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Author Topic: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.  (Read 100851 times)

Mistwell

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #345 on: March 10, 2022, 01:34:11 PM »
"Interventionism is the moral and not lazy position!" Mistwell 2022

"Lying about what other people said in quotes like it's real!" GeekyBugle 2022.

You and Jaeger of two of a kind. Both liars and frauds. Doesn't matter what people actually say. Just make some shit up and claim it as fact!

Didn't you say that "Isolationism was immoral AND lazy"?

Yes I did. Which does not in fact mean Interventionism is moral. Indeed, what I said was it depends on the circumstances. Which is in no way me saying "Interventionism is moral!" You lazy, lying fuck.

Quote
So, there's a third position? And you haven't been beating the drums of interventionism?

Yes of course there is a third position - the non-extremist one which does not paint the world as just black or white. I have not been beating the drums for interventionism and SAID THE COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS ON UKRAINE IS WE SHOULD NOT INTERVENE MILITARILY. I said it in this thread not long after the post you're talking about. So, did you see that and unethically pretended I didn't, or were you just lazy and didn't look? One or the other buddy.

Pat
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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #346 on: March 10, 2022, 01:35:51 PM »
There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What's far fewer than "almost none"? A battalion?

GeekyBugle

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #347 on: March 10, 2022, 01:43:26 PM »
"Interventionism is the moral and not lazy position!" Mistwell 2022

"Lying about what other people said in quotes like it's real!" GeekyBugle 2022.

You and Jaeger of two of a kind. Both liars and frauds. Doesn't matter what people actually say. Just make some shit up and claim it as fact!

Didn't you say that "Isolationism was immoral AND lazy"?

Yes I did. Which does not in fact mean Interventionism is moral. Indeed, what I said was it depends on the circumstances. Which is in no way me saying "Interventionism is moral!" You lazy, lying fuck.

Quote
So, there's a third position? And you haven't been beating the drums of interventionism?

Yes of course there is a third position - the non-extremist one which does not paint the world as just black or white. I have not been beating the drums for interventionism and SAID THE COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS ON UKRAINE IS WE SHOULD NOT INTERVENE MILITARILY. I said it in this thread not long after the post you're talking about. So, did you see that and unethically pretended I didn't, or were you just lazy and didn't look? One or the other buddy.

So, you're basing your "non-Interventionism" on a cost benefit analysis and not on a moral basis, and yet those who say non-interventionism is the way to go are immoral AND lazy even when they are making the exact same analysis and weghing the US citizens interests and lifes and their math ends up with non-interventionism. But theirs is immoral and lazy but your's is not because reasons.

Also, that's not a third position dumbass. But you claim it is because reasons.

Yes, I'm the one saying it's black & white when I'm the one saying it's not and there's no white hats there. Dude, I'm an autist not an idiot.
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #348 on: March 10, 2022, 01:49:39 PM »


It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.

There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.

Did you watch the video? Ukranian soldiers waving nazi flags, school children having nazi theater plays, even NATO accidentally posted a picture of a stronk independent neo-nazi wahmen.

Going by population size one would expect to see way less neo-nazis in Ukraine then the US or Russia. And yet you have the Ukranian president honoring a neo-nazi as hero of the nation, and an army battallion made up off neo-nazis.

Once more, this doesn't mean Russia are the good guys, but it sure means neither is Ukraine.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

Mistwell

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #349 on: March 10, 2022, 02:00:27 PM »
"Interventionism is the moral and not lazy position!" Mistwell 2022

"Lying about what other people said in quotes like it's real!" GeekyBugle 2022.

You and Jaeger of two of a kind. Both liars and frauds. Doesn't matter what people actually say. Just make some shit up and claim it as fact!

Didn't you say that "Isolationism was immoral AND lazy"?

Yes I did. Which does not in fact mean Interventionism is moral. Indeed, what I said was it depends on the circumstances. Which is in no way me saying "Interventionism is moral!" You lazy, lying fuck.

Quote
So, there's a third position? And you haven't been beating the drums of interventionism?

Yes of course there is a third position - the non-extremist one which does not paint the world as just black or white. I have not been beating the drums for interventionism and SAID THE COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS ON UKRAINE IS WE SHOULD NOT INTERVENE MILITARILY. I said it in this thread not long after the post you're talking about. So, did you see that and unethically pretended I didn't, or were you just lazy and didn't look? One or the other buddy.

So, you're basing your "non-Interventionism" on a cost benefit analysis and not on a moral basis, and yet those who say non-interventionism is the way to go are immoral AND lazy even when they are making the exact same analysis and weghing the US citizens interests and lifes and their math ends up with non-interventionism. But theirs is immoral and lazy but your's is not because reasons.

Also, that's not a third position dumbass. But you claim it is because reasons.

Yes, I'm the one saying it's black & white when I'm the one saying it's not and there's no white hats there. Dude, I'm an autist not an idiot.

No I am not basing it purely on cost benefit analysis and if you actually look at the post in question (which you didn't) I specifically said it has to both pass the moral test for intervention AND the cost benefit analysis for intervention. I guess I am at the point where I can say you're lazy because you're still not willing to even look at what I said?

Here, yah lazy fuck. And don't pretend being on the spectrum makes it harder for you to look back at what someone said before responding to it. You're no victim here:

Regarding Interventionism… I don’t think failing to intervene is inherently evil because things are rarely that clear-cut. Just running into a hostage situation with guns blazing and no idea who is who and where they are is intervention… but it’s stupid and will likely get at least some of the very people you’re supposed to be trying to save killed; possibly even by you as one of them pops up from cover to run for the exit and had the misfortune of wearing a black coat while the hostage takers were wearing black hoodies.

Rather, the moral standard for intervention should be a bit like that of a doctor’s oath… “Don’t cause more problems than you’re trying to solve.”

You say we should intervene in Ukraine? Okay, tell us how. Tell us what is hoped to be gained. Tell us the expected costs. Tell us the realistic case and worst case consequences. If the outlined plan doesn’t make things worse, it’s something I’m amenable to. If it’s just “send over a bunch of our soldiers over to drag us all into WW3” then I suggest booking yourself a flight over there and volunteering for the front line first.

I agree with you. To put it coldly, it's a cost benefit analysis first. Will intervention result in more harm than benefit to the world is the first question. The second question is whether intervention is morally justified in itself. But if you're going to end up with WW3 out of it, then the first question says you don't militarily intervene even if it would be morally just to do so, and you find other ways to help short of military intervention.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2022, 02:02:10 PM by Mistwell »

Mistwell

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #350 on: March 10, 2022, 02:07:01 PM »


It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.

There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.

Did you watch the video? Ukranian soldiers waving nazi flags, school children having nazi theater plays, even NATO accidentally posted a picture of a stronk independent neo-nazi wahmen.

Going by population size one would expect to see way less neo-nazis in Ukraine then the US or Russia. And yet you have the Ukranian president honoring a neo-nazi as hero of the nation, and an army battallion made up off neo-nazis.

Once more, this doesn't mean Russia are the good guys, but it sure means neither is Ukraine.

The party which the neo-nazis contingent supports (which itself is far from all neo-nazi in support) got 2% of the vote in Ukraine during the last election, and have ONE small national guard military unit (which isn't all neo-nazi itself, that's just where most flocked). That percent of vote is less than they got in France and Germany, for comparison.

However, Russia's FSB has been using that less-than-2% and that one small military group and promoting it through propaganda to pretend it's representative of Ukraine and their military when it's not.

And here you are, passing on their propaganda like a good little Commie stooge.

Ghostmaker

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #351 on: March 10, 2022, 02:08:58 PM »


It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.

There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.

Did you watch the video? Ukranian soldiers waving nazi flags, school children having nazi theater plays, even NATO accidentally posted a picture of a stronk independent neo-nazi wahmen.

Going by population size one would expect to see way less neo-nazis in Ukraine then the US or Russia. And yet you have the Ukranian president honoring a neo-nazi as hero of the nation, and an army battallion made up off neo-nazis.

Once more, this doesn't mean Russia are the good guys, but it sure means neither is Ukraine.
Wasn't the Azov Battalion founded by a Jewish guy? Those are some damned weird neo-Nazis if that's the case.

HappyDaze

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #352 on: March 10, 2022, 02:20:29 PM »


It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.

There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What you call 'worrisome' has been fairly common behavior here for a long while now.

Lynn

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #353 on: March 10, 2022, 02:39:28 PM »
Id say they had more public prominence (for a while) then in Russia or United States. But does a bunch of neo-nazis larping in the forest justify shelling civilian sections?
If you didn't want to arm Ukraine there are much much much better reasons then 'A micro segment of the population are neo-nazis'.
Russia keeps a lid on such things because ultra-nationalists have their uses. There can be fine lines between ultra-nationalist and neo-nazis as well, and the latter referring to themselves as the former is one way to survive. Russian National Unity, a real Neo-Nazi group, is even active now in Donbas and directed there by Russia. It is a credit to local governments in Russia that the RNU is banned,  but that hasn't stopped Putin from making use of them.
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Lynn

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #354 on: March 10, 2022, 02:42:21 PM »

It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.

There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What you call 'worrisome' has been fairly common behavior here for a long while now.
Where's here? You are talking about the behavior of these Lotuseater podcasters commenting without research? That's absolutely true.
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Shasarak

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #355 on: March 10, 2022, 03:33:58 PM »
Why is no one rounding up all the Antifa groups to send to the Ukraine to fight real Neo-Nazis?
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HappyDaze

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #356 on: March 10, 2022, 03:43:42 PM »

It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.

There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What you call 'worrisome' has been fairly common behavior here for a long while now.
Where's here? You are talking about the behavior of these Lotuseater podcasters commenting without research? That's absolutely true.
I'm commenting on the habits of many posters to confuse the presentations of their entertainers with being credible sources. Then they try to deflect criticism with "just watch the video" and similar idiocy.

Shasarak

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #357 on: March 10, 2022, 04:05:40 PM »

It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.

There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
What you call 'worrisome' has been fairly common behavior here for a long while now.
Where's here? You are talking about the behavior of these Lotuseater podcasters commenting without research? That's absolutely true.
I'm commenting on the habits of many posters to confuse the presentations of their entertainers with being credible sources. Then they try to deflect criticism with "just watch the video" and similar idiocy.

HappyDaze is not talking about your favourite news source though.

They are actually credible sources.
Who da Drow?  U da drow! - hedgehobbit

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pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

Pat
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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #358 on: March 10, 2022, 04:17:15 PM »
Why is no one rounding up all the Antifa groups to send to the Ukraine to fight real Neo-Nazis?
Because they finally decided to take their "bash the fash" slogan seriously, and started hitting themselves.

jhkim

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #359 on: March 10, 2022, 04:19:49 PM »
Why should we avoid foreign entanglements?

Because this is what following the ideal of “X could have been prevented sooner.” really means:

Herr Hitler killed a lot of people in the Holocaust:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
The Holocaust was "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators".

But any objective look at history shows that Hitler was a firm third place compared to the real masters of the game: Stalin and Mao…
And you would have had the US intervene in all of that because it would have been the “Ethical” thing to do...

Making ourselves the World Police because: “Isolationism is unethical.” Is the height of moral arrogance, and would dooms us to endless perpetual warfare.

The cost in American lives and resources would be even more orders of magnitude staggering than it has already been…
 
Neocon Interventionism = Bloodthirsty Lunacy.

In general, I agree with you about most of American interventionism. The U.S. has been very prone to war through most of its history, and I oppose that. I've been to anti-war protests for Iraq and Yemen in particular, and in general have been opposed to hawkish interventionism. However, it seems like you're implying that the Allies should not have gone to war against Hitler, and that it was bloodthirsty lunacy to do so.

First of all, going to war against Nazi Germany was not about stopping the Holocaust. It was because Nazi Germany had expanded its military to dominate and conquer country after country: Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, etc.

Opposing a military invasion that someone else started is not the same thing as starting war after war. Defensive war means that if someone else starts a war by invading another country, then other countries ally to stop it and restore the status quo. If invasions are allowed to continue without opposition, then every would-be conqueror is encouraged and we end up with more war, not less.

---

As another note - you talk about "Neocon Interventionism", and I'd like to clarify about terms. Wikipedia on neoconservatism says:

Quote
Neoconservatism is a political movement that was born in the United States during the 1960s among liberal hawks who became disenchanted with the increasingly pacifist foreign policy of the Democratic Party and with the growing New Left and counterculture of the 1960s, particularly the Vietnam protests. Some also began to question their liberal beliefs regarding domestic policies such as the Great Society. Neoconservatives typically advocate the promotion of democracy and interventionism in international affairs, including peace through strength, and are known for espousing disdain for communism and political radicalism.

Prominent neoconservatives in the George W. Bush administration included Paul Wolfowitz, Elliott Abrams, Richard Perle and Paul Bremer. While not identifying as neoconservatives, senior officials Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld listened closely to neoconservative advisers regarding foreign policy, especially the defense of Israel and the promotion of American influence in the Middle East.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism


So the neocons were liberals who jumped from the Democrats to Republicans in order to stay hawkish. But traditional conservatives like Nixon and Reagan have been just as hawkish as neocons. So I'd describe this as "American interventionism" - rather than associating it specifically with neocons.