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Author Topic: Wait, What Controversy about Pundit and Zak?  (Read 91895 times)

JamesV

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Wait, What Controversy about Pundit and Zak?
« Reply #240 on: July 10, 2014, 07:16:06 PM »
Not that Levi isn't doing a bad job of defending himself, but throwing out the content of a personal conversation is a jackass thing to to, Pundit.
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JamesV

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Wait, What Controversy about Pundit and Zak?
« Reply #241 on: July 10, 2014, 07:23:31 PM »
Quote from: Sacrosanct;767399
I joined there in 1999.  And when I hear "the wild west" days, it's usually in reference to Curt, Magic Pink, and Redredderreddest having free reign to call people motherfuckers.

I date back to around that time too, and that's not that far off the mark. The moderation was looser, so flame wars were more common, and while the mods and admins were often in the mix themselves, their positions were not so precious that posters couldn't give back what they received.

na few years later there was a huge blow-up when an open letter/petition was made to make RPGNet, and Tangency especially, an emotionally safe space. The people who advocated the strongest for that lost the debate, mainly because the Admins were mindful of allowing more open discourse, and many of letter's signees either left or were banned in the aftermath.

Looking back, that moment is very much a "lost the battle, but won the war" situation. Slowly but surely the moderation tightened, mainly to placate the very same group of posters.
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tenbones

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Wait, What Controversy about Pundit and Zak?
« Reply #242 on: July 10, 2014, 07:24:44 PM »
Quote from: Sacrosanct;767399
To be honest, and of course this is just my personal speculation, but I don't think this whole outrage bullshit is even about you or Zak.  The outrage didn't start until 5e was released.  You and Zak are just ammunition.  These are the same people who have said in the past that they will actively try to ruin 5e because they feel abandoned that 4e is no longer "the" D&D game.

If they were really outraged at you and Zak, they've had plenty of time to find this "evidence" they claimed they had.  And they've had plenty of time since it was announced you both were consultants on it.   So why wait until 5e is released?  Because they want it to fail.  Simple as that.

And that's....pretty sad actually.


This is what I've been thinking too. I think another thing is that once it was released - there were (and this is just my bullshit observation) a lot of people that were skeptics (like me) who were pleasantly surprised. I'm willing to bet there were a *lot* more in the TBP's end of the pool that felt the same.

tenbones

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Wait, What Controversy about Pundit and Zak?
« Reply #243 on: July 10, 2014, 07:30:33 PM »
Quote from: JamesV;767408
na few years later there was a huge blow-up when an open letter/petition was made to make RPGNet, and Tangency especially, an emotionally safe space. The people who advocated the strongest for that lost the debate, mainly because the Admins were mindful of allowing more open discourse, and many of letter's signees either left or were banned in the aftermath.

Looking back, that moment is very much a "lost the battle, but won the war" situation. Slowly but surely the moderation tightened, mainly to placate the very same group of posters.


An "emotional safe place"... is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. Clearly some people have never entertained the idea that passive-aggressives will demure emotional safety to fit whatever axegrinding they need to justify their own self-inflicted discomfort? Handing those people mod-privileges is literally letting the lunatics run the asylum.

The existence of so many banned people here - in what ironically is a generally pleasant forum - is proof of that. If we were really the problem *there* - this place should be burning to the ground. I mean how many people have been banned from RPGsite? Hell at TBP - they're handing out bannings for public spectacle.

"The Wild West" days of TBP have mutated into the "Mussolini-Sausage-Wank Era" currently reigning there.

Levi Kornelsen

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Wait, What Controversy about Pundit and Zak?
« Reply #244 on: July 10, 2014, 07:33:39 PM »
Quote from: JamesV;767405
Not that Levi isn't doing a bad job of defending himself, but throwing out the content of a personal conversation is a jackass thing to to, Pundit.


Eh, there was some expectation that we'd both talk a bit online about what we talked about in person, then.  That's not my beef.

The weird

Quote from: RPGPundit;766620
and got him to admit


quote-fishing and bending of my attempt at hospitality and "show the man a good time among awesome and even flirty people", into a means to score cheap and insulting points for no gain, though?

That was pretty much exactly where all my "friendly debate" feels evaporated.

DestroyYouAlot

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Wait, What Controversy about Pundit and Zak?
« Reply #245 on: July 10, 2014, 07:40:32 PM »
Quote from: Sacrosanct;767399
To be honest, and of course this is just my personal speculation, but I don't think this whole outrage bullshit is even about you or Zak.  The outrage didn't start until 5e was released.  You and Zak are just ammunition.  These are the same people who have said in the past that they will actively try to ruin 5e because they feel abandoned that 4e is no longer "the" D&D game.

If they were really outraged at you and Zak, they've had plenty of time to find this "evidence" they claimed they had.  And they've had plenty of time since it was announced you both were consultants on it.   So why wait until 5e is released?  Because they want it to fail.  Simple as that.

Worth. Pointing. Out.

Although, to be honest, I think it's both. This is definitely the excuse a LOT (i.e., whatever big purple's active userbase is minus a couple ten) of people have been looking for to be Morally Opposed to 5e (as opposed to just feeling jilted by their close personal friend Meaaaaaarls). That said, I think there's also this:

rpg.net's main goal seems to be convincing themselves (and whoever will go along with) that they have Important Opinions, and that they are tastemakers. People listen to us. We have game designers. (Of course every third idiot over there is a "game designer" and usually a "novelist" to boot - Kickstarter in the sig!) They have set up this polite fiction that they are listened to closely, and that being banned from there means you have been banned from Serious RPG Discussion.

And then some motherfucker has the gall to keep existing, writing, and publishing, and next thing you know My Close Personal Friend Mearls (you can tell he listens to me because I use his last name! We are familar!) taps them for a project. Imagine! Doesn' Meeeeeeeearls know that these people have been ousted from polite society?

And next thing you know, they have to poke their head out of the echo chamber, and the world is still chugging along without their say-so.


So now they're basically out to punish 5e for not respecting their banlist. If all it takes is to erode the credibility of actual accusations of actual transphobes, it's a small price to pay for revenge.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 07:41:25 PM by DestroyYouAlot »
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Wait, What Controversy about Pundit and Zak?
« Reply #246 on: July 10, 2014, 08:24:21 PM »
Quote from: Zak S;767397
Can somebody tell me what this "Wild West" period of RPGnet was like?



If you look back on its history, there was a time when a group of posters of the pseudo-activist variety made a public statement DEMANDING that rpgnet impose much stricter moderation in order to turn the site into an "emotionally safe environment".  

People laughed at them, and the mods at that time declared that rpgnet would never have a moderation policy whose goal it is to create an "emotionally safe environment" because that would not only be massively unpopular but it would be impossible to effectively moderate without going to extremes.  Note that at this time, their moderation was far from laissez faire, they were already much much stricter than theRPGsite is today.

So that's the time that the SJWs who now run rpgnet describe as the "wild west period".  They went on to get their revenge by imposing by subtlety and gradual infiltration what they had originally made the mistake of demanding outright.
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Brander

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Wait, What Controversy about Pundit and Zak?
« Reply #247 on: July 10, 2014, 08:39:00 PM »
Quote from: Marleycat;767314
Honestly not impressed with him given what I have seen what he been saying on G+. It's too bad because his rpg's seem pretty good.


I'm curious why what he wrote on G+ matters as to whether you get his RPGs?  I mean as long as the work itself isn't in any way offensive or something.  Unless of course you just mean it sucks to learn more about his personality and it doesn't impact your purchasing much.

I think GMS is often a jerk online and I'm certain we wouldn't agree on half of anything, but he's a damn good creator and I put money into Far West (no complaints from me on that point either) knowing this.  I also put money into FATE and I still don't care what Fred said on G+ as long as what he put in his books isn't toxic or stupid.  As for Zak, I love the whole gaming with pornstars thing (I've only ever gamed with strippers, with my wife(not a stripper) playing as well) but I know we wouldn't agree on half of anything either.  And Pundit, well, I really didn't know who he even was until I got here after getting fed up with the TBP echo chamber and looking for alternatives, but I like his straightforward approach from time to time (even when I disagree).

I'm not saying it's wrong to vote with your dollars, but for me it has to be pretty damned far out and I still mostly focus on the content, not the creator.
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Dana

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Wait, What Controversy about Pundit and Zak?
« Reply #248 on: July 10, 2014, 09:21:43 PM »
I'm not sure if the folks claiming harassment, death threats, and various kinds of -phobia are unaware that it can be difficult to conclusively connect the dots on these things or if they ARE aware and are deliberately taking advantage of the ambiguity.

The "report" feature on vBulletin, phpBB, and other sites preserves the chain of custody on the message. An admin or mod can see that, in fact, user X sent user Y a death threat. That doesn't prove, however, that user X and user Y are different people or that user X is really user *Z* (that takes a whole different level of sleuthing), but you can at least establish that a threat was sent and user X did it.

If people on G+ and elsewhere are getting death threats related to this controversy, they should be using whatever official report features are available to them. Anybody who's been on the Internet a while knows that fake reports are a thing, and that's why it's important to preserve whatever chain of custody there is. I understand that it's maddening to get a shitty message from JoeBlowAnonUserX and be unable to prove that your sworn enemy is behind it. Even someone with a decent level of system access and technical chops can struggle to make that connection. It can be done -- if the stalker is stupid enough (mine was hilariously so) and if the person doing the reverse-stalking has a few skills.

I've said here before that I was threatened and stalked on rpg.net and a few other places by the same person, and I haven't publicly posted who did it. One reason is that doing so would reveal technical measures I'm quite happy keeping to myself. :D Another is that I may yet have to take legal action if he ever starts bothering me again. And finally, because I am not prepared to upload a metric assload of technical data, thereby exposing not only my technical methods but also the identities of people who helped me nail this guy, I won't reveal his real name and socks publicly. Unless I'm prepared to lay out the *full* case (which I haven't yet to anyone other than family), I'm not comfortable naming names in public.

Making these accusations against Zak and Pundit without conclusively backing it up is a credibility-damaging move -- for the accuser.

Sacrosanct

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Wait, What Controversy about Pundit and Zak?
« Reply #249 on: July 10, 2014, 09:26:29 PM »
Quote from: Dana;767449
I'm not sure if the folks claiming harassment, death threats, and various kinds of -phobia are unaware that it can be difficult to conclusively connect the dots on these things or if they ARE aware and are deliberately taking advantage of the ambiguity.

The "report" feature on vBulletin, phpBB, and other sites preserves the chain of custody on the message. An admin or mod can see that, in fact, user X sent user Y a death threat. That doesn't prove, however, that user X and user Y are different people or that user X is really user *Z* (that takes a whole different level of sleuthing), but you can at least establish that a threat was sent and user X did it.

If people on G+ and elsewhere are getting death threats related to this controversy, they should be using whatever official report features are available to them. Anybody who's been on the Internet a while knows that fake reports are a thing, and that's why it's important to preserve whatever chain of custody there is. I understand that it's maddening to get a shitty message from JoeBlowAnonUserX and be unable to prove that your sworn enemy is behind it. Even someone with a decent level of system access and technical chops can struggle to make that connection. It can be done -- if the stalker is stupid enough (mine was hilariously so) and if the person doing the reverse-stalking has a few skills. .


Certainly people never make threats against themselves to stir controversy, gain attention, demonize the other side unfairly, or to hurt an innocent person.

Oh, wait.
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Snowman0147

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Wait, What Controversy about Pundit and Zak?
« Reply #250 on: July 10, 2014, 09:53:20 PM »
Quote from: Sacrosanct;767452
Oh, wait.


Yeah that woman is shit.

Take a good look at her pic people.  This is the face of the people who harm the reputation of REAL feminists every where.  Seriously the real ones need to take back their movement and put in quality control.

Zak S

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Wait, What Controversy about Pundit and Zak?
« Reply #251 on: July 10, 2014, 11:29:17 PM »
Quote from: Sacrosanct;767399
On a related topic to the OP, I posted this to Pundit's G+, and I feel it's relevant here as well:

To be honest, and of course this is just my personal speculation, but I don't think this whole outrage bullshit is even about you or Zak.  The outrage didn't start until 5e was released.  You and Zak are just ammunition.

This is largely my take (tho I do have to confront accusations, so that part's on if not about me).

I think the Concerned Gamers basically use these blow-ups to vent supressed shit they should be working out on their own before people from outside their community even come into view:
http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-teachable-moment-from-all-this.html
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JamesV

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Wait, What Controversy about Pundit and Zak?
« Reply #252 on: July 10, 2014, 11:45:34 PM »
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen;767414
Eh, there was some expectation that we'd both talk a bit online about what we talked about in person, then.  That's not my beef.

The weird



quote-fishing and bending of my attempt at hospitality and "show the man a good time among awesome and even flirty people", into a means to score cheap and insulting points for no gain, though?

That was pretty much exactly where all my "friendly debate" feels evaporated.


Ah, I appreciate the clarification.
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Marleycat

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Wait, What Controversy about Pundit and Zak?
« Reply #253 on: July 10, 2014, 11:54:06 PM »
Quote from: GMSkarka;767366
That's because Andri is a coward.

He's a fucking Icelander who's hobby is to bitch about US-based social justice issues on the internet.  

I mean, I know it must suck to be a Very Serious Social Justice Middle Class Kid Who's Down For The Struggle when you live in a country where social inequalities are "relatively non existent due to the homogeneous society" (source: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Comparative_law_and_justice/Iceland#Social_Inequality)...   but looking elsewhere so you can find a Struggle to be Down with?

That's just pathetic.

I didn't want to go there given it's such an obvious target.....but yeah.
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Marleycat

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Wait, What Controversy about Pundit and Zak?
« Reply #254 on: July 11, 2014, 12:02:02 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;767433
If you look back on its history, there was a time when a group of posters of the pseudo-activist variety made a public statement DEMANDING that rpgnet impose much stricter moderation in order to turn the site into an "emotionally safe environment".  

People laughed at them, and the mods at that time declared that rpgnet would never have a moderation policy whose goal it is to create an "emotionally safe environment" because that would not only be massively unpopular but it would be impossible to effectively moderate without going to extremes.  Note that at this time, their moderation was far from laissez faire, they were already much much stricter than theRPGsite is today.

So that's the time that the SJWs who now run rpgnet describe as the "wild west period".  They went on to get their revenge by imposing by subtlety and gradual infiltration what they had originally made the mistake of demanding outright.

RPGNet was Wild West until MtAw proved popular. Between 2004-6 it was RPGSite. Totally no holds barred and FUN. The Mage edition wars make Dnd edition wars look silly.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 12:21:20 AM by Marleycat »
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