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Author Topic: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.  (Read 100878 times)

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #330 on: March 08, 2022, 10:10:50 PM »
Corruption and broken institutions are the norm, not the exception. It's one of the key reasons why the US is still so competitive, despite shooting itself in the foot so many times. Other countries are typically much worse when it comes to corruption, rule of law, trust, and the other basics that underlie a thriving economy.
Pretty much. Its like magic.

Quote
To reference SB's comment, if it helps forge a national identity, there's a chance this war might have some positive effects for Ukraine in the long run.

I hope so. If Ukraine can get some concessions out of Russia, it would be a big deal. Ukraines national identity for the past....500 years? Has been 'Buffer state to Russia'.

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #331 on: March 08, 2022, 10:53:54 PM »

I hope so. If Ukraine can get some concessions out of Russia, it would be a big deal. Ukraines national identity for the past....500 years? Has been 'Buffer state to Russia'.
If Ukraine really wants to piss off Russia, they should rename themselves Kyivan Rus, and declare Russia to be an illegitimate breakaway state.

Shasarak

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #332 on: March 08, 2022, 11:15:36 PM »

I hope so. If Ukraine can get some concessions out of Russia, it would be a big deal. Ukraines national identity for the past....500 years? Has been 'Buffer state to Russia'.
If Ukraine really wants to piss off Russia, they should rename themselves Kyivan Rus, and declare Russia to be an illegitimate breakaway state.

You mean like West Taiwan?
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pathetically struggling,
look at the good things you've got! -  Jesus

Pat
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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #333 on: March 08, 2022, 11:35:00 PM »

I hope so. If Ukraine can get some concessions out of Russia, it would be a big deal. Ukraines national identity for the past....500 years? Has been 'Buffer state to Russia'.
If Ukraine really wants to piss off Russia, they should rename themselves Kyivan Rus, and declare Russia to be an illegitimate breakaway state.

You mean like West Taiwan?
That's my favorite.

Lynn

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #334 on: March 09, 2022, 03:13:30 AM »
Corruption and a lack of national identity. This is why cultural ties are so important.
National identity got a big boost after the invasion and annexation of Crimea and the machinations of Putin in Donbas since. Some Pro-Russia Ethnic Russians (not all ethnic Russian Ukrainians are supportive of Russia) aren't happy with the push towards a Ukrainian identity and language but that hasn't been sufficient to stop changes in government there.

Ukraine still has a corruption problem, but it has improved quite a bit in the meantime.
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Wrath of God

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #335 on: March 09, 2022, 09:00:49 AM »
Quote
If Ukraine really wants to piss off Russia, they should rename themselves Kyivan Rus, and declare Russia to be an illegitimate breakaway state.

This. (TBH If they want to go very Trad - They should rename themselves as Princedom of Rus with Great Princedom of Kiev being main province).

Quote
I hope so. If Ukraine can get some concessions out of Russia, it would be a big deal. Ukraines national identity for the past....500 years? Has been 'Buffer state to Russia'.

Ukraine as sense of separate nationality for Crown Rusyans exists about from XIX century? Before that there was generally one Rusyan identity in ethnic terms with different state identities. That's why Belarus for instance use Great Duchy of Lithuania symbolics, because one of aspects of Lukashenko policy is portraying Belarus as successor to GDL.
And Russia held Ukraine proper (ergo Great Princedom of Kiev, and Princedom of Chernihov) for about 300 years (including Soviet times). For most of this part it was simply part of Russia without any buffer state qualities.
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Jaeger

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #336 on: March 09, 2022, 05:33:30 PM »
More to chew on in the vein of THERE ARE NO WHITE HATS HERE...

"The envious are not satisfied with equality; they secretly yearn for superiority and revenge."

Mistwell

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #337 on: March 09, 2022, 10:10:11 PM »
More to chew on in the vein of THERE ARE NO WHITE HATS HERE...



Russia is a significantly worse wrongdoer in this situation and you're finding excuses to not call them out on it by hyper focusing on any ammo you can locate to emphasize Ukraine as not good or the US as not good while not applying that same standard to Russia. Because if you did, the score would be 100 to 1 in showing Russia is much worse than Ukraine or the US in all this. You're treating it like "Well hey, as long as a few bad acts can be accounted to one side, I can safely just dismiss all parties as bad and wash my hands of it."

It's a cowardly and lazy position.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2022, 10:12:07 PM by Mistwell »

Jaeger

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #338 on: March 09, 2022, 11:03:54 PM »
...
Russia is a significantly worse wrongdoer in this situation and you're finding excuses to not call them out on it by hyper focusing on any ammo you can locate to emphasize Ukraine as not good or the US as not good while not applying that same standard to Russia. Because if you did, the score would be 100 to 1 in showing Russia is much worse than Ukraine or the US in all this. You're treating it like "Well hey, as long as a few bad acts can be accounted to one side, I can safely just dismiss all parties as bad and wash my hands of it."

It's a cowardly and lazy position.

LOL... Can you make it any more obvious that you didn't watch the video!  The guy speaking is far from a fan of Putin.

And ROTFL at a few bad acts by all sides...

More disingenuous words of a warmongering shill that still thinks 'Team America World Police' is a good idea.

I'm applying the same standards to everyone involved.


You're the one spouting puerile nonsense like this:

My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.
...

That is nothing less than a horrific emotionally driven appeal for perpetual war.

George Washington spoke with Great Wisdom:
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp
Quote
...
   Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.
   The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.
   Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people under an efficient government. the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality, we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.
   Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice? ...


Why should we avoid foreign entanglements?

Because this is what following the ideal of “X could have been prevented sooner.” really means:

Herr Hitler killed a lot of people in the Holocaust:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
The Holocaust was "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators".

But any objective look at history shows that Hitler was a firm third place compared to the real masters of the game: Stalin and Mao…

There was the Holodomor of 1932 to 1933
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
Where the Russian Commies committed mass genocide and killed around 3.5 million Ukrainians by starving them to death.

Then Stalin was all like: “Yes, not a bad start comrades, but I know that I can do better…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin#:~:text=In%202011%2C%20after%20assessing%20twenty,policies%20are%20taken%20into%20account.

Soviet Gulags: 1.6 million deaths during the whole period from 1929 to 1953.
The Soviet famine of 1932–1933: Add another 2-6 million dead on top of the Holodomor.
Judicial executions for political charges from 1929–53: According to official figures there were 777,975.
The Soviet famine of 1946–1947: An estimated 1 to 1.5 million lives lost.
Population transfer by the Soviet Union: The reported number of kulaks and their relatives who had died in labour colonies from 1932 to 1940 was 389,521.
According to Soviet archives, the heaviest mortality rate was documented in people from the Northern Caucasus (the Chechens, Ingush) with 144,704 deaths, or 24.7% of the entire deported population, as well as 44,125 deaths from Crimea, or a 19.3% mortality rate.
Katyn massacre: The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000.
Number of deaths of people by Stalinism, 1924–1953: Total estimated at somewhere around 7,231,000–9,551,000

Then Mao Zedong was all like: “Not bad for a bunch of round-eyed barbarians; here, hold my tea…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward
From 1958 to 1962. Chairman Mao Zedong launched the campaign to reconstruct the country from an agrarian economy into a communist society through the formation of people's communes. Mao decreed that efforts to multiply grain yields and bring industry to the countryside should be increased. Local officials were fearful of Anti-Rightist Campaigns and they competed to fulfill or over-fulfill quotas which were based on Mao's exaggerated claims, collecting non-existent "surpluses" and leaving farmers to starve.
Millions of people died in China during the Great Leap, with estimates ranging from 15 to 55 million.

The Greatest Mass Murder in History
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/08/03/giving-historys-greatest-mass-murderer-his-due/

Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge in Cambodia didn’t want to be left behind, and they did the best that they could:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide
By January 1979, 1.5 to 2 million people had died due to the Khmer Rouge's policies.

Then the Rwandan’s had their day in the Sun:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide
The most widely accepted scholarly estimates are around 500,000 to 800,000 Tutsi deaths.

And the list goes on…

Just go HERE: Genocides in history (after World War II)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history_(after_World_War_II)

Funnily enough they don’t list that one time starting in 2003 that the American Military killed 100 to 200,000 Iraqi civilians for no reason whatsoever.

Because: “WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN IRAQ!”


And you would have had the US intervene in all of that because it would have been the “Ethical” thing to do...

Making ourselves the World Police because: “Isolationism is unethical.” Is the height of moral arrogance, and would dooms us to endless perpetual warfare.

The cost in American lives and resources would be even more orders of magnitude staggering than it has already been…
 
Neocon Interventionism = Bloodthirsty Lunacy.


And Millions of innocent Ukrainian civilians are being fucked over because foreign nations on a power trip against each other can't keep it in their pants.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2022, 11:17:27 PM by Jaeger »
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #339 on: March 10, 2022, 11:57:00 AM »
"Interventionism is the moral and not lazy position!" Mistwell 2022

So we need to send weapons to Ukraine and arm all the Neo-Nazis... Wait what?

(Not saying Russia is in the right here, just pointing out things aren't Black&White and probably there's no White Hats here.)

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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

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Lynn

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #340 on: March 10, 2022, 01:07:44 PM »


It is worrisome that these guys are relying on social media posts without apparently doing any further research. Russia has had an active social media disinformation campaign going against Ukraine since 2014 that not only fabricate news, but also take existing reported information and respin it.

There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.
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Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #341 on: March 10, 2022, 01:12:25 PM »
There are some neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They had a tiny influence in 2014 and have had significantly less since. I reckon there are far, far fewer in Ukraine than in the Russia or the United States.

Id say they had mor public prominence (for a while) then in Russia or United States. But does a bunch of neo-nazis larping in the forest justify shelling civilian sections?
If you didn't want to arm Ukraine there are much much much better reasons then 'A micro segment of the population are neo-nazis'.

Mistwell

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #342 on: March 10, 2022, 01:15:24 PM »
...
Russia is a significantly worse wrongdoer in this situation and you're finding excuses to not call them out on it by hyper focusing on any ammo you can locate to emphasize Ukraine as not good or the US as not good while not applying that same standard to Russia. Because if you did, the score would be 100 to 1 in showing Russia is much worse than Ukraine or the US in all this. You're treating it like "Well hey, as long as a few bad acts can be accounted to one side, I can safely just dismiss all parties as bad and wash my hands of it."

It's a cowardly and lazy position.

LOL... Can you make it any more obvious that you didn't watch the video!  The guy speaking is far from a fan of Putin.

And ROTFL at a few bad acts by all sides...

More disingenuous words of a warmongering shill that still thinks 'Team America World Police' is a good idea.

I'm applying the same standards to everyone involved.


You're the one spouting puerile nonsense like this:

My family was slaughtered by Nazis at a time where other nations knew about it, had the power to stop it, and decided to not stop it due to isolationism. You can F yourself on my being "unfair" to people with "different beliefs." It's OK to judge some beliefs as bad based on the impact they have on other people. Isolationism is unethical. Inherently so. It says no matter how bad something gets, no matter how easily you can stop it from happening, you're not to intervene based on that principal and that principal alone. That's unethical no matter how you spin it or no matter how you feel about it.
...

That is nothing less than a horrific emotionally driven appeal for perpetual war.

George Washington spoke with Great Wisdom:
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp
Quote
...
   Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.
   The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.
   Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people under an efficient government. the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality, we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.
   Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice? ...


Why should we avoid foreign entanglements?

Because this is what following the ideal of “X could have been prevented sooner.” really means:

Herr Hitler killed a lot of people in the Holocaust:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
The Holocaust was "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators".

But any objective look at history shows that Hitler was a firm third place compared to the real masters of the game: Stalin and Mao…

There was the Holodomor of 1932 to 1933
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
Where the Russian Commies committed mass genocide and killed around 3.5 million Ukrainians by starving them to death.

Then Stalin was all like: “Yes, not a bad start comrades, but I know that I can do better…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin#:~:text=In%202011%2C%20after%20assessing%20twenty,policies%20are%20taken%20into%20account.

Soviet Gulags: 1.6 million deaths during the whole period from 1929 to 1953.
The Soviet famine of 1932–1933: Add another 2-6 million dead on top of the Holodomor.
Judicial executions for political charges from 1929–53: According to official figures there were 777,975.
The Soviet famine of 1946–1947: An estimated 1 to 1.5 million lives lost.
Population transfer by the Soviet Union: The reported number of kulaks and their relatives who had died in labour colonies from 1932 to 1940 was 389,521.
According to Soviet archives, the heaviest mortality rate was documented in people from the Northern Caucasus (the Chechens, Ingush) with 144,704 deaths, or 24.7% of the entire deported population, as well as 44,125 deaths from Crimea, or a 19.3% mortality rate.
Katyn massacre: The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000.
Number of deaths of people by Stalinism, 1924–1953: Total estimated at somewhere around 7,231,000–9,551,000

Then Mao Zedong was all like: “Not bad for a bunch of round-eyed barbarians; here, hold my tea…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward
From 1958 to 1962. Chairman Mao Zedong launched the campaign to reconstruct the country from an agrarian economy into a communist society through the formation of people's communes. Mao decreed that efforts to multiply grain yields and bring industry to the countryside should be increased. Local officials were fearful of Anti-Rightist Campaigns and they competed to fulfill or over-fulfill quotas which were based on Mao's exaggerated claims, collecting non-existent "surpluses" and leaving farmers to starve.
Millions of people died in China during the Great Leap, with estimates ranging from 15 to 55 million.

The Greatest Mass Murder in History
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/08/03/giving-historys-greatest-mass-murderer-his-due/

Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge in Cambodia didn’t want to be left behind, and they did the best that they could:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide
By January 1979, 1.5 to 2 million people had died due to the Khmer Rouge's policies.

Then the Rwandan’s had their day in the Sun:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide
The most widely accepted scholarly estimates are around 500,000 to 800,000 Tutsi deaths.

And the list goes on…

Just go HERE: Genocides in history (after World War II)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history_(after_World_War_II)

Funnily enough they don’t list that one time starting in 2003 that the American Military killed 100 to 200,000 Iraqi civilians for no reason whatsoever.

Because: “WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN IRAQ!”


And you would have had the US intervene in all of that because it would have been the “Ethical” thing to do...

Making ourselves the World Police because: “Isolationism is unethical.” Is the height of moral arrogance, and would dooms us to endless perpetual warfare.

The cost in American lives and resources would be even more orders of magnitude staggering than it has already been…
 
Neocon Interventionism = Bloodthirsty Lunacy.


And Millions of innocent Ukrainian civilians are being fucked over because foreign nations on a power trip against each other can't keep it in their pants.

You know how easy it is to show you're unethical? Because you cut the second part of what I said, intentionally, which talked about how it depends on the circumstances.

The only reason to do that is because you wanted to spin what I was saying as me being pro-war and pro-intervention all the time. As opposed to what I actually said which was a blanket isolationism which doesn't ever ask if this is the exceptional circumstance where we should make the very rare decision to intervene is what I consider unethical.

You're a fraud Jaeger. A liar, and a fraud. This is your M.O. though. You take a position, and then if someone dares refute it, you take what they said back out of context and lie about it to make yourself feel better about your position. It's not genuine. You're not some internet badass. You're just a cowardly fraud.

Mistwell

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #343 on: March 10, 2022, 01:16:32 PM »
"Interventionism is the moral and not lazy position!" Mistwell 2022

"Lying about what other people said in quotes like it's real!" GeekyBugle 2022.

You and Jaeger of two of a kind. Both liars and frauds. Doesn't matter what people actually say. Just make some shit up and claim it as fact!

GeekyBugle

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Re: Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.
« Reply #344 on: March 10, 2022, 01:19:52 PM »
"Interventionism is the moral and not lazy position!" Mistwell 2022

"Lying about what other people said in quotes like it's real!" GeekyBugle 2022.

You and Jaeger of two of a kind. Both liars and frauds. Doesn't matter what people actually say. Just make some shit up and claim it as fact!

Didn't you say that "Isolationism was immoral AND lazy"?

So, there's a third position? And you haven't been beating the drums of interventionism?

Fine, whats that third option then asshole?
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell