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Author Topic: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.  (Read 100763 times)

Mistwell

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #420 on: March 13, 2022, 10:50:23 AM »
But does anybody really want Siberia?  Here in Canada, we lay claim to a lot of territory that nobody in their right mind would want to contest and so we get to keep it.  I have recently suggested that we just let the entire population of Ukraine immigrate to northern Saskatchewan.  It would nicely swing the center of voting power to the west :D

Yes, China REALLY wants Siberia. They used to own it. The people who currently live there have many ties to China. The population on the China border with Russia is roughly 10 times the population on the Russian border side. China needs room, and that's the room they've often wanted.

The NYT (not a great source) was writing about how China will eventually retake Siberia back in 2014/2015

« Last Edit: March 13, 2022, 10:53:50 AM by Mistwell »

squirewaldo

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #421 on: March 13, 2022, 11:34:46 AM »
But does anybody really want Siberia?  Here in Canada, we lay claim to a lot of territory that nobody in their right mind would want to contest and so we get to keep it.  I have recently suggested that we just let the entire population of Ukraine immigrate to northern Saskatchewan.  It would nicely swing the center of voting power to the west :D

Yes, China REALLY wants Siberia. They used to own it. The people who currently live there have many ties to China. The population on the China border with Russia is roughly 10 times the population on the Russian border side. China needs room, and that's the room they've often wanted.

The NYT (not a great source) was writing about how China will eventually retake Siberia back in 2014/2015



Siberia is often wrongly considered a snowy wasteland. This is false. Vladivostok is along the same latitude as Portland. There are rich farmlands waiting for farmers to develop them. Mountains with lakes and rich pastures that would make Montana look like a desert. And then oil, gas, metals, lumber, etc. Siberia is a rich land waiting to be developed, and for many different reasons the Russians have been unable to accomplish what the USA did in North America during the 19th Century. Currently most of the Russian people reside within 100 miles of the Moscow -- St Petersburg axis. No matter what incentives are offered by the Russian government, no matter how impoverished the Russians living there may be, most Russians will not leave that area and head East. As such the Chinese are taking over Siberia with illegal immigrants, and there is not much that the Russians can do about it.

The real question is going to be whether or not Russia is able to integrate those Chinese into Russian culture, or will they eventually turn Siberia into China?

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #422 on: March 13, 2022, 02:44:36 PM »
Biden said Iranian instead of Ukrainian in his SotU speech. Bad mistake, but he said it correctly many other times in the same speech. He should be very embarrassed and apologize, but it's ultimately just a slip of the tongue.

Harris laughed when asked about Ukrainian refugees, in a press conference with the president of Poland. Very inappropriate, but we know she basically has Tourette's, except with laughter. That means she frequently comes across very poorly, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on her knowledge and competence.

But most recently, during a speech to the DNC, Harris said "the United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO Alliance."

NATO is a mutual defense pact. The nations who are part of it have pledged to treat an attack against any member as an attack against all members. This is a very strong commitment, because it involves sacrificing domestic lives to preserve other countries. Potentially a lot of lives, for foreigners the average American may not care a lot about

Except Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Not knowing isn't just a slip of the tongue. The person who is a heartbeat away from being the Commander in Chief doesn't know who the US's allies are, and which countries the US has pledged the lives of their young men and women to defend.

HappyDaze

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #423 on: March 13, 2022, 02:52:05 PM »
Biden said Iranian instead of Ukrainian in his SotU speech. Bad mistake, but he said it correctly many other times in the same speech. He should be very embarrassed and apologize, but it's ultimately just a slip of the tongue.

Harris laughed when asked about Ukrainian refugees, in a press conference with the president of Poland. Very inappropriate, but we know she basically has Tourette's, except with laughter. That means she frequently comes across very poorly, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on her knowledge and competence.

But most recently, during a speech to the DNC, Harris said "the United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO Alliance."

NATO is a mutual defense pact. The nations who are part of it have pledged to treat an attack against any member as an attack against all members. This is a very strong commitment, because it involves sacrificing domestic lives to preserve other countries. Potentially a lot of lives, for foreigners the average American may not care a lot about

Except Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Not knowing isn't just a slip of the tongue. The person who is a heartbeat away from being the Commander in Chief doesn't know who the US's allies are, and which countries the US has pledged the lives of their young men and women to defend.
Nervous/stress laughter is a thing. Buddy of mine was a combat medic, and when we had medical emergencies (including a patient that had a wound closure open and abdominal evisceration post surgery) he would giggle like a little girl even while his hands were steady and mind was sharp.

We can only hope our VP is the same, but I doubt it.

Lynn

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #424 on: March 13, 2022, 08:32:05 PM »
Siberia is often wrongly considered a snowy wasteland. This is false. Vladivostok is along the same latitude as Portland.

While you are right that the geography isn't something you can assume, you've chosen a poor example. Vladivostok gets mostly sub-Arctic weather which is much harsher than Portland. When you have a really cold airstream coming off quite cold lands, you can get loads of snow all winter. If you go up north in the province there and look out on the ocean, you can get free floating ice in the winter as well.
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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #425 on: March 13, 2022, 08:35:29 PM »
Quote
The real question is going to be whether or not Russia is able to integrate those Chinese into Russian culture, or will they eventually turn Siberia into China?

New culture can arise. Depends how Chinese migrants, often founding families with Chinese women will want to proceed.

Quote
es, China REALLY wants Siberia. They used to own it

No, not really. For most of history Chinese states covered just about half of less of modern China (Easternmost part usually), slowly stretching to modern size. One piece they really lost was Mongolia, they hold for several centuries. The only serious claim for just a piece of Siberia - very small compared to modern Russian Siberia was during Yuan dynasty - ergo Mongol dynasty, they finally toppled over for being Mongols - and then it was remainder of Mongol conquests, not Chinese ones, and they lost it, when they removed Mongols.
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Ratman_tf

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #426 on: March 14, 2022, 02:13:50 AM »
That is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.

I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?

Maybe he is an Oughtist?

Do we have posters here who think war is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Do we have posters here who think cutting people open and blood spurting and sometimes those people dying is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?

Or can we talk about surgery, or accidents, or that there are risk and dangers in the world and we can't completely erase them or human nature, and that there are costs to risk avoidance, without people patronizingly reframing everything as simplistic binaries where they're the only possible reasonable ones and anyone who they're disagreeing with is a complete psychopath?

No?

Apparently not. I didn't find anything in jhkim's post that was unrealistically idealist or patronizing.
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Shasarak

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #427 on: March 14, 2022, 02:31:12 AM »
That is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.

I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?

Maybe he is an Oughtist?

Do we have posters here who think war is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Do we have posters here who think cutting people open and blood spurting and sometimes those people dying is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?

Or can we talk about surgery, or accidents, or that there are risk and dangers in the world and we can't completely erase them or human nature, and that there are costs to risk avoidance, without people patronizingly reframing everything as simplistic binaries where they're the only possible reasonable ones and anyone who they're disagreeing with is a complete psychopath?

No?

Apparently not. I didn't find anything in jhkim's post that was unrealistically idealist or patronizing.

War is super cool and fun when you can sit back and sell weapons to other people.

Personally I am surprised that there has not been shipments of go pros sent out with each case of weapons.
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Pat
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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #428 on: March 14, 2022, 06:19:31 AM »
That is really a prognostication I do not care to try to make.
I wouldn't advocate anybody go to War with Russia on Ukraines behalf. While maybe emotionally driven, I now don't believe in war at all. For a bit I thought war could remind people to be tougher. But now I think its so horrific and unpredictable its never worth it.

I've always been anti-war. The problem is that if people just surrender to the invader immediately because "war is bad", it won't be the end of war. The invaders will realize that war gets them what they want - so they will go to war again, as will other countries who see the same lesson.
Why do you think a world without war would be better?

Maybe he is an Oughtist?

Do we have posters here who think war is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?
Do we have posters here who think cutting people open and blood spurting and sometimes those people dying is cool and fun and we should have more of it, more often?

Or can we talk about surgery, or accidents, or that there are risk and dangers in the world and we can't completely erase them or human nature, and that there are costs to risk avoidance, without people patronizingly reframing everything as simplistic binaries where they're the only possible reasonable ones and anyone who they're disagreeing with is a complete psychopath?

No?

Apparently not. I didn't find anything in jhkim's post that was unrealistically idealist or patronizing.
I wasn't referring to Kim's post, I was referring to yours. Which should be obvious, because I mimicked the structure and phrasing you used.

Though looking at it again, I might have misinterpreted your tone.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2022, 06:24:15 AM by Pat »

Pat
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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #429 on: March 14, 2022, 06:21:46 AM »
War is super cool and fun when you can sit back and sell weapons to other people.

Personally I am surprised that there has not been shipments of go pros sent out with each case of weapons.
Can we livestream an entire country on TikTok? They should make that a thing. We could log in, zoom in, find a resistance cell, and demand they twerk for our amusement.


Ghostmaker

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #430 on: March 14, 2022, 08:18:56 AM »
Biden said Iranian instead of Ukrainian in his SotU speech. Bad mistake, but he said it correctly many other times in the same speech. He should be very embarrassed and apologize, but it's ultimately just a slip of the tongue.

Harris laughed when asked about Ukrainian refugees, in a press conference with the president of Poland. Very inappropriate, but we know she basically has Tourette's, except with laughter. That means she frequently comes across very poorly, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on her knowledge and competence.

But most recently, during a speech to the DNC, Harris said "the United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO Alliance."

NATO is a mutual defense pact. The nations who are part of it have pledged to treat an attack against any member as an attack against all members. This is a very strong commitment, because it involves sacrificing domestic lives to preserve other countries. Potentially a lot of lives, for foreigners the average American may not care a lot about

Except Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Not knowing isn't just a slip of the tongue. The person who is a heartbeat away from being the Commander in Chief doesn't know who the US's allies are, and which countries the US has pledged the lives of their young men and women to defend.
Did you expect a demented old hair-sniffer and an actual whore to do their homework and at least sound intelligent?

Regarding China and 'what does Russia do if China starts biting off chunks of Siberia?', first off China's actually heavily invested into Africa at the moment. Can't see them opening up another front just yet.

Second, that strikes me as a great way to push Putin to start playing with his nuclear toys. The dark irony of WW3 being confined to a Russia-China nuke exchange would probably make me laugh, if I didn't know the repercussions would be an absolute disaster.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #431 on: March 14, 2022, 09:47:46 AM »
Biden said Iranian instead of Ukrainian in his SotU speech. Bad mistake, but he said it correctly many other times in the same speech. He should be very embarrassed and apologize, but it's ultimately just a slip of the tongue.

Harris laughed when asked about Ukrainian refugees, in a press conference with the president of Poland. Very inappropriate, but we know she basically has Tourette's, except with laughter. That means she frequently comes across very poorly, but it doesn't necessarily reflect on her knowledge and competence.

But most recently, during a speech to the DNC, Harris said "the United States stands firmly with the Ukrainian people in defense of the NATO Alliance."

NATO is a mutual defense pact. The nations who are part of it have pledged to treat an attack against any member as an attack against all members. This is a very strong commitment, because it involves sacrificing domestic lives to preserve other countries. Potentially a lot of lives, for foreigners the average American may not care a lot about

Except Ukraine isn't part of NATO. Not knowing isn't just a slip of the tongue. The person who is a heartbeat away from being the Commander in Chief doesn't know who the US's allies are, and which countries the US has pledged the lives of their young men and women to defend.
Did you expect a demented old hair-sniffer and an actual whore to do their homework and at least sound intelligent?

Y'know. I have been thinking about Regan a lot. Biden is way more gone mentally than Regan ever was, or was even portrayed to be. And this guy is in the position of setting foreign policy, and has his metaphorical finger on the nuclear button.
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squirewaldo

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #432 on: March 14, 2022, 11:04:52 AM »
Siberia is often wrongly considered a snowy wasteland. This is false. Vladivostok is along the same latitude as Portland.

While you are right that the geography isn't something you can assume, you've chosen a poor example. Vladivostok gets mostly sub-Arctic weather which is much harsher than Portland. When you have a really cold airstream coming off quite cold lands, you can get loads of snow all winter. If you go up north in the province there and look out on the ocean, you can get free floating ice in the winter as well.

But its not Arctic Tundra like people believe. Everything you said about Vladivostok can be said about Boston -- it has more to do with ocean currents than latitude. And the weather in the Northern MidWest of the USA is even harsher during winter. The point is not that Siberia is a sub-tropical paradise with beaches like Mexico, only that it is not a winter wasteland like many believe. It is has been waiting for development, the Russian government has been struggling to get Russians to go and develop it, and so far progress has been slow.

If Russia cannot get Russians to 'Go East Young Man!' and they don't open up the region to legal immigrants from all around the world, then they are going to get stuck with millions of illegal immigrants from China. Which may not be such a bad thing if Russia can assimilate them. That was my point.

Pat
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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #433 on: March 14, 2022, 12:07:30 PM »
After watching clips from viral videos of Chinese school children aggressively chanting a list of weapons the Ukraine inherited from the Soviet Union, I think Vladivostok is safe, at least for the near future.

Internationally, China is being somewhat moderate. But on their home turf, the propaganda machine is pushing very hard that Ukraine's at fault for not being self-reliant, and embracing the West. "Big Brother Russia needs to bring Younger Brother Ukraine back home. Younger brother, if you make an error on our principles, I will beat you up! But America has always been in the back playing dirty tricks!" Sounds like a prelude to an invasion of Taiwan, doesn't it?

Lynn

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #434 on: March 14, 2022, 12:29:29 PM »
But its not Arctic Tundra like people believe. Everything you said about Vladivostok can be said about Boston -- it has more to do with ocean currents than latitude. And the weather in the Northern MidWest of the USA is even harsher during winter. The point is not that Siberia is a sub-tropical paradise with beaches like Mexico, only that it is not a winter wasteland like many believe. It is has been waiting for development, the Russian government has been struggling to get Russians to go and develop it, and so far progress has been slow.

If Russia cannot get Russians to 'Go East Young Man!' and they don't open up the region to legal immigrants from all around the world, then they are going to get stuck with millions of illegal immigrants from China. Which may not be such a bad thing if Russia can assimilate them. That was my point.
I think people's expectations are set by the imagination and the chilly Russian gulag. It isn't straight up frosty tundra that never seem to thaw out, but its going to be freaking cold much of the year, and really snowy in the winter time. The summers though aren't going to be bad, more like it is in the 'upper' Pacific Northwest and the San Juans (lower Alaska). I spend several years in Hokkaido. Traveling north the distance of the island can take you from freezing to that free floating ice problem through winter and early spring, just like in the region of Vladivostok. Then it gets worse in the Kurils. There used to be quite a big black market trade in used Japanese cars being shipped over to Vladivostok that made some port cities in Hokkaido a bit more...interesting.

The problem though isn't 2-3 weeks of heavy snow and icy streets, but months of both. That puts off even Russians.
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