Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.

[HappyDaze]

I dont know about deserve but gawd damn a whole battalion of Nazis complete with bioweapon labs?

And all those nuclear reactors! Those people where just BEGGING to get shelled.
I have reapeated like 12 times wher Ukraines positive association with Nazis is, there are biolabs with dangerous samples in almost every country on earth, and I assume at this point you just repeat it to get a rise out of me.

Dont misunderstand, I do feel sympathy for you and your family.

He says in sarcastic black type.

[Shasarak]

I dont know about deserve but gawd damn a whole battalion of Nazis complete with bioweapon labs?

And all those nuclear reactors! Those people where just BEGGING to get shelled.
I have reapeated like 12 times wher Ukraines positive association with Nazis is, there are biolabs with dangerous samples in almost every country on earth, and I assume at this point you just repeat it to get a rise out of me.

Dont misunderstand, I do feel sympathy for you and your family.

He says in sarcastic black type.

Good on ya, mate.

[Pat]

I think we can all agree that what's happening in Ukraine is bad, but at least it's not New Zealand.

[Jaeger]

I don't disagree that it's a mess, but every war is a big mess. ...

In Ukraine, restoring the status quo means restoring the state prior to the military invasion - i.e. how things were on Feb 23rd. That doesn't mean that all the other shenanigans were OK, but the invasion was definitely *not* OK. Every country should get the message that attempting such an invasion is a huge mistake, and that there is no benefit to doing so. To my mind, that's absolutely vital - and has repercussions far beyond Ukraine itself.

The status quo as it was on may 23rd is what Russia claimed as a Casus Belli to invade. I don't see how going back to that is a long term solution to anything.

Plus going back to the "status quo" is moot anyway.

In my opinion, the problem here is How do we kick Russia out without going to WW3?

We can't.

Sanctions? From everything I'm seeing Russia has prepared for this and they will not affect them quite as badly as Brandon's handlers thought.

Russia has enough nuclear weapons to wipe out both the EU and the US.

So the world is going to sit, and wait to see what Russia does with Ukraine with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I agree that it sucks for the Ukrainians. So what do you suggest is best to do for the Ukrainians right now? ...

Give to quality Humanitarian Charities like you suggested is really the only thing to do right now aside from wait and hope we don't wind up in WW3.

...
Is it just me or does it seem that the US is willing to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian?

Yes. Absolutely. It is obvious.

The current Elites running our country would see it as a good thing if Russia gets bogged down in an Afghanistan insurgency situation.

But what would save the most innocent Ukrainian lives in the long run?

Well, Russia is all-in on this. Whether you agree with them or not, they saw the situation in Ukraine as an existential security threat, which is why they invaded.

The clear life saving option would be for the West to convince Z to surrender, and cut a deal with Russia for a neutral Ukraine.

That would save actual lives.

What is the West doing?

Sending Billions in weapons.

[Shrieking Banshee]

Well Russia (or putin and his cronies) see Ukraine as wanting to return to Russia. He is irrational and delusional, which is why I don't 100% believe in a fast surrender.

[Pat]

Russia has enough nuclear weapons to wipe out both the EU and the US.

So the world is going to sit, and wait to see what Russia does with Ukraine with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

You have a lot more faith than I do in the world's leaders.

[Mistwell]

I don't disagree that it's a mess, but every war is a big mess. ...

In Ukraine, restoring the status quo means restoring the state prior to the military invasion - i.e. how things were on Feb 23rd. That doesn't mean that all the other shenanigans were OK, but the invasion was definitely *not* OK. Every country should get the message that attempting such an invasion is a huge mistake, and that there is no benefit to doing so. To my mind, that's absolutely vital - and has repercussions far beyond Ukraine itself.

The status quo as it was on may 23rd is what Russia claimed as a Casus Belli to invade. I don't see how going back to that is a long term solution to anything.

Plus going back to the "status quo" is moot anyway.

In my opinion, the problem here is How do we kick Russia out without going to WW3?

We can't.

This is where I think a lot of people disagree with your position. I think there will 1) be no WW3, and 2) Russia will pull back from Ukraine. We shall see. But if that does happen, if Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3, then you will spin and dance and bluff your way into claiming either they didn't withdraw despite it being obvious they withdrew, or that WW3 did happen despite it being obvious it didn't happen. Because...that's this message board and nobody is ever wrong they're just correct from their own perspective.

[Pat]

This is where I think a lot of people disagree with your position. I think there will 1) be no WW3, and 2) Russia will pull back from Ukraine. We shall see. But if that does happen, if Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3, then you will spin and dance and bluff your way into claiming either they didn't withdraw despite it being obvious they withdrew, or that WW3 did happen despite it being obvious it didn't happen. Because...that's this message board and nobody is ever wrong they're just correct from their own perspective.

This message board is certainly full of people telling other people their future actions. It's almost as common as mind reading or thorough psychological evaluations, based on a single opinion.

[Mistwell]

This is where I think a lot of people disagree with your position. I think there will 1) be no WW3, and 2) Russia will pull back from Ukraine. We shall see. But if that does happen, if Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3, then you will spin and dance and bluff your way into claiming either they didn't withdraw despite it being obvious they withdrew, or that WW3 did happen despite it being obvious it didn't happen. Because...that's this message board and nobody is ever wrong they're just correct from their own perspective.

This message board is certainly full of people telling other people their future actions. It's almost as common as mind reading or thorough psychological evaluations, based on a single opinion.

Pat, do you disagree with what I said or did you think that snark was helpful in some fashion beyond the entertainment value of snark? To be clear, I am not denigrating the entertainment value of snark. Just checking on your intent here.

[jhkim]

I don't disagree that it's a mess, but every war is a big mess. ...

In Ukraine, restoring the status quo means restoring the state prior to the military invasion - i.e. how things were on Feb 23rd. That doesn't mean that all the other shenanigans were OK, but the invasion was definitely *not* OK. Every country should get the message that attempting such an invasion is a huge mistake, and that there is no benefit to doing so. To my mind, that's absolutely vital - and has repercussions far beyond Ukraine itself.

The status quo as it was on may 23rd is what Russia claimed as a Casus Belli to invade. I don't see how going back to that is a long term solution to anything.

Plus going back to the "status quo" is moot anyway.

In my opinion, the problem here is How do we kick Russia out without going to WW3?

We can't.

Sanctions? From everything I'm seeing Russia has prepared for this and they will not affect them quite as badly as Brandon's handlers thought.

Russia has enough nuclear weapons to wipe out both the EU and the US.

So the world is going to sit, and wait to see what Russia does with Ukraine with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

You're speaking as if it's all-or-nothing. Either the world militarily forces Russia out immediately, or we do nothing. But from the perspective of incentives, that's not the case. The more adversity Russia goes through because of its invasion, the less attractive invasion will appear to all other would-be conquerors. Even if the Russians ultimately succeed, what matters is the cost. The higher the price tag is, the less likely that others will want to buy it.

This will have major implication not only for the other former Soviet states, but also for Taiwan, Western Sahara, South Korea, and many other regions. If the world's response is to do nothing and encourage surrender to the invader, then all sorts of countries will see that conquest is profitable. Contrary to your assertion, I think the economic sanction do have an effect. They won't magically take out Russia's armies, but they strongly affect how profitable the war is -- which goes into the calculus of whether Russia or other countries will attempt more such invasions in the future.

Is it just me or does it seem that the US is willing to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian?

Yes. Absolutely. It is obvious.

The current Elites running our country would see it as a good thing if Russia gets bogged down in an Afghanistan insurgency situation.

But what would save the most innocent Ukrainian lives in the long run?

Well, Russia is all-in on this. Whether you agree with them or not, they saw the situation in Ukraine as an existential security threat, which is why they invaded.

The clear life saving option would be for the West to convince Z to surrender, and cut a deal with Russia for a neutral Ukraine.

I don't think it is clear that surrender saves lives in the long run -- just like how paying terrorists what they want doesn't save lives in the long run. Putin isn't honest and good-hearted and just wanting to protect Russia. He is engaged in this war for *profit*, not for defense. Giving him what he wants isn't going to make the world safer by appeasing him. It will send a clear signal that invasions for profit are allowed and encouraged.

You and Shasarak are speaking as if the only reason that the Ukrainians are fighting is because the American elites are telling them to, which I think is bullshit. The Ukrainians are fighting because it's their country. If they want to surrender, I wouldn't blame them - but if they want to fight, then I think they should be supported.

[Jaeger]

Russia has enough nuclear weapons to wipe out both the EU and the US.

So the world is going to sit, and wait to see what Russia does with Ukraine with much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

You have a lot more faith than I do in the world's leaders.

I do have some Hope that they won't go full retard and do shit like a "No Fly Zone" over Ukraine.

Admittedly, their current temper tantrum of shipping more weapons and "aid" into Ukraine is certainly not helping matters at all!

This is where I think a lot of people disagree with your position. I think there will 1) be no WW3, and 2) Russia will pull back from Ukraine. We shall see. But if that does happen, if Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3, then you will spin and dance and bluff your way into claiming either they didn't withdraw despite it being obvious they withdrew, or that WW3 did happen despite it being obvious it didn't happen. Because...that's this message board and nobody is ever wrong they're just correct from their own perspective.

This message board is certainly full of people telling other people their future actions. It's almost as common as mind reading or thorough psychological evaluations, based on a single opinion.

He seems to extrapolate/read more from people's posts than what they actually wrote.

He then restates his extrapolation as if you had used those exact words yourself, and then proceeds to argue against it.

I am not the only poster in this thread, let alone this site, to experience this.


"Russia does pull back from Ukraine without WW3" - Ummm yeah, that's actually what I expect to eventually happen if the West does not lose its mind...


On "Russia pulling back from Ukraine":

Russia wants regime change in Ukraine. As I stated in reply # 51 of this thread. I would also assume that they would eventually pull back if Z surrendered, and gives Putin everything he wants. I very much doubt that Z would remain in power however.

Russia will pull out of Ukraine when they feel that they have done what they have set out to accomplish, more or less (Negotiations ongoing etc..)

In my opinion: Russia does not want to permanently occupy Ukraine. They want it as a neutralish buffer state between them and NATO. And they will recognize the Donbass republics as a new country - for however long that lasts. I don't know the ultimate fate of the people in the Donbass.

Do I believe that Russia will pull back from Ukraine do to the Sanctions, or by some miracle, being militarily defeated by the Ukrainians?

No. Russia is all-in on this.


On "No WW3":

I certainly hope so. And nowhere in my posts have I said that WW3 is going to happen.

I am concerned about it. Because this war is very dangerous and could easily spiral out of control.

The current crop of Elites running the US/West are idiots, and acting all kinds of stupid.

Everyone should be concerned.

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Yeah, "Status Quo". Fuck that. We aren't going back to any kind of "Status Quo". 300,000 Russian troops and President Vladimir Putin have made sure that the EU and America now gets to shut the fuck up and listen to what Russia says. The Russians are indeed all-in on ensuring that their Ukrainian border is secure, whether we like it or not. Unfortunately for the ordinary Ukrainian people caught up in this fucking international game of cock-measuring, profit-mongering, and political corruption, they certainly won't be going back to any kind of "Status Quo".

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

[Shrieking Banshee]

At this point Russia can't have a functional Regime in Ukraine without an occupation.
Its one thing to knock over one puppet for another. Its another to murder your people and expect them to like you.
The Ukrainian army has deserted for Russia before (the navy in crimea). They didn't this time even when given the opportunity.

Nobody in Ukraine likes Zelensky. If Russia bombed him in his sleep, it would be one tjing. But Russia has made itself an existential threat of Ukraine. Whatever Putins plan was, I get the sense that this wasn't it.

[DocJones]

Even if the Russians ultimately succeed, what matters is the cost. The higher the price tag is, the less likely that others will want to buy it.

The USA is spending billions and billions to defend this corrupt country.
/I'm paying for it.   My neighbors are paying for it.  I don't want to.   
Clearly no lessons have been learned here.

[Lynn]

Nobody in Ukraine likes Zelensky. If Russia bombed him in his sleep, it would be one tjing. But Russia has made itself an existential threat of Ukraine. Whatever Putins plan was, I get the sense that this wasn't it.

I don't think that's entirely true. Some of my colleagues really thought he was a joke at first and would roll over, and all things considered, the guy was a comedian. But some also are appreciating that he hasn't turned out to be the joke they originally thought he was.