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Author Topic: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.  (Read 100781 times)

oggsmash

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #885 on: June 28, 2022, 02:53:33 PM »


It’s quite telling that the one President in 40 years who never started a new foreign conflict during their term is the one the establishment members of both parties hated and comspired to remove from office. The establishment forbade him even a single recess appointment during his entire term so he could only use establishment cronies to fill his cabinet who wouldn’t go against the graft.

The central planners want to centralize even more of society; calling it Build Back Better… but the only thing that will actually make the world better is by decentralizing power so no one assclown has the power to start another of these pointless Forever Wars.

* military actions taken by the Ukrainian government against ethnic Russian civilians in eastern Ukraine since 2014 in violation of various treaties were also claimed as motives, but if that were the entire motivation then their attacks would have long since ceased since those regions have been secured by the Russians. Instead attacks into Western Ukraine continue.

If you're talking about that thing that was in the white house after losing to Hillary Clinton by 3 million votes, I remind you it launched military strikes at Syria.

https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/1144601/trump-orders-missile-attack-in-retaliation-for-syrian-chemical-strikes/

Also,  it has been established that the animal in the white house in 2020 wanted to use the US military to 'beat the fuck out of'' and shoot protestors in Washington in 2020. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/mark-esper-trump-shoot-black-lives-matter-protesters-1346079/

  Winning by 3 million votes shows how great democrats are at stuffing ballot boxes in Cali I guess, but not much past that.

Battlemaster
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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #886 on: June 28, 2022, 09:43:09 PM »
Ogg, you're an idiot.
Fuck the fascist right and the fascist left.

oggsmash

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #887 on: June 28, 2022, 09:53:56 PM »
Ogg, you're an idiot.


   You do understand Biden won Cali by like 5 million votes, right?  Because if you do not understand that, and insult another person's intelligence...it really, really says a whole lot about how many boogers your sorry ass eats a day while sitting in that adult diaper at a computer.

I

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #888 on: June 29, 2022, 12:53:38 PM »
And a related problem there is just the passage of time. The Holodomor, horrific as it was, was almost 90 years ago and four generations have been born there since.

How much responsibility does someone who’s great great grandfather was relocated there by the Soviets have for living where his father, grandfather and great grandfather were born?
Where was the implication I was blaming the people living there?
Those people where the ones who had their homes blown up first in this war. A large majority dislocated are those from the east.
Im angry at the current Russian government for using that weak as hell claim to bombard the people they are “rescuing”. So they can secure a land bridge to project naval strength they don’t have. Also getting access to natural resources by pure coincidence.

I don’t believe in reparations, but if your gonna kill and displace people, don’t claim your rescuing them.

You're not really arguing that everybody living in eastern Ukraine all speak Ukrainian and want to belong to Ukraine and hate Russia?  Because that's objectively not true.  Their homes were blown up by the Ukrainian military, and have been since 2014.  They're not all on Russia's side, but there's a reason the area seceded.   Do you not watch any news but Western propaganda?  REAL journalists, unlike the Democrat shills in the U.S., have been covering the news in that area for a long time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8j0tJsKltg

And while the Holodomor was certainly real and certainly tragic (though Western Leftists denied it was real until the USSR fell and the evidence became too much to ignore), the idea that eastern Ukraine had no Russian-speakers living in it before then is ridiculous.  Gogol's story "Viy" (1835) is set in Ukraine and he talks about Cossacks, Little Russians and the different peoples all living in that area.  And as for "rescuing" the people they're killing and getting access to natural resources... America and its allies better look in the mirror on that one.

jhkim

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #889 on: June 29, 2022, 04:04:18 PM »
You're not really arguing that everybody living in eastern Ukraine all speak Ukrainian and want to belong to Ukraine and hate Russia?  Because that's objectively not true.  Their homes were blown up by the Ukrainian military, and have been since 2014.  They're not all on Russia's side, but there's a reason the area seceded.   Do you not watch any news but Western propaganda?  REAL journalists, unlike the Democrat shills in the U.S., have been covering the news in that area for a long time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8j0tJsKltg

And while the Holodomor was certainly real and certainly tragic (though Western Leftists denied it was real until the USSR fell and the evidence became too much to ignore), the idea that eastern Ukraine had no Russian-speakers living in it before then is ridiculous.

Yes, eastern Ukraine had a large percentage of Russian speakers, like many of the post-Soviet republics. However, you're implying here that all of "Eastern Ukraine" seceded and was being bombed prior to the war. However, it was only a minority slice of Donetsk and Luhantz that were held by armed rebels. I've been talking to people I know in both Ukraine and Russia. They're all extremely anti-Putin.

In particular, the Poroshenko speech at the start of that film is mistranslated and edited for effect - which should be obvious. Even ethnic oppressors don't speak so openly on camera about such things. He was addressing the mostly Russian-speaking people of Odessa. In the speech, the "we" and "they" isn't Ukrainian-speaking vs Russian-speaking, but peaceful citizens vs violent rebels. He was talking about applying non-violent consequences for armed rebels. That because they were in armed rebellion against the government, they would not have government services.

https://www.stopfake.org/en/lies-petro-poroshenko-promised-that-children-from-donbas-would-be-sitting-in-cellars/

I can believe that Poroshenko is privately biased against Russian speakers, but there's no way he would talk that way on camera about 1/3rd of his country, when less than 5% was in rebellion. He especially wouldn't speak that way when addressing a largely Russian-speaking city.

As for the separatists -- I have sympathy for peaceful separatist movements like Scotland, Catalonia, and Quebec. However, redrawing borders along ethnic lines brings to mind India/Pakistan and Israel/Palestine, which were disastrous and served only to increase ethnic conflict.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #890 on: June 30, 2022, 12:13:10 PM »
You're not really arguing that everybody living in eastern Ukraine all speak Ukrainian and want to belong to Ukraine and hate Russia?

No. But the bombings pre-invasion where double digits in casualties. The Ukrainian government is a bag of dicks. Its corrupt, and decadent with weak ideas about national unity.

But Russian government is Ukraine+ in all of those qualities. So the war happening for those territories is an absolute farce.

Edit: If Russia takes those territories I sincerely hope the people living there live better lives.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 01:06:08 PM by Shrieking Banshee »

I

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #891 on: June 30, 2022, 02:15:20 PM »
I agree about the current Ukrainian government, and my sympathies were far more for Ukraine prior to the U.S. deposing its elected president and installing a puppet.  I am also for peaceful secession movements.  But it takes two to make peace, and if the central government decides they're not allowing secession, then there will be war. And my sympathies are 100% with Ukraine when it comes to them vs. Stalin or any other USSR leader.  I didn't believe all the bullshit coming out of the Western media about Ukraine being full of neo-Nazis and white supremacists (which was their tack before they about-faced and decided Ukraine was a bastion of liberal democracy when Russia invaded).  Ukrainians don't help themselves by waving swastikas and adopting SS symbols, but they're not Nazis.  There are two sides to every story, and as an American I really resent (1) America being involved on either side, it's not our fight, and (2) the American media distorting the facts by presenting only one side at a time -- are the Ukrainians evil Nazis, or heroic democratic freedom fighters?  Because they can't be both at the same time.   And NATO was flat-out wrong to push itself right up to Russia's borders, wrong to turn itself into an offensive alliance rather than a defensive one, and wrong to even exist after the Warsaw Pact broke up.  My beef is not so much with Ukraine, it's with America's involvement in it and the American media's blatant manipulation of the public to get it to go along with whatever our government wants. 

America got involved in WW I for similar reasons (financially backing only one side in a war), then that war led to WW II.  How did the rest of the world getting involved in Serbia's conflict with the Austro-Hungarian Empire work out for Serbia?  How has it worked out in the long run?  Serbia got taken over by Austria-Hungary, then the Nazis, then the Communists, and finally bombed into submission by their "allies," the Americans and British.

I support secession in my own country; why wouldn't support it elsewhere?  It's better to get along as friends than stay together as enemies.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #892 on: June 30, 2022, 02:27:23 PM »
I support secession in my own country; why wouldn't support it elsewhere?  It's better to get along as friends than stay together as enemies.

I agree with that. Thats also not the Russian power structure. That alternates between tyrannical dictatorship with aims for conquest and chaotic anarchy picked apart by outsiders. Its been that way since the mongols conquest and a bunch of ethnic groups where forced together.
Russia doesn’t want separatists. It wants 100 weakened republics that all 100% depend on it. Russia has been an empire by conquest for hundreds of years. Governments join NATO willingly to escape russia. They join Russia by force.
Americans are also deeply self obsessed. Because they where involved in some government must mean there where no other players. Because the scenario is grey assuming that you walk away from the table you stop playing the game.

Edit: To clarify - wether an american loves America, or hates it, they all seem to have a cartoonish one-size fits all view of the world, and are absolutely certain they have it figured out.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 03:07:00 PM by Shrieking Banshee »

I

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #893 on: July 01, 2022, 01:40:28 AM »
I support secession in my own country; why wouldn't support it elsewhere?  It's better to get along as friends than stay together as enemies.

I agree with that. Thats also not the Russian power structure. That alternates between tyrannical dictatorship with aims for conquest and chaotic anarchy picked apart by outsiders. Its been that way since the mongols conquest and a bunch of ethnic groups where forced together.
Russia doesn’t want separatists. It wants 100 weakened republics that all 100% depend on it. Russia has been an empire by conquest for hundreds of years. Governments join NATO willingly to escape russia. They join Russia by force.
Americans are also deeply self obsessed. Because they where involved in some government must mean there where no other players. Because the scenario is grey assuming that you walk away from the table you stop playing the game.

Edit: To clarify - wether an american loves America, or hates it, they all seem to have a cartoonish one-size fits all view of the world, and are absolutely certain they have it figured out.

There's nothing you said here that is untrue.

Battlemaster
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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #894 on: July 02, 2022, 12:05:23 AM »
THB I read the 'I support secession in my own country' line and nodded. As an american I thnk we should encourage people to move out of hopessly red states into purple or pale blue ones, form solid voting majorities and vote to secede from the red states.

We end up with 'america' and something called 'Donaldtrumpistan', 'murkkka' , 'Jeezuzzland' or WTFE.
Fuck the fascist right and the fascist left.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #895 on: July 02, 2022, 12:11:44 AM »
THB I read the 'I support secession in my own country' line and nodded.

I sincerely apreciate your efforts to drag this conversation about an actual ongoing war with actual people that are actually dying by the hundreds into a spat about USA based political dickwaving.

But If you want to just call people names, you can make a separate thread instead.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #896 on: July 02, 2022, 12:37:25 PM »
THB I read the 'I support secession in my own country' line and nodded. As an american I thnk we should encourage people to move out of hopessly red states into purple or pale blue ones, form solid voting majorities and vote to secede from the red states.

We end up with 'america' and something called 'Donaldtrumpistan', 'murkkka' , 'Jeezuzzland' or WTFE.
More likely you end up with something resembling Kurt Schlichter's 'People's Republic' novels.

But do go on. You have such a vivid imagination.

jeff37923

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #897 on: July 02, 2022, 04:44:15 PM »
THB I read the 'I support secession in my own country' line and nodded. As an american I thnk we should encourage people to move out of hopessly red states into purple or pale blue ones, form solid voting majorities and vote to secede from the red states.

We end up with 'america' and something called 'Donaldtrumpistan', 'murkkka' , 'Jeezuzzland' or WTFE.

Excpet that's not happening, is it?

People are sick and tired of living in failed blue states and are migrating en masse to red states where crime is under control because nobody decided to defund the police when a fucking junkie got killed. How are those democrat cities doing, Battlefailure? How has the crime rate dropped?
"Meh."

jhkim

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #898 on: July 02, 2022, 07:28:42 PM »
People are sick and tired of living in failed blue states and are migrating en masse to red states where crime is under control because nobody decided to defund the police when a fucking junkie got killed. How are those democrat cities doing, Battlefailure? How has the crime rate dropped?

The crime rate in red states and cities is also up, though. I see an analysis from Pew Research for 2020, though I haven't seen a general update for 2021 yet.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/10/27/what-we-know-about-the-increase-in-u-s-murders-in-2020/

https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2022/02/09/lawmakers-target-rise-in-violent-crime-arizona-rates-remain-above-u-s/

The states that had the highest percent increase in crime in 2020 were Montana (+84%), South Dakota (+81%), Delaware (+62%) and Kentucky (+61%). California had a higher percentage increase than Texas - but even with the higher increase, Texas still has a higher per-capita murder rate than California. So that hardly explains the migration.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm


The real news about in-state migration is telecommuting. Since the pandemic, a huge number of jobs have gone to remote. People are then moving out of expensive cities and states (where the jobs are generally based) and moving to lower-cost cities and states.

moonsweeper

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #899 on: July 02, 2022, 10:18:59 PM »
People are sick and tired of living in failed blue states and are migrating en masse to red states where crime is under control because nobody decided to defund the police when a fucking junkie got killed. How are those democrat cities doing, Battlefailure? How has the crime rate dropped?

The crime rate in red states and cities is also up, though. I see an analysis from Pew Research for 2020, though I haven't seen a general update for 2021 yet.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/10/27/what-we-know-about-the-increase-in-u-s-murders-in-2020/

https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2022/02/09/lawmakers-target-rise-in-violent-crime-arizona-rates-remain-above-u-s/

The states that had the highest percent increase in crime in 2020 were Montana (+84%), South Dakota (+81%), Delaware (+62%) and Kentucky (+61%). California had a higher percentage increase than Texas - but even with the higher increase, Texas still has a higher per-capita murder rate than California. So that hardly explains the migration.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/homicide_mortality/homicide.htm


The real news about in-state migration is telecommuting. Since the pandemic, a huge number of jobs have gone to remote. People are then moving out of expensive cities and states (where the jobs are generally based) and moving to lower-cost cities and states.

Notice how they always try the 'percentage' game when they want to talk about how bad the murder rate went up in a rural state like Montana...   ;)

I'm not sure where they got the numbers though because according to the state government website Montana had 41 Murder/manslaughter incidents in 2019 and 51 of them in 2020...unless they only factored in 'specifically' murder in which case the overall total is obviously even lower than the 51.  Also interesting that the 2018 total was also 41 and in 2021 it dropped back to 33 total...wonder what the percentage drop for the specifically 'murder' quantities were,,,

https://dataportal.mt.gov/t/MBCC/views/CIM-ViolentCrime/Dash_Main_ViolentCrime?iframeSizedToWindow=true&%3Aembed=y&%3AshowAppBanner=false&%3Adisplay_count=n&%3AshowVizHome=n&%3Aorigin=viz_share_link


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