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Author Topic: WFRP, D20, and Ryan Dancey  (Read 2674 times)

RPGPundit

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WFRP, D20, and Ryan Dancey
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2006, 01:50:25 PM »
Quote from: Akrasia
Dancey claimed that many aspects of WFRP 2e were based on d20.  Most of the aspects he mentions in the review were not -- Dancey was wrong.

You and I must be remembering different reviews.  

Quote
Sure there were a few d20-isms introduced into the game (the 'full action' and 'half action' stuff during combat is the only thing that I can think of off the top of my head), but for the most part the 'd20-isms' in WFRP 2e were already present (in some form) in WFRP 1e.

What Ryan was saying was that the choice of emphasis, the overall structure and tone of the game, and many of the changes/alterations to 1e mechanics were clearly inspired by the lessons Pramas & co. had learnt from D20.

Quote
Also, Dancey gave the Bestiary 2 stars because it 'wasted' so much space describing popular perceptions of the creatures in the Old World (i.e. 'fluff').  Talk about not understanding the subject matter he's reviewing ... :rolleyes:

Hey, I'm a hardcore WFRP player, and I utterly and totally AGREE with him. Half the fucking bestiary is a waste of space!  

This is the typical behaviour of a group of people who, having been struck on the head repeatedly with "the enemy within" have come to believe that somehow WFRP is some kind of ultra-sophisticate pansy-asssed investigation-game, rather than the punk dwarf game of ultraviolence it really is.  

The part I loved, for example, was when some "real" fans of Warhammer pissed all over Dancey for suggesting that the Bestiary could have had treasure tables; telling him that WH was superior to D&D, that he doesn't understand the "true spirit" of Warhammer, and that Warhammer is not about that kind of "meaningless dungeon crawling", etc etc ad nauseum, right up until the moment I pointed out to these stupid fuckwits that 1E WFRP HAS FUCKING TREASURE TABLES, RIGHT THERE, IN THE BOOK.

So get over yourselves. WH is a different version of D&D. Its not fucking Renaissance limp-wristed World of Darkness.  Fuck that. Its a gorier, grittier, dirtier, filthier version of D&D... only more VIOLENT.

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WFRP, D20, and Ryan Dancey
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2006, 01:56:16 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
I doubt it. WH40K could have been the defining sci-fantasy RPG. It could have rocked the foundations of the gaming world. If it had been a single RPG.

As it is, the first of the three games will have big sales.  Then the people who bought it because it says WH40K will realize they've been sold less than 1/3rd of a roleplaying game, get pissed off, and that's the end of that.

If I was Mike Mearls I'd be having a small party right now, upon hearing of BI/Green Ronin's strategy for 40k; and breathing a huge sigh of relief.

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Time will tell which of us is right Pundit. The strategy depends hugely on the quality and utility of the first game and it's supplements, which puts a massive amount of pressure on its performance.

I still remain confident, not because of any affiliation (i'm not involved at all), but because there is the very real possibility here of cross-over sales between the 40k wargame and the RPG which i don't think existed to anywhere near the same degree with WFRP.

For that to reach its full potential, GW shops will have to bite the bullet and stock it in their stores, however.

We shall see what we shall see...

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WFRP, D20, and Ryan Dancey
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2006, 01:57:52 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit

So get over yourselves. WH is a different version of D&D. Its not fucking Renaissance limp-wristed World of Darkness.  Fuck that. Its a gorier, grittier, dirtier, filthier version of D&D... only more VIOLENT.
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The rest of what you said has a semblance of logic then you come along with a statment like this.  Warhammer is fucking Warhammer.  In the same way that Stormbringer is Stormbringer and Harn is Harn.  Making a fantasy game doesn't mean remaking D&D.  Different games, different play styles different pretty much everything.
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WFRP, D20, and Ryan Dancey
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2006, 02:31:45 PM »
Quote from: kryyst
The rest of what you said has a semblance of logic then you come along with a statment like this.  Warhammer is fucking Warhammer.  In the same way that Stormbringer is Stormbringer and Harn is Harn.  Making a fantasy game doesn't mean remaking D&D.  Different games, different play styles different pretty much everything.


My point is that its not in any way more "sophisticate" than D&D, nor is it a game that was specifically made in a way that was meant to discourage combat or dungeon crawling or any of those other things that pansy-assed enemy-within-brainwashed WFRP-swine of today seem to have gotten into their heads.  

I mean, the example from above is the most obvious sign: Warhammer fans trying to pretend that its a shocking idea for there to be a treasure table in the bestiary when the 1st edition HAD treasure tables! Its like they're trying to ignore the truth in order to create this fake delusional historical revision about warhammer being a game about being a renaissance-era tradesman or a camp follower or anything besides actual adventuring.  And especially  about.. "investigation"... whatever the fuck that means. Like in D&D you never investigate anything. Like in Warhammer everyone is Sherlock Fucking Holmes... Maybe I'm playing the game radically differently than the kids do these days, but in the Warhammer I know when you "investigate" something its usually to kill the crap out of it immediately after you successfully "investigate".

So my point is where the fuck are they coming from with this "holier than thou" attitude of "how dare Ryan Dancey compare us to that gutter game of D&D"??

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Akrasia

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WFRP, D20, and Ryan Dancey
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2006, 06:51:16 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
You and I must be remembering different reviews.  


Well, I'm remembering the one in which Dancey claimed that many aspects of the role-playing system of WFRP 2e were 'derivative' of d20/3e.  Those claims were largely bullshit.  Dancey got his facts wrong.  End of story.

Quote from: RPGPundit

... So get over yourselves. WH is a different version of D&D. Its not fucking Renaissance limp-wristed World of Darkness.  Fuck that. Its a gorier, grittier, dirtier, filthier version of D&D... only more VIOLENT...


I'm not sure who you're raging against here.  :confused:

I don't have a problem with D&D, and I personally dislike WoD (I've never even played or read a WoD game).

However, I don't think that WFRP is a 'version of D&D' anymore than, say, Runequest or Rolemaster is a 'version of D&D'.

Furthermore, WFRP is normally 'less violent' than D&D, in the sense that smart characters in WFRP will try to avoid combat as much as possible.  (What combat does occur will be much more severe -- perhaps that is what you meant by 'more violent'.)
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