Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.

[jeff37923]

Good news Ukraine, the Tik-Tok'ers are on the job

Just when I think that humanity can't get any dumber......

[3catcircus]

Good news Ukraine, the Tik-Tok'ers are on the job

Just when I think that humanity can't get any dumber......

Western society is doomed.  Might as well kill everyone under age 50 and start over rather than progress to the point that the movie Idiocracy can be considered a documentary...

[Chris24601]

Good news Ukraine, the Tik-Tok'ers are on the job

Just when I think that humanity can't get any dumber......

Western society is doomed.  Might as well kill everyone under age 50 and start over rather than progress to the point that the movie Idiocracy can be considered a documentary...

To be fair, it's not like everyone under 50 is addicted to this idiocy.

My godkids and honorary nieces/nephews have been kept away from that crap (Home schooling is a beautiful thing). The oldest of them finished all their course work for High School by 16, went to trade school and was already professionally employed in their trade, making good money and owned their own car on their 18th birthday a few months back. The next youngest is en route for the same course. They are, as they say, Based.

Based on what I've seen of the actual numbers the idiocy is coming from the noisiest 10% or less of the population... the same as it's been throughout history. BigTech just magnifies it to make it look like 50, 75 or even 95% of the population.

[jhkim]

Opposing a military invasion that someone else started is not the same thing as starting war after war. Defensive war means that if someone else starts a war by invading another country, then other countries ally to stop it and restore the status quo. If invasions are allowed to continue without opposition, then every would-be conqueror is encouraged and we end up with more war, not less.

All things being equal, you are correct.

But, in my opinion, the current mess in Ukraine is exactly that: One big mess.

All these decades worth of shenanigans in the Ukraine from every player in this debacle begs the question: What does "restore the status quo" in Ukraine really mean?

I don't disagree that it's a mess, but every war is a big mess. That was true of WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait, Afghanistan, etc. For example, the U.S. did a ton of shit in Hawaii prior to the Pearl Harbor attack. But there are still principles that apply. If principles are going to matter at all, then they have to matter in messy real-world cases.

In Ukraine, restoring the status quo means restoring the state prior to the military invasion - i.e. how things were on Feb 23rd. That doesn't mean that all the other shenanigans were OK, but the invasion was definitely *not* OK. Every country should get the message that attempting such an invasion is a huge mistake, and that there is no benefit to doing so. To my mind, that's absolutely vital - and has repercussions far beyond Ukraine itself.

And millions of innocent Ukrainian people are getting screwed while major world powers try to impose their will on the region in the most dangerous war in my lifetime.

I agree that it sucks for the Ukrainians. So what do you suggest is best to do for the Ukrainians right now? I had previously suggested donating to the charity, United Help Ukraine - which is the highest rating in Charity Navigator, has an established reputation, and has transparency about where their money goes.

https://unitedhelpukraine.org/

My church is also encouraging donations to the Hungarian Unitarian church which is working to help refugees, but that's Unitarian specific, so I'm not necessarily suggesting that for others.

Beyond individual charities, I dislike token moves that are just for show - but I think economic sanctions that actually have an effect are good - both for Ukrainians and for world peace. Letting invasions succeed and thrive is just asking for more trouble in the future. It is like paying off terrorist demands, which encourages more terrorism.

[DocJones]

The most likely ways I see this resolved is if Putin is internally deposed (could happen) or Ukraine as a subjegated state (demanding disarmament and neutrality after killing the people there is demanding they live in fear of you, with nobody else to turn to except for security except for you, their abuser), and Russia as a rogue state akin to North Korea (but the sanctions on it would weaken over time). I don't see this becoming an occupation because killing everybody in the area is much cheaper.

I dont see Putin wanting to kill everybody.  The war would probably have been a lot quicker if that was the case.

Just as an observation, I could not help but notice that Russia started shelling civilian areas hard
after many media stories and videos talking about Ukraine arming civilians with guns and Molotov cocktails. 
One of the "laws" of war (if there are any) is that combatants are required to distinguish themselves from
non-combatants in order to prevent attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure. 
If Ukraine fails in this, are not civilian infrastructure fair targets?

[oggsmash]

The most likely ways I see this resolved is if Putin is internally deposed (could happen) or Ukraine as a subjegated state (demanding disarmament and neutrality after killing the people there is demanding they live in fear of you, with nobody else to turn to except for security except for you, their abuser), and Russia as a rogue state akin to North Korea (but the sanctions on it would weaken over time). I don't see this becoming an occupation because killing everybody in the area is much cheaper.

I dont see Putin wanting to kill everybody.  The war would probably have been a lot quicker if that was the case.

Just as an observation, I could not help but notice that Russia started shelling civilian areas hard
after many media stories and videos talking about Ukraine arming civilians with guns and Molotov cocktails. 
One of the "laws" of war (if there are any) is that combatants are required to distinguish themselves from
non-combatants in order to prevent attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure. 
If Ukraine fails in this, are not civilian infrastructure fair targets?

   Yeah this is going to be a case where propaganda bites them in the ass.  Best results are a quick surrender and capitulate to best terms he can get so Zelensky can get back to taking and passing out bags of money for the money laundering center of the West.   Fighting "to the death" is going to end badly for many, many, many more Ukrainians.  This squabble likely has hurt Putin no matter what, even if he gets the no NATO agreements he wants.  NATO and the west can get back to going back on their word later on, maybe after Putin leaves or dies.

[Shrieking Banshee]

If Ukraine fails in this, are not civilian infrastructure fair targets?

Thats such an unbelievably stupid argument. Ukraine is a country of 44 Million people and 25-50 thousand where given weapons (with no evidence of mass participation in warfare).

If you believe that Russia only started harming civilians once they started attacking them on mass then I have a deed for the state of New York id like to sell you.

Best results are a quick surrender and capitulate.

Good to see we have a precognicant psychic on our hands. Why doesn't just everybody just capitulate to threats and violence. Im under no delusion of Ukraines chances, and Zelenksy is a piece of shit, but that doesn't make every cause in the world not worth fighting for.

Conquest/war is the biggest social uniter in Russia (except maybe alchoholism). Russians as a whole can wether a whole lot of bullshit if they can get the glory of conquest. Even if it means conquering an ashpit by people that will fight your occupation.
The easier this happens, the more encouraged they will be to do it again. Putin will never leave until he is killed, and his successor will have no motivation not to do this again.

The national zeal in Russia, is that Ukraine/ex-imperial states just 'belong' to Russia, and their succession is just an aberration.

[oggsmash]

If Ukraine fails in this, are not civilian infrastructure fair targets?

Thats such an unbelievably stupid argument. Ukraine is a country of 44 Million people and 25-50 thousand where given weapons (with no evidence of mass participation in warfare).

If you believe that Russia only started harming civilians once they started attacking them on mass then I have a deed for the state of New York id like to sell you.

Best results are a quick surrender and capitulate.

Good to see we have a precognicant psychic on our hands. Why doesn't any anybody just capitulate to threats and violence. Im under no delusion of Ukraines chances, and Zelenksy is a piece of shit, but that doesn't make every cause in the world not worth fighting for.

Conquest/war is the biggest social uniter in Russia (except maybe alchoholism). Russians as a whole can wether a whole lot of bullshit if they can get the glory of conquest. Even if it means conquering an ashpit by people that will fight your occupation.
The easier this happens, the more encouraged they will be to do it again. Putin will never leave until he is killed, and his successor will have no motivation not to do this again.

The national zeal in Russia, is that Ukraine/ex-imperial states just 'belong' to Russia, and their succession is just an aberration.

  I did a math problem.  Not a future reading problem.  Fighting, in real war conditions does kill people, and in brutal fashion.    If Putin continues to escalate, all the pictures people can post with granny holding a gun is only going to get people killed.  I am not saying Ukrainians should not fight, I just said where the math works out best for them.    It is not as if Ukraine was hitting on all cylinders economically before this.  But if you think they are better off fighting to the end, so be it.

[Shrieking Banshee]

If Putin continues to escalate, all the pictures people can post with granny holding a gun is only going to get people killed.

As evidenced by? Russia has its own internal propaganda arm. Thats like saying all these people stepping on cracks is going to get people killed.
Fighting back is whats going to get people killed. Or being in the way is going to get people killed.
There are absolutely no white hats in this scenario, but the devil needs no advocate when he has the superior military force.

Like anything else, its easy to give comments about a situation when it doesn't affect you. I never truly cared about wars until this one.

It is not as if Ukraine was hitting on all cylinders economically before this.

.....What does that have to do with anything? If your poor - don't protect your home? Just let them take what they want?

[oggsmash]

   It does affect me, it affects the whole world.  I never said russia isnt churning propaganda like crazy.  So your position is what then?  Fight it out to the end?  OR would you rather Zelensky bend the knee and all those people who would other wise die, get to live? 

[Shrieking Banshee]

It does affect me, it affects the whole world.

Oh your the omniscence spirit of the world. Now I understand.

OR would you rather Zelensky bend the knee and all those people who would other wise die, get to live?

So is that your position on anything that involves threats of violence?

So your position is what then?

I don't know. Both will suck. Russia will probably win eventually either way, but neither situation is good at all. Living in fear is a toxic way to live. If Russia wins, it will demand complete disarment, meaning it can just keep doing this if it wants, because to them it would be a big morale booster.

[Pat]

I think we can all agree that banning Russian streamers from Twitch and OnlyFans is the best way to end the war.

[oggsmash]

It does affect me, it affects the whole world.

Oh your the omniscence spirit of the world. Now I understand.

OR would you rather Zelensky bend the knee and all those people who would other wise die, get to live?

So is that your position on anything that involves threats of violence?

  Nope.  I enjoy violence on a personal level.  I have spent a lifetime trying to temper that into a few activities that would keep me out of prison.  I also know that most people just do not have it in them, and lots and lots of people are going to die if they keep going.  How many lives is it worth for Zelensky to hold out and never make an agreement around NATO?

[oggsmash]

I don't know. Both will suck. Russia will probably win eventually either way, but neither situation is good at all. Living in fear is a toxic way to live. If Russia wins, it will demand complete disarment, meaning it can just keep doing this if it wants, because to them it would be a big morale booster.

  That is a fair assessment, and one I agree with 100 percent.  I only made a calculation on loss of life, not what happens after.

[Pat]

It does affect me, it affects the whole world.

Oh your the omniscence spirit of the world. Now I understand.

OR would you rather Zelensky bend the knee and all those people who would other wise die, get to live?

So is that your position on anything that involves threats of violence?

So your position is what then?

I don't know. Both will suck. Russia will probably win eventually either way, but neither situation is good at all. Living in fear is a toxic way to live. If Russia wins, it will demand complete disarment, meaning it can just keep doing this if it wants, because to them it would be a big morale booster.

If Russia wins that completely, the West will lose all credibility. They put way too much prestige at stake.

That will not be good for the future of Taiwan, or more generally the West Pacific.