_States#Statistics_and_demographics

While there are some non-functional people for certain, most homeless aren't like that. Most are temporarily homeless and then get back on their feet again.

EDITED TO ADD:

It bothers me greatly, though, that we are confronted with what? 10%? 20% or more of the population that gets a free pass. They get to fuck and breed, and do drugs, and lay around, vandalizing the community, threatening the community, and just being an endless, bloated fucking cockroach, totally dysfunctional, and mostly due to their own shitty, poor choices, their own selfishness and irresponsibility on a monstrous sale, for years in many cases, if not the vast majority--and the rest of society gets to pick up the whole fucking tab. We work, pay taxes, obey the law, try and live life right, and we are stuck with the tab for these millions of irresponsible, selfish, fucked up homeless people, most of which are addicts.

The total homeless population is 0.17% of the population - and most of those are sheltered (i.e. living in shelters or group homes) - not living on the street. It's not millions - it's less than one million. We have more prisoners than that, and they cost more to house and feed.

Greetings!

Jhkim, I normally like charts. Sometimes though, charts are meaningless. I'm from California. I have seen homeless populations go from being virtually invisible and infrequently encountered--to whole armies of them, gathered in gibbering squalor, and encountered every fucking day, whether you are in Anaheim, Santa Ana, Los Angeles, Long Beach, Costa Mesa, Orange, and beyond. Every parking lot, many street corners, day or night. Santa Ana has *hundreds* of homeless people living near the library and government building, so much so that city employees need to be escorted by security to the parking garage so they are not assaulted and raped. Out in Anaheim, whole tent cities of homeless. In Westminster, packs of homeless everywhere. Garden Grove, and more. In fucking Huntington Beach, a friend of mine routinely had homeless people climbing his back fence and bathing in his swimming pool. The neighborhood has in recent years seen an increase in crime, vandalism, and vagrancy, all from homeless people. Not so long ago, Huntington Beach was a great city and a great place to live. It, like many other towns, has rapidly been turning into a shithole, overrun by homeless people. People in Seattle, and friends of mine in Portland tell me the same kinds of stories. Their cities are turning into dangerous shitholes filled with homeless people.

And again, you might like to believe that most homeless people are merely homeless temporarily, and soon "Get back on their feet." Nice. I'm not buying it though. I have personally met far too many homeless people that have been homeless for *years* man, with no end in sight.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: zircher on January 16, 2021, 12:41:29 AM
I've seen a decrease in my city, so I think it is fair to say that there is a redistribution of the homeless population in progress.  I know some of it is weather based and policy based, things got colder in OKC.  And, I would not be surprised if CA became more inviting.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Two Crows on January 16, 2021, 01:46:20 AM
I would be careful assigning causation here.

Most substance abusers are not lazy party-animals, they are people who are just far enough from suicidal that a daily faux-death has become their way of life.

Have you ever met a heroin addict?  Those people aren't living good.

It is entirely plausible that people who find themselves perpetually homeless turn to substance abuse as a coping mechanism.


As to housing reform; you aren't going to see it in a democracy.  For most Americans, their home is BY FAR their largest asset and the majority of their wealth.  Anything that makes housing cheaper is going to exert a downward pressure on those values.  The only laws & policies we see are working in the opposite direction ... all home values go up annually.
 
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: SHARK on January 16, 2021, 06:53:16 AM
Greetings!

Well, as I mentioned, homelessness has increased nationally every year over the last three years, consecutively.

"Trends in Homelessness
Compared to the previous year, homelessness increased by 3 percent in the 2019 Point-in-Time Count.  This marked the third straight year of national-level increases."

Source:

https://endhomelessness.org/homelessness-in-america/homelessness-statistics/state-of-homelessness-2020/ (https://endhomelessness.org/homelessness-in-america/homelessness-statistics/state-of-homelessness-2020/)

The giant map chart thing also shows that homelessness has increased in the states of New York, Washington, Oregon, and California, in particular.

Thus, based on the current and most recent data, what I said is accurate. Homelessness in America is a growing problem.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: jhkim on January 16, 2021, 11:06:29 AM
Actually, the number of homeless people in the U.S. has been decreasing over the past two decades. They might be increasing in some areas, or just becoming more visible, but the total absolute numbers are going down - and the fraction goes down more since the population is going up.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/US_yearly_timeline_of_people_experiencing_homelessness.gif)
cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_States#Statistics_and_demographics
Well, as I mentioned, homelessness has increased nationally every year over the last three years, consecutively.

"Trends in Homelessness
Compared to the previous year, homelessness increased by 3 percent in the 2019 Point-in-Time Count.  This marked the third straight year of national-level increases."

Source: https://endhomelessness.org/homelessness-in-america/homelessness-statistics/state-of-homelessness-2020/ (https://endhomelessness.org/homelessness-in-america/homelessness-statistics/state-of-homelessness-2020/)

My graph only went to 2018, but it's the same data. You can see the first two years of increase on the graph I posted. Yes, it did increase further in 2019 (to 567,715), but we are still well below the levels set in 2007. So... homelessness nationally went down 17% from 2007 to a low in 2016, and then up again 3.2% from that low to 2019.

That's different than the narrative you gave. Even if it had gone down again in 2019, it would still be a problem, and we should still try to address it. But it's important to see that we *have* successfully reduced it from 2007.

The giant map chart thing also shows that homelessness has increased in the states of New York, Washington, Oregon, and California, in particular.

Thus, based on the current and most recent data, what I said is accurate. Homelessness in America is a growing problem.

Why those states? And you're wrong about Washington - it has decreased there. From the site you source,

Since 2007 homelessness overall has decreased, but the ten biggest percent increases have been (in order) South Dakota (+72%), New York (+47%), Idaho (+32%), DC (+23%), Massachusetts (+22%), Montana (+18%), Alaska (+16%), Kansas (+13%), California (+9%), Minnesota (+9%).

Since 2018 which is the recent uptick nationally, the ten biggest percent increases have been New Mexico (+27%), California (+16%), Idaho (+15%), West Virginia (+12%), Kentucky (+11%), Georgia (+10%), Oregon (+10%), Minnesota (+10%), Kansas (+7%), and South Carolina (+6%).
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: SHARK on January 16, 2021, 03:10:05 PM
Greetings!

Yes, homelessness is a growing problem that needs to be addressed. I don't have much faith that the government bureaucrats involved will prove to be very successful. They will make lots of promises, embrace lots of compassionate-sounding rhetoric, and spend lots of money--lots of taxpayer dollars--and somehow, in the end, have little to show for it.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on January 16, 2021, 03:30:34 PM
Why those states? And you're wrong about Washington - it has decreased there. From the site you source,

Since 2007 homelessness overall has decreased, but the ten biggest percent increases have been (in order) South Dakota (+72%), New York (+47%), Idaho (+32%), DC (+23%), Massachusetts (+22%), Montana (+18%), Alaska (+16%), Kansas (+13%), California (+9%), Minnesota (+9%).

Since 2018 which is the recent uptick nationally, the ten biggest percent increases have been New Mexico (+27%), California (+16%), Idaho (+15%), West Virginia (+12%), Kentucky (+11%), Georgia (+10%), Oregon (+10%), Minnesota (+10%), Kansas (+7%), and South Carolina (+6%).

Huh. And Washinton's spending on the homeless continues to rise.

(https://static.seattletimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/city-council-homeless-spending-W1-780x578.jpg)

Interesting.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: David Johansen on January 16, 2021, 05:50:57 PM
So, how many found housing and how many died?
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: consolcwby on January 17, 2021, 12:00:08 AM
Should the homeless should be rounded up and murdered horrendously? No.
Why? Because they are the perfect people to test new covid vaccines on!
Why? So SJW autonomous zones won't have competition from the FREE city street people!
There. Solved it!

EDIT: Damn it! That won't work because most people are killing each other in line for the privilege of being guinea pigs!

nevermind.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: The Spaniard on January 18, 2021, 11:15:51 AM
Assuming Youtube hasn't deleted it yet, watch the documentary 'Seattle is Dying'.
  Great documentary, very eye opening.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Spinachcat on January 20, 2021, 07:33:40 PM
California has mastered the homeless crisis.

The states and cities throw tax money at grifters and useless agencies who do nothing and everyone else just ignores the heaping piles of filth and drugged out human vermin.

Viola! Utopia achieved.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ghostmaker on January 21, 2021, 08:22:54 AM
California has mastered the homeless crisis.

The states and cities throw tax money at grifters and useless agencies who do nothing and everyone else just ignores the heaping piles of filth and drugged out human vermin.

Viola! Utopia achieved.
Yeah, that works till you run out of other people's money.

Though with the newly anointed Pederast In Chief, I expect some of these big-spender blue states will be coming hat in hand to the federal government for bailouts. Sleepy Joe already plans, supposedly, to remove the SALT (state and local tax) cap on federal tax deductions, which means once again states with lower taxes will be propping up the ones with higher.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: zircher on January 21, 2021, 10:13:47 AM
Yeah, that works till you run out of other people's money.
Feh!  That sure as hell has not stopped California.  I think all states should have a balanced budget amendment.

[Edit]
Of course, CA does have balanced budget language, but that is just a limit on expansion.  It permits same as last year+inflation expenditures.  So, if last year was broken, then all subsequent years will be broken as well 'by law'.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ghostmaker on January 21, 2021, 10:34:47 AM
Yeah, that works till you run out of other people's money.
Feh!  That sure as hell has not stopped California.  I think all states should have a balanced budget amendment.

[Edit]
Of course, CA does have balanced budget language, but that is just a limit on expansion.  It permits same as last year+inflation expenditures.  So, if last year was broken, then all subsequent years will be broken as well 'by law'.
Yeah, it's so balanced that California's trying to crank out laws that will let them hit people who leave CA or don't even work in CA with taxes.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: DocJones on January 21, 2021, 11:35:22 AM
I think the problem in west coast cities is more visible because they've made it very attractive for the homeless.
I rarely saw homeless as the police used to roust them and send them packing here.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ghostmaker on January 21, 2021, 12:02:35 PM
I think the problem in west coast cities is more visible because they've made it very attractive for the homeless.
I rarely saw homeless as the police used to roust them and send them packing here.
Rousting them is kind of a short term solution. It's like being the little kid pushing his vegetables around his plate because he doesn't want to eat them.

Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: zircher on January 21, 2021, 12:37:48 PM
I know Tucson used to have a policy of giving the homeless some spending money and then shipping them out of state via bus.  I'm sure San Diego and Los Angeles loved that.  Of course, moving the problem does not fix it and it didn't stop people from coming back and doing it again.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: DocJones on January 21, 2021, 12:51:21 PM
I think the problem in west coast cities is more visible because they've made it very attractive for the homeless.
I rarely saw homeless as the police used to roust them and send them packing here.
Rousting them is kind of a short term solution. It's like being the little kid pushing his vegetables around his plate because he doesn't want to eat them.
You might be trying to solve a different problem. 

Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: jhkim on January 21, 2021, 02:34:16 PM
Yeah, that works till you run out of other people's money.

Though with the newly anointed Pederast In Chief, I expect some of these big-spender blue states will be coming hat in hand to the federal government for bailouts. Sleepy Joe already plans, supposedly, to remove the SALT (state and local tax) cap on federal tax deductions, which means once again states with lower taxes will be propping up the ones with higher.

From what I read, red states with lower taxes tend to be *more* dependent on federal money. Blue states tend to have higher GDP per capita, and thus bring in more federal tax money more than federal aid. In the Wallethub study below, for example, the most dependent were New Mexico, Kentucky, and Mississippi - while the least dependent were Kansas, New Jersey, and Delaware.

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700

https://taxfoundation.org/states-rely-most-federal-aid/

https://taxfoundation.org/federal-spending-received-dollar-taxes-paid-state-2005/

If you dispute these, do you have an another source that shows different results, where blue states are more federally dependent?
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: EOTB on January 21, 2021, 02:47:32 PM
Blue states should vote to dismantle all the federal mandate laws which drive that statistic, and also fund a lot of blue voter sector laws in red states (education, Gov admin, etc)

Red state red voters probably wouldn’t mind
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Pat on January 21, 2021, 03:04:14 PM
I think all states should have a balanced budget amendment.
I think all states should be made sovereign, when it comes to currency. California starts issuing Calibuxs, only accepts Calibuxs in payment of taxes and other fees, and issues all their debt in Calibuxs. That way, when their pension funds look unsustainable, they can just print more money. Because, doncha know, sovereign budgets don't work the same way as households budgets.

I suspect it would take less than ten years to prove that Modern Monetary Theory, or more generally Keynesian monetary policy, is completely unsustainable as California is wracked by credit defaults, hyperinflation, and a collapse of their economy.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Pat on January 21, 2021, 03:07:15 PM
I think the problem in west coast cities is more visible because they've made it very attractive for the homeless.
I rarely saw homeless as the police used to roust them and send them packing here.
Rousting them is kind of a short term solution. It's like being the little kid pushing his vegetables around his plate because he doesn't want to eat them.
It does force them out of sight. Which doesn't solve the underlying problem, but it does improve the quality of life for everyone else because it reduces the quantity of feces on Main Street.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: EOTB on January 21, 2021, 03:24:35 PM
We’ve always had hobos.  We’re never going to get rid of hobos.  The difference is that hobos 100 years ago almost uniformly had the life skills of today’s Eagle Scouts and instead of street shitting would live on the move, able to live off the land to some extent.  Offering odd-job skills to earn extra money.  “Homelessness” was in some cases purposely chosen by capable misfits. 

Female/child homelessness has also always existed, but society devoted more effort to mitigation of that on the private/charity level
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ghostmaker on January 21, 2021, 04:25:13 PM
Yeah, that works till you run out of other people's money.

Though with the newly anointed Pederast In Chief, I expect some of these big-spender blue states will be coming hat in hand to the federal government for bailouts. Sleepy Joe already plans, supposedly, to remove the SALT (state and local tax) cap on federal tax deductions, which means once again states with lower taxes will be propping up the ones with higher.

From what I read, red states with lower taxes tend to be *more* dependent on federal money. Blue states tend to have higher GDP per capita, and thus bring in more federal tax money more than federal aid. In the Wallethub study below, for example, the most dependent were New Mexico, Kentucky, and Mississippi - while the least dependent were Kansas, New Jersey, and Delaware.

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700

https://taxfoundation.org/states-rely-most-federal-aid/

https://taxfoundation.org/federal-spending-received-dollar-taxes-paid-state-2005/

If you dispute these, do you have an another source that shows different results, where blue states are more federally dependent?
A couple things:

First, the statistics used to justify the 'red states are more dependent' usually pile in -military- spending. Like, for bases. Not exactly welfare there.

Second, the state and local tax deduction is one of the biggest scams in the system. Residents of states and municipalities get to apply that tax as a deduction against federal taxes. Since we can't just magic that money up, someone has to make up the balance -- usually states and municipalities with lower tax rates.

Third, you can lecture me all you like, but California's pension system is completely out of control. The unfunded liabilities are, if unchecked, going to absolutely cripple them -- hence why California's been trying to find ways to tax people who leave or don't actually LIVE in California.

And I guarantee there will be a bailout for those hard-blue states. Rewarded, for their fiscal incompetence.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: jhkim on January 21, 2021, 05:49:42 PM
From what I read, red states with lower taxes tend to be *more* dependent on federal money. Blue states tend to have higher GDP per capita, and thus bring in more federal tax money more than federal aid. In the Wallethub study below, for example, the most dependent were New Mexico, Kentucky, and Mississippi - while the least dependent were Kansas, New Jersey, and Delaware.

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700

https://taxfoundation.org/states-rely-most-federal-aid/

https://taxfoundation.org/federal-spending-received-dollar-taxes-paid-state-2005/

If you dispute these, do you have an another source that shows different results, where blue states are more federally dependent?
A couple things:

First, the statistics used to justify the 'red states are more dependent' usually pile in -military- spending. Like, for bases. Not exactly welfare there.

Second, the state and local tax deduction is one of the biggest scams in the system. Residents of states and municipalities get to apply that tax as a deduction against federal taxes. Since we can't just magic that money up, someone has to make up the balance -- usually states and municipalities with lower tax rates.

Third, you can lecture me all you like, but California's pension system is completely out of control. The unfunded liabilities are, if unchecked, going to absolutely cripple them -- hence why California's been trying to find ways to tax people who leave or don't actually LIVE in California.

And I guarantee there will be a bailout for those hard-blue states. Rewarded, for their fiscal incompetence.

So you dispute the points, but you don't have any source that says differently? The state and local tax deductions are *included* in the calculations I gave. So, even with those deductions, blue states are still on average giving in more in federal taxes than they are receiving federal spending, compared to red states. I agree that the deduction can be seen as a scam -- but it is counterbalanced by the scam of getting more federal money.

As for military, in terms of economics, it's no different than any other federal government contract. It puts federal money into the state. If a state could get more military contracts and get more money, then the state benefits.

Yes, California has a problem with its pension system - but lots of states have different financial woes. In general, blue states are not financially incompetent. On average, blue states have higher GDP per capita and household income than red states. They host dominant financial institutions like Wall Street, Hollywood, and Silicon Valley. There's plenty of problems in blue states to nitpick, but overall, their finances are no worse than red states.

In terms of general debt, California is roughly average in debt as a percentage of GDP, and less than, for example, Texas.

https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/state_spending_rank_2021pH0C

Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: David Johansen on January 22, 2021, 12:21:48 AM
Well, I've got my American citizenship so if I ever wind up on the streets I'm headed south to somewhere warmer.  That's for sure.  You can't blame people who live out doors for wanting to live where the climate is mild.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Pat on January 22, 2021, 06:13:23 AM
In terms of general debt, California is roughly average in debt as a percentage of GDP, and less than, for example, Texas.

https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/state_spending_rank_2021pH0C
14% of $3.1 trillion is about $430 billion. Yet here's a source that says California's debt is $1.3 to 2.3 trillion, with pensions alone accounting for $1 trillion:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasdelbeccaro/2018/04/19/the-top-four-reasons-california-is-unsustainable/
I'd bet that 14% doesn't include unfunded liabilities. Which private companies are required to include on their balance sheets, by government regulators, because it's just common sense to include legally promised future commitments. But which the government frequently doesn't include on its own balance sheets, because they're trying to hide their own failures to control costs.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ghostmaker on January 22, 2021, 08:13:33 AM
In terms of general debt, California is roughly average in debt as a percentage of GDP, and less than, for example, Texas.

https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/state_spending_rank_2021pH0C
14% of $3.1 trillion is about $430 billion. Yet here's a source that says California's debt is $1.3 to 2.3 trillion, with pensions alone accounting for $1 trillion:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasdelbeccaro/2018/04/19/the-top-four-reasons-california-is-unsustainable/
I'd bet that 14% doesn't include unfunded liabilities. Which private companies are required to include on their balance sheets, by government regulators, because it's just common sense to include legally promised future commitments. But which the government frequently doesn't include on its own balance sheets, because they're trying to hide their own failures to control costs.
Yup. Jhkim is cheerfully quoting statistics that are, how shall we say, 'massaged'. Hence why I'm not really paying much attention.

And of course, the proof is in the pudding; why else would California be trying to pass blatantly illegal tax codes targeting people outside its jurisdiction?
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: jhkim on January 22, 2021, 11:44:30 AM
Yes, California has a problem with its pension system - but lots of states have different financial woes. In general, blue states are not financially incompetent. On average, blue states have higher GDP per capita and household income than red states. They host dominant financial institutions like Wall Street, Hollywood, and Silicon Valley. There's plenty of problems in blue states to nitpick, but overall, their finances are no worse than red states.

In terms of general debt, California is roughly average in debt as a percentage of GDP, and less than, for example, Texas.

https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/state_spending_rank_2021pH0C
14% of $3.1 trillion is about $430 billion. Yet here's a source that says California's debt is $1.3 to 2.3 trillion, with pensions alone accounting for $1 trillion:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasdelbeccaro/2018/04/19/the-top-four-reasons-california-is-unsustainable/
I'd bet that 14% doesn't include unfunded liabilities. Which private companies are required to include on their balance sheets, by government regulators, because it's just common sense to include legally promised future commitments. But which the government frequently doesn't include on its own balance sheets, because they're trying to hide their own failures to control costs.
Yup. Jhkim is cheerfully quoting statistics that are, how shall we say, 'massaged'. Hence why I'm not really paying much attention.

And of course, the proof is in the pudding; why else would California be trying to pass blatantly illegal tax codes targeting people outside its jurisdiction?

Yeah, the proof is in the pudding. When it really comes down to it, what matters to people's lives is proposed laws that haven't been passed.

Oh, wait. No, that's not the proof.

The proof is in actual results - in how people actually live. Things like GDP per capita, average lifespan, poverty rate, suicide rate, violent crime rate, and so forth. Yes, California has problems - but so do all the other states. When we compare *proven* results, California mostly does better than average. Regarding the statistics - if you have a comparison of unfunded liabilities by GDP per state, I'd love to see it. I didn't see a comparison of that in my search.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ghostmaker on January 22, 2021, 12:12:25 PM
Yes, California has a problem with its pension system - but lots of states have different financial woes. In general, blue states are not financially incompetent. On average, blue states have higher GDP per capita and household income than red states. They host dominant financial institutions like Wall Street, Hollywood, and Silicon Valley. There's plenty of problems in blue states to nitpick, but overall, their finances are no worse than red states.

In terms of general debt, California is roughly average in debt as a percentage of GDP, and less than, for example, Texas.

https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/state_spending_rank_2021pH0C
14% of $3.1 trillion is about $430 billion. Yet here's a source that says California's debt is $1.3 to 2.3 trillion, with pensions alone accounting for $1 trillion:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasdelbeccaro/2018/04/19/the-top-four-reasons-california-is-unsustainable/
I'd bet that 14% doesn't include unfunded liabilities. Which private companies are required to include on their balance sheets, by government regulators, because it's just common sense to include legally promised future commitments. But which the government frequently doesn't include on its own balance sheets, because they're trying to hide their own failures to control costs.
Yup. Jhkim is cheerfully quoting statistics that are, how shall we say, 'massaged'. Hence why I'm not really paying much attention.

And of course, the proof is in the pudding; why else would California be trying to pass blatantly illegal tax codes targeting people outside its jurisdiction?

Yeah, the proof is in the pudding. When it really comes down to it, what matters to people's lives is proposed laws that haven't been passed.

Oh, wait. No, that's not the proof.

The proof is in actual results - in how people actually live. Things like GDP per capita, average lifespan, poverty rate, suicide rate, violent crime rate, and so forth. Yes, California has problems - but so do all the other states. When we compare *proven* results, California mostly does better than average. Regarding the statistics - if you have a comparison of unfunded liabilities by GDP per state, I'd love to see it. I didn't see a comparison of that in my search.
Pat's already linked you to one.

How many people left California last year again?

Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Pat on January 22, 2021, 12:29:01 PM
Yeah, the proof is in the pudding. When it really comes down to it, what matters to people's lives is proposed laws that haven't been passed.

Oh, wait. No, that's not the proof.

The proof is in actual results - in how people actually live. Things like GDP per capita, average lifespan, poverty rate, suicide rate, violent crime rate, and so forth. Yes, California has problems - but so do all the other states. When we compare *proven* results, California mostly does better than average. Regarding the statistics - if you have a comparison of unfunded liabilities by GDP per state, I'd love to see it. I didn't see a comparison of that in my search.
Except the discussion wasn't about California, overall. It was about California's government. You're trying to switch topics to defend something indefensible. It's like something telling you they're dying of cancer. And you saying no, that's silly. Because they can still run as fast as they ever did, and they make lots of money. And that's what important. That's the big picture. Not the cancer.

GDP per capita is important. Really important. Take all the other metrics and throw them away important. It serves as a reasonable proxy for the standard of living for each individual citizen, and also for power and influence as a whole -- that's why countries with small GDPs regularly beat countries with large GDPs, if they have higher per capita GDP.

(Parenthetical aside: One metric for measuring government power I've run across recently is to multiply GDP by GDP per capita -- in other words, China isn't as big a threat to the US as doomsayers claim, because while they're roughly at parity when it comes to overall GDP, China's wealth is spread across more people, so a higher proportion goes to basic subsistence and other forms of upkeep. They don't have anywhere near as much discretionary economic power to throw around.)

And California has a high overall GDP and an even higher GDP per capita. So yes, it does very well by that measure. But they're also doing poorly by other measures, like government management of the homeless, government interference in housing, government imposed taxes, and government debt. And some of those are creating long term problems, that will impact the future GDP per capita. A small percentage of the taxpayers in California pay a very high percentage of the taxes, and they're starting to flee. The wealth has also largely been produced by a few specific sectors, primarily technology. But Silicon Valley is losing its stranglehold as more companies and looking toward places like the Northeast and Texas, and the increasing focus on remote work means even the native companies may start to hollow out. The massive government debt is forcing the state to look to raise their already obscenely high taxes, and even tax people out of state, which will accelerate the flight. That lowers their GDP per capita, and will reduce their future tax base, compounding the problems with the debt.

The question isn't whether California is rich. It is. The question is whether they're sowing the seeds of their own destruction. The Magic 8 Ball says maybe.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: jhkim on January 22, 2021, 01:56:00 PM
The proof is in actual results - in how people actually live. Things like GDP per capita, average lifespan, poverty rate, suicide rate, violent crime rate, and so forth. Yes, California has problems - but so do all the other states. When we compare *proven* results, California mostly does better than average. Regarding the statistics - if you have a comparison of unfunded liabilities by GDP per state, I'd love to see it. I didn't see a comparison of that in my search.
Pat's already linked you to one.

How many people left California last year again?

Most recently, Pat linked to an opinion piece which showed a number of worrying stats on California - but it did not provide any comparison to the same from other states. For example, will California have problems with infrastructure in the future? Sure it will. The question is, relative to its size and economy, how *much* trouble will it have compared to other states? I don't know that.

My point is - when we say "the proof is in the pudding" - that implies looking at actual results, not an opinion piece on what the future might be.


GDP per capita is important. Really important. Take all the other metrics and throw them away important. It serves as a reasonable proxy for the standard of living for each individual citizen, and also for power and influence as a whole -- that's why countries with small GDPs regularly beat countries with large GDPs, if they have higher per capita GDP.
Quote
And California has a high overall GDP and an even higher GDP per capita. So yes, it does very well by that measure. But they're also doing poorly by other measures, like government management of the homeless, government interference in housing, government imposed taxes, and government debt. And some of those are creating long term problems, that will impact the future GDP per capita. A small percentage of the taxpayers in California pay a very high percentage of the taxes, and they're starting to flee. The wealth has also largely been produced by a few specific sectors, primarily technology.
Quote
The question isn't whether California is rich. It is. The question is whether they're sowing the seeds of their own destruction. The Magic 8 Ball says maybe.

I won't argue with the Magic 8 Ball. It's quite possible that California will falter at points in the future - nothing lasts forever. And I have plenty of criticisms of California. But I also take known results as a more definite indicator than Magic 8 Ball.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Pat on January 23, 2021, 09:03:32 AM
Most recently, Pat linked to an opinion piece which showed a number of worrying stats on California - but it did not provide any comparison to the same from other states. For example, will California have problems with infrastructure in the future? Sure it will. The question is, relative to its size and economy, how *much* trouble will it have compared to other states? I don't know that.

My point is - when we say "the proof is in the pudding" - that implies looking at actual results, not an opinion piece on what the future might be.
An opinion piece about finances from a respected financial source (Forbes), and I didn't cite any of the opinions in the article. I used it as a source for concrete numbers about the state's finances, all of which the article attributed and linked to the original studies, and which massively contradict your numbers. And your reply is just that the future is unknowable. There's room for divergence of opinions, but you're denying there should be an opinion on the topic.

Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: jhkim on January 23, 2021, 08:33:44 PM
An opinion piece about finances from a respected financial source (Forbes), and I didn't cite any of the opinions in the article. I used it as a source for concrete numbers about the state's finances, all of which the article attributed and linked to the original studies, and which massively contradict your numbers. And your reply is just that the future is unknowable. There's room for divergence of opinions, but you're denying there should be an opinion on the topic.

Sorry. I did not mean to say that there shouldn't be an opinion on the topic, and I do take respected opinion pieces seriously.

From what I saw of the article, it didn't contradict my source - it just was using different definitions. My source was looking at general debt - but most of the article was looking at future obligations - like infrastructure maintenance costs. Yes, California has obligations to pay beyond borrowed money, but so do other states. In order to compare apples to apples, one would need to look at what the expected infrastructure and similar costs like pensions are for other states.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Pat on January 23, 2021, 08:51:02 PM
An opinion piece about finances from a respected financial source (Forbes), and I didn't cite any of the opinions in the article. I used it as a source for concrete numbers about the state's finances, all of which the article attributed and linked to the original studies, and which massively contradict your numbers. And your reply is just that the future is unknowable. There's room for divergence of opinions, but you're denying there should be an opinion on the topic.

Sorry. I did not mean to say that there shouldn't be an opinion on the topic, and I do take respected opinion pieces seriously.

From what I saw of the article, it didn't contradict my source - it just was using different definitions. My source was looking at general debt - but most of the article was looking at future obligations - like infrastructure maintenance costs. Yes, California has obligations to pay beyond borrowed money, but so do other states. In order to compare apples to apples, one would need to look at what the expected infrastructure and similar costs like pensions are for other states.
The article also looked at things like projected future infrastructure costs, but I didn't reference any of that. The part I cited was pure debt, i.e. existing commitments. Which worked out to $1.3 to $2.3 trillion, depending on the source, and that's far, far above the amount your source used. Vague and uncertain as it is (that's another problem), that's the real number.

That's because the government plays games with debt. Or be blunt, they lie. Because if a company promises to pay out $70 million dollars in pension funds, then they're required to put that on their balance sheet. This is a universal, basic accounting standard. But the government at various levels has exempted themselves from that requirement. Which doesn't erase the debt, so it means the official numbers are garbage.

At the federal level, look up the fiscal gap -- that includes all the promised future expenditures that have already been made for entitlements like social security and medicare. The already staggering official debt is a vast underestimate of the real federal debt, because it does not include those numbers. If you're interested, the GAO used to publish the real total, under an alternate scenario. But people started paying attention, so they just stopped publishing the numbers. But the last time it was published, the total was roughly an order of magnitude higher than the nominal debt.

California is playing the same games. Do you think they can just elect not to pay pensions to their workers? If you think that's nonsense, and you should, then you have ignore the official debt. It's simply not real.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: moonsweeper on January 24, 2021, 12:40:18 AM
An opinion piece about finances from a respected financial source (Forbes), and I didn't cite any of the opinions in the article. I used it as a source for concrete numbers about the state's finances, all of which the article attributed and linked to the original studies, and which massively contradict your numbers. And your reply is just that the future is unknowable. There's room for divergence of opinions, but you're denying there should be an opinion on the topic.

Sorry. I did not mean to say that there shouldn't be an opinion on the topic, and I do take respected opinion pieces seriously.

From what I saw of the article, it didn't contradict my source - it just was using different definitions. My source was looking at general debt - but most of the article was looking at future obligations - like infrastructure maintenance costs. Yes, California has obligations to pay beyond borrowed money, but so do other states. In order to compare apples to apples, one would need to look at what the expected infrastructure and similar costs like pensions are for other states.
The article also looked at things like projected future infrastructure costs, but I didn't reference any of that. The part I cited was pure debt, i.e. existing commitments. Which worked out to $1.3 to $2.3 trillion, depending on the source, and that's far, far above the amount your source used. Vague and uncertain as it is (that's another problem), that's the real number.

That's because the government plays games with debt. Or be blunt, they lie. Because if a company promises to pay out $70 million dollars in pension funds, then they're required to put that on their balance sheet. This is a universal, basic accounting standard. But the government at various levels has exempted themselves from that requirement. Which doesn't erase the debt, so it means the official numbers are garbage.

At the federal level, look up the fiscal gap -- that includes all the promised future expenditures that have already been made for entitlements like social security and medicare. The already staggering official debt is a vast underestimate of the real federal debt, because it does not include those numbers. If you're interested, the GAO used to publish the real total, under an alternate scenario. But people started paying attention, so they just stopped publishing the numbers. But the last time it was published, the total was roughly an order of magnitude higher than the nominal debt.

California is playing the same games. Do you think they can just elect not to pay pensions to their workers? If you think that's nonsense, and you should, then you have ignore the official debt. It's simply not real.

I think the current total is estimated around 220 Trillion for the US.  Which would indeed be an order of magnitude. 
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Spinachcat on January 24, 2021, 11:53:35 PM
How many people left California last year again?

Less than the number of people who will leave this year.

But it's important to note that LA's real estate market is absurdly hot right now. I don't pretend to understand the exuberance, but my realtor friends and acquaintances are unseasonably busy. Their best guess has been people are upgrading to houses from condos because they need more rooms since they plan to be in lockdown forever and never return to an office.

Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Spinachcat on January 24, 2021, 11:55:37 PM
Do you think they can just elect not to pay pensions to their workers?

Once you steal a presidential election, you can do anything.

Dems are magical now.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: moonsweeper on January 25, 2021, 01:16:35 AM
Do you think they can just elect not to pay pensions to their workers?

Once you steal a presidential election, you can do anything.

Dems are magical now.

That means they have an asterisk next to their Hit Dice and are therefore worth more XP, right?  :)
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Pat on January 25, 2021, 05:07:17 AM
Do you think they can just elect not to pay pensions to their workers?

Once you steal a presidential election, you can do anything.

Dems are magical now.

That means they have an asterisk next to their Hit Dice and are therefore worth more XP, right?  :)
Don't confuse them with the ones with an asterisk next to their names, that means they're immune to normal elections.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: KingCheops on January 25, 2021, 01:28:59 PM
How many people left California last year again?

Less than the number of people who will leave this year.

But it's important to note that LA's real estate market is absurdly hot right now. I don't pretend to understand the exuberance, but my realtor friends and acquaintances are unseasonably busy. Their best guess has been people are upgrading to houses from condos because they need more rooms since they plan to be in lockdown forever and never return to an office.

Probably  the same problem we have in Vancouver.  Chinese nationals looking to offshore money and have a bolt hole to run to.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Pat on January 25, 2021, 01:42:21 PM
How many people left California last year again?

Less than the number of people who will leave this year.

But it's important to note that LA's real estate market is absurdly hot right now. I don't pretend to understand the exuberance, but my realtor friends and acquaintances are unseasonably busy. Their best guess has been people are upgrading to houses from condos because they need more rooms since they plan to be in lockdown forever and never return to an office.

Probably  the same problem we have in Vancouver.  Chinese nationals looking to offshore money and have a bolt hole to run to.
The real estate market is up, almost everywhere. Because of the pandemic, the number of homes for sale is low. And because of the pandemic more people are working remotely, so they need more space at home and they're moving out of densely packed cities. Demand up + supply low = prices rise. Areas around cities are going up fastest (Jersey shore just outside NYC is crazy), but overall prices are higher than they've been a long time. Don't know about LA in specific, but it's a very spread out city to begin with. Chinese nationals are a more long term trend.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on February 02, 2021, 02:32:12 PM
Allow individuals to be incorporated and sell shares in their income. Then it can be the stockholders' problem and not the public's.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Bunch on February 18, 2021, 12:50:04 AM
How many people left California last year again?

Less than the number of people who will leave this year.

But it's important to note that LA's real estate market is absurdly hot right now. I don't pretend to understand the exuberance, but my realtor friends and acquaintances are unseasonably busy. Their best guess has been people are upgrading to houses from condos because they need more rooms since they plan to be in lockdown forever and never return to an office.


I'm curious how much of this is renters seizing a once in a lifetime opportunity to not pay rent for a year, build up a down payment and buy a house to get out of the renting world.

Mostly though I attribute it to a much larger number of people who were happy in a smaller apartment suddenly not ever wanting to be stuck for an extended time there again.  A gym membership, a rent check, a sizable dining out budget can all be collapsed into a mortgage payment and hey you actually end up ahead financially. 
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Trond on February 18, 2021, 12:01:14 PM
The data I managed to find say that substance abuse accounts for about one third of homelessness. Not claiming to be an expert at all, but I thought it would be higher. Does anyone else think that this is under-reporting drug abuse, or would you say this is accurate?
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Bunch on February 18, 2021, 12:23:19 PM
I believe the don't count alcohol as substance abuse.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: David Johansen on February 19, 2021, 12:24:06 AM
I'd expect the other 2/3 are insufficient income.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Bunch on February 20, 2021, 12:35:40 AM
I was looking at a Seattle report on why people are homeless and the number one claim is loss of job. 

It would be interesting to see how much overlap you have between drug use and homelessness because when I see lose of job I still tend to attribute it to drug use that caused loss of job. I could be totally wrong about that though and I'd like data that could convince me I'm wrong.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: David Johansen on February 20, 2021, 07:47:47 AM
I work with a guy who's a fairly heavy drug user.  He shows up on time, he gets the job done, and he's fun to work with.  My brother's in IT and he swears there's this one guy who drinks like a fish, picks up hookers, and still gets more work done than anyone.

The drugs can be a problem but the real problem is something else.  A philosophy or outlook, selfishness and laziness excused by defeatism, perhaps, job loss and homelessness are more complex than a single issue.

On the other hand, mental health issues and physical disabilities are also factors.

The psychotic (in the sense of flipped out and hallucinating) homeless lady who wandered into my shop a couple months ago, really shifted my perspective when she asked how I could be so selfish.  I mean really, how could I not allow her to steal or destroy everything I've worked for and made sacrifices to have so she can sit around and do drugs all day?
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: SHARK on February 20, 2021, 09:52:37 AM
Greetings!

Hmmm. 30% homeless rate due to drugs? Substance abuse--alcohol and drugs alike--I'd say is involved with at least 50% of homeless people. Probably closer to the 75-80% range. The incidence of impoverished and homeless Veterans is real, and the homeless, unemployed family man, hard-working and innocent, while legitimate and sympathetic, are a distinct minority of the problem. "Loss of Jobs"--yeah, many of these people lose their jobs because they are fucking drug addicts and alcoholics. Their involvement with drugs and alcohol flows into a whole mind-set and attitude of narcissism, self-indulgence, and irresponsibility. Which comes first? The fucked up, shitty attitude of entitlement, laziness, and irresponsibility, or being a drug addict? Who knows? It ultimately doesn't matter which comes first--they both are intertwined. Drugs and alcohol abuse and addiction also contributes to a chaos-filled social and family life in a disastrous and comprehensive manner. Drug and alcohol addiction ruins people's lives. The people that want to soft-peddle drug and alcohol abuse are fools. I don't care if someone knows a friend of a friend who snorts coke every week and keeps a job just fine, blah, blah, blah. The vast majority of people that get involved with drug and alcohol addiction open up a world of chaos and hell, for themselves, their families, and everyone around them.

My own sister-in-law became a homeless drug addict. I have also unfortunately known many people and their families, as well as people I have met through work that have been homeless, or impoverished and living lives of absolute ruin because of drug addiction and alcohol addiction. My girlfriend is a professional counselor that works for the government, where she deals with adolescents and adults that have drug and alcohol addictions. The vast majority of them have lives that are utter chaos and ruin, from start to finish. It isn't surprising that the majority of addicts become unemployed and homeless, because they become entirely dysfunctional. They live for their addiction, and nothing else matters. Eventually, many drug addicts and alcoholics become so damaged physiologically, mentally and emotionally, they are fucked for life, unemployable, and chronically dysfunctional on nearly every level and aspect of life.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on February 20, 2021, 10:27:35 AM
https://www.addictioncenter.com/addiction/homelessness/ (https://www.addictioncenter.com/addiction/homelessness/)
Estimates from this source are that 38% of homeless are addicted to alcohol and 26% to other substances. It also repeats the idea that 33% are mentally ill. The categories are not exclusive, and with that in mind, the majority of the homeless are neither addicts nor mentally ill.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Bunch on February 20, 2021, 11:59:03 AM
I see where you can't add the numbers up due to co-occurrence of each but I don't see where they say the majority aren't (addicted to something/mentally ill).  It might be true. Of my friends who have been homeless one was just lazy and kept getting kicked out of houses for being a mooch. One was a teenager girl whos mom's boyfriend was too handsy and mom wouldn't do anything about it. One was an undiagnosed bipolar disorder abusing cocaine and alcohol to treat it.  He cleaned up but he's still incapable of holding down a job due to his illness.  Sad because he is immensely bright but any stress and he spirals down. 
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on February 20, 2021, 12:07:39 PM
I see where you can't add the numbers up due to co-occurrence of each but I don't see where they say the majority aren't (addicted to something/mentally ill).  It might be true. Of my friends who have been homeless one was just lazy and kept getting kicked out of houses for being a mooch. One was a teenager girl whos mom's boyfriend was too handsy and mom wouldn't do anything about it. One was an undiagnosed bipolar disorder abusing cocaine and alcohol to treat it.  He cleaned up but he's still incapable of holding down a job due to his illness.  Sad because he is immensely bright but any stress and he spirals down.
It can also vary depending on how you classify "homeless" as it may or may not include those living out of a vehicle, perpetual couch-surfers drifitng from one friend's home to another, and those living out of short-term housing (like motels). Not all that are homeless truly lack for a roof over their heads.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 20, 2021, 02:16:58 PM
Let's do some napkin math.

Here in Seattle, there are an estimated 11,751 homeless people.

https://www.kingcounty.gov/elected/executive/constantine/news/release/2020/July/01-homeless-count.aspx#:~:text=King%20County%20Executive%20Dow%20Constantine%20and%20Seattle%20Mayor%20Jenny%20Durkan,11%2C751%20people%20experiencing%20homelessness%20countywide.

The 2020 budget for the homeless issue was 6.5 Billion dollars.

https://mynorthwest.com/1615977/seattle-city-council-budget-2020/?

I don't know administration costs, so let's say 20%.

https://smallbusiness.chron.com/percentage-budget-should-administration-10342.html

That leaves 5.2 Billion dollars.

5.2 Billion divided by 11,751 homeless people = 442,000. (I'm going to start rounding off)

442,000 dollars per person per year divided by 12 = 36,000 per person per month.

Average rent for a one person apartment in Seattle is 1,933 per month.

https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/wa/seattle/

That leaves 34,000 per person per month for addiction treatment, clothes, food, toys for kids, health care maybe some entertainment money...
Am I missing something?

Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on February 20, 2021, 02:46:03 PM
Let's do some napkin math.

Here in Seattle, there are an estimated 11,751 homeless people.

https://www.kingcounty.gov/elected/executive/constantine/news/release/2020/July/01-homeless-count.aspx#:~:text=King%20County%20Executive%20Dow%20Constantine%20and%20Seattle%20Mayor%20Jenny%20Durkan,11%2C751%20people%20experiencing%20homelessness%20countywide.

The 2020 budget for the homeless issue was 6.5 Billion dollars.

https://mynorthwest.com/1615977/seattle-city-council-budget-2020/?

I don't know administration costs, so let's say 20%.

https://smallbusiness.chron.com/percentage-budget-should-administration-10342.html

That leaves 5.2 Billion dollars.

5.2 Billion divided by 11,751 homeless people = 442,000. (I'm going to start rounding off)

442,000 dollars per person per year divided by 12 = 36,000 per person per month.

Average rent for a one person apartment in Seattle is 1,933 per month.

https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/wa/seattle/

That leaves 34,000 per person per month for addiction treatment, clothes, food, toys for kids, health care maybe some entertainment money...
Am I missing something?
Your own article indicates that sum of money covers a great deal beyond the homeless, like childcare, policing, and low-income housing (not the same as the homeless) among other issues. That makes your math fairly pointless from the start.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: SHARK on February 20, 2021, 03:06:48 PM
Greetings!

Well, fuck the "studies". My lived experience dealing with many homeless people first hand has demonstrated to me that a distinct majority of homeless people are very much drug and alcohol addicts. Not all of them, certainly, but a majority. Mentally ill people make up a large component of the homeless population as well.

Capable, mature, functioning, and responsible people typically don't become homeless, and when they do, they don't remain homeless for long.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on February 20, 2021, 03:24:07 PM
Greetings!

Well, fuck the "studies". My lived experience dealing with many homeless people first hand has demonstrated to me that a distinct majority of homeless people are very much drug and alcohol addicts. Not all of them, certainly, but a majority. Mentally ill people make up a large component of the homeless population as well.

Capable, mature, functioning, and responsible people typically don't become homeless, and when they do, they don't remain homeless for long.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
As usual, SHARK is playing his role as a bombastic dumbass to the fullest.

If we want to go with lived experiences,  I can say that I've seen many homeless individuals spend time in mental health centers when the temperature drops. Yes, they are "crazy" enough to play the system for a warm, dry place to sleep and hot meals for a few days because the system holds them for 72h if they claim suicidal ideation.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 20, 2021, 04:28:37 PM
Let's do some napkin math.

Here in Seattle, there are an estimated 11,751 homeless people.

https://www.kingcounty.gov/elected/executive/constantine/news/release/2020/July/01-homeless-count.aspx#:~:text=King%20County%20Executive%20Dow%20Constantine%20and%20Seattle%20Mayor%20Jenny%20Durkan,11%2C751%20people%20experiencing%20homelessness%20countywide.

The 2020 budget for the homeless issue was 6.5 Billion dollars.

https://mynorthwest.com/1615977/seattle-city-council-budget-2020/?

I don't know administration costs, so let's say 20%.

https://smallbusiness.chron.com/percentage-budget-should-administration-10342.html

That leaves 5.2 Billion dollars.

5.2 Billion divided by 11,751 homeless people = 442,000. (I'm going to start rounding off)

442,000 dollars per person per year divided by 12 = 36,000 per person per month.

Average rent for a one person apartment in Seattle is 1,933 per month.

https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/wa/seattle/

That leaves 34,000 per person per month for addiction treatment, clothes, food, toys for kids, health care maybe some entertainment money...
Am I missing something?
Your own article indicates that sum of money covers a great deal beyond the homeless, like childcare, policing, and low-income housing (not the same as the homeless) among other issues. That makes your math fairly pointless from the start.

Fairly pointless? We've got 34,000 per person per month for exactly that, as I pointed out. Policing isn't a factor because Seattle is "defunding the police", including the Navigation Team.

https://www.seattlepi.com/seattlenews/article/seattle-to-suspend-homeless-encampment-sweep-team-15612785.php

So, again, what am I missing? Where is all the money going? Why is 6.5 Billion dollars not making a dent in the homeless population?

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2020/07/02/new-report-shows-homeless-population-was.html#:~:text=Just%20over%2011%2C750%20people%20were,used%20to%20make%20funding%20decisions.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on February 20, 2021, 04:47:30 PM
Let's do some napkin math.

Here in Seattle, there are an estimated 11,751 homeless people.

https://www.kingcounty.gov/elected/executive/constantine/news/release/2020/July/01-homeless-count.aspx#:~:text=King%20County%20Executive%20Dow%20Constantine%20and%20Seattle%20Mayor%20Jenny%20Durkan,11%2C751%20people%20experiencing%20homelessness%20countywide.

The 2020 budget for the homeless issue was 6.5 Billion dollars.

https://mynorthwest.com/1615977/seattle-city-council-budget-2020/?

I don't know administration costs, so let's say 20%.

https://smallbusiness.chron.com/percentage-budget-should-administration-10342.html

That leaves 5.2 Billion dollars.

5.2 Billion divided by 11,751 homeless people = 442,000. (I'm going to start rounding off)

442,000 dollars per person per year divided by 12 = 36,000 per person per month.

Average rent for a one person apartment in Seattle is 1,933 per month.

https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/wa/seattle/

That leaves 34,000 per person per month for addiction treatment, clothes, food, toys for kids, health care maybe some entertainment money...
Am I missing something?
Your own article indicates that sum of money covers a great deal beyond the homeless, like childcare, policing, and low-income housing (not the same as the homeless) among other issues. That makes your math fairly pointless from the start.

Fairly pointless? We've got 34,000 per person per month for exactly that, as I pointed out. Policing isn't a factor because Seattle is "defunding the police", including the Navigation Team.

https://www.seattlepi.com/seattlenews/article/seattle-to-suspend-homeless-encampment-sweep-team-15612785.php

So, again, what am I missing? Where is all the money going? Why is 6.5 Billion dollars not making a dent in the homeless population?

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2020/07/02/new-report-shows-homeless-population-was.html#:~:text=Just%20over%2011%2C750%20people%20were,used%20to%20make%20funding%20decisions.
Look at the budget itself for real numbers. It's 800+ pages, but it'll give a more accurate place to start a discussion that what you've pulled out of your ass.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 20, 2021, 04:55:18 PM
Let's do some napkin math.

Here in Seattle, there are an estimated 11,751 homeless people.

https://www.kingcounty.gov/elected/executive/constantine/news/release/2020/July/01-homeless-count.aspx#:~:text=King%20County%20Executive%20Dow%20Constantine%20and%20Seattle%20Mayor%20Jenny%20Durkan,11%2C751%20people%20experiencing%20homelessness%20countywide.

The 2020 budget for the homeless issue was 6.5 Billion dollars.

https://mynorthwest.com/1615977/seattle-city-council-budget-2020/?

I don't know administration costs, so let's say 20%.

https://smallbusiness.chron.com/percentage-budget-should-administration-10342.html

That leaves 5.2 Billion dollars.

5.2 Billion divided by 11,751 homeless people = 442,000. (I'm going to start rounding off)

442,000 dollars per person per year divided by 12 = 36,000 per person per month.

Average rent for a one person apartment in Seattle is 1,933 per month.

https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/wa/seattle/

That leaves 34,000 per person per month for addiction treatment, clothes, food, toys for kids, health care maybe some entertainment money...
Am I missing something?
Your own article indicates that sum of money covers a great deal beyond the homeless, like childcare, policing, and low-income housing (not the same as the homeless) among other issues. That makes your math fairly pointless from the start.

Fairly pointless? We've got 34,000 per person per month for exactly that, as I pointed out. Policing isn't a factor because Seattle is "defunding the police", including the Navigation Team.

https://www.seattlepi.com/seattlenews/article/seattle-to-suspend-homeless-encampment-sweep-team-15612785.php

So, again, what am I missing? Where is all the money going? Why is 6.5 Billion dollars not making a dent in the homeless population?

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2020/07/02/new-report-shows-homeless-population-was.html#:~:text=Just%20over%2011%2C750%20people%20were,used%20to%20make%20funding%20decisions.
Look at the budget itself for real numbers. It's 800+ pages, but it'll give a more accurate place to start a discussion that what you've pulled out of your ass.

Why so angry? Are you mad at the idea of helping the homeless?

I've shown how housing every homeless person in Seattle is easily within the budget. It's not even half the money. If we're going to do it, let's fucking do it. Get them all an apartment, health care, counciling, etc.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on February 20, 2021, 05:12:15 PM
Let's do some napkin math.

Here in Seattle, there are an estimated 11,751 homeless people.

https://www.kingcounty.gov/elected/executive/constantine/news/release/2020/July/01-homeless-count.aspx#:~:text=King%20County%20Executive%20Dow%20Constantine%20and%20Seattle%20Mayor%20Jenny%20Durkan,11%2C751%20people%20experiencing%20homelessness%20countywide.

The 2020 budget for the homeless issue was 6.5 Billion dollars.

https://mynorthwest.com/1615977/seattle-city-council-budget-2020/?

I don't know administration costs, so let's say 20%.

https://smallbusiness.chron.com/percentage-budget-should-administration-10342.html

That leaves 5.2 Billion dollars.

5.2 Billion divided by 11,751 homeless people = 442,000. (I'm going to start rounding off)

442,000 dollars per person per year divided by 12 = 36,000 per person per month.

Average rent for a one person apartment in Seattle is 1,933 per month.

https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/wa/seattle/

That leaves 34,000 per person per month for addiction treatment, clothes, food, toys for kids, health care maybe some entertainment money...
Am I missing something?
Your own article indicates that sum of money covers a great deal beyond the homeless, like childcare, policing, and low-income housing (not the same as the homeless) among other issues. That makes your math fairly pointless from the start.

Fairly pointless? We've got 34,000 per person per month for exactly that, as I pointed out. Policing isn't a factor because Seattle is "defunding the police", including the Navigation Team.

https://www.seattlepi.com/seattlenews/article/seattle-to-suspend-homeless-encampment-sweep-team-15612785.php

So, again, what am I missing? Where is all the money going? Why is 6.5 Billion dollars not making a dent in the homeless population?

https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2020/07/02/new-report-shows-homeless-population-was.html#:~:text=Just%20over%2011%2C750%20people%20were,used%20to%20make%20funding%20decisions.
Look at the budget itself for real numbers. It's 800+ pages, but it'll give a more accurate place to start a discussion that what you've pulled out of your ass.

Why so angry? Are you mad at the idea of helping the homeless?

I've shown how housing every homeless person in Seattle is easily within the budget. It's not even half the money. If we're going to do it, let's fucking do it. Get them all an apartment, health care, counciling, etc.
You've shown nothing but a lack of understanding of how many thing the budget is actually spent on in favor of pulling WAGs and using them as the basis of a nonsensical proof.

EDIT: For actual numbers, go to https://openbudget.seattle.gov/#!/year/default (https://openbudget.seattle.gov/#!/year/default) and click "explore operating budget." From there, go to "education, health, and human services" and then to "human services." Now you'll see that "addressing homelessness" gets $97.5M. That's quite a bit less than your WAG of $6.5B. You can even finish up at https://openbudget.seattle.gov/#!/year/2020/operating/0/service/Education,+Health+%2526+Human+Services/0/department/Human+Services+Department/0/program/Addressing+Homelessness/0/fund (https://openbudget.seattle.gov/#!/year/2020/operating/0/service/Education,+Health+%2526+Human+Services/0/department/Human+Services+Department/0/program/Addressing+Homelessness/0/fund) to see how it breaks that value down.

So, did you want to talk with the real numbers, or just the digital fecal smearing of the numbers you've pulled out of your ass?
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Bunch on February 20, 2021, 06:12:32 PM
Let's do some napkin math.

Here in Seattle, there are an estimated 11,751 homeless people.

https://www.kingcounty.gov/elected/executive/constantine/news/release/2020/July/01-homeless-count.aspx#:~:text=King%20County%20Executive%20Dow%20Constantine%20and%20Seattle%20Mayor%20Jenny%20Durkan,11%2C751%20people%20experiencing%20homelessness%20countywide.

The 2020 budget for the homeless issue was 6.5 Billion dollars.

https://mynorthwest.com/1615977/seattle-city-council-budget-2020/?

I don't know administration costs, so let's say 20%.

https://smallbusiness.chron.com/percentage-budget-should-administration-10342.html

That leaves 5.2 Billion dollars.

5.2 Billion divided by 11,751 homeless people = 442,000. (I'm going to start rounding off)

442,000 dollars per person per year divided by 12 = 36,000 per person per month.

Average rent for a one person apartment in Seattle is 1,933 per month.

https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/wa/seattle/

That leaves 34,000 per person per month for addiction treatment, clothes, food, toys for kids, health care maybe some entertainment money...
Am I missing something?

6.5B is the entire city budget.  It was 3.2B in 2009.  Population has grown from 3.1M in 2009 to 3.6M in 2020.  This is all from quick searches online and may have errors. 
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: dkabq on February 20, 2021, 06:21:46 PM
Actually, the Seattle 2020 budget was $100M for homeless services out of a $6.5B total budget.

https://mynorthwest.com/1615977/seattle-city-council-budget-2020/
"This is the first time Seattle’s budget has cracked the $6 billion mark, and the first time it’s ever included more than $100 million for homeless services."

$100M/11751 homeless persons = $8510/homeless person
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Pat on February 20, 2021, 06:27:06 PM
$100M/11751 homeless persons = $8510/homeless person
With that kind of money, they could buy each homeless person a single, government-contracted toilet.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on February 20, 2021, 07:52:54 PM
Actually, the Seattle 2020 budget was $100M for homeless services out of a $6.5B total budget.

https://mynorthwest.com/1615977/seattle-city-council-budget-2020/
"This is the first time Seattle’s budget has cracked the $6 billion mark, and the first time it’s ever included more than $100 million for homeless services."

$100M/11751 homeless persons = $8510/homeless person
Ratman_tf prefers to stick with alternative facts for his proofs.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 20, 2021, 08:03:59 PM
Actually, the Seattle 2020 budget was $100M for homeless services out of a $6.5B total budget.

https://mynorthwest.com/1615977/seattle-city-council-budget-2020/
"This is the first time Seattle’s budget has cracked the $6 billion mark, and the first time it’s ever included more than $100 million for homeless services."

$100M/11751 homeless persons = $8510/homeless person
Ratman_tf prefers to stick with alternative facts for his proofs.

Wow. You didn't even let me reply before assigning an idea to me that I didn't even say. It's like you're arguing in bad faith to try and get at people instead of trying to discuss an issue. Good job, dickhead. Why didn't you point this out in your first reply? Is it possible you didn't realize it as well?

For everyone else, I stand corrected. I'll happily admit an error as long as it's being pointed out in good faith.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on February 20, 2021, 09:17:39 PM
Actually, the Seattle 2020 budget was $100M for homeless services out of a $6.5B total budget.

https://mynorthwest.com/1615977/seattle-city-council-budget-2020/
"This is the first time Seattle’s budget has cracked the $6 billion mark, and the first time it’s ever included more than $100 million for homeless services."

$100M/11751 homeless persons = $8510/homeless person
Ratman_tf prefers to stick with alternative facts for his proofs.

Wow. You didn't even let me reply before assigning an idea to me that I didn't even say. It's like you're arguing in bad faith to try and get at people instead of trying to discuss an issue. Good job, dickhead. Why didn't you point this out in your first reply? Is it possible you didn't realize it as well?

For everyone else, I stand corrected. I'll happily admit an error as long as it's being pointed out in good faith.
I told you where to look for the real numbers in my first reply to you. You just doubled down with your bullshit reading and "math" with made up numbers. You're also the one that tried to play the "do you hate the homeless" shit, so don't try to play the victim now motherfucker. Just eat your shame and let it go, because you shit the bed on this one.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: dkabq on February 20, 2021, 09:20:43 PM
$100M/11751 homeless persons = $8510/homeless person
With that kind of money, they could buy each homeless person a single, government-contracted toilet.

Actually, a government-contracted toilet costs north of $100K:
https://www.abqjournal.com/1483268/loo-takes-a-seat-in-old-town.html

I think the wind-powered models are less expensive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E92LVCjl_eQ

 :)
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Pat on February 20, 2021, 09:30:19 PM
$100M/11751 homeless persons = $8510/homeless person
With that kind of money, they could buy each homeless person a single, government-contracted toilet.

Actually, a government-contracted toilet costs north of $100K:
https://www.abqjournal.com/1483268/loo-takes-a-seat-in-old-town.html

I think the wind-powered models are less expensive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E92LVCjl_eQ

 :)
In the face of the harsh reality of completely justified and unavoidable costs, we might have scale back the planned handouts. We'll have to replace the gift of a toilet to each homeless person with toilet timeshares. Mary'll get May and September, and 6 days in March. David will get November and December, and July 4th.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 20, 2021, 09:37:04 PM
Actually, the Seattle 2020 budget was $100M for homeless services out of a $6.5B total budget.

https://mynorthwest.com/1615977/seattle-city-council-budget-2020/
"This is the first time Seattle’s budget has cracked the $6 billion mark, and the first time it’s ever included more than $100 million for homeless services."

$100M/11751 homeless persons = $8510/homeless person
Ratman_tf prefers to stick with alternative facts for his proofs.

Wow. You didn't even let me reply before assigning an idea to me that I didn't even say. It's like you're arguing in bad faith to try and get at people instead of trying to discuss an issue. Good job, dickhead. Why didn't you point this out in your first reply? Is it possible you didn't realize it as well?

For everyone else, I stand corrected. I'll happily admit an error as long as it's being pointed out in good faith.
I told you where to look for the real numbers in my first reply to you. You just doubled down with your bullshit reading and "math" with made up numbers. You're also the one that tried to play the "do you hate the homeless" shit, so don't try to play the victim now motherfucker. Just eat your shame and let it go, because you shit the bed on this one.

Sweetheart, you're the one with a chip on your shoulder and have admitted you're here to troll people, and came at me with your bitterness in your first reply, so don't get comfortable on your high horse.

I asked a question, and even asked if I was getting it right, in the very first post. I don't pretend to know everything and ask when I'm not sure. Thankfully, other posters picked up your slack and actually posted accurate numbers instead of a vague, "Go read this 800 page budget".
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on February 20, 2021, 11:09:47 PM
Actually, the Seattle 2020 budget was $100M for homeless services out of a $6.5B total budget.

https://mynorthwest.com/1615977/seattle-city-council-budget-2020/
"This is the first time Seattle’s budget has cracked the $6 billion mark, and the first time it’s ever included more than $100 million for homeless services."

$100M/11751 homeless persons = $8510/homeless person
Ratman_tf prefers to stick with alternative facts for his proofs.

Wow. You didn't even let me reply before assigning an idea to me that I didn't even say. It's like you're arguing in bad faith to try and get at people instead of trying to discuss an issue. Good job, dickhead. Why didn't you point this out in your first reply? Is it possible you didn't realize it as well?

For everyone else, I stand corrected. I'll happily admit an error as long as it's being pointed out in good faith.
I told you where to look for the real numbers in my first reply to you. You just doubled down with your bullshit reading and "math" with made up numbers. You're also the one that tried to play the "do you hate the homeless" shit, so don't try to play the victim now motherfucker. Just eat your shame and let it go, because you shit the bed on this one.

Sweetheart, you're the one with a chip on your shoulder and have admitted you're here to troll people, and came at me with your bitterness in your first reply, so don't get comfortable on your high horse.

I asked a question, and even asked if I was getting it right, in the very first post. I don't pretend to know everything and ask when I'm not sure. Thankfully, other posters picked up your slack and actually posted accurate numbers instead of a vague, "Go read this 800 page budget".
I posted accurate numbers before they jumped in, but you're the dumbfucker that tried to work a math problem with numbers you didn't even understand.

As for trolling, it's not really trolling when I'm on-topic and providing accurate commentary even if I revel in pointing out your fuck up along the way. But if it makes your butthurt more bearable for you, go ahead and deluxe yourself firther.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 21, 2021, 03:37:20 AM
Actually, the Seattle 2020 budget was $100M for homeless services out of a $6.5B total budget.

https://mynorthwest.com/1615977/seattle-city-council-budget-2020/
"This is the first time Seattle’s budget has cracked the $6 billion mark, and the first time it’s ever included more than $100 million for homeless services."

$100M/11751 homeless persons = $8510/homeless person
Ratman_tf prefers to stick with alternative facts for his proofs.

Wow. You didn't even let me reply before assigning an idea to me that I didn't even say. It's like you're arguing in bad faith to try and get at people instead of trying to discuss an issue. Good job, dickhead. Why didn't you point this out in your first reply? Is it possible you didn't realize it as well?

For everyone else, I stand corrected. I'll happily admit an error as long as it's being pointed out in good faith.
I told you where to look for the real numbers in my first reply to you. You just doubled down with your bullshit reading and "math" with made up numbers. You're also the one that tried to play the "do you hate the homeless" shit, so don't try to play the victim now motherfucker. Just eat your shame and let it go, because you shit the bed on this one.

Sweetheart, you're the one with a chip on your shoulder and have admitted you're here to troll people, and came at me with your bitterness in your first reply, so don't get comfortable on your high horse.

I asked a question, and even asked if I was getting it right, in the very first post. I don't pretend to know everything and ask when I'm not sure. Thankfully, other posters picked up your slack and actually posted accurate numbers instead of a vague, "Go read this 800 page budget".
I posted accurate numbers before they jumped in, but you're the dumbfucker that tried to work a math problem with numbers you didn't even understand.

As for trolling, it's not really trolling when I'm on-topic and providing accurate commentary even if I revel in pointing out your fuck up along the way. But if it makes your butthurt more bearable for you, go ahead and deluxe yourself firther.

Point out any mistakes I made besides getting the total city budget confused with the budget for the homeless programs. I was asking honest questions, and you got butthurt and lashed out like a child. We already knew you were a troll and an asshole, no better than the people you complain about. This is just more evidence towards that.
I don't even care about your opinions anymore. I just like to watch you dig your hole deeper. 
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Pat on February 21, 2021, 05:44:18 AM

Point out any mistakes I made besides getting the total city budget confused with the budget for the homeless programs. I was asking honest questions, and you got butthurt and lashed out like a child. We already knew you were a troll and an asshole, no better than the people you complain about. This is just more evidence towards that.
I don't even care about your opinions anymore. I just like to watch you dig your hole deeper.
HappyDaze's first reply to you pointed out a lot of things that were included in that xB$ total that didn't belong, in another post specifically told you where to look for the real number, and then in a later post provided the actual numbers. HD does troll, but not in this case. It wasn't particularly polite, but neither is your post.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Bunch on February 21, 2021, 10:56:14 AM
Actually, the Seattle 2020 budget was $100M for homeless services out of a $6.5B total budget.

https://mynorthwest.com/1615977/seattle-city-council-budget-2020/
"This is the first time Seattle’s budget has cracked the $6 billion mark, and the first time it’s ever included more than $100 million for homeless services."

$100M/11751 homeless persons = $8510/homeless person
Ratman_tf prefers to stick with alternative facts for his proofs.

Wow. You didn't even let me reply before assigning an idea to me that I didn't even say. It's like you're arguing in bad faith to try and get at people instead of trying to discuss an issue. Good job, dickhead. Why didn't you point this out in your first reply? Is it possible you didn't realize it as well?

For everyone else, I stand corrected. I'll happily admit an error as long as it's being pointed out in good faith.
I told you where to look for the real numbers in my first reply to you. You just doubled down with your bullshit reading and "math" with made up numbers. You're also the one that tried to play the "do you hate the homeless" shit, so don't try to play the victim now motherfucker. Just eat your shame and let it go, because you shit the bed on this one.

Sweetheart, you're the one with a chip on your shoulder and have admitted you're here to troll people, and came at me with your bitterness in your first reply, so don't get comfortable on your high horse.

I asked a question, and even asked if I was getting it right, in the very first post. I don't pretend to know everything and ask when I'm not sure. Thankfully, other posters picked up your slack and actually posted accurate numbers instead of a vague, "Go read this 800 page budget".
I posted accurate numbers before they jumped in, but you're the dumbfucker that tried to work a math problem with numbers you didn't even understand.

As for trolling, it's not really trolling when I'm on-topic and providing accurate commentary even if I revel in pointing out your fuck up along the way. But if it makes your butthurt more bearable for you, go ahead and deluxe yourself firther.

Point out any mistakes I made besides getting the total city budget confused with the budget for the homeless programs. I was asking honest questions, and you got butthurt and lashed out like a child. We already knew you were a troll and an asshole, no better than the people you complain about. This is just more evidence towards that.
I don't even care about your opinions anymore. I just like to watch you dig your hole deeper.

To be fair $100M is quite a difference from $6.5B.  it sets your argument off as something not well researched when you start out an order of magnitude off on numbers and confuse a whole city budget with a department sub budget.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 21, 2021, 04:03:26 PM
Actually, the Seattle 2020 budget was $100M for homeless services out of a $6.5B total budget.

https://mynorthwest.com/1615977/seattle-city-council-budget-2020/
"This is the first time Seattle’s budget has cracked the $6 billion mark, and the first time it’s ever included more than $100 million for homeless services."

$100M/11751 homeless persons = $8510/homeless person
Ratman_tf prefers to stick with alternative facts for his proofs.

Wow. You didn't even let me reply before assigning an idea to me that I didn't even say. It's like you're arguing in bad faith to try and get at people instead of trying to discuss an issue. Good job, dickhead. Why didn't you point this out in your first reply? Is it possible you didn't realize it as well?

For everyone else, I stand corrected. I'll happily admit an error as long as it's being pointed out in good faith.
I told you where to look for the real numbers in my first reply to you. You just doubled down with your bullshit reading and "math" with made up numbers. You're also the one that tried to play the "do you hate the homeless" shit, so don't try to play the victim now motherfucker. Just eat your shame and let it go, because you shit the bed on this one.

Sweetheart, you're the one with a chip on your shoulder and have admitted you're here to troll people, and came at me with your bitterness in your first reply, so don't get comfortable on your high horse.

I asked a question, and even asked if I was getting it right, in the very first post. I don't pretend to know everything and ask when I'm not sure. Thankfully, other posters picked up your slack and actually posted accurate numbers instead of a vague, "Go read this 800 page budget".
I posted accurate numbers before they jumped in, but you're the dumbfucker that tried to work a math problem with numbers you didn't even understand.

As for trolling, it's not really trolling when I'm on-topic and providing accurate commentary even if I revel in pointing out your fuck up along the way. But if it makes your butthurt more bearable for you, go ahead and deluxe yourself firther.

Point out any mistakes I made besides getting the total city budget confused with the budget for the homeless programs. I was asking honest questions, and you got butthurt and lashed out like a child. We already knew you were a troll and an asshole, no better than the people you complain about. This is just more evidence towards that.
I don't even care about your opinions anymore. I just like to watch you dig your hole deeper.

To be fair $100M is quite a difference from $6.5B.  it sets your argument off as something not well researched when you start out an order of magnitude off on numbers and confuse a whole city budget with a department sub budget.

That I will admit.
In my defense I was curious as to how much money was spent on the homeless in Seattle, and this was my first foray into tat specific topic. I am not a city planner, nor an expert on homelessness spending. That's why I made the post in the first place. It was more an exploration than an argument.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 21, 2021, 04:04:50 PM

Point out any mistakes I made besides getting the total city budget confused with the budget for the homeless programs. I was asking honest questions, and you got butthurt and lashed out like a child. We already knew you were a troll and an asshole, no better than the people you complain about. This is just more evidence towards that.
I don't even care about your opinions anymore. I just like to watch you dig your hole deeper.
HappyDaze's first reply to you pointed out a lot of things that were included in that xB$ total that didn't belong, in another post specifically told you where to look for the real number, and then in a later post provided the actual numbers. HD does troll, but not in this case. It wasn't particularly polite, but neither is your post.

Happydaze has a history of self-admitted trolling, and I escalated only after he did. (He started it! ;) ) I have no regrets about how I replied to him.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Bunch on February 21, 2021, 04:31:02 PM
Actually, the Seattle 2020 budget was $100M for homeless services out of a $6.5B total budget.

https://mynorthwest.com/1615977/seattle-city-council-budget-2020/
"This is the first time Seattle’s budget has cracked the $6 billion mark, and the first time it’s ever included more than $100 million for homeless services."

$100M/11751 homeless persons = $8510/homeless person
Ratman_tf prefers to stick with alternative facts for his proofs.

Wow. You didn't even let me reply before assigning an idea to me that I didn't even say. It's like you're arguing in bad faith to try and get at people instead of trying to discuss an issue. Good job, dickhead. Why didn't you point this out in your first reply? Is it possible you didn't realize it as well?

For everyone else, I stand corrected. I'll happily admit an error as long as it's being pointed out in good faith.
I told you where to look for the real numbers in my first reply to you. You just doubled down with your bullshit reading and "math" with made up numbers. You're also the one that tried to play the "do you hate the homeless" shit, so don't try to play the victim now motherfucker. Just eat your shame and let it go, because you shit the bed on this one.

Sweetheart, you're the one with a chip on your shoulder and have admitted you're here to troll people, and came at me with your bitterness in your first reply, so don't get comfortable on your high horse.

I asked a question, and even asked if I was getting it right, in the very first post. I don't pretend to know everything and ask when I'm not sure. Thankfully, other posters picked up your slack and actually posted accurate numbers instead of a vague, "Go read this 800 page budget".
I posted accurate numbers before they jumped in, but you're the dumbfucker that tried to work a math problem with numbers you didn't even understand.

As for trolling, it's not really trolling when I'm on-topic and providing accurate commentary even if I revel in pointing out your fuck up along the way. But if it makes your butthurt more bearable for you, go ahead and deluxe yourself firther.

Point out any mistakes I made besides getting the total city budget confused with the budget for the homeless programs. I was asking honest questions, and you got butthurt and lashed out like a child. We already knew you were a troll and an asshole, no better than the people you complain about. This is just more evidence towards that.
I don't even care about your opinions anymore. I just like to watch you dig your hole deeper.

To be fair $100M is quite a difference from $6.5B.  it sets your argument off as something not well researched when you start out an order of magnitude off on numbers and confuse a whole city budget with a department sub budget.

That I will admit.
In my defense I was curious as to how much money was spent on the homeless in Seattle, and this was my first foray into tat specific topic. I am not a city planner, nor an expert on homelessness spending. That's why I made the post in the first place. It was more an exploration than an argument.

Delving into the city budget isn't as straight forward as I would have thought.  I wouldn't say it's hard but I was sort of expecting a search for city budget by year to bring up a simple chart of the total.  That wasn't the case for me. Beyond the last year or two it actually took delving into the details of the city budget to even get an annual spend. 
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on February 21, 2021, 04:43:59 PM

Point out any mistakes I made besides getting the total city budget confused with the budget for the homeless programs. I was asking honest questions, and you got butthurt and lashed out like a child. We already knew you were a troll and an asshole, no better than the people you complain about. This is just more evidence towards that.
I don't even care about your opinions anymore. I just like to watch you dig your hole deeper.
HappyDaze's first reply to you pointed out a lot of things that were included in that xB$ total that didn't belong, in another post specifically told you where to look for the real number, and then in a later post provided the actual numbers. HD does troll, but not in this case. It wasn't particularly polite, but neither is your post.

Happydaze has a history of self-admitted trolling, and I escalated only after he did. (He started it! ;) ) I have no regrets about how I replied to him.
I wouldn't ask you to regret how you replied (I enjoyed watching you squirm), but your "exploration" was laughably half-assed, and that is what you should regret about this.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 21, 2021, 05:41:52 PM

Point out any mistakes I made besides getting the total city budget confused with the budget for the homeless programs. I was asking honest questions, and you got butthurt and lashed out like a child. We already knew you were a troll and an asshole, no better than the people you complain about. This is just more evidence towards that.
I don't even care about your opinions anymore. I just like to watch you dig your hole deeper.
HappyDaze's first reply to you pointed out a lot of things that were included in that xB$ total that didn't belong, in another post specifically told you where to look for the real number, and then in a later post provided the actual numbers. HD does troll, but not in this case. It wasn't particularly polite, but neither is your post.

Happydaze has a history of self-admitted trolling, and I escalated only after he did. (He started it! ;) ) I have no regrets about how I replied to him.
I wouldn't ask you to regret how you replied (I enjoyed watching you squirm), but your "exploration" was laughably half-assed, and that is what you should regret about this.

I don't. I'd rather ask questions and get productive answers than be a spiteful little goblin man snapping at people on a message board for whatever the fuck hoarded up slights you've got floating around in your dome.

If anything, I feel a bit bad that I let you drag another thread into being about you and your trolling. But only a bit.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Shasarak on February 21, 2021, 05:50:08 PM
If anything, I feel a bit bad that I let you drag another thread into being about you and your trolling. But only a bit.

Dont feel bad Ratman.  This is the entertainment!
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 21, 2021, 05:55:03 PM
And I assure, you any "squirming" was only a product of Happydaze's fevered imaginations. ;)
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on February 21, 2021, 07:06:01 PM
And I assure, you any "squirming" was only a product of Happydaze's fevered imaginations. ;)
And the squirming continues!

You really should just let it drop, but don't take my advice...
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 21, 2021, 07:35:45 PM
And I assure, you any "squirming" was only a product of Happydaze's fevered imaginations. ;)
And the squirming continues!

You really should just let it drop, but don't take my advice...

Advice from a troll? I think not.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/UT3Q85IvtDs/maxresdefault.jpg)
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on February 22, 2021, 05:54:07 AM
And I assure, you any "squirming" was only a product of Happydaze's fevered imaginations. ;)
And the squirming continues!

You really should just let it drop, but don't take my advice...

Advice from a troll? I think not.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/UT3Q85IvtDs/maxresdefault.jpg)
Yes, by all means pity those that actually read and understood the sources you provided...when you obviously failed at one or both of those things.

Nice meme though; I do enjoy Toy Story, so thank you for that.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 22, 2021, 05:08:50 PM
And I assure, you any "squirming" was only a product of Happydaze's fevered imaginations. ;)
And the squirming continues!

You really should just let it drop, but don't take my advice...

Advice from a troll? I think not.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/UT3Q85IvtDs/maxresdefault.jpg)
Yes, by all means pity those that actually read and understood the sources you provided...when you obviously failed at one or both of those things.

The failure is all yours. I acknowledged the error when it was pointed out, and dropped the idea when the accurate budget was posted.

You, on the other hand, leapt to personal insults and clung to the original error, even to the point of trying to invent opinions that I never stated, in some sad attempt to bolster your trolling attempt. You have been intentionally disingenuous and it illustrates that you aren't participating in the discussion in good faith.

Quote
Nice meme though; I do enjoy Toy Story, so thank you for that.

You're welcome.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on February 23, 2021, 04:46:50 AM
And I assure, you any "squirming" was only a product of Happydaze's fevered imaginations. ;)
And the squirming continues!

You really should just let it drop, but don't take my advice...

Advice from a troll? I think not.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/UT3Q85IvtDs/maxresdefault.jpg)
Yes, by all means pity those that actually read and understood the sources you provided...when you obviously failed at one or both of those things.

The failure is all yours. I acknowledged the error when it was pointed out, and dropped the idea when the accurate budget was posted.

You, on the other hand, leapt to personal insults and clung to the original error, even to the point of trying to invent opinions that I never stated, in some sad attempt to bolster your trolling attempt. You have been intentionally disingenuous and it illustrates that you aren't participating in the discussion in good faith.

Quote
Nice meme though; I do enjoy Toy Story, so thank you for that.

You're welcome.
Now Ratman_tf has returned to his alternative facts--this time to argue that the guy that gave accurate information is "intentionally disingenuous" and not "participating in the discussion in good faith" all because I threw in some personal insults. He doesn't realize that I gave him the help he asked for (before others did) just because a put a few barbs in it. Others--in particular Pat--pointed this out, but he can't accept these facts and has to find alternatives because the reality is...just..too much for him to take. Does anybody have an emotional support animal for the little guy?
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 23, 2021, 04:01:21 PM
And I assure, you any "squirming" was only a product of Happydaze's fevered imaginations. ;)
And the squirming continues!

You really should just let it drop, but don't take my advice...

Advice from a troll? I think not.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/UT3Q85IvtDs/maxresdefault.jpg)
Yes, by all means pity those that actually read and understood the sources you provided...when you obviously failed at one or both of those things.

The failure is all yours. I acknowledged the error when it was pointed out, and dropped the idea when the accurate budget was posted.

You, on the other hand, leapt to personal insults and clung to the original error, even to the point of trying to invent opinions that I never stated, in some sad attempt to bolster your trolling attempt. You have been intentionally disingenuous and it illustrates that you aren't participating in the discussion in good faith.

Quote
Nice meme though; I do enjoy Toy Story, so thank you for that.

You're welcome.
Now Ratman_tf has returned to his alternative facts--this time to argue that the guy that gave accurate information is "intentionally disingenuous" and not "participating in the discussion in good faith" all because I threw in some personal insults. He doesn't realize that I gave him the help he asked for (before others did) just because a put a few barbs in it. Others--in particular Pat--pointed this out, but he can't accept these facts and has to find alternatives because the reality is...just..too much for him to take. Does anybody have an emotional support animal for the little guy?

You still ranting?  ;D

I pointed out your disingenousness, it's right here in the thread for all to see where you tried to make up shit and now that you've been called out on it, you double down on being a jackass.

And your barbs were weaksauce. Typical Happydaze trolling nonsense. I only pointed it out when Pat said neither of us was "being very polite", and I pointed out that you were the one who went there first. I would have been happy to leave the attitude out, but that's what you're here for isn't it? To bitch and argue, and you don't give two shits about accuracy.

And now you want to keep arguing about it instead of the homeless situation. Because it's an agrument, and that's what you're here for.

Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on February 23, 2021, 05:01:18 PM
And I assure, you any "squirming" was only a product of Happydaze's fevered imaginations. ;)
And the squirming continues!

You really should just let it drop, but don't take my advice...

Advice from a troll? I think not.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/UT3Q85IvtDs/maxresdefault.jpg)
Yes, by all means pity those that actually read and understood the sources you provided...when you obviously failed at one or both of those things.

The failure is all yours. I acknowledged the error when it was pointed out, and dropped the idea when the accurate budget was posted.

You, on the other hand, leapt to personal insults and clung to the original error, even to the point of trying to invent opinions that I never stated, in some sad attempt to bolster your trolling attempt. You have been intentionally disingenuous and it illustrates that you aren't participating in the discussion in good faith.

Quote
Nice meme though; I do enjoy Toy Story, so thank you for that.

You're welcome.
Now Ratman_tf has returned to his alternative facts--this time to argue that the guy that gave accurate information is "intentionally disingenuous" and not "participating in the discussion in good faith" all because I threw in some personal insults. He doesn't realize that I gave him the help he asked for (before others did) just because a put a few barbs in it. Others--in particular Pat--pointed this out, but he can't accept these facts and has to find alternatives because the reality is...just..too much for him to take. Does anybody have an emotional support animal for the little guy?

You still ranting?  ;D

I pointed out your disingenousness, it's right here in the thread for all to see where you tried to make up shit and now that you've been called out on it, you double down on being a jackass.

And your barbs were weaksauce. Typical Happydaze trolling nonsense. I only pointed it out when Pat said neither of us was "being very polite", and I pointed out that you were the one who went there first. I would have been happy to leave the attitude out, but that's what you're here for isn't it? To bitch and argue, and you don't give two shits about accuracy.

And now you want to keep arguing about it instead of the homeless situation. Because it's an agrument, and that's what you're here for.
What "shit" did I make up? Please, be specific.

And as for not giving "two shits about accuracy," I'm the one that pointed you toward the accurate information and then even went so far as to give you direct links to it since your ability to do even basic research seemed so limited.

So, again, what "shit" did I make up? Please, be specific.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Bunch on February 23, 2021, 06:14:56 PM
On topic, the central problem seems to me to be that people are much more mobile than housing.  I live near Seattle. For decades our population grew at a predictable rate.  Suddenly everyone and their brother wanted to move here.  So naturally prices go up.  Add a NIMBY SFH baseline to housing and you have a problem that at a minimum takes years to correct.  Then add a city council that thinks development/business is eval and you have a recipe for disaster which is what Seattle looks like these days.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Shasarak on February 23, 2021, 06:35:27 PM
What "shit" did I make up? Please, be specific.

(https://miro.medium.com/max/500/1*99bWia7qEe5JgBazVn6PZA.jpeg)
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: jhkim on February 23, 2021, 08:28:09 PM
Point out any mistakes I made besides getting the total city budget confused with the budget for the homeless programs. I was asking honest questions, and you got butthurt and lashed out like a child. We already knew you were a troll and an asshole, no better than the people you complain about. This is just more evidence towards that.
I don't even care about your opinions anymore. I just like to watch you dig your hole deeper.

HappyDaze's first reply to you pointed out a lot of things that were included in that xB$ total that didn't belong, in another post specifically told you where to look for the real number, and then in a later post provided the actual numbers. HD does troll, but not in this case. It wasn't particularly polite, but neither is your post.

I agree with Pat here. The conversation here has devolved into trading insults rather than discussing the issues. Regarding the issue of cost of homeless... Currently in Seattle, the number I heard was,

$100M/11751 homeless persons = $8510/homeless person

I'm curious about how much that is compared to other programs. For example, in Houston, there was a $58 million program that aimed to end chronic homelessness - but Houston has a homeless population only one-third the size.

https://communityimpact.com/houston/cy-fair/government/2020/06/30/updated-harris-county-houston-commit-58-million-to-program-that-could-functionally-end-chronic-homelessness-in-the-county/

$58M / 3938 homeless persons = $14,728 per homeless person

Maybe the Houston program is much better -- but the cost is also greater per homeless person. Now, Houston has a lower homeless population per capita than Seattle. On the other hand, homeless population interacts with prison population. If a city effectively makes being homeless illegal, then there is a lower homeless population but a higher prison population.

Texas has nearly double the prison population per capita as Washington, and the cost of a prisoner averages $33,000 per capita in the U.S. So that's not a great tradeoff economically.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 24, 2021, 12:24:22 PM
What "shit" did I make up? Please, be specific.

And as for not giving "two shits about accuracy," I'm the one that pointed you toward the accurate information and then even went so far as to give you direct links to it since your ability to do even basic research seemed so limited.

So, again, what "shit" did I make up? Please, be specific.

You still obsessing over moi? I'd be flattered if you weren't a psycho.

https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/what-s-to-be-done-about-homelessness/msg1163902/#msg1163902

I did not, "Stick with alternative facts", like you claimed. I do not tolerate having words put in my mouth, or ideas assigned to me that I do not hold.
Back at you. Find me one instance where I "Stuck with the alternative facts".
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on February 24, 2021, 02:18:53 PM
What "shit" did I make up? Please, be specific.

And as for not giving "two shits about accuracy," I'm the one that pointed you toward the accurate information and then even went so far as to give you direct links to it since your ability to do even basic research seemed so limited.

So, again, what "shit" did I make up? Please, be specific.

You still obsessing over moi? I'd be flattered if you weren't a psycho.

https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/what-s-to-be-done-about-homelessness/msg1163902/#msg1163902

I did not, "Stick with alternative facts", like you claimed. I do not tolerate having words put in my mouth, or ideas assigned to me that I do not hold.
Back at you. Find me one instance where I "Stuck with the alternative facts".
Reply #90. The one where I suggested you look at the real budget and you instead insisted that you had found a solution with your bullshit numbers (hint: those were your alternative facts that you were clinging to).
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 27, 2021, 04:15:08 PM
What "shit" did I make up? Please, be specific.

And as for not giving "two shits about accuracy," I'm the one that pointed you toward the accurate information and then even went so far as to give you direct links to it since your ability to do even basic research seemed so limited.

So, again, what "shit" did I make up? Please, be specific.

You still obsessing over moi? I'd be flattered if you weren't a psycho.

https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/what-s-to-be-done-about-homelessness/msg1163902/#msg1163902

I did not, "Stick with alternative facts", like you claimed. I do not tolerate having words put in my mouth, or ideas assigned to me that I do not hold.
Back at you. Find me one instance where I "Stuck with the alternative facts".
Reply #90. The one where I suggested you look at the real budget and you instead insisted that you had found a solution with your bullshit numbers (hint: those were your alternative facts that you were clinging to).

Reply #93. dkabq corrects me on the actual number. I aknowledge this in post #96.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on February 27, 2021, 04:44:01 PM
What "shit" did I make up? Please, be specific.

And as for not giving "two shits about accuracy," I'm the one that pointed you toward the accurate information and then even went so far as to give you direct links to it since your ability to do even basic research seemed so limited.

So, again, what "shit" did I make up? Please, be specific.

You still obsessing over moi? I'd be flattered if you weren't a psycho.

https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/what-s-to-be-done-about-homelessness/msg1163902/#msg1163902

I did not, "Stick with alternative facts", like you claimed. I do not tolerate having words put in my mouth, or ideas assigned to me that I do not hold.
Back at you. Find me one instance where I "Stuck with the alternative facts".
Reply #90. The one where I suggested you look at the real budget and you instead insisted that you had found a solution with your bullshit numbers (hint: those were your alternative facts that you were clinging to).

Reply #93. dkabq corrects me on the actual number. I aknowledge this in post #96.
You missed my more detailed links in Reply #91. You're really bad at this.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on February 28, 2021, 06:21:17 PM
What "shit" did I make up? Please, be specific.

And as for not giving "two shits about accuracy," I'm the one that pointed you toward the accurate information and then even went so far as to give you direct links to it since your ability to do even basic research seemed so limited.

So, again, what "shit" did I make up? Please, be specific.

You still obsessing over moi? I'd be flattered if you weren't a psycho.

https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/what-s-to-be-done-about-homelessness/msg1163902/#msg1163902

I did not, "Stick with alternative facts", like you claimed. I do not tolerate having words put in my mouth, or ideas assigned to me that I do not hold.
Back at you. Find me one instance where I "Stuck with the alternative facts".
Reply #90. The one where I suggested you look at the real budget and you instead insisted that you had found a solution with your bullshit numbers (hint: those were your alternative facts that you were clinging to).

Reply #93. dkabq corrects me on the actual number. I aknowledge this in post #96.
You missed my more detailed links in Reply #91. You're really bad at this.

I didn't miss them. I didn't want to engage with a self-declared troll. I only seriously engaged when you started assigning thoughts to me that I didn't say. And this whole drawn out troll is evidence that I should have ignored you then.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on March 01, 2021, 02:37:32 AM
What "shit" did I make up? Please, be specific.

And as for not giving "two shits about accuracy," I'm the one that pointed you toward the accurate information and then even went so far as to give you direct links to it since your ability to do even basic research seemed so limited.

So, again, what "shit" did I make up? Please, be specific.

You still obsessing over moi? I'd be flattered if you weren't a psycho.

https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/what-s-to-be-done-about-homelessness/msg1163902/#msg1163902

I did not, "Stick with alternative facts", like you claimed. I do not tolerate having words put in my mouth, or ideas assigned to me that I do not hold.
Back at you. Find me one instance where I "Stuck with the alternative facts".
Reply #90. The one where I suggested you look at the real budget and you instead insisted that you had found a solution with your bullshit numbers (hint: those were your alternative facts that you were clinging to).

Reply #93. dkabq corrects me on the actual number. I aknowledge this in post #96.
You missed my more detailed links in Reply #91. You're really bad at this.

I didn't miss them. I didn't want to engage with a self-declared troll. I only seriously engaged when you started assigning thoughts to me that I didn't say. And this whole drawn out troll is evidence that I should have ignored you then.
OK, so you didn't miss the facts I presented, you just decided to ignore them and stick with your alternative facts. Now you've confirmed that the words I assigned to you then perfectly fit your behavior. You really should have quit when some people might have believed you didn't intentionally ignore fact for fiction.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: oggsmash on March 01, 2021, 07:34:41 AM
Greetings!

Well, fuck the "studies". My lived experience dealing with many homeless people first hand has demonstrated to me that a distinct majority of homeless people are very much drug and alcohol addicts. Not all of them, certainly, but a majority. Mentally ill people make up a large component of the homeless population as well.

Capable, mature, functioning, and responsible people typically don't become homeless, and when they do, they don't remain homeless for long.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
As usual, SHARK is playing his role as a bombastic dumbass to the fullest.

If we want to go with lived experiences,  I can say that I've seen many homeless individuals spend time in mental health centers when the temperature drops. Yes, they are "crazy" enough to play the system for a warm, dry place to sleep and hot meals for a few days because the system holds them for 72h if they claim suicidal ideation.

  So you are saying a bunch of the ones claiming mental disorders are lying grifters who just do not want to work and know that society loves to take care of a victim?  That I can believe.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ratman_tf on March 01, 2021, 11:54:55 AM
(https://i.imgflip.com/34fhiz.jpg)

I think I've helped you troll the thread for long enough.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on March 01, 2021, 03:05:48 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/34fhiz.jpg)

I think I've helped you troll the thread for long enough.
I think everyone has seen how you flounder and thrash when you're called on for sticking with alternative facts (in this case, also known as bullshit numbers and nonsense), but it's hilarious to see you keep twisting on the hook. You really should have walked away after I pointed out you were wading in the shit of alternative facts, but you had to show us all that you could touch bottom in the deep end of it. All because you just can't let it go when the one that was right was me. For you, it's obviously personal.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Visitor Q on March 06, 2021, 05:53:04 PM
Coming from a UK perspective here.

I spent about 6 years working in different legal advice and housing law jobs. Many of the clients were homeless.  That was about 7 years ago.  Also until COVID I volunteerd at a local soup kitchen run by a Catholic Church and have gotten to know a few of the homeless people in the local area.

In the UK you have two types of homeless.  Legally homeless and Street Homeless.  Legally homeless means you meet the legal definition of homeless because you don't have a legal place to stay.  For example if you had been kicked out of your house and were crashing at a friends for two weeks you would be legally homeless.  Street homeless isn't strictly an official term but is often used to describe those sleeping rough on the streets.

Legally homeless is such a wide spectrum of people and circumstances it's difficult to comment but improving access to jobs and affordable housing would have a massive impact.

With street homeless I would say a majority have mental health issues including substance abuse and/or very limited education possibly caused by learning difficulties.  About 90% are men (this is an official figure not my estimate).  Probably about 25% are refugees or asylum seekers.

Over the past few years the number of Street homeless has fallen.  The initiatives that seemed to have worked appear to be:

Directing money towards very focused charities which coordinate with local politicans.  In the UK the main one is Shelter.  This provides both the legal and political impetus but also democratic oversight to ensure funds are being spent correctly.  Most of the various Christian Churches provide quite a lot of funding as well.  The charities themselves provide hostels and set standards (hygene and safety) for hostels to encourage rough sleepers to go there.  The hostels then act as community outreach for drug support, employment, accessing benefits etc.

Local Authorities legally being required to identify vulnerable children particularly in their late teens who are with parents or other adults (foster care etc) but are shortly going to be homeless.

Public awareness.  This includes awareness of mental health issues so people get help earlier. 

Just recongising that homelessness is an issue that could potentially effect anyone.  This might seem like a soft solution and by itself it is, but there is a massive assumption that the government will provide a house to anyone and so homeless people are somehow there by choice.  By increasing awareness that this isn't the case it does make people a little more aware that actually someone they know might need some help because things can spiral out of control very quickly.

Also I get the impression that public awareness of the number of empty houses compared to rough sleepers has shamed the government a little bit.

I think more up to date and regular stats on the numbers of rough sleepers and registered legally homeless would also provide a political impetus.

It is a really difficult problem and I don't think there's an easy solution.  Certainly the UK hasn't completly solved it.  There's quite a lot of homeless people in my area even though it is a pretty good area of London.  Throwing money at the solution would definitely help but I would suggest that without focused coordination and leadership you probably won't be spending your £ (or $) as efficiently as you'd like.

Hopefully not opening a can of worms here but I get the impression that the UK political system is a little bit more direct in terms of being able to directly address a social problem like this.  For example the Prime Minister is also a Member of Parliment for a particular constituency, meaning homelessness in that area is his individual problem.




 






 

 
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: KingCheops on March 07, 2021, 12:15:41 PM
Thanks for the interesting experience/perspective.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on April 16, 2021, 07:50:28 PM
I think that's just one of the many serious problems COVID-19 generated in a ton of fields like mental health, depression, anxiety, uncertainty, stress. I am very concerned about the end results of this pandemic and the negative effects it will have in the current and next generations, economic impact, etc. It's very saddening to see all this mess and being able to do so little. I mean, for starters we can't even coordinate whether or not to wear masks, there's no communication, it's awful. Even trying to eat in a restaurant is a whole process that makes you want to just stay home. But even staying home can feel super lame at times. The few gatherings felt good, you miss your friends and all but always concerned if they might have the virus or not. Just seems like everyone is clueless and running around in circles hoping the vaccine works. But unfortunately it's the world we live in at this moment. Better times will come so everyone hang in there, I'm optimistic by the end of 2021 we will have made some progress towards some normalcy. And hopefully the people that got hit the hardest are able to recover from this.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Koltar on April 17, 2021, 03:44:07 PM
For years I have had a solution to the Homelessness problem.

This idea would work in most cities in America - Almost every major city has too many abandoned and empty buildings. It is an information management problem - we just need to match up homeless folks with empty homes and buildings that can be used as residences.
That includes all the shyscrapers or tall building that are near 40 to 5-% 'empty' - people could live on those floors.
- Ed C.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Pat on April 17, 2021, 04:46:27 PM
That doesn't work. First of all, you don't have to stuff people in empty office buildings. There are more empty homes than homeless people. But more importantly, they've tried giving homeless people homes. It doesn't work. Most of the people who are homeless are homeless because they nonfunctional in one way or another. That's why most of the give the homeless a house programs focus on the newly homeless, because there's a narrow window in there where there's actually a chance of catching someone in a bad place and helping them recover. But the long term homeless require more intensive care. If you want to give them a place to live, it will have to be an institution of some kind.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: David Johansen on April 18, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
The problem I see with institutions where people have a room and there's a cafeteria is that they create a slum and crime zone around them but I wonder if giving the people work where they can make a little money would mitigate that possibly even paying them to clean up litter and paint fences.  Not a full time job or anything with a schedule, just show up and here's a rake type stuff and not a lot of money because giving a lump sum is asking for problems.

I guess labor laws might work against getting people off the street by making it impossible to give them work at a level that they can manage.

Of course there's a range of functionality to consider but I think if you're giving people with addictions money you have to accept that they'll buy drugs with it.  The question becomes whether you prefer they break into your house and steal your TV or rake your yard and paint your fence to get their drug money.

It's probably been tried and failed somewhere and someone here can probably tell me where and why.  Not to worry it's constructive.  You have to examine the failures to find functional solutions.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Koltar on April 18, 2021, 11:01:20 PM
David J,

In my idea if a homeless person had construction or repair skills - they would be paid for repair work on the building they lived in -OR- that would be applied to eventually owning the abandoned house or building.

- Ed C
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: David Johansen on April 18, 2021, 11:27:17 PM
Part of the problem is that those aren't skills kids grow up with anymore.  I've occasionally thought that a drop in school might work better than a drop in center.  It gives people a place to go but it also helps them to grow.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Mjollnir on May 15, 2021, 08:06:54 AM
Reopen state mental hospitals and institutionalize drug addicts, crazy people, and drug addicted crazy people.

Deport every illegal alien, including the "ones who were brought here through no fault of their own", completly end legal immigration, this will drive down the price of housing by greatly reducing the demand.

Homelessness ended.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Shasarak on May 15, 2021, 08:17:53 AM
Has anyone considered forcing the homeless to move into the richer areas of town?

I am sure that would stimulate people to solve the homeless problem a lot faster if there are hoards of roaming homeless within their walled conclaves.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Bunch on May 15, 2021, 11:12:30 AM
 The rich would leave for a city that wanted them instead of the one that didn't.  I live in a wealthy city outside Seattle and that's exactly what is happening. 
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: dkabq on May 15, 2021, 11:21:46 AM
The rich would leave for a city that wanted them instead of the one that didn't.  I live in a wealthy city outside Seattle and that's exactly what is happening.

Indeed. The power of NIMBY rises exponentially with wealth.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Bunch on May 15, 2021, 12:57:04 PM
The rich would leave for a city that wanted them instead of the one that didn't.  I live in a wealthy city outside Seattle and that's exactly what is happening.

Indeed. The power of NIMBY rises exponentially with wealth.
The ability to NIMBY rises with wealth. The desire stays about constant in my experience.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Zelen on May 15, 2021, 12:59:50 PM
Reopen state mental hospitals and institutionalize drug addicts, crazy people, and drug addicted crazy people.

Deport every illegal alien, including the "ones who were brought here through no fault of their own", completly end legal immigration, this will drive down the price of housing by greatly reducing the demand.

Homelessness ended.

This is actually the solution. One of my relations is an older psychologist with experience before and after this time period. According to him the general trend of de-institutionalization was one of the worst decisions relevant to his field. Worse for people with genuine mental illness, worse for society. Now all of those people are out there, blaming other people for their own internal disorders and lack of ability to fit into normal society, organizing mobs to hurt others.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: This Guy on May 15, 2021, 01:09:08 PM
the only problem with our society is crazy people so just off em
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Mjollnir on May 16, 2021, 05:29:34 AM
the only problem with our society is crazy people so just off em

The fact that people like you are allowed to vote (assuming you're not a felon, big assumption I know), highlights the flaws of universal suffrage. Frankly, sociopaths like you are exactly the type of people who should be locked away for the good of society.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 16, 2021, 08:56:22 AM
the only problem with our society is crazy people so just off em

The fact that people like you are allowed to vote (assuming you're not a felon, big assumption I know), highlights the flaws of universal suffrage. Frankly, sociopaths like you are exactly the type of people who should be locked away for the good of society.
Don't feed the troll. Just block his sorry ass and move on.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on May 16, 2021, 10:45:12 AM
Reopen state mental hospitals and institutionalize drug addicts, crazy people, and drug addicted crazy people.

Deport every illegal alien, including the "ones who were brought here through no fault of their own", completly end legal immigration, this will drive down the price of housing by greatly reducing the demand.

Homelessness ended.
End legal immigration? We need immigration to prop up our social security and keep our population growing here in the USA.

I’d sooner support the USA annexing the hemisphere. All that land can be used to build new housing and cities and factories and whatnot. We can reduce price by increasing supply.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Pat on May 16, 2021, 11:12:00 AM
Here's a mildly interesting article on how they reduced homelessness in New Orleans after Katrina
https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2019/02/19/new-orleans-reducing-homeless-hurricane-katrina
A caveat: The article doesn't play it up, but a lot of these people were homeless because of Katrina, not because of the mental health and social issues, so it probably can't be extrapolated to solve long term homelesnesss in general. But it is more evidence that catching people who have just become homeless is fairly effective.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: This Guy on May 16, 2021, 12:34:56 PM
the only problem with our society is crazy people so just off em

The fact that people like you are allowed to vote (assuming you're not a felon, big assumption I know), highlights the flaws of universal suffrage. Frankly, sociopaths like you are exactly the type of people who should be locked away for the good of society.


I know it sucks. I even voted for the people who will actively make things worse and everything
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on May 16, 2021, 12:52:51 PM
Here's a mildly interesting article on how they reduced homelessness in New Orleans after Katrina
https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2019/02/19/new-orleans-reducing-homeless-hurricane-katrina
A caveat: The article doesn't play it up, but a lot of these people were homeless because of Katrina, not because of the mental health and social issues, so it probably can't be extrapolated to solve long term homelesnesss in general. But it is more evidence that catching people who have just become homeless is fairly effective.
So perhaps the answer is more natural disasters? It worked as a staple of Syfy's films for a time...
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: This Guy on May 16, 2021, 12:57:48 PM
Here's a mildly interesting article on how they reduced homelessness in New Orleans after Katrina
https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2019/02/19/new-orleans-reducing-homeless-hurricane-katrina
A caveat: The article doesn't play it up, but a lot of these people were homeless because of Katrina, not because of the mental health and social issues, so it probably can't be extrapolated to solve long term homelesnesss in general. But it is more evidence that catching people who have just become homeless is fairly effective.
So perhaps the answer is more natural disasters? It worked as a staple of Syfy's films for a time...

Well at least we're on track to implement that policy whether we like it or not. Nature is healing and shit.

but also it sounds like the shock effect on the psyche a natural disaster can cause is a big motivator so how do we implement that without needing a hurricane
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on May 16, 2021, 01:16:45 PM
Here's a mildly interesting article on how they reduced homelessness in New Orleans after Katrina
https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2019/02/19/new-orleans-reducing-homeless-hurricane-katrina
A caveat: The article doesn't play it up, but a lot of these people were homeless because of Katrina, not because of the mental health and social issues, so it probably can't be extrapolated to solve long term homelesnesss in general. But it is more evidence that catching people who have just become homeless is fairly effective.
So perhaps the answer is more natural disasters? It worked as a staple of Syfy's films for a time...

Well at least we're on track to implement that policy whether we like it or not. Nature is healing and shit.

but also it sounds like the shock effect on the psyche a natural disaster can cause is a big motivator so how do we implement that without needing a hurricane
With the right arms dealer, that question is moot.
(https://static0.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Cobra-Weather-Dominator-Destro.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=740&h=370&dpr=1.5)
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: This Guy on May 16, 2021, 01:34:52 PM
hell yeah let's put those red lasers to use
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: HappyDaze on May 16, 2021, 05:23:47 PM
hell yeah let's put those red lasers to use
I was going for the Weather Dominator here.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: This Guy on May 16, 2021, 05:32:19 PM
hell yeah let's put those red lasers to use
I was going for the Weather Dominator here.

I shame myself by my lack of Joe lore, your idea works better.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Shasarak on October 20, 2021, 05:35:22 PM
You remember yesterday when America had no ideas what to do with the homeless drug addicts in their biggest richest cities?

Well turns out that the Taliban have an idea about what to do:

(https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/AP21279613456068.jpg)

https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2021/10/11/photos-kabul-afghanistan-taliban-drugs-underworld-heroin

Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: Zelen on October 20, 2021, 08:05:00 PM
The Taliban legitimately care more about their people than the US regime.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: RandyB on October 20, 2021, 08:24:54 PM
The Taliban legitimately care more about their people than the US regime.

Key phrase: "their people". They care about their own, as they should.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: dkabq on October 21, 2021, 08:41:27 PM
Yeah, that works till you run out of other people's money.

Though with the newly anointed Pederast In Chief, I expect some of these big-spender blue states will be coming hat in hand to the federal government for bailouts. Sleepy Joe already plans, supposedly, to remove the SALT (state and local tax) cap on federal tax deductions, which means once again states with lower taxes will be propping up the ones with higher.

From what I read, red states with lower taxes tend to be *more* dependent on federal money. Blue states tend to have higher GDP per capita, and thus bring in more federal tax money more than federal aid. In the Wallethub study below, for example, the most dependent were New Mexico, Kentucky, and Mississippi - while the least dependent were Kansas, New Jersey, and Delaware.

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700

https://taxfoundation.org/states-rely-most-federal-aid/

https://taxfoundation.org/federal-spending-received-dollar-taxes-paid-state-2005/

If you dispute these, do you have an another source that shows different results, where blue states are more federally dependent?

New Mexico hasn't been a red state for decades.
https://www.270towin.com/states/New_Mexico
https://ballotpedia.org/Party_control_of_New_Mexico_state_government
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mayors_of_Albuquerque

Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: David Johansen on October 21, 2021, 08:53:16 PM
I've got a thought on making "housing first" work without dropping the whole problem on any one neighborhood.

Put houses with six to eight bedrooms at least half a mile from each other, pay back half the rent over the course of the month if chores are done and the house passes muster.  The rooms have a bed, a closet and a desk.  Each house has a kitchen, I don't know how to get around that, delivering meals would cost more.

The "rent" would probably have to come from government or charitable institutions.  I'm not sure whether it would be better to let people pick their housemates or not.  Probably as they'd just rearrange to suit themselves anyhow.

My area of town is near the homeless shelter and I think about the problem a lot.  Probably because the city keeps on dumping the problems in my neighborhood and making things worse.
Title: Re: What's to be done about homelessness?
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on October 22, 2021, 05:57:52 PM
Check out the video "Spanish Lake."