Ukraine is under attack. It's a full on war.

[Shrieking Banshee]

So I did not mean it in the sense Ukraine needs to get curb stomped as a compromise.

So far most of the equipment military aid has been EU.
And capitulation for what? Ukraine getting its ass handed to it? Im so sorry this is such a turd for you.
The West should have made better trade deals or not overthrown the elected government to deny the Ukraine to Putin when he was offering money, not mortars.

As I said. I don't want WW3 for Ukraine, but im not sure how this is a Turd for the USA.

[oggsmash]

So I did not mean it in the sense Ukraine needs to get curb stomped as a compromise.

So far most of the equipment military aid has been EU.
And capitulation for what? Ukraine getting its ass handed to it? Im so sorry this is such a turd for you.
The West should have made better trade deals or not overthrown the elected government to deny the Ukraine to Putin when he was offering money, not mortars.

As I said. I don't want WW3 for Ukraine, but im not sure how this is a Turd for the USA.

  The Turd for me, is giving money to other countries, any country, while the budget in the USA has run at a deficit for about 40+ years in a row.   Most equipment is relative.  Stinger missiles are lots of bang for the buck.

[Shrieking Banshee]

  The Turd for me, is giving money to other countries, any country, while the budget in the USA has run at a deficit for about 40+ years in a row.   Most equipment is relative.  Stinger missiles are lots of bang for the buck.

As a United States Citizen, fair enough. Though most of that is medical and welfare related.

Im left with conflicting emotions and desires. I want the USA to stop playing politics with other nations fir at the very least its own good. But I also don't want Ukraine to be taken by force by Russia. But I also want less people to die because I don't see Ukraine getting better after this war. And I don't want Nuclear escalation. But I don't want to return to 1900 style conquest theatrics.

[oggsmash]

  The Turd for me, is giving money to other countries, any country, while the budget in the USA has run at a deficit for about 40+ years in a row.   Most equipment is relative.  Stinger missiles are lots of bang for the buck.

As a United States Citizen, fair enough. Though most of that is medical and welfare related.

Im left with conflicting emotions and desires. I want the USA to stop playing politics with other nations fir at the very least its own good. But I also don't want Ukraine to be taken by force by Russia. But I also want less people to die because I don't see Ukraine getting better after this war. And I don't want Nuclear escalation. But I don't want to return to 1900 style conquest theatrics.

  I would have a different opinion if the USA ran a surplus in the budget as to how generous it should be,  giving away money you do not have though....

  I imagine you are conflicted.  I am too.  I hope it gets resolved with a minimum of lost life, freedom, and property.  I think the issue with referring to 1900 conquest theatrics, is it goes back way further.  It is almost the inevitable consequence of civilization that there is war.   I remember reading Will Durant making a point about the establishment of civilization is establishing what become massive inequalities among people.  It was a point I never considered too deeply, and he made it almost 90 years ago in his first book in his Western Civilization series. 

  I think human nature is the issue with war.  Until that is changed there is always going to be conflict and a struggle (and often the struggles seem more based on wants than needs) for resources that end up culminating in wars.  So I agree on all points that it is a bad situation.

[Ghostmaker]

It's funny you bring up foreign aid as it ties into a theory I've had for a while: that foreign aid (coming out of taxpayer pockets, mind you) has been a scam in many cases, the money laundered through those countries and routed back into 'connected' pockets in the Beltway.

[oggsmash]

It's funny you bring up foreign aid as it ties into a theory I've had for a while: that foreign aid (coming out of taxpayer pockets, mind you) has been a scam in many cases, the money laundered through those countries and routed back into 'connected' pockets in the Beltway.

  Yeah...the accounting on a lot of that money is dubious at best.  I do think it is pretty amazing how some of the people working over in DC can be an aide to a senator/politician and still manage to hold down 3-4 other full time jobs, often as consultants making 100k+ per year from each side gig.  Very hard working those folks.

[Pat]

It's funny you bring up foreign aid as it ties into a theory I've had for a while: that foreign aid (coming out of taxpayer pockets, mind you) has been a scam in many cases, the money laundered through those countries and routed back into 'connected' pockets in the Beltway.

Are you thinking of the Clintons in Haiti?

I think that's true to a large degree, but that's because cronyism has its hands in everything. How did Biden and Pelosi get so rich? It wasn't their salaries.

But specifically regarding foreign aid, even the money that ends up on the ground and in the hands of reasonably reputable aid organizations is mostly wasted. I have friends who were involved in international humanitarian aid, and from the bribes to showing up with truckloads of supplies only to have the local mayor show up with armed guards and say "I'll take that" (hell, that sometimes happens in the US), very little gets to the people who need it. And the little that does is a pass-through, because the ruling class first took off a huge cut. Foreign aid, even with the best intentions and ostensibly for the most humanitarian of purposes, always goes to support the regime. Sending rice to North Korea just perpetuates the problem that is North Korea.

So ironically, I have less of a problem with giving countries weapons than food. It may backfire (Afghanistan anyone?), but at least it's not pretending to be anything other than an attempt to prop up/knock down a country.

[Shrieking Banshee]

I think the issue with referring to 1900 conquest theatrics, is it goes back way further.

But the game has changed. My internal problem with going "well wars always happen" is that wars where also always instigated and supported/ aided by foreign powers as well.

If you take away the moral argument, then the USA has done everything right. Russias economy is sabotaged, Putin is forever denied a willing Ukraine, bidens dealings are buried in ash, the citizens are distracted, and Ukraine foots the bill.

[oggsmash]

I think the issue with referring to 1900 conquest theatrics, is it goes back way further.

But the game has changed. My internal problem with going "well wars always happen" is that wars where also always instigated and supported/ aided by foreign powers as well.

If you take away the moral argument, then the USA has done everything right. Russias economy is sabotaged, Putin is forever denied a willing Ukraine, bidens dealings are buried in ash, the citizens are distracted, and Ukraine foots the bill.

  Oh for certain "warfare" these days is mostly winning influence with dirty money and innuendo.  Also MUCH more efficient means of spreading propaganda.   Not tanks and bombs.   And heck, once we remove the moral argument, many drug cartels down south are banging out great results from their business ventures.   I consider politicians of most nations to simply be gangsters.  My problems with any of it just do not matter.  Elections are brought up as a means of "change", but even then you get a couple choices that the powers that be vetted for you.   I guess at this point it is a race to perfect social and genetic engineering to create a more controllable human -OR- the spread of rot gets deep enough some societies collapse.  Maybe some of both. 

  And yeah Ukraine gets the bill, the thing is it is not in $$, its in blood.

[Pat]

The Western countries have just upped the ante and the Doomsday Clock is another minute closer to midnight

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/vladimir-putins-black-belt-revoked-by-international-taekwondo-organization/ar-AAUqvyR

They took away Putin's honorary 9th dan black belt.

[Ghostmaker]

It's funny you bring up foreign aid as it ties into a theory I've had for a while: that foreign aid (coming out of taxpayer pockets, mind you) has been a scam in many cases, the money laundered through those countries and routed back into 'connected' pockets in the Beltway.

Are you thinking of the Clintons in Haiti?

I think that's true to a large degree, but that's because cronyism has its hands in everything. How did Biden and Pelosi get so rich? It wasn't their salaries.

But specifically regarding foreign aid, even the money that ends up on the ground and in the hands of reasonably reputable aid organizations is mostly wasted. I have friends who were involved in international humanitarian aid, and from the bribes to showing up with truckloads of supplies only to have the local mayor show up with armed guards and say "I'll take that" (hell, that sometimes happens in the US), very little gets to the people who need it. And the little that does is a pass-through, because the ruling class first took off a huge cut. Foreign aid, even with the best intentions and ostensibly for the most humanitarian of purposes, always goes to support the regime. Sending rice to North Korea just perpetuates the problem that is North Korea.

So ironically, I have less of a problem with giving countries weapons than food. It may backfire (Afghanistan anyone?), but at least it's not pretending to be anything other than an attempt to prop up/knock down a country.

Not just the Clintons. I think a huge reason why the people keep having problems with their elected representatives is that they're already seduced by the easy money. It's like that fucking meme. 'It's free real estate!'. Except it's 'It's free money!'.

But yes. Foreign aid is prone to getting chewed apart before it even gets close to the people who need it. African nations are notorious for that shit, though it's not unique to them.

[oggsmash]

The Western countries have just upped the ante and the Doomsday Clock is another minute closer to midnight

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/vladimir-putins-black-belt-revoked-by-international-taekwondo-organization/ar-AAUqvyR

They took away Putin's honorary 9th dan black belt.

  I knew he was big into judo his whole life, but I guess that is the first time I have seen his name and TKD together.  I do not think he has ever trained even a day.  I guess that says a lot about TKD.

[Pat]

The Western countries have just upped the ante and the Doomsday Clock is another minute closer to midnight

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/vladimir-putins-black-belt-revoked-by-international-taekwondo-organization/ar-AAUqvyR

They took away Putin's honorary 9th dan black belt.

  I knew he was big into judo his whole life, but I guess that is the first time I have seen his name and TKD together.  I do not think he has ever trained even a day.  I guess that says a lot about TKD.

More seriously, I think this feels like a combination a social credit system and you don't own anything, from the Great Reset. Sanctions should be targeted and specific, not an open-ended invitation for everyone to virtue signal by dogpiling an unpopular world figure. And if you give someone an award, supposedly for some accomplishment, you shouldn't be able to take it away, for something unrelated. Awards should be for accomplishments, not contingent on social standing. Even if it is a meaningless honorary nothing.

[Mistwell]

It doesn't matter that the West says 'we have no ambitions'. The issue is that Russia thinks those ambitions are there. Regardless of the reality of things.

And that doesn't even get into the U.S.'s overseas adventurism.

   Well, I do not believe what US (and lets be honest, the USA is NATO, without the USA NATO would dissolve) says about much of anything anymore.  I can understand where Putin may not believe them either.

Because Putin has done anything to earn your benefit of the doubt? And don't whataboutism that question just answer it directly.

  I am not giving him benefit of the doubt.  I think there is zero trust on both sides of that discussion, and I can see why on both sides.  I am not making a whataboutism of anything, If the USA is the leader of the free world, the shining moral example to be followed, I just miss understanding why they shit their pants when some other country follows their example.

  People screech whataboutism  on some things where it does not apply.  This is a cause and effect situation.  You do enough things, there are going to be effects.  We are seeing effects.

We ask for an end to whataboutisms for the very reason you just demonstrated. I asked you a question about why you appeared to be giving Putin the benefit of the doubt. And I appreciate you answering it but you just couldn't help in the very next sentence mentioning what about the U.S.. For fuck's sake man, how can you not see why whataboutisms make conversations impossible when you cannot even answer that simple question without throwing one in there for no good purpose?

      It is not a whataboutism.  It is a simple measure of where is the legal line to take military action on another nations soil.  The USA has established that to be a very, very flexible line.  So it matters a whole lot in the whole discussion.  That is, unless you feel the USA is able to have a different set of rules, if you feel that, I will surely leave any USA actions out moving forward.  But if you do not establish what is a justified or unjustified invasion, you have to establish which rules we are going by.

   So, do you think the USA has a different standard for an invasion/attacking another sovereign nation than everyone else?  I need no justification or argument for your answer, and will make no argument on that one, just a yes or a no.

This ISN'T ABOUT THE U.S.. Russia didn't invade Ukraine because they felt the Iraq invasion was unjust. That in no way is their stated or implied justification for this. You want to make it about the U.S. when even Russia doesn't think this in any way is about the U.S. or anything the U.S. has done in the past. If the U.S. has behaved in an unethical, immoral, illegal, or whatever manner in the past that still plays zero role in justifying or not justifying this event. You're raising it to avoid talking about this event in some weird form of moral relativism acting like if any nation has sinned in the past then all nations can sin and not be judged for it. Which, again, makes conversation about pretty much any topic under the sun impossible.

  So I will ask again, is there one standard for everyone, or is there not?   I do not have to avoid it, as I said 3-4 pages back Putin is clearly in the wrong.  I would just like a point of view from you as to if the USA and everyone else all have the same standard.

You are welcome to one standard or many, whichever suits you. It has fuck-all to do with this topic but you're free to pick your standard and apply it as you will. I am sure you're very comfortable in your theory crafting hole, but we're all commenting on actual events happening now and it would be nice if you expressed an opinion which was more than that of a philosophy professor.

[Shrieking Banshee]

More seriously, I think this feels like a combination a social credit system and you don't own anything, from the Great Reset. Sanctions should be targeted and specific, not an open-ended invitation for everyone to virtue signal by dogpiling an unpopular world figure. And if you give someone an award, supposedly for some accomplishment, you shouldn't be able to take it away, for something unrelated. Awards should be for accomplishments, not contingent on social standing. Even if it is a meaningless honorary nothing.

I agree. This feels repulsive. This isn't much different then shit like freedom fries and texas toast.